“Size matters in politics …” — columnist Joceline Tan said in The Star today.
The four words above which I pinched as a partial quote is in the context of Saturday’s Bersih rally but we’ll come to that later.
First.
Gambar menunjukkan seekor kucing gemuk tetapi ungkapan ini mempunyai maksud yang lain juga dalam bahasa Inggeris.
Dictionary definition of ‘fat cat’ here.
Some of the past presidents of MCA do look like they’ve had a full bowl cream. Perhaps it’s their chins that give the impression.
.
The top row photos are of MCA former presidents Lee San Choon and Wanita’s Rosemary Chong.
The bottom row photos are of DAP Dear Leaders Kim Guan Eng and Hannah Yeoh.
Today, the Chinese voters are hell-bent on Jom Ubah. They want ‘change’. I guess they figure swapping Pair A politicians for Pair B politicians will be able to bring about wonderful improvements to their life (though I must say I can’t see any difference).
Now back to Joceline. Her article on Bersih 3.0 was tweeted by Cynthia Gabriel and retweeted by Hannah Yeoh.
Cynthia thinks that The Star is “getting more irrelevant” and its “readership is sure to dwindle”.
The paper featured Hannah Yeoh 646 times on its pages compared to current Wanita MCA chief Yu Chok Tow at only 177 times (see my earlier posting).
Yet despite the MCA-owned paper’s tremendous efforts to try to please readers who support the opposition by giving generous publicity to DAP politicians – coming at the expense of MCA’s own people – all this is apparently not enough.
Those Star editors who are Hannah Twitter fans should seriously consider doubling, if not tripling their coverage of the DAP media darling so that the 44,400-strong Twitter following of the Subang Jaya Adun might, god willing, develop more positive feelings towards The Star and buy the paper for her pictures.
Twitterjaya talks in the language of lurrve
Anyways, Cynthia found Joceline Tan’s article to be “superficial lousy”.
And Hannah evidently feels that this critique should be passed on and disseminated to her Twitter flock.
Hannah also retweeted Gan Pei Ling’s question as to whether Joceline was really present at the Bersih 3.0 rally. Just in case you’re wondering who Pei Ling is, well … she’s a Selangor Times reporter.
The photo below shows her receiving a mock cheque for a ‘journalism award’ from Ng Wei Aik who is Guan Eng’s political secretary.
Pei Ling’s tweet got a rejoinder from Peng Tuck who said that Joceline only imagined that she was at the rally.
Yeah, yeah. We all know that Hannah Yeoh was at the rally as her Twitpic was taken from a hotel room (see my previous posting) in the vicinity of the action.
Hannah’s retweets on the Joceline Bersih article shared the view that because Joceline is with the mainstream media, there’s no need to say anything more – “enough said” – the fact speaks for itself about her journalism standard.
Another tweeter on Hannah’s thread declared that he/she has since learned to skip the paper’s pages in which Joceline’s article appears because reading Joceline’s analysis pisses off this person (who calls himself/herself ‘Seez the Evil’).
[This individual who is so well able to see “the evil” in others is likely another evangelist Christian like Hannah, methinks].
As the DAPsters like to remind us time and again, their side is full of goodness, light and lurrve. It shows indeed in their Twitter conversation.
But perhaps you should not just take their word for it. Instead read Joceline’s article today for yourself. It is titled ‘A big crowd — and big problems‘.
[I always look out for Joceline’s column as she’s on my must-read staple diet. In fact no one else in that paper comes close to engaging my rapt attention.]
An excerpt. Joceline wrote:
“The Government agreed to all but one of the eight demands made by Bersih.
“But as some have pointed out, Bersih has since “shifted the goal posts” and imposed new demands and conditions, including the resignation of the current Election Commission leadership. These conditions were the basis for Saturday’s show of force. …
“It was quite apparent that Ambiga had made up her mind that the EC could not be trusted and the group demanded nothing less than the resignation of the EC chairman and its other officials.
“It is unclear how the impasse between Bersih and the Government will play out from now till the general election.
“The perception is that Bersih’s objectives of clean and fair elections have extended to regime change.”
Regime change boils down to exchanging one set of wonderful pollies for another. So why not, eh? Ditch Najib for the safe pair of hands below.
Related:
Helen Ang 
Jum ubah to BN would be more appropriate now, with their true color seen which Bersih has cleanly exposed to us all.
I have read joceline article, accessible in the star webpage, very excellent article as always and pragmatic and cautionary for both side of the divide….it is sad the daft bangsar malaysian cannot read beyond fairy tale level paragraphs where one side like them are always the good side and the other side are the forces of evil..
http://thestar.com.my/columnists/more.asp?col=joceline
It’s confirmed now that these bersih supporters are traitors to the county. I want to see how many of them will run away and leave Malaysia if foreign troops are come and take over the government and make Malaysia one of the countries ruined by infighting and madmen, just like Iraq.
I believe the government must not give any face or chance to these bersih rascals. Otherwise there is a danger people like me will take over the government and by then Pakatan will see their fates sealed. No more democracy, no more kid glove treatment, *** [edited].
Helen,
What the Chinese want is basically doing away with the bumiputra preference, so that all Malaysians would be seen as Malaysians, and competing on level playing field for their place in the country.
Why they are supporting Pakatan is because of the ‘ketuanan rakyat’ concept first mooted by PKR as against ‘ketuanan melayu’ which was championed by Umno. More significantly, the ‘ketuanan rakyat’ concept was advanced by the Malay segment of the society, and they see hope in their quest for a Malaysian Malaysia, said to be a Dap idea.
Added with Dap seen as the anchor in Pakatan at the expense of PKR and PAS, the Chinese will definitely bet their money on Pakatan to champion their place in the Malaysian society, no matter how much promises the BN govt is giving them, including monies for Chinese schools.
The Chinese do not see MCA as an equal partner to Umno in BN, only as a yes-man and a towkay club, and they can’t see how MCA can play an effective role in that respect, having seen the record for the last 50 years.
Problem is, the Chinese cause is primarily championed on the platform of economics, and little on the platforms of history and culture, where history and culture, including religion, play a significant role in the shaping of the Malay mind and psychology, and about the way they see things.
If the Chinese think that by supporting Pakatan their cause can be achieved, they may find that may be a problem because PAS is definitely not going to give in on a Malaysian identity bent solely on economics. Kelantan is a case in point. PAS strategy, for now, is simple. Work with Dap even if you don’t like them. Get to Putrajaya first, then the showdown will begin and we’ll see who’s boss.
Thanks for your analysis Allen. It’s certainly a reasonable & to me a correct reading of the situation yet the DAPsters fail to see this.
(1) The Chinese can just dream on b’cos their Pakatan bible the Buku Jingga says absolutely nothing about doing away with the bumiputra preference & neither has DAP ever mentioned that it would either — talking about the changed DAP since 2008 when the Jom Ubah party transformed itself (first).
(2) What is DAP’s ‘Malaysian Malaysia’ really in nuts & bolts and who else among the rest of the country (who are non-Chinese) are buying the DAP First sloganeering?
(3) I agree with the general Chinese sentiment about MCA’s unequal standing wrt Umno & Chinese marginalized in terms of access to govt programmes. I will even agree that DAP is, for the moment, the anchor in Pakatan in terms of electoral strength.
Nonetheless, whatever DAP’s standing be it triple A or A- or B+ within Pakatan, they have not shown any sincerity in looking after the interests of, or in helping the Chinese community.
Take e.g. the publicity-crazy Hannah Yeoh is not photographed at Chinese religious events (that I can find in a Net image search). Granted, there’s the excuse that Christians eschew Taoist/Buddhist activities. But then how does this explain all her tudung-ed photos in the various mosques & suraus?
I concur with your last two paragraphs. The Chinese supporting Pakatan are in their syiok sendiri world quite failing to realise they’re going to land themselves in 1970 all over again, i.e. the state of the country viz. govt direction after the results of the 1969 general election.
Helen you forgot the communist ,anti kerajaan tag line the chinese had to endure during the Emergency period. It is now making a come back. Remember the tag wore off after the communist surrender.
Look at the former IGP Tan Seri Hannif (in malaysia today)take on the current political scenario.
I had always wonder before where these diehard commie went after their disbandment . Now i can see communist tactic now being used under DAP banners, the diehards are now in charge of running the chauvinist agenda of the DAP.
So “The Chinese supporting Pakatan are in their syiok sendiri world quite failing to realise they’re going to land themselves in 1970 all over again, i.e. the state of the country viz. govt direction after the results of the 1969 general election.” will come true, slowly but surely.
I think that most people are ignorant or naively optimistic about democracy. Democracy is not about being ‘fair’ in the truest sense of the word. It’s about trying to be fair, and not ever succeeding.
Remember Churchill’s famous statement: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”
There are always going to be back room deals in democracies. That’s the democratic negotiation process. Even western countries hire consultants to cut up districts to reflect the ‘perceived’ political affiliations of member, not the actual political voting pattern of the area. That’s the fact of gerrymandering.
There is a reason why voting is supposed to be a secret process. It’s so that people won’t be punished for their perceived political preferences.
Voting helps people feel empowered. It’s just a ‘feeling’ and it won’t change anything overnight.
Now, these DAPsters want to show their political colors, which coincidentally is yellow and mimics their skin color.
Imagine had those DAP supporters truly understood the political process that is democracy, they would have kept to themselves. By being civil and discreet, they may still have the support of the silent and hidden Malay supporters like my father. I think my father is now changing his view towards DAP after seeing them shout in the streets.
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“view towards DAP after seeing them shout in the streets”. I thought the skirmishes with the authorities (i.e. ‘rempuh’ & other acts) were carried out by Malays? — Helen
Possible also that the Chinese wants to create an Alibaba country.
Nothing is impossible leh.
There was a metallic state like that once
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‘Metallic state’ … cute, esp the connection to David’s infamous name-calling. — Helen
thanks for highlighting the racist act, do u applaud what the white american did? do u know that in 2011, the us senate passed a resolution apologizing for past discriminatory actions?
so how? bila ko ni mahu bertaubat?
“Even western countries hire consultants to cut up districts to reflect the ‘perceived’ political affiliations of member, not the actual political voting pattern of the area. That’s the fact of gerrymandering.”
I presume western contries include US the A. Here is what i read from one American:
“In the US, we proportion delegates in two different ways. The number of Congressmen is based on population, if you have ten times more people you have ten times more Congressmen. This type of proportional representation is updated every ten years after the national census. However, the founding fathers were concerned about a “tyranny of the majority” so they created a Senate where each State would have two senators. In this body, Wyoming with a population of 563,000 has the same number of Senators as California with a population of 37,000,000. That’s a huge disparity and some have suggested the States be realigned to get the numbers closer together but I doubt that will ever happen. The end result is that Congress tends to reflect current sentiment which changes rapidly while the Senate slows everything down. Each branch has different responsibilities and in some cases, those responsibilities overlap.
No system is perfect, but the USA political system (or to be exact the election system under democracy) were developed in such a way to reduce gerrymandering. This is the fact.
The Malays who demonstrated in the streets were never politically mature, in fact quite the opposite, they were the most emotional and prone to violence among the Malays.
, In terms of proportion,Malays don’t participate politically and take things for granted. The Chinese have always been more politically active . Now more than ever (except probably when brought brooms and made gestures of their ‘clean sweep’ back in ’69 , when you know what happened) they are showing their political activism that does not befit their proportions in the population. And they do it publicly.
The purpose of most street protests is to bring to the attention of the general public your group’s dissatisfaction . It was a method created before the internet to get visibility and your voice heard. That was when newspapers were controlled and there was no such thing as the internet.
I think street demonstrations are a thing of the past.
The fact that bersih 3 is generally attended by the chinese shows that it is because they have grouses. They should come out and say what their problems with malaysia and malays are.
This is my first time given comments in Helen Ang’s space.I am sorry, if it is too long.
I am an avid student of Sino Malay relationships in Malaysia and within the Malay archipelago. I wonder how many of us bother to track the Malay Chinese conflicts and wonder why these conflicts happened?. Can we get some lessons and parallels in order for the future generation to avoid from making the same mistakes and thus preventing the same history (conflicts) to happen again as said by the Spanish philisopher “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
For a start, Chinese and native conflicts happened world-wide.It was not limited in Malaysia!. It happened in America (the so – called bastion of democracy), Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Philiipines and also Malaysia.After all the sino native conflicts, the results were all similar, disastrous to the Chinese. In America, after the Chinese massacre in 1871, the Americans discriminated the Chinese via the “Chinese Exclusion Act’ from 1882-1943. They repeaed the Act because of World War2 and USA need allies to fight the Japanese.
In Malaysia, there were 4 major conflicts between the Chinese and the Malays/Native:-
1. Lukut Massacre -1834
2. Bau Chinese Rebellion -1857
3. Perang 14 hari Kiyai Salleh – 1945
4. 13th May Tragedy – 1969
Please google the above to understand the context of the conflicts. In my observation the above Sino/Malay conflicts in Malaysia happened because the Chinese had started it. The Malays and the natives were only reacting to the aggressiveness of the Chinese.
All four conflicts started when a group of Chinese, presume rich, powerful and organised had started to disturb the status quo.
In 1969, the DAP were poisoining the Chinese that they were third class citizen because of the special priveleges enshrined in the constitution to the bumiputera even though it was a fact that Chinese control the economy and 70% of division A in the civil services were also controlled by them. Due to these mind poisoning, the Chinese were brainwashed to hate the Malays. After the 1969 election, DAP won some few seats and in the winning procession led by DAP, they hustled and abuse the Malays in Kuala Lumpur. The Malays responded and “May 13 tragedy” happened. Please bear in mind that DEB was only introduced in the 1970s. Please read Jebat Must Die ‘s article on the May 13 tragedy to get a better perspective..
Do you find similar parallels in 2012. See the tactics adopted by DAP. Demonising UMNO as “racists” and misrepresented “Ketuanan Melayu” . After all, it was these “racist” UMNO that had negotiated for full citizen for the Chinese, allow vernacular schools and Chinese language to spread, sacrifice Malays majority seats for the Chinese in order for them to represented in the government. I believe that UMNO will not be called “racist” if they had adopted the “Chinese Exclusion Act” as American did, forced single language school as the Thais and the Indonesians.
In any life eco system, I believe there need to be a balance.If you are too powerful in one aspect, e.g politics and economy, something (Maybe GOD’s intervention) will happen to make the ecosystem to balance again. For eg; if the bumiputera priveleges were lost and there will be many more unemployed Malays and in the end they become Mat Rempits don’t you think they will disrupt the balance again .
My advice to the Chinese is only one. Bersyukurlah dengan apa yang ada.
Dear goondoo,
I am happy to engage you on this, but let me put aside the historical details first. There are far more incidents than the four you mentioned, as Sino-Malay relationship in pre-Independent Malaya has been studied extensively by the likes of Purcell, Comber, and Swettenham.
It must be remembered that it was more peaceful in the early days because the Chinese were primarily traders and temporary migrants, at least they started out that way. Those who settled here are very small in number, and many of them adopted local customs, culture and religion. The trouble of containment becomes larger when the local Chinese community starting growing rapidly at the turn of the 19th century. Following the colonial and Malay polity’s original practice of letting the Chinese governing themselves, the autonomy created pockets of sinocentric conclaves, except these Chinatowns began to acquire real economic power.
I must point out that there is not only a likelihood that the Malays might be overrun by the more powerful Chinese elites, but I consider that as a certainty had the Constitution not laid down the compact.
Goondoo is looking at the acts of physical violence perpetrated by mobs, but the real cause lies elsewhere. The danger is not that your average Chinese or Malay will go beserk and start rioting on a bright Sunday morning. I doubt the Malays youth that came out on 28th of April were trying to send a message to the Chinese elite. I think the Malay elite as embodied by UMNO is in trouble because the greed of a few have tainted the socio-political dynamics in this country.
I think lessons from history are not helpful if the intention is to find out who started it or who threw the first punch, you know, to play the blame game. It invariably becomes esoteric generalizations and stereotypes of the nature of a certain race, as if the Malays or Chinese in Malaysia are a homogenous lot. As we learn from each bloody clashes, big or small, we must realize that the triggers to such lawless events cannot absolve or justify the acts of violence, period. People cannot take justice into their own hands, and the lynch mob mentality is a very dangerous thing once unleashed.
Thanks I-hate-N’Sync for highlighting that “the lynch mob mentality is a very dangerous thing once unleashed”.
I can also point out a few incidents of the lynch mob in action in cyberspace, i.e. against Tony Yew, Ceylyn Tay, Jessie Ooi, Anas Zubedy & most recently Tunku Aziz. They were perpetrated by Firsters & DAPsters.
On the opposite side of the fence, the lynching of Namewee although the difference is that Tony, Ceylyn, Jessie, Anas & the Tunku do not use foul & provocative words.
What the Firsters & DAPsters fail to realise is that their incessant incitement & heightening the tensions have been translated to the rowdiness and rioting seen at the DJZ rally & Bersih 3.0.
They bear part of the responsibility for the ugly mood & climate on the street.
If the angry mob can attack police today, what makes Firsters & DAPsters think that the mob sentiment cannot easily be turned against the Chinese as an easy scapegoat & target in future?
wrong thread, re-paste.for goondoe (helen pls delete the previous if necessary)
thanks for highlighting the racist act, do u applaud what the white american did? do u know that in 2011, the us senate passed a resolution apologizing for past discriminatory actions?
so how? bila ko ni mahu bertaubat?
Hi Hua Yong;
It is not important whether I support “Chinese Exclusion Act” as implemented by the Americans from 1882-1943.
Most Malaysians will like to know your view on this Act. Is this a racist act? This act allow the white Americans to discriminate the Chinese, Prevent the Chinese from breeding, force you to live in a controlled ghettos, prevent you from bringing your loved one and forced you to live a slightly better life than slavery.
Compare this against the Malays treatment of Chinese immigrants.Allow you to prosper, to organise, to practise your own religion, culture and language,allow you to bring your loved ones from China, allow you to form triads, allow you to bring some sins to the Malay peninsula;drugs, gambling, prostitution, Ah long, gangsterism etc.
Tell us loudly Hua Yong,If you compare the American treatment towards the Immigrants in USA versus the Malay treatment of Immigrants in Peninsular Malaysia. Which one is the most racist?
If u want my honest answer, i think the american is more racist and that is why i label the act as racist act, and i think the Malay is hmmm….less racist? lol.
sorry i dun know how to reply, sorry my bad hahahaha.
Hua Yong;
Thank you for your honest feedback. Appreciate if you can publicise this to your DAP friends.
The Chinese outside need to know the truth..
dear goondoo,
no problem. :)
Wow! A mature discussion – something you won’t find on DAP blogs or PR news sites.
I wanted to ask everyone this: if there is a public option to ‘opt out’ of bumi privilege, do you think that the govt should allow or even promote it?
In my opinion, no. The issue is not about bumi privilege, it’s about chinese privilege. Let me illustrate.
Take the issue of property (houses/condos). I have gone through the process several times — buying property, settling housing loans and renting property out . In a majority of cases, I had to deal with chinese lawyers, chinese loan officers , or chinese agents etc. Only on rare occasions I met malays who helped me.
I tell you this: in the majority of cases the chinese charged me more.
I may have gotten a bumi discount on the properties that I have. But in the long run, I think I lost that advantage. The chinese agents charged me more, the chinese contractors charged me more, the chinese loan officers charged me more and I suspect the chinese lawyers also made things really difficult and effectively charged me more. One chinese lawyer purposely filed my papers late and I was charged massive interest rates due to delays in loan disbursements. When I complained, the partner of the law firm (chinese of course) threatened me with a letter of demand.
So, if the Chinese in Malaysia (Helen included) feel that NEP is unfair then we need to address the MCEP (malaysian chinese economic policy). MCEP doesn’t promote ‘ ‘fairness’ and ‘democracy’. Although chinese love money, they don’t follow TRUE CAPITALISM. In true capitalism, a person would seek the most profit regardless of the circumstance or the person he/she deals with.
When I ask my chinese friends, they tell me they get good prices on many things. Of course they don’t mention that the advantage they gain is from their own chinese merchants or traders or agents.
Some examples:
Air con servicing by Chinese contractor
Chinese friend– <RM100 per air con (reason: her friend was starting the air con servicing biz)
Me — RM200 per air con (reason: different chinese contractor came, and he claimed my air con really dirty)
Property quote (condo in Damansara Perdana owned by chinese)
Me– RM 350k
Chinese friend — RM 250k (she bought it. She said that guy was chinese migrating to Oz, so was trying to get rid quick).
Rent Agent
Malay agent – 1 month commission, zero contract fee (international real estate company policy)
Chinese agent – 1 month commission, RM 400 contract processing fee (chinese real estate company policy).
When i raise these issues to chinese friends they say:
-Why you so bad at negotiating?
-Your bad luck.
-See it's because of govt corruption!
The last one is most disingenuous. It's blaming the government for the corruption among the chinese community.
BTW, all I write above is true, and it happened to me within the past year alone.
I know that chinese readers would claim favorable business dealings happen among the malay elite. But, i want to point out that unfair economic advantage is a LOT more prevalent between chinese-malay business transactions. The chinese , at least in my experience, do charge different rates to different people.
Dear Overseas Bumi,
Perhaps it is time to form your non-Chinese economic bubble? I noticed that in defence of special priviledges and preferences accorded to the Malays and other Bumiputeras, the Chinese is often used as the rationale. No wonder the Indians felt abused and trapped for no good reason.
I actually think that the matter here is a sense of entitlement, not abolition of special treatment. I suspect many average Chinese Malaysians want to get that discount and special treatment, not doing away with it. I think that’s the current mentality, they want to enjoy the same perks from the Government, to which they also paid taxes.
This is the problem here, while you are justifying institutional racism against racism in business / trade, the Big Mac we buy costs exactly the same. You gave examples in legal services, auto sales / repair and also real estate. I am wondering, are you compelled to buy from all these racist bastards? You are damn right to feel cheated if your mechanic charges you differently just because you are a Malay, although I suspect many charge people differently by the depth of their customer’s pockets. Bargain, demand or just walk away next time. You might pay more for a Malay or non-racist dealer, but at least your principles stay intact, no? It is like when everyone is giving and taking bribes, it does not mean you have to.
I think the Chinese businessmen charge more whenever they can, including to Indians, ang-mohs (orang puteh) or men (at least in my personal experience, depending on the goods and services). That’s why we need laws people, that’s why we have price tags, and that’s why we must negotiate before forking out any cash or credit card for payment. When you pay, you accepted that price agreed upon as willing buyer, willing seller. Don’t start screaming bloody racist when you found out that the other guy got a cheaper rate. For major purchases that require negotiations, I always send someone else to do it. I don’t even know how to haggle.
Btw, do look up the term “price discrimination”. or “price differentiation”. Charging different prices to different customers is more common than you think.
ob, r u sure u r in the right thread? the discussion here is about who were the most racist :)
HateN’Sync/ Hua Yong,
i will try to address both of you at once.
NSync, I don’t know what you mean by a non-Chinese economic bubble. Are u referring to NEP as a market bubble, growing and growing and inevitably bursting? Then the term ‘bubble’ is incorrect. A bubble suggests that there is rapid growth and a spontaneous burst. Malay economic growth has been gradual and stable, I think. It’s DAP and antiNEP supporters who want to ‘burst’ it.
I admit NEP probably doesn’t allow the ‘market forces’ or the ‘invisible hand’ to regulate the market. Objectivist and pure market capitalist will always argue against regulation of any sort. You should read economic books by nobel prize winners like Stiglitz or Krugman who disagree with those views.
Malaysia has instituted a way to adjust the market through regulation so that a disadvantaged party has a chance to succeed. This concept is affirmative action which happpens to be based on race. Don’t call it institutionalised racism, which is a dysphemism.
Indians, in my opinion, do deserve a form of affirmative action. However, I question if it is necessary. As I explained in a previous posting, the Indian culture and work ethic (if properly channeled) is compatible with the chinese style of doing business and work.
Some examples: both indians and chinese can and do engage in closer social interaction (eg alcoholic drinking); both can readily adjust their religious beliefs to conform to western norms (more so than malays, IMO); both can share a feeling of ‘victimhood’ being a minority under a politically dominant malay population.
Helen and maybe both of you will point out the situation of the hardcore poor indian rubber tapper or indian laborer. I argue that help is coming for those laborers.
The establishment of a minimum wage alone will help the poor indian laborers. In some cases their wages might even double! Isn’t that a form of ‘affirmative action’? If a majority who benefit from wage increase are indians wouldn’t that affirmative action take a ‘racial’ dimension?
If i were a businessman (was once, not anymore) i would be really pissed off at the govt for the establishment of such an anti-market, minimum wage law.
Also as a upper middle class citizen (ok maybe I am in the top 1%, given that I don’t pay taxes on my significant pay), I would be annoyed that I have to share more of my company’s revenue with the masses in the field or factory floor. I would like it to be concentrated among managers and executives like me.
I would argue that my work is MORE important, and I contribute A LOT more than an average laborer. I leverage my skills and I deserve more . I get paid by market forces, and so should the poor laborers. Engineers/doctors/ lawyers/journalists don’t get a ‘minimum wage’ for their level of expertise. There is no law saying that with 15 years experience I should be making XX,XXX RM.
If you think clearly, my example is similar to the line of reasoning used by the Chinese against NEP.
Price unfairness
I argue that Big Macs are commodity items. They have standard prices and they have healthy competition against the likes of Burger King.
However, when it comes to some services, the Chinese dominate and they easily set prices according to their bias and dominance in that niche industry.
Take your example of car servicing.Go to Ah Chong Car Servicing, they probably can say many thing — your water pump not good la, your tyre thread looks worn, your engine mounts need replacement. How would I know if he is correct given I am not a car expert? Although they have a price table for servicing parts, they can easily dupe customers into servicing parts that don’t need servicing. Conversely, they can help chinese customers by telling them to service only parts truly deserving replacement or repair.
As a Malay, i could go to another car service company. But it may be Ah Beng Car Repair that is the next closest. He also does the same thing. The nearest Malay mechanic is 20 km away. So, in that instance I am already disadvantaged.
The act of dominant economic players who engage in price fixing and practice discriminatory pricing is economic collusion, and economists know this happens. N’Sync should admit this happens in any society. But more so among chinese in malaysia to help their community. This issue has to be addressed before NEP is lifted .
This is starting to look like an academic discussion, and I am sure neither I or you are capable of resolving these economic issue. But, let me give one more example: we should just look at how Indian currency traders work. They (indian muslims) dominate that business. But they provide one good service — they exchange currency at a cheaper price than banks. This service is simple. It can’t be compared with other, more complicated services where the chinese dominate and tend to discriminate, such as technical services, administrative services, legal and fiduciary services.
It takes time for affirmative action to change things. NEP still is needed.
OB
“But more so among chinese in malaysia to help their community.”
i doubt this would happen in any business world btw a seller and buyer, since i already state my opinion on this issue, to each his own.
generally I am okay with affirmation action for the poor. would continue on the nep topic later.
Dear OB,
My quarrel was never with the NEP. In fact, without it, we would be in serious hot soup atm. My basic contention is that there is a price to stick to your principles. We know what the problems are with a free market economy, and we know we are hampering its efficiency in the name of social reengineering. That’s why taxes should be progressive, some kind of mechanism is needed to narrow the wealth gap. Stability is more important than dominance.
NEP can stand on its own without demonizing Chinese businessmen. May I point out to you many salesmen would fleece everyone they can, including their own mother if necessary. The aim of a businessman is to help you part with your money for his goods, that alone speak volumes about the criterion of a successful businessman, not an ethical one. I am not saying all businessmen (or women) are evil, they just want to make a profit. The desired size of the profit, however…. that’s another story folks.
So, before you continue with why NEP is needed to defend Malays against unscrupulous and unethical Chinese businessmen, I put it to you that NEP is needed to protect the have nots against dominant business entities. Its implementation was race-based because at that time it was a convenient marker. Today, we can afford to fine-tune that marker because we see that a race-based approach did not made much difference for the elites who figured out all kinds of ways to beat the system, including Ali-Baba ones.
I was at Penang BERSIH as an observer and the crowd was 99% Chinese and at the KL event they were at least 50%. I heard it was reported that in Melaka, JB and elsewhere the Chinese consisted of around 60 to 95% of the crowd too. And of this, a vast majority was Christian too.
So, Helen,the million ringgit question here is are we seeing a seismic shift in Malaysian politics ? Are the Chinese no longer happy with their role as kingmaker but rather the king themselves? Has the fundamentalist Christians groups led by the likes of Empress of Subang Jaya and the Righteous Sister Hannah, are dominating the political discourse in the country and aiming to take over the nation ?
Are these groups (or rather groupies), instead of spreading brotherly love instead spraying deathly hate via the internet and the pulpit ?
I was talking to some of my Malay friends and they have noted these trends. Many of those educated and urban Malays who previously tended to dismiss Perkasa’s and Hassan Ali’s alarmist accusations against Christian groups are now say there could be some truth in it.
I heard from some of my KL relatives, almost every major Church in Klang Valley had sent groups to BERSIH officially, These groups were sponsored by the Church and led by the pastors themselves.
Wah, no joke, a vast majority are Christians, you say? How did you manage to find out their religion? Did you manage to interview each or every one of the protestors on their religion? Was it written on their faces or did they wear it on their bosoms?Or maybe if there were barriers for different religions, I didn;t see them ( I was there too).
Sally,
It doesn’t take much to know their religion. Most of the Chinese there were from the Bangsar Brigade or the Subang Jaya Squad, which means a majority of them are Christians. That the Church groups being a major organizer adds to this statistics.
Your vague qurst for equality as always is always vague, the reality not all people have a level playing field…the malays with degrees get smaller salary in the private sector because the chinese boss thinks the malays can live on less…and this mentality of the malays should have less than the chinese is the driving force for your mindless quest to end the NEP which regardless of the positive discrimination against the non bumi have seen the politocal minorities holding significant economic power and monopoly which ironically thanks to political tethers with UMNO which allow them to redistribute wealth amongs their own cronies and famiiy members(read business dynasty) in the private sector which is true within the businesslike chinese community..which ironically contrary to the mythical meritocracy perpetuated by the anti NEP forces.despite the NEP,UMNO has been more than willing to concede in certain areas to accommodate the non bumi, as recently Najib promises scholarships and acccess to matriculation colleges and more funding for chinese schools….i believe a better chinese/non bumi representation could augur more mutual benefts between the bumis and non bumis.
Secondly,an equal malaysian will require a homogeneous society which isnot possible as the non malays make more than 40 percentwhich have diferent culture,religion and languages and both sides refuse tipo assimilate to one another,but this demography is shifting fast as the birth rates of bumis is twice of that of the chinese/indians,therefore the social,political wnd economic landscape will take up a malay character. Read,quoting hishamh from economics malaysia, median income of middle class malays is now at 72 percent that of the chinese and already surpassed the indians, average incime of middle class malays have increased about rm1500 while median income of the chinese actually dropped rm800 in the last decade which is thanks to inequality between middle class and the rich chimese…which is why MCA is losing chinese votes too due to insecurity…this means that collectively the malays are the biggest contributor to the country’s gdp because malays are a large chunk of the 10 million work force, the chinese are 8 million, minus the children and elderly, probably about 3-5 million working chinese as oppose to the 6-8 million working malays, which is reflected by the rm200 billion malay equity in PNB and tabung haji and this do not include their monies in EPF and other trust funds like LTAT and KWAP.my point, the chinese anglophiles and conservatives chinese must attempt to embrace the reality of the malay polity rather than demanding them to become anglophile or totally ignore the malays by confining yourselves to your chinese enclaves..cant the chinese treat the malays as equals first or at least respect us…the malays may not be too accommodating because in several decades, malay dependancy on chinese as employers and economic intermediates will diminish and they will not care about your demands once the chinese population drops below 20 percent…remember how PNB sent ripples when it tried to forcibly buy the chinese owned SP Setia?…that is how the malays can play around with their collective wealth guided by professional Malays bankers in a GLC like PNB…the chinese i believe will still hold monopolies in certain economic sectors but by then, they cannot make any more demands in the political realm if the enmity between the malays and chinse is allowed to continue under DAP tyranny.
forrestcat, if u wish to quote hisham, don’t u think u shd also tell us most of his suggestion and solution is not race base but class base?
I am not expert in economics but i have great interest in economics and its impact in society, from my summary of reading economics malaysia which is an excellent blog, hishamh believs in empowering the lower class or reducing inequality by providing the lower class with equity and asset because the lower class are trapped in a cycle of poverty because they do not have assers while the rich have capital and assets that works to give them dividends and passive income. That is why while people complain that epf is stealing money for the dbkl house financing, hishamh sees it as a transfer of asset to the lower class.imo,NEP does address the class divide which in malaysia takes up a racial profile, you can imagine in 1970 malays that make up 40 percent ofbthe population owns only 1.6 percent of the nation equity while the indians who are 10 percent owns 1 percent while the chinese who then were almost 40 percent of the population owns 22 percent.the nep address this through felda scheme,asnb trust funds and even bumi discount for homes which aims to transfer assets and equity nto the hands of the lower class bumis while skewing education to pull the bumis out their static economic roles from the colonial eras…of course the nep have flaws especially int implementatiom, but nep is neither a success nor is it a failure from an economic perspective but it certainly had its benefits and negative impacts.
forrestcat, me too have poor grip on econ, and that is the reason i read hisham from time to time, he clarify and enlighten us on many absurd view churn out from both end. i believe most of us that support pr are not againt nep, likewise to what u have written, we despise implementation that is flaw not according to the earlier spirit during inception. to me personally, the most ugly part to perpetuate the policy make us stereotype each other to the extent some feel they are more superior in economic sense which is not true, simply because the policy is race base in nature, i think that is bad.
That is why the real solution is in narrowing the gap between the haves and have nots, not race-based solutions.
OB,
I believe NEP did achieve many of the objectives, but I have reservation on the effectiveness in the long run to narrow the gap, and I think hisham is right when he wrote “rationalize” pertaining to subsidy.
You raise some interesting questions, do most Chinese charge different rates to different people? Base on my experience, yes. Is discrimination on rates only prevalent among the Chinese? I think not, this is a matter of scale. Do most Chinese discriminate base on race? Yes and no, allow me to explain, yes because most Chinese were cultivated since young the habit to haggle, and even memorise the pricing from different store and pick the cheapest, we call this “kiasu”. I however notice Malay emphasize more on services, trust and relationship but not on pricing, thus base on this understanding, most Chinese use different sales tactic when dealing with their customer, generally they know Chinese customer stress more on pricing while Malay customer concern is on services and sales talk.
Most good sales rep are observant to body language, and build in a thought process in analysing question raised, in order to find out if you are genuine buyer, and a measurement of calculated risk in term of pricing. I think this has much to do with experience and custom, not to stereotype but I notice there are more Chinese that capture the essence on how to close sales, but this tactic can be acquired by anyone, just so happen that in Malaysia, there are more Chinese that engage in business compare to others due to historical reason.
But does all these tactic work in a global environment? I don’t think so.
SP Setia is not chinese owned, rather originally Chinese company. Once floated, the PNB and friendly parties owned majority of the shares, but they did not control the company.
Big hu ha happened when PNB want to took private SP Setia.
Same thing with the Pelangi Group. When PNB took over as the majority share holder after buying over Tengku Osman major shares in the Pelangi group of companies. The negative feed back because it was seen as a Malay take over of a chinese company.
Dear Ahmad Ibrahim and Forrestcat,
I think all non-Malays should continue to dream for a more equal and just Malaysia. Of course, many Malays would rather the non-Malays pack-up and leave. I mean, it is the mentality and the psychology. Many Malays still think that they are the native Americans of Malaysia. Equality and equity becomes emotionally charged words.
Hakikatnya, ramai orang Melayu masih menganggap orang bukan Melayu itu pendatang and orang asing, dahulu, kini dan selama-lamanya.
How can we become equal when the malays themselves are looked down in scorn and abused in the internet/malaysiakini comments section and djscriminated againts ironically in the private sector…the malay anger is a newtonian reaction of the non malay hostility and some may say obscene hatred towards the malays…but it took a great force before the malays would exert am opposite and equal reaction…maybe seeking that mythical equality was the wrong objective in the first place.
I cannot imagine it is wrong to dream of equality or equity. We cannot do much about abuses online, the traffic goes out in all directions, just like how there are bigots everywhere. There is, however, something that could be done about discrimination by race in both the public and private sector. Two wrongs do not make a right.
The Chinese are just dreaming a wet dream. Just yesterday, Hadi Awang had explicitly mentioned that If Pakatan comes to power, they will amend the Federal Constitution and replace Islam as the Federal Religion to Islam as Addin.
Addin = a way of life.
A way of life. Let’s see. How about first we abolish the civil courts, and allow only the Syariah courts to exist? Now that would be a first step to making Islam a way of life. Oh wait hold on, the Dear Leader and His Family now ruling the Hermit Kingdom of Pinang say “oi awang, apa lu cakap ni? You tau tak apa you cakap tadi boleh takutkan orang Cina. Nanti dia orang tak undi kita. Susah nanti oh.
You see yet again the hypocrisy. When Pas talks about the Islamic state, the rulers of the Hermit Kingdom in Pinang stays quiet.
Helen, the Chinese are not going to land themselves in 1970 yet again. On the contrary, they will land themselves in Lebanon prior 1975. Remember the 1975-1990 Lebanese civil war? But we’re not going to have a civil war here in Malaysia. But we’re going to have a Muslim-Chinese divide, which plays nicely into the hands of the Extremists of the religious divides. And for that, I would like to say thanks to the DAP and their Dapsters for a job well done.
JIka Malaysia berjaya diubah menjadi negara theokrasi, pihak yang ternyata akan menanggung rugi yang paling besar adalah masyarakat Cina.
Tetapi tidak menggapa. Yang boleh hijrah ke negara lain, ini bukan masalah besar. Yang kaya-raya boleh melarikan diri bila-bila masa sahaja. Golongan professional pula, lihat Singapura. Di Singapura, peluang menanti anda kalau anda mampu ke sana. Yang sudah ada saudara-mara di luar negara, tak perlu bimbang, kamu juga boleh melarikan diri. Don’t worry.
Now back to those majority Chinese syiok sendiri type, You can continue with your wet dreams. But get this right. Only in the wet dreams, you’re not going to be the person on top. You’re going to be the person below. Know what I mean ? Ok now, you can get back to your wet dreams.
In the spirit on who is on top, please, do try different positions from time to time, ok? Try to understand what it is like on top and below and sideways and what not.
Inter-ethnic relations is not made on dominant-submissive analogies. The original premise is already flawed.
“The Bersih monkeys have no intention of behaving in a civilised maner at all. Liwat is going to lose the elections. This morning I spoke to Kedah people who say that Liwat will even lose in Permatang Punai. So he is planning to move to a Chinese majority seat in Penang. Isnt that a joke?
This is the end of the Pakatan. They are already pre planning for their post election chaos.
Once they lose the elections they are going to accuse the EC, UMNO, the Gomen, Rosmah Mansor, Upin and Ipin, the girl in the latest bathroom video and maybe Mat Taib’s English teacher as well for conspiring to rig the elections. Then they will riot in the streets again.
The Bersih monkeys need to explain something : if the elections are not fair, then how do you explain that PAS has ruled Kelantan for 20 years?
And why did Perak have to go through so much drama to change the Gomen from the Pakatan to the BN? Why not just empty a few gunny sacks of phantom votes and kill the Pakatan’s chances once and for all?
How did the Lembu Condo woman lose to Liwat’s daughter? Why not just empty a few more gunny sacks of phantom votes and kill Liwat’s daughter’s political career as well? Apa dah? Ini macam kah want to rig the elections?
What kind of vote rigging is this?
You let PAS rule Kelantan for 20 years. I mean couldnt UMNO have rigged the elections in Kelantan somewhere along those 20 long years? You mean the dictator Mahathir could not have fixed the elections in Kelantan somewhere along those 20 years? How come? Any rational explanations?
In 2008, the conspirators let the Pakatan break the 2/3 majority. They let Pakatan win in five States. And they let Pakatan get almost 50% of the popular vote. What kind of vote rigging is this?
One dunggu said, if UMNO did not rig the elections in 2008, they would have lost.
I say kawan, so you say UMNO did stuff the votes in the ballot boxes. OK fine. But now you are saying UMNO did not know how many extra votes to stuff in the ballot boxes?
They stuffed too little of “extra” votes? Ya lah, otherwise how did Pakatan break the 2/3 majority? Because UMNO stuffed too few phantom votes in over 80 Parliamentary seats. Thats what you are saying. How dunggu can you get?
How do you explain the fact that the Pakatan has failed to show even one Ballot Box anywhere in Malaysia were the number of votes counted was more than the number of people who came to vote? Until today they have not been able to show any such thing, including the so called postal votes. How come? Can anyone of you explain? We are waiting for your genius explanation.
And how do you explain the fact that in Permatang Punai, there are houses with more than 50 voters registered in one address? Explain lah cikit? Jangan diam saja.
How do you explain that the same dictatorial Government has introduced the Internet, introduced broadband and WIMAX with no censorship of the Internet. Malaysia has a most vibrant and totally uncensored Blogosphere. Unfortunately it is Anwar Ibrahim and Rais Yatim who have been going around suing people for one thing or another – to prevent them from talking about things.
And it is official policy of the State Government of Penang (which is DAP / Pakatan controlled) to ban news media that they disagree with from attending their Press Conferences. Their excuse is very simple : we dont like these media, they write things that we dont like. So we ban them. And these pieces of sh*t say they are democratic.
It is quite understandable that the Chinese and some Indians want to break the Malay grip on political power in this country. This is understandable. This is a free country. It is your democratic right to vote which ever way you want.
But that does not mean that you should use all kinds of hypocrite, vile, fraudulent, deceitful, duplicit, diabolical, sodomist, adulterous, corrupt to the hilt thieves to achieve your objective. And here is one more – your leader, his boyfriend, the boyfriend’s wife (your leader’s ex mistress) are all UMNO rejects.
Some of you have said it point blank in this Blog “We dont care who is screwing who… ” That describes exactly what you are.”
My sentiment exactly.
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“Accuse Upin and Ipin”? hahaha. But seriously, off hand I can pinpoint one disputed result, i.e. K. T’ganu Parliament seat 2004, voter turnout suspiciously high. — Helen
credit to Syed Akbar Ali
Helen, Upin & Ipin poke is a classic one, Imagine Upin & Ipin in BN out fit hahhahhah,
As for K. T’ganu Parliament seat 2004 can you supply the figures?, curious la, i thought 2004 election was a slam dunk for BN.
QUOTE:
UNQUOTE (Source: here)
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General election 1999
http://www.sadec.com/Election/pterengganu.html
P36 – Kuala Terengganu
Total Voters: 63,893
Syed Azman Syed Ahmad Nawawi (PAS): 31,580
Abu Bakar Daud (Umno): 17,132
Total Votes cast: 48,712
Turnout: 76.51%
Spoilt Votes: 230
Majority: 14,448
Click to access special.asp
General election 2004
Total Voters: 72,259
Razali Ismail (Umno): 30,994
Syed Azman Syed Ahmad Nawawi (PAS): 29,061
Turnout: 84.33%
Spoilt Votes: 790
Majority: 1,933
In 1999 GE, the PAS candidate got 31,580 votes & won with a majority of 14,448.
In 2004 GE, the same PAS candidate got 29,061 votes, i.e. not much different from his 1999 results.
His Umno challengers Abu Bakar Daud got 17,132 votes in 1999 & Razali Ismail got 30,994 votes in 2004.
Dr Syed Azman thought the drastic difference where the support for Umno almost doubled between GE10 and GE11 was suspicious.
PAS also alleged that more than 10,000 ballots were unreturned in the Kuala Terengganu constituency.
Quote: See KS Ong’s comment here (I copypaste below)
K S Ong says:
December 10, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Unquote
POSTSCRIPT: The backroom dealing between PAS & Umno over the disputed KT and Kelantan results (remember that PAS held on to Kelantan in 2004 with a razor thin margin) mentioned by KS Ong is true.
“POSTSCRIPT: The backroom dealing between PAS & Umno over the disputed KT and Kelantan results (remember that PAS held on to Kelantan in 2004 with a razor thin margin) mentioned by KS Ong is true. ”
A)Can you verify this statement from an independent source?
B)Any idea where KS ONG got his data? ,
“In 1999 GE, the PAS candidate got 31,580 votes & won with a majority of 14,448.
In 2004 GE, the same PAS candidate got 29,061 votes, i.e. not much different from his 1999 results.
His Umno challengers Abu Bakar Daud got 17,132 votes in 1999 & Razali Ismail got 30,994 votes in 2004.
Dr Syed Azman thought the drastic difference where the support for Umno almost doubled between GE10 and GE11 was suspicious. ”
C)Have you revisited this theory in 2004 with the results of the by election in in 2009?
“I wish to refer to the 2004 election results for Kuala Terengganu. I happened to log on soon after the results and found the spoilt votes exceeded 10,000! Against the majority of 1,933, it raised suspicions more than anything else.”
D) Is this allegation correct?, do belief this and his allegation is true by bring it up ,as part of your answer?
Hi,
(A) Dunno how you’d class the source but Dr Syed Azman told me (years ago, back when I was a journo). I’m sure this same story is known to political reporters, particularly at Harakah, Tranungkite & the rest.
(B) The data is in public domain, just Google. The newspaper archives would have it. And it was provided by me (I had also included the urls), not by KS Ong.
I quoted KS Ong for the part where he testified that he “happened to log on soon after” the results were uploaded online and saw with his own eyes the 10,000 figure. I’m not acquainted with him personally but am aware that he’s a prolific commenter in the websites for many years now.
(C) Interesting suggestion. Can you pls do & share with us?
(D) I think so, yes. See (A)
Ok Helen,
I will try but from a layman perspective.
But just humor me with you giving it a fast look and a quick summary answer to the question D.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Comparing with the Sabah coup, even though Pairin’s PBS got the most seats, the state govt was stolen from the Christian natives. That didn’t happen in K’tan where it needed only 2 PAS Aduns to jump. I remember the Aduns were preemptively sequestered. Also Anwar’s Sept 16 saw the MPs being pursued to Taiwan. Umno did not try to topple the K’tan PAS govt. hence KS Ong was only repeating one popular, quite possible, speculation.
Helen
Helen, in the malaysian election system what exactly does “‘unreturned’ ballots” means?, care to help out anyone?.
Helen,
Yes. you are right. MCA is not the equal to UMNO. That is the fact. The simple fact is that UMNO dominates BN. and the best part is that UMNO or Malays feel there is nothing to be embarassed about it.
WHY? Because UMNO earns it? How? through winning the election and has the most number seats in Parliament . As i said it earlier, all of all seats won by BN, 100% from UMNO. it is UMNO that gives faces to BN in Penang.
Nobody is stopping MCA from upstaging UMNO. But the demography will tell otherwise. Malays are the largest group. Hence, in election where numbers matter, UMNO therefore as the only Malay based party in BN has advantage.
And for this particular reason, PAS is unable to overtake UMNO . Unlike UMNO which position as leading party in BN is recognised, PAS does not have the same privilege. PAS in PR is what Malay called “melukut ditepi gantang”. Meaning irrelevant.
And PAS justifies UMNO’s claim by renouncing its Islamic quest. a big mistake as it is the principle that allows it to have substantial Malay support after UMNO. Furthermore, to Malays, independence has no meaning if they are ruled by chinese. Not enoughy to have a malaybased party in PR. The Malay party must have a dominant position.
Chinese ( seen by malays) as rather ungrateful( no offence). Meaning they make demand and expect UMNO to give in. Yet they refuse to support BN.
It can backfire. already the Malays are asking why on earth they should support MCA in Malay areas. That is the reason why Dr Zambri wants a Malay to fight in Pasir Panjang.
BERSIH 3 actually is helping UMNO. its claim that fanatical and racist DAP will “naik tocang” if Malays loses political power ( from Malay view) is justified and reasonable. You can see how rude many DAP supporters are.
But the real loser i s PAS. Even PAS members i my area is unable to reason why on earth they must “obey” Ambiga as if she is the Prophet.
As for anwar, despite the massive coverage in TV about him, he is actually not occupying main position in “UMNO’s radar”. Vast majority of Malays( minus the demonstators of course) do not trust him. actually they hate him . He is considered “finished”.
But of course, you will not know this if one to base his opinion after reading Malaysian Insider or Nanyang Siang pau or STAR.
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Agree with you that Chinese having exposure only to alternative media in English are unable to read the Malay ground, a failing not at all helped by their sombong attitude & believing wholly in their own Firster propaganda. — Helen
“UMNO earns it”, “ruled by Chinese”, “naik tocang”
– Shamshul anuar
The sentiments expressed by Shamshul is precisely the kind of road block we face towards national unity, from the other side of the divide I suppose.
There is nothing to backfire Shamshul, at least not for people like you. There are racists everywhere of all creed and colour, and yours are just as sweet as the sino-centric idiots out there.
Until we learn to rise beyond the elite bargaining system by race, we will forever miss the forest for the trees.
I’ve always wondered why Chinese Malaysian politicians are so, for the lack of a better word, un-ambitious. If I go into politics, and if I am Chinese, I would tell the whole country that it is my intention to become the Prime Minister. Everyone who goes into politics should aim for the highest office, just like how we should strive to be the best in everything we do.
Elite bargaining system, what an insightful term as it refelcts the realiy of the component parties of BN where the elite of each races bargain for the economic pie of the country for their respctive grass roots(also for themselves).
I womder what model pakatan will take, winner take all as per meritocractic principles…so it is either the quantitative advantage of PAS or the wealth of the chinese to drive the leadership.
Nsync, I applaude your effort for a humanity base creed as appose to a race/religion base creed . You need TRUST and RESPECT to start this journey of humanity.
Unfortunatley both ingredient are in short supply on both sides of the divide.And if not replenish the friction will burn us all.
Dear Kotey,
You believe a common medium of instruction would help? The tool for knowledge acquisition (i.e. language) matters more than the knowledge itself? I’ve always believed the problem with vernacular education, or some specific types of school, creates a monolithic ethnic conclave / environment that limits interracial interaction.
Btw forrestcat, the term elite bargaining has been around for some time among political economists.
You are spot on
Helen , hence the need for a common ground of langauge.
Ahmad Ibrahim, I like your take!
As for PAS, I noticed their inconsistencies in attitudes, rather than in policies. I stil think, policies wise, they still maintain their Islamic State agenda, only that they needed to communicate with their audience in ways deemed responsive by their audience, hence the Welfare State idea. Their attitudes, however, are baffling, as they can switch from one end to another overnight. Salehudin Ayub, now the VP, when he was the Ketua Pemuda PAS, organized a concert by inviting the Blues Gang! and the irony is, the leadership endorsed his idea! But on another level, concerts were deemed permissible a la the ‘nasyid padang pasir’ style only, imitations of middle-eastern cultures, with no instruments played. Today you have the so-called Anwaristas helming the leadership, but let us not be surprised that after GE13 when PAS is predicted to lose quite significantly, the ulamak will once again come to the fore, and the Islamic State agenda will once again be revived.
I agree with Helen that Christian groups are making their presence more and more obvious in DAP and I think it is important for Christians to tell their respective churches not to dictate their political direction. Already, there are voices of Christians who are not happy at all with priests and pastors telling them who to and who not to support, turning worship into political sermons. If this were to continue, members of congregations will eventually fight against each other and sunday worship will see one side sitting on the right, and the other side, on the left, of the church seatings. Lessons should be learnt from the Malay Muslim experience where in the 1980s, due to the kafir-mengkafir issue, PAS and UMNO followers pray separately in the same mosque. If DAP and their Christian zealots do not stop the Christian agenda, they will see the churches experience the same thing happening in the Muslim community in this country, and worse to come, the Buddhist and Taoist groups will come to the fore and tell them that they do not champion the chinese cause, and this will split the chinese community into factions and fragments, thanks to DAP.
This include Helen so vocal. Please advise Jibby to held the erection now and don’t ding dong as one can tell if he is a Bangsar or subang jaya – or going to heaven or hell. If those who sit in deserves to be tear gas or water spray last Saturday, Then the Palestinians deserved the treatment by the Iraelis for throwing rock or using catapult.
Palestinians fighting for their land…. invaded by Israel. Just to refresh your memory
BN is elected by the majority, not invading this country, in case you can’t see the big picture
-kawekoambo-
What land? The Promised Land?
No comment on NST with the tails between the legs when this OZ Senator is just looking into the legal action to take about NST put into his mouth?
Here comes the PASter….Helen brace for the onslaught of the holy warriors of PASter (strange how it rhymes with pastor)….
calvin, another original one bro, PASters :0.
What the fish are you to drag the palestinian issue into malaysia context……..by right then the fru should have used phosphorus grenades if you want pdrm to be on the same level as the zionists.
But you sre too late, the god blessed lim gua eng have put pdrm the same level ss getsapo, so someone is more daft than you.
allen Chong,
There is no such thing as “kafir mengkafir” in malay politics. The terminology implies both UMNO and PAS accusing each other as infidel.
UMNO never claims PAS members at any time as infidel. It was PAS that uses religion as weapon against UMNO. The accurate word is PAS “kafirkan” UMNO. It was PAS that refuses to pray behind UMNO imam.
Whatever weaknesses UMNO have, one thing for sure, it never play God the way PAS is known for. Allen, are you aware that UMNO was condemned for decades simply for being pragmatic. Meaning realizing that with non Muslim being approximately 40% of population, it is no way but to have political alliance with them.
Until today PAS uses mosques for its own worldly advantages. I lost count on occasions where UMNO was condemned for urging Anwar to swear pr on ridiculous issue such as Dr Khir was condemned to hell for Selangor to have public holiday on Sunday instead of Friday.
What these morons simply refuse to realise that having a public holiday in Sunday is totally for economic reason. Better to allign your holiday with the rest of the world. Unless Malaysia is a world major economic power.
AS FOR DAP, it commits grievious mistake by giving false hope to Chinese. DAP makes Chinese to believe that it can replicate Penang to the rest of Malaysia, totally ignoring demography. Even in Penang Chinese is approximately 45% of the population.
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Kim Guan Eng merely continued in the tradition of Chinese CMs in Penang, i.e. Wong Pow Nee, Lim Chong Eu & Koh Tsu Koon. The BN chief is still a Gerakan man despite the party & MCA having zero state seats and Umno 11. — Helen
” The BN chief is still a Gerakan man despite the party & MCA having zero state seats and Umno 11. — Helen”
The above fact is the testament of tolerance in UMNO or rather sheer stuspidity on their part?
UMNO have the numbers and Gerakan have nothing, yet Gerakan is the leader.
Why not UMNO go for broke, take over the leadership in Penang, and let the Malay, Mamak etc rally behind them.
Lest the have no balls, as alluded by Syed (http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.com/2012/04/umno-penang-selangor-makan-roti-teloq.html)
-kawekoambo-
Dear mc2m,
It didn’t take political majority for the Chinese Malaysians to lose the Finance Minister post at the federal level. I think like Malacca, Penang will have its Malay CM soon.
You see, the problem with politics is that a majority is a convenient argument for more concentration of power. It could be a majority of one or hundreds or millions, but it IS a majority. So in the name and cloak of this ‘majority’, the ruling elites built themselves a patronage system based on contracts, permits and other business opportunities. This is true for Malaysia as well as any other country. So, the question here is this, at what level do we draw this picture of majority? We have 13 states and 3 federal territories, at this level, there is no non-Malay majority, so all CM should come from UMNO if BN wins the GE. Lets go down one more level, we have about 200+ national and 570+ state electoral districts. Some have non-Malay majority, but most have a Malay majority. So, by your argument, a Malay minority area must accept a non-Malay electoral representative, just like how a non-Malay minority area must accept a Malay electoral representative. This arrangement should please your logic, because ultimately, the Malays are still going to take home the top posts (from CM to PM), no?
So, have you figured out the problem with this picture?
A Chief Minister or a Prime Minister does not rule by fiat. In any organization, the leader is an embodiement of the collective consensus of the people. Assuming that the masses vote along ethnic lines, and thus justifying proportionate power by population ratios, is a flawed premise that prioritized the driver’s skin colour than his or her driving skills.
I agree with you the tokenism of Penang’s CM-ship should end. So many UMNO warlord are salivating at the post. So, if BN can convince the electorate that a Malay CM can do better, put it into their next GE’s manifesto. Tell the Penangnites that because UMNO is the largest party with the highest number of electoral seats, the choice of CM can only be made among their representatives. I doubt it is tolerance or stupidity on UMNO’s part to let a Chinese lead Penang all this while, it is the split Malay votes – BN need to court Chinese votes.
So next time, if DAP won the most seats in a given PR state, don’t la then say their representative can’t be the CM. What is good for the goose…
You just pray that DAP won’t win the most number of Parliamentary seats lah when PR form the federal government. Unless PAS and PKR can contribute half a candidate each to be the PM, a DAP majority is still a majority what, so since they are not so tolerant and not so stupid, kau-kau they put a Chinese PM also possible, by your own logic and argument la.
( I hate N’Sync | Mei 3, 2012 at 9:51 am),
Should DAP have the majority, I have no qualm about the PMship among them…. that’s the democracy that we practice now, and we should honour that, unless PAS have the other idea that ADDIN should be practiced, thus only MUSLIM DAP should be elected.
-kawekoambo-
PAS hatred of umno takes shape from the vendetta that cult leader nik aziz have againts umno which pretty complicated and stems from the day when PAS was part of umno…nik aziz was apparently humiliated by someone in umno or by something that umno did…i am vague on the details myself..i just wait for god to claim this old man and after which hopefully new pas leadership will inject some common sense into its leadership cohorts.
I mentioned about the flip-flop mindset of PAS that would switch from one end to another almost overnight. Yesterday, Abdul Hadi Awang was quoted to have said that should Pakatan be powered into Putrajaya, the first thing that PAS would do is to amend the constitution so that Islam as the official RELIGION of Malaysia would be changed to ADDIN because, according to him, religion is not wide enough to cover the meaning of Islam as ‘a complete way of life’ while ADDIN is. This attitude is almost similar to Anwar Ibrahim who suggested the abolishment of the PTPTN without first consulting with his fellow Pakatan leaders. Promises, Promises. But without consultation with one another. And….they will start quarelling with one another that this was never discussed among them. And we want them to be in Putrajaya?
I simply CANT wait to see PAS in power. WITH PAS IN POWER, all the CINEMAS under their jurisdiction will be BANNED. I guess PKR is all out for the BANNING of CINEMAS throughout Malaysia!
Hidup Pas!
Problem with PKR’s mentality is that their component parties are striving for a certain agenda without consulting each other – THAT IS MADNESS!
While BN has its weakness, UMNO MCA AND MIC have shed a lot of sweat and tears to become a very moderate party! They always consult with one another before implementing policies.
Anyways, you have to give thumbs up to PKR on their psywarfare techniques. It is beautifully strategized and execute. I wouldn’t be surprised that US is advising PKR to carry out their publicity campaign. BN has got to counter their relentless PSYWARFARE campaign. As far as it is concerned, they are outclass to PKR psywarfare campaign.
Regards,
FZ (A loyal learner of Joseph Goebbles)
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DAP’s psywar also quite remarkable. Like Anwar who at his most recent press said everyone asking critical questions must be “Umno media” incl. Benjy Lim, the DAPsters also see Umno agents behind every tree. — Helen
I hate Nsync,
Call a spade a spade. Meaning I only what the malays think. while malays may be a tolerant lot, their generosity like any other races has limits.
There is nothing racist about that. It is law of human nature. Just as chinese feels that A Chinese should be the Chief Minister of Penang, the Malays also think they should control the politics.
How nice of you to urge all of us to break away from racial tag. For a start, why do not you ask DAP to agree to one Malaysian school system. then maybe, Malays are less apprehensive on prospect of a Chinese prime Minister.
And nobody is punishing kIt Siang if he says he wants to be the prime minister. Just because the largest group, Malays do not trust him does not mean that they are racist.t
Just that Muslimss are reminded that they should elect “Umat Nabi muhammad SAW” for the highest of office. And unfortunately Kit siang is not “umat Nabi Muhammad SAW”.
I know Shamshul, but I remembered a lot of from my days studying the Quran and the Sunnah, and I think you must have interpreted Surah 49:13 wrongly.
“O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.”
– Sahih International
“Wahai manusia sesungguhnya kami jadikan kamu lelaki dan perempuan dan kami jadikan kamu berbangsa-bangsa dan berpuak-puak supaya kamu kenal-mengenal. Sesungguhnya sebaik-baik kamu di sisi Allah ialah yang paling bertakwa di antara kamu.” (Al-Hujurat, 49:13)
Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. pernah bersabda bahawa “Sesungguhnya Allah tidak akan melihat bentuk-bentuk tubuhmu dan harta kamu tetapi akan melihat isi hati kamu dan amal-amalmu”. (Hadith Riwayat Muslim). Rasulullah juga bersabda “Tiada kelebihan seseorang terhadap yang lainnya melainkan dengan taqwa kepada Allah”. (Hadith Riwayat Abu Bakar Albazzar).
Yes, LKS is not a muslim, but the Quran and Sunnah asked you to choose the most righteous among us to lead, yang paling bertakwa, not yang paling beriman. Acts and deeds my brother, not race and skin colour.
We have a one Malaysia school system, vernacular option at primary level, integrated schooling at secondary and tertiary level, just like UNESCO proposed. At least, if you are referring to the public education system. Private schools will always be there, our job is to make sure that we have public schools that can rival tthem. Why do you want to victimize non-Malay children whose mother tongue is not Malay at the primary level of education?
MAjlis ulama PAS FATWA in 1968 – “Non muslim cannot be elected as a leader”
that was the time when they fight tooth and nail with UMNO, branded them as kafir when umno aligned themselves with MCA & MIC.
That Fatwa had not been nullified by their MAjlis Ulama yet, thus the fatwa still stand (for PAS)
by that, LKS cannot be elected as a leader, but then, that was PAS of 1960’s not the present PAS :)
-kawekoambo-
Rasulullah juga bersabda “Tiada kelebihan seseorang terhadap yang lainnya melainkan dengan taqwa kepada Allah”. (Hadith Riwayat Abu Bakar Albazzar). <- you just answered.
We Muslim are not selecting a Malay because he is Malay, we selected him because he is a Muslim.
Dear Kinasuki,
You genuinely don’t understand what is wrong with putting religion as a leadership pre-requisite or are you just pretending to be a dumb racist?
Nobody is talking about Malays, even though the Constitution defined all Malays as muslims. The problem here is that it is interesting to know that the average (in every sense of the word) muslim actually feel that they can only vote for a muslim candidate over a non-muslim one, even if the muslim candidate sucks big time.
I find this extremely amusing, and disturbing, because it matters not if we are capable or not, for in Malaysia, the muslims will only cast their votes for their lot. So what the hell do we have multiracial coalitions and elections and promotion exercises for? Say you have a selection committee to choose the Vice Chancellor of a university. Instead of picking the best candidate, the selection committee made up of muslims will pick the best muslim candidate. So what the hell do you want non-muslims to do? Mull around and aim for a deputy post?
Oh, wait, that’s already happening… brilliant. No wonder muslims in Malaysia think it is natural for all their organizations to be led by muslims (I didn’t say Malay, ok?). With mentality like this, non-muslims in this country should realize where they stand on ANY organization chart, rotflmao.
I hate Nsync,
I am afraid you got it wrong. Yes. AlQuran reminds us that the most honoured among us ( in God’s view) are those who are righteous. And the word ‘takwa’ means literally “beriman pada allah SWT dan mengikut ajaranNya”. I am sure LKS is not righteous knowing very well that he likes to instigate . Furthermore , he is racist and fond of perpetuating a dynasty.
I am not insulting LKS for being non Muslim. What I stress is that no Malays if they abide by what AlQuran says will ever want to be led by a non Muslim as a Prime minister. And it is wrong for Muslim( in particular case as majority) to choose a non Muslim as their supreme leader.
“…Why do you want to victimize…’
What make you think i want to victimize non Malay students. I just want them to mix with people from other races. I never deny the right to study mother tounges.
The truth is that separate school literally separates us. But you are right. Non Malay students are victimized. No thanks to overzealous Chinese politicians who plant “isolation seed’ on these minds. These students have almost no non malays friends. They do not ‘know” malay students.
They will have trouble as many can not speak malays, making them out of civil service.
I notice when I speak something of malay interests, you tend to look down as if I am racist. The one actually looking on skin colour is people from DAP. Remember what they said to Dr Zambri.
I will use this to address the mother tongue bit first. I am talking about studying IN their mother tongue at primary level, budak darjah 1 – 6. I am not talking about studying the language, I am talking about studying IN that particular language.
Secondly, there are more things separating us than schools, but our education system tries to get everyone together at the secondary level onwards. You tell me where the exclusive conclaves exist, from ICHS to MRSM.
Thirdly, the civil service’s problem is not so much Malay-speaking, but equality in promotions and performance-based rewards.
I am trying to point out to you that the favourite argument to tell the Chinese to shut down the SRJK(C) is flawed. It is there for an educational reason, not political ones. ICHS on the other hand…
I beg to differ. I have treated many Indonesian patients of Chinese origin. They speak perfect Bahasa Indonesia and also converse fluently amongst their family in Chinese dialect. If the Indonesians can do it, there is no reason why Malaysians cannot. Tunku gave too much face to the Chinese during independence and now we are paying the price because trust has eroded to non-existent levels and the Chinese remain so very degil about preserving schools teaching in the national language of the PRC instead of choosing to belong to this country… coupled with paranoia that Malays want everyone to go to school together to exert their ‘ketuanan’. No-one is asking the Chinese to forget the culture and language of mainland PRC. We are merely asking that they make more effort to belong to this land.
“If the Indonesians can do it, there is no reason why Malaysians cannot”
there is reason, i know he know she know everone know, not sure why u pretend u dont know. if we r allowed to turn back the clock, i am fine with assimilation. but i know u prefer so called ‘integration’ in order to continue drawing a clear line.
Dear Iqraq,
If by shutting down SRJK(C)s will do it for the Malays to prove the Chinese’s commitment to Malaysia, by all means do so. I have no idea why so many Malays are hell bent on shutting down Sekolah Rendah Jenis Kebangsaan (Cina) and Sekolah Rendah Jenis Kebangsaan (Tamil). It was meant as a transition anyway, but today it became staple. There was a time the SRJKs were dying a natural death.
I am all for the Bahasa Kebangsaan, tapi tak pastilah dengan crowd PPSMI.
Dear I-hate-N’Sync,
The Satu Sekolah Untuk Semua (SSS) people believe that Chinese schools breed DApsters.
See their memo to the Education Minister:
http://satusekolahuntuksemua.wordpress.com/the-memo/
QUOTE
UNQUOTE
The bold emphasis is mine, pointing to the SSS crowd’s unhappiness with the DAPsterism they see in cyberspace.
The irony is that the online vitriol that the SSS memo complains about is the aggression conveyed through English. The fact of the matter is that Namewee-type are less likely to be commenting online in English whereas the Firsters most definitely yes.
I feel why Chinese in Malaysia will not want to assimilate unlike in Indonesia because they have the numbers over here..
The Babas and Nyonyas had assimilated well in Malaysia for hundreds oh years because they were very few then and to survive they need to assimilate with the locals.
Can u find in other parts of the world that the Chinese do not want to assimilate.? Only in Malaysia, brother..
ur feeling is properly right wrt numbers. and u raised an interesting question “Can u find in other parts of the world that the Chinese do not want to assimilate.?” Thus the problem is not with the chinese, don’t u think this is something pretty unique about malaysia? it is mind boggling that you’ve yet to figure this out.
Hua Yong;
Sorry , if I have to say the problem lies with the Chinese..
Malays have no problem to accept other races to live within their community as long they respected their custom and culture. We have within us the Babas and Nyonyas, The Chittys, Indians intermarry with Malays ( Mamaks), Arab intermarry with Malays (Jawi Peranakan). For Babas /Nyonyas and Chittys , it is not necessary for them to convert in order for them to be accepted. For Malays mixed with Arab, Indian, Turkish we readily accept as part our Malay stock and willingly accept them as our leader if they become our leader.
The problem with the Chiese, once they feel they have the numbers, they feel they were powerful and once these power things come to their head, they started to disturb the status quo. This is something innate in the Chinese physche.
I quoted the 4 racial conflicts in the Malay Penisular/Borneo. It had happened because the Chinese were the agrressors and the natives were only reacting.
Goondoo, don’t make me go there with all your faulty historical conclusions and claims of “Chinese as the aggressors”.
You claimed that the Chinese in Malaysia do not want to assimilate, citing the SRJK(C) as proof. There are also SRJK(T), so the Tamils in Malaysia also do not want to assimilate. Define assimilate and what will satisfy your condition of assimilation. We all become babas and nyonyas?
Check out Monyet King’s take on this… It’s not about wanting to shut down vernacular schools per se.. It’s about *increasing contact*. http://planetofthemonyets.blogspot.com/2012/01/monyets-way-to-promote-inter-ethnic-and.html?m=1
With regards to SRJK(T): I have NEVER met a Malaysian of Indian origin who could not speak enough Bahasa Malaysia to get through a medical consultation adequately, but those who speak only the national language of PRC and no other language (apart from some cincai sign language) – ramaiii sangat. Can’t even explain about the treatment I am giving them. Tell me if I am being unreasonable. I don’t think I am.
Dear Iqraq,
I’ll write a response to you in a posting proper either tomorrow or later on why I support vernacular schools.
We (those of us desiring Chinese medium of instruction) might be able to dismiss the SSS petition as originating from a right winger (Kijang Mas of Demi Negara blog) but when Malays like Farish Noor or you feel compelled to bring up this topic in all good faith & with goodwill, I’m afraid that we (Chinese who want the SRJKCs) are at risk of losing our ‘moral’ – I wouldn’t say high – ground.
Cheers.
Orait… Thanks Helen.. Ideally we need data to back up these perceived conclusions I am making which I admit are from anecdotal experiences. However I think I have a privileged vantage point through my work which brings me into contact with Malaysians from all over the country including East Malaysia, from all socio-economic backgrounds including many from rural and poverty-stricken areas as well as from all political affiliations. I love this country and I want to share it with others who love it also.
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Iqraq,
I have a small sampling of data from my blog analytics (i.e. stats available to me as blog administrator). Quite intriguing! Like I’ve noticed that when my articles in BM
onmentioning Tan Sri Tan Kok Ping (LGE’s bff & president of the Pg Chinese Chamber of Commerce) appear, they are read via Google Translator (indicating the reader doesn’t understand Malay) & when I have postings with ‘MCA’ in the headline, I get a bunch of hits from Google Reader & when I talk about S’gor Times, I get encrypted searches and hide referrers, waaah.Helen
Waaah… Awesome stats… That’s a blog post in itself lah…. Menarik…
goondoo, what about thailand?
“I have NEVER met a Malaysian of Indian origin who could not speak enough Bahasa Malaysia to get through a medical consultation adequately”
i didn’t realize we were debating who could or could not speak enough bm, so what exactly is your point? the indian “assimilated” better than the chinese?
you NEVER met doesn’t mean there is NO indian who could not speak enough bm, i met MANY indian who could not speak enough bm. (ah, now only i know the fun to write in CAPITAL LETTER)
however i can agree that increasing contact is a fair statement. we can explore further.
Dear HuaYong,
Glad you found the CAPS Lock.
Yes, hence my admission that my experiences, although very broad, are anecdotal and ideally we need hard data on this. But to answer your other question, yes, Malaysians of Indian origin generally speaking, tend to assimilate better than the Chinese so SRJK(T) does not stick out like sore thumb as much as SRJK(C). Why is this, I do not know.
I’ve mentioned before that even Chinese students educated in national schools do not get along with vernacular-schooled Chinese. Can you help explain this?
It is my hope that our society in the future will no longer exist in three separate silos within the same country from childhood to old age. Going to school together will help tremendously in this.
I hateNSync
To assimilate, I believe the Chinese need to connect with the Malays .. To connect you need to understand their language, able to communicate and also respect their culture. You know that Malays tend to be accommodative but don’t push your lucks by asking Malays to abolish their special priveleges; don’t demonising DEB as if it is an apartheid practices like some Chinese leaders do. Don’t misrepresented “Ketuanan Melayu” as Master and Slave relationship like some Chinese like to do. Definitely, you can’t connect if you live within your cocoon. If one common school is difficult for Chinese to accept, at least they should give a chance to integrated school.But no; even Integrated School are also rejected by the Chinese.
You know; there are racial and religious fault-lines that will be difficult to resolve. At least we can bridge it by communicating via a common language.
I mentioned before that Chinese need to learn “bersyukur” and less Kiasu when dealing with the Malays. When you are bersyukur; you will never raised sensitive things like the DAP.
” don’t make me go there with all your faulty historical conclusions and claims of “Chinese as the aggressors”.
If you have the facts and claim otherwise , please share with us.. then.
Dear Iqraq
Thank you for less use of capital letter as if we can’t read in proper context.
Do you know why you perceive SRJK(T) does not stick out like sore thumb (?) as much as SRJK(C)? Because the Indian problem is never a problem in Malaysia, you never hear this before? Ask MiNY.
Did the Bangsar Malay get along well with those from Kelantan or other rural area? And it also depends on what is your understanding of ‘get along’.
I share your hope in last paragraph, we might depart on how to get there, not sure yet unless I read more from you and to know where you are coming from. I stated here my position frankly, if you are no difference with those from DN horde, I will respond likewise. But since Helen have high regard toward you, I hope the exchange could be a meaningful one and let us learn from each others.
Cheers
Saudara HuaYong,
Saya kurang faham istilah ‘the Indian problem’. Saya tidak pernah memandang saudara-saudara dari kaum-kaum lain di negara ini sebagai ‘problem’ termasuklah kaum Han. Saya juga tidak sukakan penyalahgunaan kuasa, korupsi, nepotisme dan kroniyisme yang diamalkan oleh pihak BN dan tidak memandang mereka sebagai maksum. Akan tetapi, saya juga tidak sukakan pihak-pihak yang mengapi-apikan sentimen perkauman dan keugamaan untuk kepentingan politik serta kemaruk kuasa mereka, tidak kira pihak mana.
Saya memberi pendapat yang ikhlas dengan tujuan yang ikhlas yakni kerana sayangkan negara ini dan ingin melihat masyarakat majmuk kita hidup bersatu-padu dan aman damai. Walaupun kita tidak bertentang mata dan hanya berhubung di alam siber, marilah kita *bersangka baik* antara satu sama lain supaya dialog ini boleh diteruskan dengan hujah-hujah yang bernas tanpa dibuai emosi dan syak wasangka.
(tak pakai caps lock kali nie lah, asterisk boleh tak?)
Dear Iqraq,
I do have a possible explanation of your encounter in public health, and perhaps some data are in order. Afterall, utilization of public and private health care services do show significant ethnic differences. But I believe that a more pertinent point is being raised, in that fluency in Malay language is very important as a marker of assimilation.
I totally agree that we need to increase inter-ethnic contact during our formative years. With the ICHS and private tertiary education system locally and abroad, it is now possible for Chinese students to skip the national education system altogether. Because our education system has divided the students into different conclaves, it is not surprising that they feel that they have little in common.
As such, the logical mental exercise is to identify the source of such divergent paths in life, not just education, but also socio-political and economic domains. Since the average Chinese have convinced themselves that they cannot hope for much from their interaction with the Malay dominant authorities, tbey have not invested much participation in most government initiatives. I see it everyday at my work. The Chinese in Malaysia is actually divided into the English speaking, Mandarin and other Chinese dialect speaking and the Malay speaking groups. It was once speculated that the first and second group will gradually be wiped out by many sinologists, but the Chinese community’s preserverance and resilience in sustaining their mother tongue education has astonished many. Like the Melayu barus who are more anglicised, Chinese education movement proponents are more or less treated at the same level as the Perkasa and Malay supremacist and national language purists. In fact, most Chinese Malaysian parents send their children to SRJK(C)s and ICHS because they are convinced it offers better standards of education and equality of treatment and opportunities. It has little to do with Mandarin or ethnic identity or cultural affinity. English speaking parents who don’t speak a word of Mandarin send their children to SRJK(C)s or ICHS or other private schools because they lost confidence in national schools.
As for goondoo, let me put it to you that it is not true that the Malays and the Chinese don’t understand each other or unable connect to one another, be it their feelings or aspirations or thoughts. I think all Malaysians know what and how we perceive each other, and most of us want the same things in life. The difference is that we never had the opportunity to air this in a productive manner. The elites told us that we should leave such sensitive matters to them, so that the average joe stays uninformed, unchallenged and remains entrenched in their prejudice and stereotypes.
You said that the Chinese were the aggressors in the four selected episodes, but you did not realize that the episodes have multiple incidents that are occuring side by side and the totality of events did not sprang unprovoked or out of the blue. It is like analysing the May 13 event, and the focus has always been on who were the instigators, with the final straw being the Opposition’s offensive victory parade. Sentiments run deep and the TIPPING POINT is not the cause, but the symptoms of something much deeper. This is not giving excuse to the violence or murder crimes committed, be it done by Malays or the Chinese. Racial clashes are a blot of our nation’s history, but lessons are not learnt by apportioning blame, but by a full reflection of how people lost control and resorted to violence. The same can be applied to Bersih, the shame is on ALL of us, not the government or the opposition or the enthusiatic youth or over-reacted police. We failed because we failed to prevent such incidents from happening, and while many would like to point their fingers elsewhere, the fact that everyone has a hand in the outcome.
Dear Iqraq,
Sorry if I am not clear enough, what I meant was when Indian highlights their plight, no one take them seriously and no one care, ergo unconsciously we often thought they are less vocal as compare to Chinese until Hindraf.
And I agree with most that you had written, however my intention is to present a perspective that hope to bridge the gap, you may differ with my approach, but I do believe in reading and appreciate others opinion no matter how strong (but not disparagement comment on race and religion) is the language as long as it is logically constructed.
Btw some clarification, I think Chinese seldom use the term Han to describe ourselves, as there is no such thing as Han Chinese as a racial construct, I suspect the concept of Han Chinese was created for nationalistic sense, perhaps similar to the concept of Malay, genetically northern Chinese are much difference with southern Chinese, height is one good indicative.
Ok la my bad, I am just being sarcastic, both capital and asterisk looks fine.
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Minta maaf mencelah serta tumpang ruang Hua Yong. A quick clarification/explanation for Iqraq. The Chinese language is called hanyu (bahasa Han) and Chinese writing is hanzi (tulisan Han). Han is named after the famous dynasty. — Helen
A modern parallel occurs to me. The Saudis are named after the House of Al Saud royal family of S. Arabia. Bolivians after Simon Bolivar, Rhodesians (last time) after Cecil Rhodes. DAPsters after the DAP.
To further clarify, China does not have a national language. They pick Mandarin dialect as some sort of official language but choose to call it common language (Putonghua) for the sake not to give an impression to relegate the status of other language/dialect.
When we mention Chinese language, we must know that beside the spoken variant (Hanyu or the various dialect), the Chinese do share a unified writing system, the Hanzi. Most Chinese dialects, unlike Mandarin, are not a complete language due to the lack of comprehensive and proper writing system. Some prefer to use Cantonese as an antithesis but we should bear in mind that Hong Kong tertiary education is complemented by English.
I am all for ‘increasing contact’ that could bind us through interaction and empathy via a integrated school system ie the SSS, however the idea can only work with a presupposition that the government is sincere in wanting such an integrated society that is not race base. And think of ways to make BM the real lingua franca besides adopting it as national language (form versus substance), for a start, reduce the dominant factor in various sector to make it more inclusive, i first thought this is the reason we implemente NEP?
Maybe a change of government does help?
I hate Nsync,
You interpret inaccurately the alQuran. the most righteous among Muslimas are those with good deeds( iman and takwa). Iman means recognising Allah as the ONLY GOD. Takwa means literally obeying HIS instructions.
islam is the least racist of all religions. It does not have image of white man preaching to others . It never glorifies Arabs . It recognises the uniqueness of races though.
Muslims are open about who will be the Prime Minister as an example. Meaning dr ridhuan Tee as a Muslim convert can be the candidate and Muslim have no qualm about choosing him.
But LKS is out for several reason. First he is not a Muslim and secondly he is perceived as racist by malays. and of course who can forget his role that leads to may 13.
This is gonna be so much fun. So bear with me, ok?
Our basic contention is that you said as Muslims, you should prioritize other Muslims in the leadership position, while I disagree. I disagreed because Islam is compatible with universal human rights and values. You don’t have to take it from me, the Quran says the same thing, as Qaradawi himself explained:
“Confirmation of Multiplicity
The first pillar is the confirmation of multiplicity or diversity as a natural phenomenon and universal norm. Just as the Muslim believes in the Oneness of the Creator, he believes in the multiplicity of creation in various fields.
There is ethnical multiplicity: [… and We have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another…] (Al-Hujurat 49:13)
There is also linguistic multiplicity: [And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colors. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge] (Ar-Rum 30:22)
Moreover, there is religious multiplicity: [And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing, save him on whom thy Lord hath mercy; and for that He did create them…] (Hud 11:118-119) Exegetes (of the Qur’an) have remarked that (it means) Allah created them to be different(1), because just as He gave each one of them intellect and will power, their attitudes and religions would be different and various.
Additionally, there is sectarian and ideological multiplicity, within the same religion, because Allah revealed the religion as texts that could be seen and interpreted from different perspectives. If Allah had willed to make all Muslims follow one opinion and one school, He would have made the entire religion based on definitely authentic and decisively indicative texts where there would be no room for difference.”
– Qaradawi, 2009
Are you still with me on pluralism? Lets continue with what Qaradawi said about religious diversity:
“The second pillar is that difference of religion comes out of and according to Almighty Allah’s will, which is always connected to His Wisdom. Therefore, Allah would not will except that which reflects wisdom, as “The Ever Wise” is one of His Names. Thus, He neither creates anything in vain nor legislates anything for no good reason.
The Qur’an has declared that this difference in religion is according to Allah’s will (Glorified and Exalted be He), as He says: [And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?] (Yunus 10:99) and says: [… If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance, so be not thou among the foolish ones.] (Al-An`am 6:35) Had Allah willed to make all people guided believers who would always obey Him, He would have made them in a different image (i.e., with a different nature), just as He created the angels with a natural propensity to obey and worship Him. Allah says: [They glorify (Him) night and day; they flag not.] (Al-Anbiya’ 21:20) [… who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them, but do that which they are commanded.] (At-Tahrim 66:6) Since this religious difference is according to Allah’s will, who could stand against His will or think of erasing all religions except His religion? If he tried to do so, he would get nothing but failure, for Allah’s will always prevails, as He is the One, the Almighty.”
– Qaradawi, 2009
If you are a Muslim, Shamshul, you should realize and accept that we are all from a common ancestor, which makes us brothers of humanity. Qaradawi reminded us that Islam honors MAN as the viceregent on earth, not MUSLIMS Shamshul!
“The fifth pillar of tolerance in Islam is that man has been honored basically by virtue of him being human, irrespective of the color of his skin, eyes, or hair, or how his nose or face looks like, and no matter what his language, country, race, social class, OR RELIGION may be.
This is because “honoring” in the sight of the Qur’an is based on humans’ being “children of Adam,” as Almighty Allah says: [Verily We have honored the children of Adam. We carry them on the land and the sea, and have made provision of good things for them, and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment.] (Al-Isra’ 17:70)Allah also says: [Surely We created man of the best stature.] (At-Tin 95:4) [The Beneficent. Hath made known the Qur’an. He hath created man. He hath taught him utterance.] (Ar-Rahman 55:1-4) Allah moreover says in the first revealed verses of the Qur’an: [Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teacheth by the pen;teacheth man that which he knew not.] (Al-`Alaq 96:3-5) The Qur’an also relates: [And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.] (Al-Baqarah 2:30)
A contest was held between Adam – the father of humanity – and the angels, and it showed his superiority over them. For all these reasons, Islam ordains that man should be respected. Therefore, it is not permissible to harm or offend him, or to backbite him with words he would dislike to be described with, even if they should be true, because this would annoy him. Even after his death, only good things are to be said about him, and the sanctity of his body must not be violated whether he is alive or dead; a hadith reads: “Breaking the bones of a dead (person) is as (heinous) as breaking the bones of a living one.”(5)
One of the authentic hadiths which are specially indicative in this regard is a hadith narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim, relating that once a funeral procession passed by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) whereupon he stood up for it as a sign of honoring. The Companions remarked: “O Messenger of Allah! It is a funeral procession of a Jewish man!” meaning it was not of a Muslim. The Prophet’s reply came out with these marvelous words: “Is it not a soul?”(6) How impressive this Prophetic attitude is! And how expressive his justification is! “Is it not a soul?” Yes, it was a human soul; and in Islam every soul is to be respected and sanctified. (The Prophet said so) in spite of the Jews’ numerous offensives and harms against him and his Companions.”
– Qaradawi, 2009
Now, where does all this background story leads us? We established two facts, one, we are all children of Adam and our differences are the designs of Allah. Allah made MAN His viceregent on all other creations. Now, so far, the Quran did not said anything explicit about preferring Muslims over non-Muslims in national leadership. I know which Surah you might be interested to lend your argument some credibility, but I am not done presenting mine.
You said that I interpreted Surah Al-Hujurat 49:13 wrongly, that only people who recognize Allah can be included under the group that follows His instructions. Asasnya, Shamshul mengatakan hanya orang Islam sahaja boleh bertakwa dan mustahil bagi orang bukan Islam untuk bertakwa. I cannot quarrel with the exclusive use of the concept and term “taqwa”, but let me remind you that the Quran recognizes two types of fraternity – the human fraternity and the Islamic fraternity.
“Islam, as a universal religion, honors humankind from different races, tribes, and colours. The Quran says: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). This is addressed to ALL MANKIND and not only to the Muslim brotherhood.
Syaikh Yusuf al-Qardawi, the distinguished contemporary Islamic scholar, differentiates between two types of fraternities in Islam, namely the fraternity of man (al-ikha’ al-insani) and the religious fraternity (al-ikha’ al-dini), both of which are recognized in the Quran.
God says: O you believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others; it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former); nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: ill seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: and those who don’t desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
Al-Qardawi opines that the level of fraternity among Muslims does not deny the significance of another level of fraternity, namely, the wider fraternity of humanity. The two should in fact be seen as complementary, and not contradictory to one another. Having cited the opinion of al-Qardawi, it is pertinent for Muslims today to present the message of the Quran with a pluralistic approach rather than an exclusive one.”
Muhammad, 2008
Dan hakikat ini diperincikan lagi oleh Nazri, Nik Yusi & Ahmad, 2011 yang mengatakan:
“Seterusnya dalam Surah al-Hujurat yang bermaksud:
Wahai umat manusia! Sesungguhnya Kami telah menciptakan kamu dari lelaki dan perempuan, dan Kami telah menjadikan kamu berbagai bangsa dan bersuku puak, supaya kamu berkenal-kenalan (dan beramah mesra antara satu dengan yang lain). Sesungguhnya semulia-mulia kamu di sisi Allah ialah orang yang lebih taqwanya di antara kamu, (bukan yang lebih keturunan atau bangsanya). Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Mengetahui, lagi Maha mendalam pengetahuanNya (akan keadaan dan amalan kamu).
Surah al-Hujurat 49: 13
Dalam ayat ini pula, Allah menerangkan tiada kelebihan di antara satu sama lain mengikut nilai kejadian mereka. Lebih atau kurangnya manusia di sisi Allah sebenarnya diasaskan kepada perbuatan mereka dan sejauh mana mereka menjaga syariat yang telah ditetapkan oleh Islam. Menurut Abdul Monir (1986: 48) hak persamaan dalam Islam terbahagi kepada dua iaitu huququllah (hak Allah) dan huququlibab (hak manusia). Hak Allah merujuk kepada ikatan yang langsung yang boleh menghubungkan Allah dengan hambanya melalui ibadat khusus seperti solat, zakat, haji dan sebagainya. Hak manusia pula merujuk kepada kedudukan manusia di sisi Allah adalah sama dan Allah telah memuliakan kejadian manusia tanpa mengira agama.”
– Nazri, Nik Yusi & Ahmad, 2011
Sukacitanya juga saya ingatkan:
Sebagaimana ditegaskan oleh Sayidina Umar r.a. ”Sesiapa sahaja yang menguruskan urusan orang Islam (memimpin), maka dia melantik seseorang menguruskan (sesuatu urusan) kerana hubungan kerabat atau kenal dan sukanya terhadap orang tersebut (bukan kerana KELAYAKAN yang dimiliki) maka sesungguhnya dia telah mengkhianati Allah dan rasulNya” (Ibn Taymiyyah, 1969: 7–8).
– Nazri, Nik Yusi & Ahmad, 2011
You are telling me that as a muslim, you cannot accept anyone else as a leader except a muslim. I am not referring to LKS or LGE. I am questioning your premise that muslims can only choose leaders who are muslims. I welcome any evidence or proof to that in the Quran or Sunnah before I bring out the Constitution.
wah lau le, nsync ,got short version or not nak baca pon pening
:) :) :)
Muslims living overseas have to deal with having non-Muslim leaders. Some in my family have voted in foreign elections (no, they don’t vote in Malaysian elections as they no longer consider themselves malaysian). They had to contend with the issue that N’sync discusses.
Some of N’syncs points appear valid. I am pretty sure that the issue was raised to Qardawi by overseas muslims living in western countries who wanted to assuage that feeling of guilt for supporting a non-muslim.
However, let me ask you this– if we live in a muslim majority country, why give the top executive position to a non-muslim? It seems illogical and, dare i say it, stupid!
There is another thing — the slippery slope argument that once you start letting one minority become a leader, it would open the door to letting other minorities become leaders.
Even though there may not be explicit laws barring certain types of minorities to be our leaders, by bringing this issue to the forefront, we are giving them a platform.
Recently a white Zambian was interviewed on Hard Talk. He discussed about how as a person with foreign ancestry he is barred from occupying the top position in Zambian politics. However, because it is an issue that is discussed, it gives him a platform. If he performs well, he might even get people to change their minds. And, Zambia will fall to white colonialism in a ‘democratic’ way…
If women deserve a chance to be leaders, then, how about homosexuals? And then why not even foreign born citizens? Heck, if the world becomes more borderless, why not even let foreign visitors who reside in our country become our leaders?
You see where I am getting at? It’s about losing sovereignty and dominance.
Look at the US. Having barack in the white house has even pissed off some liberal white americans i know. They hold him to a higher standard, and in the end they would rather have a familiar white face like Bill Clinton’s.
There is now a debate raging in the US whether or not to support Romney, who is a mormon. Some die hard christians don’t think mormonism is part of christianity. However, despite that fact, many conservative White americans would vote him over barack on account of their hidden racial bias. Already christian pundits are saying it’s better to support a mormon who supports their cause (anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality etc) than a liberal mainstream christian who doesn’t.
See the parallels with malaysian politics? I am sure PAS would justify their support DAP’s christians who are against liberal ideology, and that explains why Hannah Yeoh and her ilk are putting on the fake tudungs…
BN has had to tread a fine line to support all religious affiliations, and I commend for that.
“It’s about losing sovereignty and dominance.”
– OB
This is precisely what I am trying to point out to everyone. In a muslim dominated country, muslims themselves have convinced each other that only the best among the muslims need apply. This is also a very slippery slope that goes ALL THE WAY from the PM to the Chief Minister to the Minister and Chief Secretary and Head of Department etc. etc. etc.
When you choose someone to lead, sure, it should be someone you can relate to, i.e. you share the same beliefs. However, the problem with us is that we are unable to free ourselves of irrational preferences and overlooking the real criterion of significance. As a case in point, Islamic hospitals. Are not the standards of medical care based on the same yardstick when doctors in these so called Islamic hospitals are from, say, UM, UKM, Manchester or Glasgow – trained in modern medicine? Islamic hospitals offer you additional services and websites in Arabic, but it is all a marketing ploy and smokescreen to delude and mislead the consumers in making the correct choice based on QUALITY OF MEDICAL CARE. It is very different from Islamic banking, though purist would say both are the cut from the same cloth.
So, in choosing our leaders, it should be based on their ability and QUALITY TO LEAD. Yes, it is most likely that our PM is going to be a muslim because most muslims would prefer a muslim to lead them. Extend that preference down to the state, district and village level, what do you get? A preference that systematically exclude non-muslims from the muslim majority! That’s what is happening for the Malay – Non-Malay dichotomy!
At this juncture, our system has been flexible enough and rationale enough to see through this false premise. But please, don’t replace one discrimination (Ketuanan Melayu) with another (Ketuanan Islam).
Shamshul, get over it. Nobody here is demeaning Islam nor intent too. Your religion and your faith is your individual prerogative not a state run policy. Can you understand that? Humanity is universal when we are able to embrace it without fear of whether it is UMNO or PR it their shades of grey to muster your religious belief is a hocus pocus. Surely you cannot be that dumb to realize or recognize this. I am sure we are not here not to glorify which religion is better but acknowledge that humanity is supreme without a personal agenda for felllow Malaysians irrespective of origin. Shamshul, I see the goodness in you but don’t be time wasped with your Islamic preaching as I am sure you are aware that no religion preaches anything that is unhealthy against humanity. Who cares what religion you preach, if you can be humane for one another.
Malaysian in New York,
Precisely, may I ask, where in my writing that i am discussing about Islam being demeaned.
And what make you think I am preaching here? What make you think you can interpret inaccurately Al Quran and expect me not to correct you?
And what make you think I am not humane enough for one another. I am not calling names here like what always done by DAP blogs.
Dear Shamshul, I don’t believe religious scripts is there to decide how you should deal with another human being. All most of us need is a tinge of humanity not a pseudo agenda that is prevalient. I understand your frustration, but you not one without choice who have finally found your voice,Imagine those who don’t have one. Friend, I can feel you are a good one,but take your battle on a humanity basis not the typical religion, origin crap at least in Malaysia.The only thing that you can be certain about yourself is your death as we are not immortal ie takdir.The only thing that others can be certain about you is their thought process for how humane you have been.
I hate Nsync,
For your information, Muslims are not allowed to elect a non Muslim as their top leader. As such, I do not think Muslims in Malaysia want to choose Kit siang or Dr Chua as the Prime Minister. They may agree to Dr Ridhuan Tee as he is seen as a capable Muslim.
As for your reference on Nik nazi, may I offer some insight on this matter. What prophet means that choose someone because of his capacity, not just because he is a Muslim. Requirement is still Muslim and fulfilling requirement. Not any Tom, Dick and Harry.
If you are still in shock, why dont you refer to Muslim scholars or even general public.
There is nothing to be surprised at. It is aboutwhat we call “the law of human nature”. I am sure a Malay would not be accepted as Prime Minister of singapore or even as General in Singapore army.
“For your information, Muslims are not allowed to elect a non Muslim as their top leader.”
– Shamshul Anuar
Don’t make me puke with Ridhuan Tee, he is of no relevance to our discussion here. And you are again confusing Islam with Malay, which is another problem here.
Muslim scholars have different opinions on whether or not a non-Muslim becomes a president in a Muslim country. And the understanding of a president here is related to the concept of the Caliphate. See Mujar’s paper entitles “Islamic Political Discourse on Non-Muslim Leardeship in the Muslim State”, 2009.
Those who reject non-Muslim president (and it is a dominant view), based their arguments on Surah Ali ‘Imran verse 28, Surah al-Ma’idah verse 51 and verse 57, Surah al-Mumtahanah verse 1, Surah Ali ‘Imran verse 100 and verse 118, Surah al-Mujadalah verse 22, Surah al-Nisa’ verse 141 and verse 144, Surah al-Anfal verse 73, Surah al-Taubah verse 8 and verse 71. (essentially madaniyyah verses)
Those who contend that Muslims can do so point to the universal equality of all mankind pointed out in Surah al-Hujurat verse 13 (and the makiyyah’s verses).
The contest, essentially, is the CONTEXT in which the verses were used and quoted. I quote Mujar (2009),
“The weakness of the first group, that is unable to solve the complexities in emerging and developing the life of Muslims. While the second group has liberal-contextual character, on the contrary, is able to provide an effective solution towards emerging and developing the life of Muslims. The challenge to the second group is having to face the strong rejection from Muslim intellectuals who have Islamic Law background as they will consider the second interpretation product deviates from Islamic tradition.”
Currently, the prevailing view among the ulama is “that in a normal condition Muslims in a Muslim state are prohibited to choose non-Muslim president. However, under certain emergency circumstances, for example when Muslims are under political pressure, they are allowed to choose non-Muslim president.” (Mujar, 2009). He pointed out that the liberal muslims believed that “Muslims in a Muslim country are allowed to choose a non-Muslim president under any circumstances simply because the stipulations in al-Qur’an and al-Sunnah that forbid Muslims to elect a non-Muslim president is no longer applicable in the present time.”
You must understand in our system, the task of maintaining Islam falls on the DYMM DiPertuan Agong. He is the HEAD OF STATE, not our Prime Minister. The Agong is also the leader of Islam. This is in our Constitution. You cannot chuck the Constitution away when it is convenient to you, Islam specifically forbades elevating one race over the other, mind you, so don’t go skating on thin ice.
You have to be consistent, the Constitution is brought out when you need to lecture the non-Malays, but you conveniently set it aside when it comes to the Muslims. I am also very glad you said it only applies to the TOP SPOT. We can all try to argue whether Agong or PM has the top spot, macam Chairman dengan CEO-lah?
Oh, and another small matter… SINCE WE DO NOT DIRECTLY ELECT OUR PM IN MALAYSIA, HOW CAN YOU PROPOSE THAT MUSLIMS CHOOSE A TOP MUSLIM LEADER WITHOUT PREJUDICING OTHERS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS?
I hte Nsync,
constitution though revered, is just a piece of paper. For Malays, it is meaningful if they are in power. Being in power will enable them to protect their rights as enshrined in the Constitution.
As for AlQuran and Hadis, well if you do not believe me, feel free to ask Muslims around about choosing non Muislim as leader( i am talking about Muslim majority like Malaysia, not a country like Britain with Christian tradition and Christian majority).
When I say leader, I mean the top post like the office of Prime Minister, not mere Member of Parliament.
I hateNync,
Are you angry because Muslims in Malaysia( majority of them is Malay) will only elect a Muslim as the Prime Minister.
Nobody is prejudicing others( meaning non malays or non Muslim) here. In a democratic system like Malaysia, the majority gets to appoint anyone of them into office.
Again. I notice you are rambling without a point.
Dear Shamshul,
Are you trying to slink your way out of this one again? You said that muslims cannot elect a non-muslim because that is what Islam says. I am trying to tell you that it is an assertion based on a contentious premise, and in any case, you yourself said it is ONLY for the top post.
In the caliphate system, the leader of a Muslim state is in charge of religious and secular affairs. In Malaysia, the Constitution and our forefathers had the wisdom to put the religious affairs on our Head of State, which is the Agong as the protector of Islam. There is no need for muslims or non-muslims to “vote” for a President.
Coupled with the fact that NOBODY in Malaysia votes directly for the premiership aka the PM post, your assertion that muslims in Malaysia will only “elect” a muslim as the PM is flawed. You are trying to tell me that muslims in Malaysia will only vote for muslim candidates, and if an electorate contest features both muslims and non-muslims, muslims will prioritize the muslim candidate, regardless of how credible or capable the non-muslim candidate is. This is my contention.
I rarely get angry, actually. I am just wondering why every time your untenable positions are exposed, you become evasive instead of offering evidence or arguments to back up your claims. And now, you give me the standard boiler plate response that “the majority gets to appoint anyone of them into office”. Who is THEM? Do you know what is a Parliamentary Democracy or Parliamentary System? Do you know what is a plurality voting system and a Westminister system? Do you the the differences and why party politics is so powerful in Malaysia? Are you telling me that muslims can only vote for UMNO or PAS because that’s the only two party that can lay exclusive claim to Islam and Malays (as per outlined in the Constitution)?
In Malaysia, the majority of an electorate only get to elect a representative to the Parliament. The Executive structure is hammered out among the elected members of a ruling coalition. Since UMNO has always been the leading party in BN, the PM will come from them. Are you angry because DAP or PKR could be the leading party in PR, the PM might come from them and not PAS? Are you afraid of DAP because of its dominance in PR?
I hate nsync,
No. I am not afraid of DAP actually. what I said is in line with islamic teaching.
Again. You are back into your habit of assuming. And it looks bad .
My point is very simple actually. No harm of political cooperation with non Muslims or non Muslim based party. And nothing wrong with electing non Muslims in election.
But it is a duty for Muslim to put a Muslim to lead. In Malaysian context, if BN wins, than its Chairman, this case President of BN who happen to President Of UMNO will lead.
I am not being evasive here. Rather telling you that it is as per instruction in AlQuran. If you can not accept, that is not my problem.
And if for example someone who is not a Muslim wins the election and become the Prime Minister, then Muslims see themselves to be blamed. Not other people.
“…Are you angry because DAP or PKR could be the ….
No. Actually DAP is controlling PR. It is just that Muslims( vast majority ) of them do not trust DAP. It looks “too anti Malay”.
which is for this reason alone, PAS is unable to upstage UMNO. Unlike UMNO that dominates BN ( by having more than half seat won by BN), PAS is what Malay termed as “melukut ditepi gantang”.
feel free to check about what I said on whether Muslims( Malaysians)
should elect a non Muslim as the Prime Minister.Oh forget the nomsense about direct election to choose a Prime Minister.
ask them whether it is true Muslims( i am tallking if they are majority) can elect someone who is not a Muslim as the leader. This of course does not apply in countries whereby Muslim are minority such as Singapore or Philipines.
Actually you already quote AlQuran in your previous comment. It is just that you interpret wrongly.
Dear Shamshul,
Since no one in Malaysia can elect their Prime Minister, doesn’t it make the “requirement” you stated moot?
You said that muslims in a muslim-majority state cannot elect a non-muslim to be the PM. So at least for Malaysia, we have no such problems, no? Unless you are using the “requirement” to subvert the democratic process. I recap what you said, it is “a duty for Muslim to put a Muslim to lead”. Well, since we don’t elect our PM directly, you are effectively saying that it is every muslims duty in Malaysia to vote for UMNO and BN, because it is the only coalition that can ensure that a muslim leads. Isn’t that a perversion of the democratic process? Asking people to vote on the basis of religious dogma, and a dodgy one at that? What’s the difference with your claim and PAS’s modus operandi? Bukankah ini sudah kafir-mengkafir?
I hate Nsync,
Here you go again. Making assumption.
What i said is that AlQuran prohibits Muslim to choose non Muslim as their supreme leader. Period.
However, Muslims are ordered to be friendly to non Muslims. and there is nothing wrong with coalition with non Muslims. But the leader must be Muslims..
Of course, that is possible in countries where Muslims rule. In USA, certainly no Muslim can expect to be the president of USA.
I am not dodgy. i am just saying what alQuran says.
As I said earlier, in Malaysia Muslims have themselves to blame should the political power slips from their hand.
Besides, sodomizers are not recognised as “Umat Nabi Muhammad saw” even by the Prophet himself. so, the pool from where Muslims in Malaysia can choose is quite limited. DAP on the other hand, maintains hostility with Malays. Naturally, it is not the choice for Malays .
“Bukankah ini sudah kafir mengkafir” Did I accuse PAS as non Islam . No.
PAS way is not that strange. It was used very effectively by Pope of medieval society to control European Kings. That is why PAS had been mentioning “haram untuk undi bukan Islam” for decades, ignoring pragmatism.
UMNO never says that.
Do not make big issue of of nothing. Strange is it not? DAP threatens Chinese that UMNO will take over in Penang and you make no issue out of this.
Dear Shamshul,
And I am trying to tell you that the Head of State in Malaysia is the DYMM DiPertuan Agong and we don’t need to elect him. Our Constitution spelled out who has to be muslim and malay for certain posts (i.e. Chief minister in certain states and chief state secretaries), but it remains silent on the premiership and the executive branch.
I know you are defending the rationale of muslims can only vote for a muslim leader on selective religious edicts, and I am trying to explain to you that it is a contentious area in modern Islamic fiqh. Islam IS compatible with broader universal human values, and it does not discriminate on the basis of religion. An Islamic state necessitates the Caliphate to be muslim because the position serves two roles, as both the religious and secular leader of the people. In those days, there are also no direct elections and democratic processes. Concepts and constructs evolve, and the rationale behind the Quranic message must be understood, else why do we have jurisprudence debates?
Your fixation with party politics have already bordered on assabiyah tendencies and repeating PAS’s earlier fallacies. You are free to vote for UMNO, just like how anyone is free to vote for PAS or DAP or MCA or SUPP. In fact, people should have the freedom to vote for whatever they want AND NOT HAVING TO BE THREATENED WITH VIOLENCE FOR THEIR DECISIONS. You hypothesized a coming collision and clash between the Malays and the Chinese because a majority of the latter are abandoning the BN. So what happened to one man one vote? Or that only applies when the one vote is for BN?
I think the Chinese has no problem with the Malays. LIke other malays, they have problems with the way umno is running this country, ie, rampant corruption and plundering of of nation’s wealth. Does going against Umno means racist anti Malay?
Aziz,
“..chinese has no problem…” I beg to differ. If they tolerate slandering on Malays by DAP( simply by bkeeping quiet) then they are collision course with the Malays.
Nobody is talking about going against UMNO here. What i stress is DAP is slandering UMNO and it will eventually bring Malays and Chinese battling each other
so you do not think UMNO is slandering all these while? what about the Australian Senate that NST just apologized? what was that?
plundering not an issue? stealing not an issue? is it allowed by the Almighty?
saudara, the DAP Anglophiles and Christians are the ones slandering UMNO, not the Chinese.
saudara, the Chinese are not keeping quiet. They simply think they have no reason to get involved.
saudara, the Malays and Chinese are not on a collision course. The real battle is between true Malaysians, those who favour preserving their culture, be they Malays, Chinese, Indians and our friends in Sabah and Sarawak, against the Anglophiles and Christians of the DAP and PKR.
saudara Shamshul, remember the dictum of Salvoj Zizek, the Slovenian philosopher and critical theorist : the true victory (the negation of the negation) occurs when the enemy talks your language.
saudara, if you continue to base your reasoning on the premise that the Malays and Chinese are on collision course, you are talking the language of the DAP Anglophiles, which is what they want you to do all along. (language here is not we associate as Mandarin, English and Bahasa)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Interesting line of argument. Would you also say that Umno has been talking PAS’s language and escalating the ‘arms (religion) race’? — Helen
Most certainly Helen, UMNO has been talking PAS’ language all these years and yet they (UMNO) are not even aware of it, even to this day. Which I continue to laugh, occasionally. Hahaha !
Gals/Guys, I think the exchange above is healthy for new found freedom between us if we can translate it beyond who is better.The Mahabharatha, Ramayana, Confucious, Bible and eventually the Quranic verses means nothing if it cannot translate for the betterment of humankind. I am sure all verses directs goodness but maybe along the way we get swayed and play politics as seen above everthing else rather than addressing the issues that concerns people in a multicultural soceity like Malaysia, Seriously does it matter whether it is vernacular schools or the need of a nationalized school that could solve the problem, does it matter what the holy books says even when it makes no sense in the current scenario, does it matter what religion that you imbibe, if you intend to do good for fellow humankind. Why are we fighting against each other when destination may be different but the goal is one.The reality and truth is when each one us are ready to accept it. Do defend your belief, but look back and see whether your argument holds any ground except for how you want it to be because we individually are the best to assume and presume sitting in our laurel. I am pretty sure most of us here in Helen’s Blog probably represent 10% of the semua tahu, semua boleh Malaysians yet our thoughts and our desires does not breach even 1% of the community beyond this. Sure, I am in the same bracket, but trying to improve myself, not any longer for myself, but for causes as a Malaysian as I find it Malaysians are more rational and forthcoming for another human aspect beyond race,religion and creed than the credit it is given. So My humble advise is stop bitching about Malaysians irrelevant of their origin for religion,origin even if they are 5th generation pendatang but how we can make them to embrace the Malaysian hospitality on the basis of humanity. I am sure we all know all the arguments that can be forthcoming, but is this induced because of my origin, religion,creed, political affiances or how Malaysians per se like me can think for our fellow brethen when and if the need arises.
I actually think it is important that we engage and understand each other’s positions and where they sprang from. We hold more similarities than differences, and A LOT OF proof we use are really excuses selectively chosen to suit/justify our position (ex-post or ex-ante?). How many people arrive at a conclusion after carefully balancing the facts and reality of a situation? We are not trying to convince people who do not share our opinions to cross-over, we are trying to point out that for the lack of a better word, people can disagree with us on different grounds. How can a muslim make non-muslims understand Islam as a way of life when they do not subscribe to the tenets of a monotheistic religion? Pope John Paul once said that REASON is the bridge to faith or interfaith, the way I see it, and he is absolutely correct. If you put forth your justifications based on dogma, then it will take a blind leap of faith to accept them. There are certain things that are beyond the realm of human reason, but I don’t think self governance (as in the way we govern ourselves as a people) is one of them.
Malaysian in New York,
The problem with these 5th generation pendatang( borrowing your terminology) is that they simply refuse to integrate or accept reality that the way forward is mixing and mingling together.
Nobody is chiding them simply because their forefather were immigrants. But do try to integrate with the rest of Malaysians. One question that nobody is able to disagree is that separate school literally separates us.
Let us be honest here. The seeds of separation starts with separate school system. Let us not kid ourselves. That is the reality. That is the elephant in room.
What is so diificult about this. Nobody is denying about right to learn or practise one’s mother tounges.
No need to be hipocrite here. The one who cries out loud about wanting to be known as Malaysian ONLY are ussually the one who is the most resistent to one school concept.
For that reason, Malays generally feel DAP is hypocrite. They insist on “Malaysian Malaysia” but refuse a system of school where is not separated by race.
AHMAD IBRAHIM,
Read what i said clearly. I never said Chinese is against the Malays. What i said if they tolerate nonsense from DAP that thrives and RELEVANT only by slandering UMNO and waging war against the Malays, then they are the one facing the brunt.
Meaning if they are perceived to tacitly approve the DAP style, sooner or later there will be collision course with Malays. The result would be the same.
DAP is pushing the limit. DAP is testing the patience to the limit. It is a matter of time when the patience is gone.
What I mean pushing the limit? Like threatening the very foundation of Islam by insisting on Christian be allowed( all the sudden) the word “Allah”.
By consistently smearing like police or SPRM. By questioning why prominent position is given to Islam with regards to Federal fund. Or simply by questioning Malay rights as enshrined in Constitution.
As for your claim UMNO is taking PAS language, the way I see it it is PAS that finally recognise wisdom of alliance with non mUslims that constitute approximately 40% of population.
But unlike PAS, UMNO is not willing to sell akidah for votes. Whatever mistakes it made, it still not hypocrite. UMNO at least is sincere enough to realize that sharing the name “Allah” with Christianity will EVENTUALLY lead to one thing: that future generation of Muslims will likely to think that both Christianity and Islam are “sama saja”. That alone will lead to Syirik( the biggest mistake deemed a muslim can made).
But for “habuan di dunia”, PAS is willing to sacrifice “akidah”, knowing well that it shakes the very foundation of religion.
As for Malays, if they tacitly approve PAS, then be prepared to accept the prospect of future generation of Muslims be confused with the basic notion of Islam. No if . No but. As simple as that.
By saying the above, I am not saying the current govt is “angel”. It does make mistakes. But certainly the mistakes it made are “pale” in comparison with PAS, a party that plays God all times or DAP that only reason to exist is to perpetuate Lim Dynasty and nothing else.
Shamsul, you should stop regurgitating yourself just on your belief alone as you alone don’t make the community. It is okay to have your opinion, but you need to find a middle ground where we can compromise and move ahead for humnatiy sake. Sure PR is screwed up in its current state, so was UMNO and their mandores for the last 55 years. Why absolve UMNO now for how PR behaves these days. Is it politics or it seriously genuine what humanity seeks in Malaysia amongst her subjects. We can go around bitching about UMNO and PR, but what is the solution, if ourselves run an agenda? Shamsul, you don’t need examples if we ourselves cannot be an example for how we can actually acknlowdge the shortfalls and dire strait situation of certain segment of the community that needs addressing as oppose to be like how we have always been.
“…refuse to integrate or accept reality that the way forward is mixing and mingling together.”
– Shamshul
However, I think the truth is that schools are just one of the avenue of differences, and the larger gap is in socio-political and economic domains. The idea of SSS is more on putting Malaysian students of all races together, and there was no specifically hostility against education in mother tongue in early stages. I also don’t think many non-Malays in Malaysia refuse to integrate or believe in a future of ethnic separation. We survived calls for partition in the early formation of the federation, and there is only one future for all of us, together.
We must remember that claims of police violence or brutality is not something new, and came from Malaysians of all races. There IS room for improvement. We must be objective, while we should chide the slanderers and detractors of the force, we must convince our men in uniform that they must do more to preserve their professionalism and image (i.e. more official recordings).
As for the notion of testing limits and pushing the boundaries, let me say this, and I am not saying this on behalf of DAP – there are a lot of interfaith matters that have been resolved behind closed doors over the years, out of public view because the intention was not to let the majority felt offended (for any concessions) or the minority felt oppressed (for any compromises). The reason why it becomes out in the open today because elements of Islamization in the government have been growing steadily. Such developments do not go unnoticed and are not easily ignored or set aside. Whether it is Bangsa Malaysia, Malaysian Malaysia or Malaysian Firsters, semuanya cubaan untuk mengajak rakyat melihat dengan lebih luas dan jauh daripada persepsi sempit kita dari segi etnik, jantina, umur atau daerah asal. Jangan kerana kita taaksub dengan sesuatu maka kita buta mata dan hati ke arah kebenaran.
I hate Nsyc,
As i said earlier, separate school separates us. Separated from Malay students during informative years in vernacular that does not give attention to the national language, these students are unable to conduct simple conversation in Malay.
The fact is for all to see. My daughter told me how those from vernacular schools feel awkward to start conversation as they are not proficient in Malay.
But you are right. I believe it is not the intention of Chinese students not to mix with non Chinese. it is chauvinist DAP that objects strongly the Chinese students from mixing with others. And what better way than having separate schools. Why is it that Malaysia has the only peculiar system in this planet that literally divides us. Are you saying Chinese in Singapore or UK are denied rights because there are no vernacular school based on race?
No wonder generally Malays do not trust Chinese( with due respect and no insult intended). “Pasal sekolah Cina dia nak sampai langsung tak mahu bertolak ansur. Tetapi dia bising kenapa mesti ada kateogari Melayu, cina , India dalam borang. Ini sikap gergaji dua mata. Dia bising cakap kita perkauman. Siapa yang perkauman. Siapa yang bagi gaji rendah pada Melayu hanya kerana orang itu Melayu”, one Malay politician told me.
As for police brutality, please do not be blind to the fact that no violence will take place if these protesters have one quality:BERSIH HATI. If the intention is good, then they will accept the venue in Stadium. why the need to go to Dataran Merdeka if not to provoke and challenge the police?
And these protesters are not angel. I saw how one rude protesters being put into proper place by a foreign jourmnalist who chided in Malay. Serve her right for being “biadap”.
BERSIH 3 is all about Anwar Ibrahim. BERSIH 3 is the last “talian hayat” for him as he is upset that the Malays begin to realise how useless he is.
But of course, he is useful those who want to weaken the Malays. So, it is not surprising to hear that now Mohd Sabu or PAS supports him when in 1997, MOhd sabu challenged dr Mahathir to dismiss Anwar.
And who can forget Karpal said anwar is a sodomist in Parliament. But of course, he has short memory on this.
saudara Shanshul,
you don’t look like someone who is against the DAP Anglophiles. In fact, the more I read your postings, the more i believe that either 1, you’re a DAP cybertrooper masquerading as someone who is trying to maintain the status quo, or 2, you don’t understand the meaning behind Salvoj Zizek’s dictum of talking the enemy’s language. Oh yes, if you don’t understand, read this again and again. Here : the true victory (the true negation of the negation) occurs when the enemy talks your language.
Oh and by the way, if you’re a DAP cybertrooper sent here to provoke mass agitation, you’re doing a nice job. Nice try. But as I’ve said, you may look and sound like someone who’s a Malay trying to defend the community, but as the saying goes, looks can be misleading, and by the same token, sounds can be misleading too. You look and sound too good to be someone who is against the DAP. You are too good to be true.
Ahmad ibrahim,
I take it from your name you are a Muslim. As such someone must have told you about the sin of “prasangka buruk”.
No. I am not DAP cybertrooper. I may not be perfect but someone who is still with “iman”. i would not become an ally to a party that wages war against Malays.
You do not even know me. So do not assume . It looks bad on you.
I am writing here to remind everybody how dangerous to dance to tune of DAP. Only know we do not realise how cruel these “yahudi” can be. Because they are not in power yet..
Rather than wasting time looking for imaginary image in me, why not digest what i said. I am not paranoid. I am not anti Chinese. rather, defending the right of Malays in ways that I could.
Whether I am too good to be true, that is irrelevant. The more important question is whether true about my allegation on racist DAP.