Posted in DAPster

Republic of Singapore North?

Regular reader Goondoo shared a radical idea.

He suggested:

“I think the best way to resolve these Chinese dilemma is to let them move en masse to Penang while the Malays, Mamaks and Indians of Penang moved to other part of Malaysia.”

“Apa macam setuju tak dengan cadangan ‘brilliant’ saya ni?”

(original comment here)

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Updated: It’s happened before in Cyprus. The Muslim Cypriots moved from the Greek part of the island to the part of the island under Turkey, and the Christian Cypriots moved in the opposite direction. Population exchange agreement under the United Nations, here.

Update #2: Does Dear Leader think Penang is a separate country. See here, photo (4).

I was looking at Buletin Mutiara just now. The entire magazine is filled with photos of Kim Guan Eng.

To the Chinese, he and DAP can do no wrong.

While other Malaysians are aware that Kim was jailed for sedition – in the course of his political assassination of Rahim Thamby Chik and Umno – the DAPsters still insist he went to prison to defend the honour of a Malay girl.

It just goes to show how far apart is the thinking between the Chinese and the other races.

An example of tidak sehati sejiwa is the former Yugoslavia, which is now several different new countries.

And it’s quite true that Malaysian Chinese are always looking to Singapore in praise and saying why can’t we be more like that southern island republic?

The distance between Kuala Lumpur and Kota Kinabalu is 1,622km. The distance between Penang and Singapore is only 608km.

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Actually if we look at the map of the world, not all parts of a country need necessarily be contiguous.

When the Indian sub-continent was partitioned by the departing British Raj, they created West Pakistan and East Pakistan (Bangladesh).

Alaska is separated from the main body of the USA, as is their 50th state Hawaii.

Gaza and West Bank do not share a border despite both territories aspiring to form one Palestine.

Greenland, which is a territory of Denmark, is considered to be geographically part of North America.

The United Kingdom has the Falkland Islands which is off the shore of Argentina.

Christmas Island, a non-self governing territory of Australia, is nearer Jawa Indonesia than it is to Australia.

Spain, Portugal and Italy are in continental Europe but they have island possessions.

The Netherlands has several islands in the Caribbean.

Japan has tropical islands administered by a sub-prefecture of Tokyo.

There are many other examples like these from around the world.


Is there anything in this country that makes DAPsters happy?



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244 thoughts on “Republic of Singapore North?

  1. People who aspire to be more Singaporean should go ahead and move to their Zion. Or perhaps their applications have already been rejected by the Govt of Singapore…

  2. i somehow agreed with the above suggestion. Such a brilliant suggestion. We will see the Penang will be much more greener, free from bribery, have strong currency (they might be using dollar instead of ringgit), perfect election system, and has the best administrative system among the rest of the world.

  3. Chinese in Penang and Malacca tore up their Malaysian passports thinking they’re British Overseas Citizens (see news report, here).

    Also a lawyer’s explanation on the dual nationality BOC quirk which was a loophole created during Merdeka for the two Straits Settlement states.

    1. I met a singaporean (chinese, of course) in Mid east who is an avid reader of Malaysian politics. He went into details about the panda name controversy, Bersih, and of course Rosmah’s necklace.

      The Singaporeans are really interested in taking over Malaysia, and the DAPsters welcome it.

      What happened to the allegations that singaporean govt officials attended Bersih rally?

      1. Singapore cannot take care of 4 million people excluding their foreign talents.. under the surface singapore socially is more challenging thanks to the PAPist pro alien policy.. everyday you see confrontations between SG and PR/foreign talents they fight for every hdb flat and space on their stupid MRT and they say malaysia personal transport are jealous of them… what a joke

        Singapore may boast low corruption but that is just perception and the government is not transparent…. singkies dont know for example why they get measly 2.5 percent from cpf while EPF can manage 6+ percent because the GIC and temasek are not transparent in how they invested the cpf funds, as a country with no resources, the surpluses of the singapore human resource becomes the backbone of temasek hence the losses of temasek or the gic are socialized…. that is why cpf limits withdrawal to measly annuities, not lump sum withdrawal at 55 like in malaysia.

        Who needs corruption one single moron none other than LHL wife ho ching lost about sg$50 billion from investing in the likes of lehman brod and bank of america, at least bribes in malaysia stay in the internal economy… singapore gambled billions abroad.. hahaha.. so dont extol the virtues of singapore.. the masses there have nothing to show but a shoe box flat that cost almost a million dollars, stagnant wages and crowded mrt… they have SIA but most singaporeans cant afford to ride it.

    2. Pretty dumb morons.

      Helen, you know many malaysian chinese have reputation of overstaying in australia by disappearing into tasmania working as farmhands or asian businesses that exploit them… it’s a perennial event that aussie police catch malaysian chinese with the likes of afghani and indian illegal immigrants.. pretty pathetic.. my friend in melbourne reported how one malaysia chinese owned shop was closed indefinitely for employing illegal malaysian immigrants…. he was sued till bankruptcy.

      These anglophiles look so much at the anglo lands that treated them like garbage if they dont have the money or skiils…speaking english and being christian is not enuff

      You won’t find mara or malay jpa students do such things.. we rather go back to malaysia with our bumi privileged rm2000/month graduate salary even with overseas degrees or slogging in government hospitals and non bumi students dare call malay doctors 2.0 CGPA graduates??

      1. Chinese grad with mostly honor 3.5GPA. Camne gred lebih kurang je kalau tak pass around soalan dan jawapan exam among them.

  4. Helen / Goondoo,

    Penang belongs to Kedah Sultanate. Still is up to now… And after what has happened to S’pore, I am positively sure it will never happen, or hell will break loose…

    Temasik once belonged to Johor? — Helen

    1. Hi Helen;

      Tak sangka my 2 sen comments are worthy to be highlighted. My comments were meant to be a sarcasm to the DAP lovers.

      I am a nationalist. No way I will allow an inch of this Malay land to be seceded at any cost. The spirit of Dato Bahaman, Mat Kilau and Tok Gajah inside me will never allow this thing to happen.Never!

      1. you can relax. penang will continue to be a state of malaysia.

        but interesting to see your comentt brought out a lot of the paranoid right wing racists that live in this forum. some of them even took your joke seriously

    2. helen ,you think the johor sultanate have no legal standing to claim singapore????… emmmm you really think so.

      1. Saya kira penentuan status P. Pinang yang lebih menarik.

        Mengikut Zakiah Hanum (mantan ketua pengarah Arkib Negara), “pulau itu menjadi tempat perkelahan dan padang permainan raja-raja Kedah bersemayam” … “Pulau Pinang telah dipajak daripada kerajaan negeri Kedah dalam tahun 1786 (tahun Francis Light mendarat) oleh Syarikat Hindia Timur dan selepas itu dalam tahun 1800, kawasan Seberang Prai dipajak pula sebagai kawasan tambahan”.

        ‘Royalti’ sebanyak RM10,000 dibayar kepada Sultan Kedah untuk P. Pinang (pulau) setiap tahun hingga kini. Bukankah bayaran ini bermaksud P. Pinang masih kepunyaan Kedah?

        Hong Kong pada akhirnya juga telah dipulangkan kepada China bukan?

      2. yes helen, penang is clearly belongs to sultan of kedah. that why when sivarasa ( if i am not wrong) made a plea for the sultan to cease collection of this payment, the Dapster showed their hand and intentions.

        Of course LKY has already said “dont work we teach you how”, plan one scuttle and now for plan two.

        Plan two is the scenic route , dear . sit back and watch.

      3. Helen , you think the 65 separation does not come with any strings attach?,

        Of course not many know, even i was unconvinced of this until what an uncle of mine said 25 year before, happened. sorry can’t say any more. Like the Transformers movie tagline … there is more than that meet the eye.

        S’pore lasted only 2 years in M’sia. Too destabilizing? — Helen

  5. Helen,

    No. Temasek (singapore) cant be compared with Penang. Penang is still actually belonging to sultanate of kedah. Way back centuries ago, then Sultan only leased the island, not renouncing sovereignty to British.

    While then Sultan of johore had renounced the sovereignty of Singapore (selling singapore to British.

    The only way to have DAP taking over Malaysia is by toppling UMNO. Yes UMNO. It is UMNO that stands between DAP and its dream of “Lim Dynasty”.

    For the Malays, maybe it’s time to saviour for the last time with regards to the pleasure of ruling a country. Once political power is gone, it will “gone with the wind’. And everythings that comes along with it. The first thing to go is Raja raja.

    1. Not when I am still alive. I will direct my comrades from Hamas, Chechenya, Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Muslim fighters from southern Thailand, Mindanao and Indonesia to retake Malaysia and ship out all the opposition leaders and supporters to the high seas. We will leave them high and dry there. Then Malaysia will truly become a peaceful and prosperous country. And reach developed nation status.

      1. Can’t really leave people high and dry on the high seas, my friend. But your sentiment is duly noted. I would go the extra mile and outlaw politics altogether.

      2. sshn, if you read hussin’s comment abuot sarawak the only thing big about him is his mouth, ugly face, and unwarranted self importance.

  6. Temasek belonged to johor but british treachery created another sultan from a disgruntled prince and literally took the island from him…. unlike penang… the british negotiated directly with kedah sultanate, hence it is true penang island is part of kedah.

    The penang wet dream of becoming another singapore is impossible given its demography and physical limitation, it’s still largely malay, hence a referendum will be difficult and the infrastructure is owned by the feds or GLC like penang bridge and power plants and rapid penang.. which is a good and sly strategy by BN ..if they go separate ways, malaysia still dictate their affairs and i bet with only the island, penang will eventually hits the ceiling of its economic potential and at best become a pirate cove tax free haven for the billionaires and build casinos for money laundering which will make penang too expensive for ordinary people.. like expensive and deceptive singapore.. hahaha

  7. You forgot to put cocos island like christmas island largely malay population administered by australia, the native malays are subjected to anglophile policies such as prohibited from speaking their malay dialect and the students actually being fined if found speaking malay in public schools.. MAS have charteed flights to the cocos as they have malaysian roots, most cocos malays were exiled malays who fought against british imperialism, but the natives stick to the small island and rarely go to the australian mainland except a few who work in the mining industry as laborers because they have a sense of belonging to that island.. bet these BOC morons curse and swear for not being a cocos malay…

    1. Go ahead and invite Cocos Malays to come back and get all the previleges in Malaya+Sarawak+Sabah. If CPF is giving 2% interest, why not Sinland Malays come migrate to North?

  8. Their ambition has finally surfaced….
    sheep’s skin may be disrobed with true wolf skin revealed

  9. Brilliant idea but not so original as I have thought of that too about four years ago. But instead of Penang, the area the Chinese should move to is a large part of Sarawak.

    The Chinese cannot take Penang because Penang still belongs to Kedah. Instead let all the Chinese (excepting Helen) move to a big part of Sarawak and leave not one Chinese behind in the peninsula or in Sabah.

    That means every Chinese must leave Penang, Selangor, Negeri Sembilan, Pahang, Johor, Melaka, Perlis and all the other states in the peninsula. They must carry everything and must not leave anything behind. Some of them can stay on in Kelantan, Terengganu and Kedah because the Chinese there are not so kiasu.

    In return for giving them another ‘state’ in Sarawak, majority of the Iban, Bidayuh and Kelabit people from Sarawak can move, own properties and work in the semenanjung. The Chinese in their new land can even merge their part of Sarawak with Singapore and call it another country…say Singatong…tong meaning tongsan. Brilliant idea, isn’t it?

    1. Bro…don’t lah be like that. Maybe if I “duduk pokok pisang” then I will be allowed to stay back where I am. I don’t like to travel far lah.

      BTW, not true to say Malaysian Chinese “always looking to Singapore in praise”. Not all, anyway, for me and my large circle of friends are Singapore haters! We also don’t give chance to cars bearing Singapore number plates on the road!

  10. Dear Helen,

    What say you about 200,000 Malaysian Chinese applied to be Singapore Citizen? There also many dual Malaysia-Singapore (Chinese) Citizens….please do some research on this matter.

  11. Husin Rahmn,

    now my dear. Be critical. Not paranoid. This is not a Chinese bashing forum.

    I am critical of DAP. I criticize Chinese who irritate Malays by keeps saying how unfairly they are treated in Malaysia WHEN they simply refuse to integrate with others( non chinese),

    But i am not anti Chinese per se. Surely you must be joking about transferring Chinese to sarawak or transferring bidayuh to semenanjung.


    What mind conceive, it can be achieved. Exactly 100 years ago, Arabs never dream that in one generation, they would lose their land to Jews. Yes. They never dreamt that. They were then safe as they were part of Ottoman Empire. But once the Empirre collapsed, suddenly Arab bedoiun came to contact with Jews. These Arabs have no experience in dealing with Jews as before this their rights, security were handled by the ottomans.

    The malays will face the same thing. They still refuse ( especially these so called mahasiswa) to accept that how cruel DAP is. Why? because they are ruled by UMNO.

    Should UMNO no longer there, suddenly Malays will encounter DAP. Yes DAP that replaced the authority once held by UMNO. Then we will realise how badly you are treated simply because you are malays.


    Once the political power is gone, it will be gone forever. So. get real. Stop dreaming of shipping Chechya fighters to fight for you. They are themselves busy and have so much on their plates.

    FOr PAS members who still do not realise that everyone else know they are dreaming, continue dreaming that you keep DAP in your rein. PAS is feeding DAP with power. PAS is feeding DAP , the power crazy dynasty. It will be soon that DAP will turn into monster.

    1. I beg to differ, why compare us to lame arabs and bedouins who are pathetic and a confused lot? malays are never confused, for example we accepted islam for centuries but with common sense rejected hand-chopping hudud.

      Unlike wretched arabia, the nusantara never completely fell into western hands thanks to geographical nuisance, organized malay/bugis kingdoms that can fight back and seafaring skills of the nusantara people, hence malay sultanates and bugis pirates were able to blockade western outposts like malacca portuguese (blockade for 100 years and penang blockaded by kedah leading to food shortages) and bugis brigands disrupting dutch shipping lanes and slicing off dutch ears and making their women into slaves ….

      hence i dun believe all this nonsense that we are like being preyed in by jews.. the chinese are not jews and never attacked us…. cheng ho sailed with his 300 ships never claimed a single territory in SEA while albuquerque with his damned 12-plus ships burned down malacca…

      Now.. is DAP the cheng ho fleet or albuquerque despicable fleet? Of course the latter…… as for the non anglophile chinese… we could run towards them and make trade with them just as our ancestors would have done when they saw cheng ho 300 ship armada… if we can find common ground which i believe we can.

      1. You do not really understand Islam if you reject hudud. I can and will do what is right for the country. Remember, one man can start a revolution.

    2. shamshul anuar, good points there.

      One just have to look at the future and while taking full advantage of the opportunities which abound in our beloved countries, a normal rakyat would also have to recognise and contain the internal and external threats.

      Malays have to be clear on their strengths and weaknesses in order to steer safely ahead in the new centuries. More so when the world is now full challenges ala 16th centuries colonisation in view of dwindling natural energy resources.

      Look beyond oneself. Think of the children and future generations to come.

      Future regrets may not alter or undo any losses incurred by any acts of whimsical and emotional gamble based on solely on empty rhetoric skills or short term greed.

      All in all, one has to wary of any overly pretentious,hypocrite and friendly people whom is out to fool the victims for a grand takeover scam by using whatever means available.

      Good example is that many still fall victims to the internet scams although being warned countless times by the media

    3. For the DAP supporters and sympathisers who think PAS is an ally, see how the Egyptian presidential election turned out…

      See this comic to understand your potential fate

      1. OB, but the majority of comenters here are peddling stories like how malaysia will become a republic, sultans will be dethroned, penang will become north singapore, malays will be made into slaves in their own country, malaysia becomes christian/hindu country, etc.

        so which is which?

        even in best case, pas or dap can get no more than 40-50 seats each. each of the two will have less than 25% of parliament. so all this karut marut talk about malaysia turning into communist china or taliban afgahnistan is rubbish

        and then, you have the sabah n sarawak parties who have very different outlook than semenanjung

      2. It turned out fine actually. But clearly SCAF will not surrender power to the democratically elected President. If anything I’m expecting the courts to rule the election invalid just like they dissolved parliament. And that comic was probably drawn by disgruntled Neo-Cons in America who are not happy that the people didn’t choose a Mubarak loyalist to be President.

  12. Forrescat,

    no. i did not say Chinese are equivalent of Jews. I am not anti chinese.

    I was just reminding Malays not to fall into trap the way Arabs experienced 100 years ago. As i see that the Malay predicament is not that “dissimilar: to that the Arabs.

    And i am not blaming Chinese for whatever ill Malays are experiencing. The decisions that Malays themselves made today will have bearing on future generations.

    the Malays, after centuries were disunited, THANKFULLY united at a very crucial moment of their history. They resisted Malayan Union that is devoid of Malay monarchy order by the Empire that just won a war.

    Had the Malays in their traditional underestimating attitude of any problems kept quiet, today they maybe mere servants to British Crown. But fought they did , albeit on diplomatic scale. And they got the country back from British.

    AGAIN, Malays are at a juncture. They are pushed against the wall( no thanks to PAS selling Islam and anwar wanting to be PM) . They are made to think that it is respectful for Christians to use the word “Allah”.

    They (the malays) do not wish to take the effort of telling genuine non malay friends that the issue rocks the very foundation of islam.. Even I without any power manages to make my Christians friends realize how this mere word ( ALLAH) is about the very foundation of Islam, not just a language issue.

    Many Malays are dreaming that their fate are secured even if DAP takes over. How wrong they can be. Many malays think PAS will be leading the Govt should PR takes over.

    Yes sir. They can dream on. They still dream even Allah SWT is showing them “PREVIEW” of Malaysia if PR takes over.

    Suddenly stalls owned by malays were demolished simply because they are malays. Yes sir. It happened no less in pandan perdana, selangor. Of course the infamous treatment centers on Penang.

    Sewage from pig farm is diverted to Malay kampung. and yes. Temptation is also great in a state ruled by PAS. A very big Chinese cemetary was built right on Malay area in Sg kob, kedah despite many protests.

    The result is the same. Malay villagers are cursing the state Govt, wishing even MB death.

    So, what differs the Malays from Arabs taken by promise made by Britrish and French 100 years ago.

    1. Never mind, not attacking you, just a reminder so that we do not become the mindless zombies which are the dapster hordes with their collective hatred of umno driving their forums and malaysiakini into a cohesive bashing of umno or us malays..

      It’s just that we really need to put our foot down and identify the real people that can threaten the country.. it could be the DAP or even the hand chopping PAS….. but we really need to avoid over generalization… i also have my fits, but nowadays, i just sit quiet and avoid making comment when my blood boils due to politics.

      1. Hello fellow Malaysian, you say ” I will make sure that DAP will not take over Putrajaya. That is my promise to all right thinking Malaysians”.

        Apalah brother, kalau hendak satu tujuian kena bukan kehendak diri tapi apa yang waras disekalian untuk apa yang patut. Ini bukan soal politik tapi apa yang patut sebagai satu masyarakat tanpa keasasan yang mengenipekan keperimanusian tanpa megira keasalan sesama kita ini. Faham tak!!!

  13. Forrestcat,

    Yes. sir. Be critical not prejudice. An apt reminder to everyone especially these extremists

  14. Dear Helen,

    The Chinese in my view has a grand strategy in many things and Singaporeanization of Penang is the long term plan. Being Anglophile and Christian is the main criteria as these set them apart from less modern and less politically sophisticated chinese bretheren.

    To be working with “corrupt, self grandising, total loyality to royal houses and backward Islamising” Malay is so unappealing to Anglophile Christian Chinese that the total break is a must. Nevertheless they must muster the support of all chinese to make their wet dream materialised.

    The support with total abandonment of MCA and singular support of DAP prior to the next election has been achieved through careful strategy with the support of Chinese media and Chinese Educationist Ultra stoking the fire of Chinese population. The planned strategy has gone through the following stages without the majority chinese population realising what is happening.

    1. First achieved by highlighting the minor grievences and inconvenience of Chinese population into major shared grievances, siege mentality and highlighting it to be all consuming reason to be united. Never mind the economic superiority, exclusive education policy and top of heap position in the society …the chinese deserve more, so the mantra goes.

    2. MCA is always in perpetual disarray, it was always created to be that way. One side with Anglophile air to it and the other with strong traditional longings and set value that must be uphold at any cost. Volatile mix must have an cohesive factor … money and how to create more of it is the factor. MCA or similar old Chinese society existence was important as it used to provide link to Malay Government/Royal (in old historical days).

    Chinese in old China in any locality always had a society to deal with ever changing Dynasty representative so the local chinese just adopt their old traditional method suited to local needs in Old Malaya. And the time has come to break that subservient mentality and anything that related to that – MCA is that old redundant value.

    3. The new feeling of economic opportunity exuberence amongst chinese coincide with the awakening of Sleeping Dragon i.e. China Economic Superpower. Now the Chinese feel that their economic superiority and its continuity in Malaysia would depend less on their relationship to Malay dominated government but more by hotwiring their old links with Chinese from China. This new economic independence best translated by killing off the subservient and recessive gene of MCA that served them well but of no longer of any use in current economic climate.

    4. How to kill MCA? Adopt old chinese strategy lo!! With the Chinese Educationist Ultra and Chinese media in cahoots, they promote a known incompetence leader into MCA.

    Chinese are traditionalist people in every sense. They hold to their traditionalist view no matter wherever they reside on earth. With that in mind, the strategic formulating team in this group chosed the MCA leader through their persuasive means on general chinese population.

    In current leader of MCA, you find a leader who threw all the family value out the window. Anglophile in every sense and a leader that is non-combative enough (poor political kungfu skill) in dealings with UMNO.

    5. Old chinese strategy in war liken this to throwing decaying and poisonous corpse into a strong castle. After a failed siege to a well defended castle that provided the security and peace to their subjects, loyal population of castle must be made to think and voluntarily abandon the castle on their own.

    Using dictatorial means by harping on racist views would propped up Malay antanae and result in racial unrest in Malaysia thus this method was not the best choice … given Malay aversion towards Bintang Tiga history, this taught the Strategist that it was not best strategy to adopt.

    6. This decaying corpse had made the castle population thinking into the need to abandon the castle in drove. By these the strategist in Ultra Educationist and Chinese Media had successfully made the Chinese to think that they must realign their moral compass back to their dear old traditional value of filial piety and respect of elders that MCA has totally abandon by choosing the sort of leaders.

    7. The escaping castle population (ex-MCA) do not need a great leader but just a decent leader would do.. LGE suit the bill (comparing the two) and the the plan to place Chinese on one side of the fence has been achieved.

    8. My theory hold true because the Chinese in heartland of Malay in Kelantan and Trg still hold steadfast to MCA as they assess their surroundings and agreed to the reality of their surrounding and the need to continue cooperation with Malay government.

    9. The pride of being Chinese coincide with emergence of Dragon economic power. The chinese strategist in Malaysia feel that it’s about time that they themselves representing Chinese in Malaysia in dealings with Chinese government rather than Malay dominated government. In so doing they want to be on their knees to show their loyalty to Chinese government. The Malay are not kowtowing enough and that’s is not good for their economy.

    10. To these strategist the idea of a Sovereign nation is not as important as continuous economic power… sharing economic cake is far from their mind.

    And of course this is view of a malay writing who doesn’t understand Chinese!!


    I think CSL is a capable general. Unfortunately, he does not have able lieutenants and hardly any foot soldiers. As for the other camp gaining strength, yup. We can see the Twit Meter numbers going up and up. — Helen

    1. This is a brilliant and correct analysis and conclusion by Muhammad Hashim. Wish all Malays/Muslims in Malaysia would read this and understand the dangers and fate awaiting them. That’s why I hate the Pas leaders and followers so much. They are so blinkered to have trusted the DAP and been duped by these unMalaysians. DAP, many of whom are former communists, since day one, are out to enslave the Malays and Muslims in Malaysia.

  15. All in all, Singapore is created (intentionally or otherwise) for a good reason and as a lesson to the Malays i.e. why “most” Chinese can’t be trusted when it comes to power. Even if you give them the whole country, it still won’t be enough for them, as they will find way to drive you out. Pulau Pinang is the latest example. Hak orang lain sibuk la dia orang menyalak suruh dikongsi bersama, bila tiba hak dia mati hidup balik pun dia tak akan lepaskan. .

  16. Since we are talking about history, what ever happened to the Lost City of Kota Gelanggi Archeological Find in Johore. Why did the government in 2006 distort facts on this just like our history book that we have on Parameswara. I am sure I am being crictical here not prejudice on facts and history rather than how it is fanned according to the political flavor.

    1. Since nobody wants to respond to me on this Kota gelanggi, can I respond to myself? As usual we will hide the truth and reality and hope that politically everything will be assuaged to fit the agenda. No!!! Can’t understand why we keep avoiding the truth and reality if we can be Malaysians for one another without distorting facts and history.

      I am sure we don’t need 1Malaysian or Malaysian First if we can accept and deal with what is truthful and the the reality amongst us for each other as Malaysians irrespective of our origin. I need a job being the dish-washing Apek in Chinatown in NY, can the Malaysian government hire me to enhance how to feel as s a Malaysian irrespective of my origin?

      You don’t like NY, meh? — Helen

      1. Hi MINY;

        The truth… Anything that you know that you like to share with us. Is it about Parasmaswera was an Hindu prince converted to Islam. I knew about this when I study Sejarah long time ago.

        On Kota Gelanggi,. Is it about this place being a bastion of Hindu or Buddhist influence long time ago before the native Malays converted to Islam.

        Or is it one professor from University of Singapore had postulated that Kota Gelanggi was formely ruled by a Chinese emperor under the Sung dynasty long before the native Malays landed in the Malay peninsular. It was also reported by this learned professor that the Malays had migrated from China Yunnan province …Kah..Kah..Kah.. I am smiling while I am typing this.

  17. Helen,

    CSL is a capable leader. what MCA fails to do is to tell point blank to the chinese that practicality, reality and wisdom dictates that they must cooperate with the Malays .

    DAP had been painting to chinese community that all Chinese based part that ally with UMNO are selling Chinese interest. What it refuses to tell the Chinese is that UMNO’s dominance is earned by virtue of UMNO getting the lion share of Malay votes, the largest etnic group in Malaysia.

    Even in Penang, the only state with Chinese population is almost equal to Malays, UMNO still manages to get 11 seats DESPITE the so call Tsunami. So, who are moron to think that Gerakan should have more influence than UMNO.

    Gerakan may get the Chairmanship of penang BN but it is UMNO that make BN relevant in Penang. So, naturally UMNO has more influence. Nobody in UMNO is stopping Gerakan from earning more influence than UMNO in Penang. Just go and get seats in election.

    DAP is fond of saying MCA does not stand up to UMNO. Stand up on what? Has UMNO not taken care of Chinese interests? Has UMNO being so cruel to Chinese?

    UMNO behaves like “big boss” because it is the Boss in BN. Nothing to be embarrased about it. If not for UMNO, MCA, Gerakan and MIC are in museum now.

    UMNO does not need to cry out loud insisting to be treated as the the dominant party in BN. It is treated as the dominant party by other parties in BN simply because more than half of seats won by BN are by UMNO.

    The ony reason why DAP vilifies UMNO day in day out is simply because it is the only party that stands between DAP and creating ever lasting “lim Dynasty” in federal Govt.

    And many Chinese think they can votes UMNO out. Maybe. Or maybe they votes themselves out of Federal govt.


    Re: “Umno behaves like ‘big boss’ because it is the Boss in BN.” Yes. So imagine for a moment that you Shamshul are a Chinese. How would you appraise your future in M’sia? — Helen

    1. Politically, Economically or Socially?

      Will it as bad as in the Malays in Singapore to PAP and the present Malays in Pulau Pinang to DAP?

      The Chinese won’t have any future at all since UMNO will remain the “Boss”?

      So what will make the Chinese happiest?

      Jaga hati dan perasaan kami wahai semua orang UMNO dan Melayu tapi pada masa yang sama kami orang-orang cina boleh cakap apa saja tentang kamu?

      1. LOL,

        What kind of feelings do you reckon DAP is amplifying among the Chinese that the party is now getting the estimated 80-90% electoral support?

        If feelings can be successfully whipped up commensurate to this level of intensity of solid support, then the DAP persuasion must be built on some pretty potent stuff.

        Politicians amplify on beliefs that are already held.

        e.g. a Malay demagogue who wants the conservative Malay votes may tell his audience that the Chinese plan to turn Malaysia into a republic (angle: threat to Islam) which at the same time will cause the monarchy to be abolished (angle: this will no more be a ‘Malay land’) since the rulers are Raja-raja Melayu who symbolize daulat Melayu.

        Like how modern Anglophile Singapore history starts with Stamford Raffles.

        So if the Malay politicians peddle certain lines (my examples above) to push the buttons, what type of lines do you think the Chinese demagogue will use? (The Sibu by-election is a good study of tactics).

        Do you agree that Chinese sentiments are now the strongest compared to the last few decades?

        If you want to understand the situation better and expand your perspective to become multi-faceted, you have to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. Hence the framing of my reply to Shamshul.

  18. Helen

    You basically have answered all the questions based on what you stand for and what you believe in. Others may have answered it differently. That is the objective of my questions.

    To simply put ” put yourself in the other person’s shoes” is an ideal thing to do, unfortunately more often than not it only works best when one doesn’t have the upper hand i.e. where one thinks that one could do better in reverse. Given “the historical accounts” that I mentioned about PAP and DAP in my questions, how would you expect the Malays to understand and empathize with the Chinese.

    How much more should the Malay give to make the Chinese happy? As I mentioned in my earlier comment, even if the Malay were to give them the whole country, it wouldn’t still be enough for them as they will try to find way to drive the Malays out.

    Does it bother me ( in other word agree) that the Chinese sentiments are now the strongest compared to the last few decades? Not at all, because that’s how they are (and human in general), the minute they think that have enough mileage (read “bargaining power”) that is when you see their true color.

    What all of us should try uphold here is “TOLERANCE” knowing for a fact that nobody can be equally satisfied in any given situation; fortunately or unfortunately some of us has bigger share in one way or the other be it politically, economically or socially. Jangan la jadi seperti kata pepatah ” Padang dia berjijit, Padang Orang Dia Berlari”.

    1. LOL, you say:

      “Does it bother me (in other word agree) that the Chinese sentiments are now the strongest compared to the last few decades? Not at all, because that’s how they are (and human in general), the minute they think that have enough mileage (read “bargaining power”) that is when you see their true color”.

      Doesn’t this sound very familiar, are you talking about material enhancement or human rights as your bargaining power? If the former was the case how come you needed to wait until HINDRAF rose for the poor and marginalized without any bargaining power to show where the true power is.

      What all of us should do is not to imbibe tolerance when it steps over the basic rights of a person but make it amenable so that basic rights should not be infringed nor pollutated for only how you (either politically or individually induced) in your subjective sense seems fit without an objective purpose for the masses.

      1. Ideally that’s what everybody wants in pursuit of happiness. But A “SANE” and “RATIONAL” individual will make decision based on previous, present and future probability that will affect his or her stake.

        That is why my earlier comment starts with ” Politically, Economically or Socially”.

      2. Lol, you say ” Ideally that’s what everybody wants in pursuit of happiness. But A “SANE” and “RATIONAL” individual will make decision based on previous, present and future probability that will affect his or her stake. Sure it is, Hua Yong, where are you?

        The sane and rational becomes convulated when the truth is mastubated oops!!! slip of the tongue, should have been emancipated for the society’s well being irrespective of individual desire and needs. Decision needs to be made on the truth not self notivated and derived sane and rational decisions.

      3. MINY- My guess is you were masturbating yourself when you wrote that piece of crap. I am glad to know that you were in New York, which used to be my playground. The land of opportunity where everyone is welcome and “accepted as they are”. The country is so rich and prosper because the politics is so clean and everyone is not corrupt. Get a life DUDE.

      4. MINY @ Talk is CHEAP DUDE. Hey you should joint the Miss Universe Pageant then, because that kind of idealism will qualify you as the “QUEEN” (yes pun intended) of the strive who strives for world peace.

  19. Helen;

    Correct me if my assumptiona are wrong… In the 1950s, throw a stone at any Chinese, most likely you will hit a communist or communist symphathiser.. I presumed during that time 80% of Chinese were communists or communist symphathisers.

    In 1969, throw a stone at a Chinese, most likely you will hit at DAP members or DAP symphathisers . Again I presumed that 90% of Chinese during that time supported DAP and their racist policy.

    Can you recalled in any election in Chinese majority areas (>above 80%) that any MCA candidate had won against DAP.

    If my assumptions are correct, I think that Chinese as a whole has not changed since 1950s. They were anti Perikatan (BN) and anti government dari dulu lagi. The few MCA and Gerakan candidates that won because they contested in Malay majority areas, ehsan dari UMNO.

    1. goodoo, you forgot in late 90s when mahathir was facing backlash from malay voters over anwar ibrahim issue. it was the non malay vote that saved him n helped him get another term. pak lah’s largest bn victory in 2004 was helped by non malays voting for bn on the promise of reform

      in the 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, the large victories of the bn will not be possible without near unanimous support from non malays

  20. Has anyone here given a thought to why the situation is such today? In general, Chinese are not against Malays, and vice versa.We all grew up together, respecting one another and all that it entails. If not for those politicians (both sides of the political divide are equally to blame), we will still be living harmoniously.


      2. Prior to Tun M’s era there was not much money to be made in politics (don’t get confused with “MONEY POLITIC”). There was no big project, no big business, not much FDI. Then come the money, and everything else is history.

  21. Membangunkan sebuah negara mengambil masa bertahun2. Kerajaan BN perlukan lebih 50 tahun untuk bangunkan Malaysia.

    Pakatan Rakyat perlukan kurang 4 tahun menyampahkan Selangor, memaksa orang Melayu keluar secara halus di Penang, dan perlukan lebih 20 tahun menyelesaikan isu air rakyat Kelantan dan baru2 ini baru boleh terfikir nak kutip derma buat lebuh raya tiada tol untuk rakyat Kelantan. Bila kerajaan BN dah senaraikan kebaikan dan pembangunan mereka untuk Malaysia, kerajaan BN dituduh suka mengungkit.

    Jadi, kesimpulannya, dalam sekelip mata Penang mungkin boleh jadi sebuah republik seperti Singapura.

  22. Helen,

    Not difficult to think about future of chinese community in malaysia with UMNO dominating political landscape. For past 54 years, UMNO dominates political sphere.

    Do you see UMNO threatening the chinese or cruel to the Chinese? If that is the real intention of UMNO, it does not have to wait for long. In 1957, it simply can bulldoze its way on the Chinese. It does not do that as it is wrong and sinful (In islam) to be cruel even to non muslims.

    What I am trying to say here is very simple. Chinese simply have to work with malays in any aspect. By “working with mala ys’ I mean not expecting malays to renounce whatever their rights but Chinese still dreaming as if they are in mainland China.

    Remember Tan Chai hoe lost in Bandar Tun Razak as malays feel why be stupid in electing a non Malay as their respresentative.

    As for future of monarchy, Malay politicians are telling the truth. the first to go should DAP takes over is Malay royalty. And this perception is reinforced by what my Chinese muslim friend told me.

    Looking at DAP’s antic all these years, only brainless Malays will think otherwise.

    Last night one Chinese man asked Najib why some( meraning malays) still perceive chinese like ‘pendatang’. Najib gives a diplomatic answer. The truth hurts.

    Why Malays perceive that? Simply because many chinese politicians behave like “pendatang”. They refuse to integrate with malays( insisting non Chinese teachers are out of chinese school and “mandarin required in advertisement) among other things besides saying nasty things about Malays in vernacular newspapers.

    1. You’re right to say that anytime since 1957 Umno could have taken harsher measures directly against the Chinese if the party had wanted to, or even punitive ones post-1969.

      I believe vis-a-vis treatment of Chinese, PAS compared to Umno would act more unilaterally, i.e. PAS would implement a slew of Islamic laws and policies while disregarding any DAP protests.

      PAS attitude can be discerned from the many pronouncements by its top leaders that a non-Muslim cannot be PM. While it may not be realistic to expect a non-Muslim PM or a Chinese PM (moot point if the candidate is to be LGE as he is the last person I want to see as PM), the fact of PAS’s view saying “no non-Muslim allowed” shows the party’s true colours.

      DAP may think it holds the upper hand against PAS, enough for containment of PAS’s ambitions. While this may appear so in the present Pakatan arrangement where PAS is forced to play third wheel, DAP ‘forgets’ that PKR had only one MP (Wan Azizah in Permatang Pauh) in the 2004 GE. The tsunami swept 31 PKR reps into Parliament in 2008, which after defections and other reasons, PKR is today left with 23.

      The yoyo in the PKR numbers show that fortunes can change in the blink of an eye. Whereas PAS’s performance has been more consistent throughout, unlike the wild swing of PKR from 1 to 31 within one electoral cycle.

      DAP deceitfully chooses to hide from DAPsters the bigger picture that with M’sia being a Malay-majority and Muslim country, there is no way that even PAS will allow DAP to become numero uno c.f. post of Perak Menteri Besar (or Johor MB).

      The majority of PAS’s grassroots will, at the end of the day, demand that their party defend Agama, Bangsa dan Negara against the DAP which is viewed as alien.

  23. Hi Helen, might be slightly off-topic but whats your reaction to this?

    Funny how the Dapsters were singing praises of the French when they seemed to have dirt on Najib, but now looking at the comments there, they are even suggesting that the French “altered” the records. Really for the Dapsters one can become a hero to villain in no time at all.

    1. I don’t follow the twists and turns of Altantuya.

      But the DAPster Hero-to-Zero Syndrome can be seen in their treatment of RPK – when he exposed BN’s corruption for a long time, they took what he said as the gospel truth. But immediately when he made allegations about PKR corruption in S’gor, they called him ‘liar’ and hurled all sorts of ugly accusations at him.

      Another fall from grace is Zaid Ibrahim. When he says things they want to hear, he’s such a great man. When he questions Pakatan, whoaa.

      DAPsters love to peddle conspiracy theories and the way they are able to putar-belit and the kind of cerita-cerita they manage to come up with is simply fantabulous.

      They need a little kingdom to call theirs alone so that over there they can happily live among their own kind.

      1. Helen,

        Malaysia is not a secular country like USA or singapore. Neither it is an islamic country like that of Saudi arabia.

        It lies in between. Hence the confusion many feel on this matter.

        And not to worry about PAS implementing islamic principle. Not that i do not believe the principles. Rather, i do not believe in PAS.

        PAS has no iinkling of what Islamic princilples are. and it has no desire to implement it. But religion, being an emotive subject serves as a potent card for PAS.

        So, PAS uses Islam whenever it suits PAS. And PAS self appoints itself as “exclusive speaker’ on Islam. Other people cant talk about islam. Only PAS can speak on this matter.

        The truth is that I am comfortable with UMNO’s way. UMNO a least is not a hypocrite.

  24. helen,

    goondoo’s proposal is more tongue in cheek or sarcastic, and he dislikes dap, pakatan, maybe chinese?, etc.

    a republic of pinang is a regressive idea for whole bunch of reason. as far as i know, the idea of indipendance of penang is not in the minds of vast majority of chinese, even dap supporter. maybe crazy extremist like shuzheng will support it.

    i will be out of malaysia on a business trip for week so will not b able to reply further.


    Fly safe. — Helen

  25. Dave,

    Independence is only possible if the head of govt (Najib) agrees to it. without his consent, protocol dictates that no other counties will be able to recognise the independence.

  26. Now, if only MCA, MIC, and even UMNO had done their work properly, none of this problems wouldn’t have happened. I still have faith in the existing system. I hope BN can buck up and change their mindset. All race and religions have their rights with respect to the constitution. So long that we don’t cross the line of each others’ , than it wouldn’t be much of a problem.

    But, every once in a while, a ship has to sail through storm. But that’s what make the ship and the crew stronger. Ships are reinforced, and crews are becoming more resilient. Ever more so, new type of storms come along. The crews must adapt to new challenges.

    That’s what our country is. The DAP, PKR, PAS, the religious and racial extremists, and the likes will continue to be there. How do we keep our country together for generations to come, that’s what matters.

    The country wouldn’t become what it is now hadn’t it been for a functioning government. BN need to engage more with the people and show more transparency. This is what the current situation demands.

  27. Should we sent the Indonesian ambassador home for what the Indonesians are doing to Malaysians in Indonesia (burning Malaysian flag, damaging Malaysian property, threatening to Ganyang Malaysia, etc?). Should we cut all diplomatic ties with Indonesia for insulting Malaysia?

  28. Greg,

    Ko nie sesat dari mana tapi tak pe la aku jawap .

    1. Itu perbuatan org tak de keja bukan pemerintah jadi tak yah layan
    2. Dia buat kat negera dia bukan macam MAT2 KIASU TU…..
    3. Kalo kita kena hantar Duta Indonesia balik sebab rakyat dia hina
    Malaysia, Mana kita nak hantar LIM GUAN ENG sebab hina
    JOHOR ??

  29. Let me understand what your saying Nazree.

    1. You are saying that it is ok (and not insulting to you) for Indonesians to burn Malaysian flags (because they did it in Indonesia)

    2. You are saying that it is ok (and that your not insulted) when Indonesians vandalise Malaysian diplomatic premises in Indonesia?

    3. You are saying that it is ok (and that your not insulted) when Indonesians harass Malaysians because they are doing it in Indonesia?

    Can you please confirm that I have understood correctly what you are saying.


  30. 1. This coming from the people who champion human right and freedom of expression

    2. Like I said it done by individual not the government of Indonesia.

    3. It for the Indonesian government to act not is la…..IT THEIR CITIZEN …ape kebodoh mat kau nie

    1. Greg,

      Me….getting insulted by it all I think not….disappointed and offended yes….

      But your suggestion to severe ties and sending their ambassador home for the action by individual, NGOs and politician looking for popular issues…. woooiiii,,,,,mabukkkk kaaaa!!!!…even PERKASA in their demand to the KIASU did not go to that extend.

      What we have done by calling their rep here, say what we have to say and stress on the safety of our citizen and asset there must be their priority is sufficient.

      I sincerely hope your kind of diplomacy is not the reflection PR s Foreign Relations Policies if they rule this country cos if it is ALLAH help us all…

      That remind me to double check Selena’s Cabinet Dapur line up……hope u not in it……

  31. Hi Nadzree,

    If you are ok or don’t feel insulted with what the Indonesians did then, I’m surprised. But that’s entirely your decision.

    But I think you don’t understand what the idea or the concept of rule of law is.

    You see, the Indonesians have broken the law (both International and domestic.)

    For example, the Malaysian government is duty bound to protect the Indonesian embassy from being vandalised by Malaysians.

    The Malaysian government is duty bound to protect Indonesians in Malaysia.

    So, its a simple concept. There is a law . The law is that the Indonesian government is duty bound to protect Malaysian property and Malaysian citizens. The Indonesian government must enforce the law.


    1. Greg..may I ask what’s the relevance of your questions/comments to the topic here ?

      Being an academic, perhaps you could cite the international law that allows for a country to expel diplomats of another nation for flag-burning and demonstration ?

      1. Greg,

        Memang la ko ni kaki pusing if there’s anyone not understanding anything it’s you. Kau ingat tak statement ko or shall I say your suggestion…

        1- by your brilliant logic if any of our Embassy around the world is bomb by a local lunatic group we MUST SEVERE TIES and send their Ambassador home. Apa hal lu..whiskey diplomacy ka..??

        2. Did anywhere in my explanation that the law shouldn’t take it course. hey dude!! please baca balik what I have wrote?

        3- What international law have the government of Indonesia broke ?

        4- Who damage the Malaysian properties over there, is it the police, the army, the cabinet members or any of the goverment agencies that it require your suggested retaliation……

        Pak Greg, loh bikin gue pusing Pak !! Begog amat sih loh…gue pikirin loh pinter..wadddduuhh payahhh!!!

      2. Calvin

        The right to expel a diplomat rests entirely with the host country and it can be done for whatever reason. Ofcourse it has implications.


        The reason that I raise this comparison is to demonstrate to NadZree that the Malay community in Malaysia acts as bullies and only cares about the Malays and not Malaysia.

        It bullies the Chinese, Indians, Orang Asals, indigenous people of Sabah & Sarawak, Malays that oppose UMNO (e.g. Kelantan)

        An UMNO MP says that Ambiga should be hanged. Ex-military personnel do disgusting things at her house.

        Yet, the UMNO’s, the PERKASA’s and the Malays in general do not show the same anger when some Indonesians clearly violate Malaysian sovereignty (harassing Malaysians in Indonesia and vandalising Malaysian property in Indonesia) as compared when Singapore diplomats do what diplomats do. The Singaporean High Comm. was summoned, but Malaysian Govt has no guts to do the same to Indonesia, when the Indonesian transgression is far more serious.

        BENDERA, an Indonesian grassroots vigilante group has threatened to “Ganyang Malaysia”. And what did the brave warriors of Malaysia do. Like mouse, they say nothing. Where are the Tok Gajah’s, Dato Bahaman’s, the Mat Kilau’s, the Hang Tuah’s – who dare challenge the Indonesians?

        Like cowards the hide behind excuses like what NadZree has given (let them do what they want).

        NadZree, ask yourself, why this is happening? Why are non-Muslims blamed for all the ills that plague the Malay race?

        Is it the fault of the non-Muslims that the Muslims are backward in Malaysia. After all, UMNO has been ruling this country since independence. Malays control all institutions in Malaysia. If Malays are not doing well, why blame the non-Muslims?

        Helen, thanks for obliging me. You do have a very interesting group here. I hope the discussions will be productive.

        This has been an enlightening experience.

        Salam hormat.

      3. Dear Greg,

        In your mind, you felt that the threats by Indonesians over the stolen cultural heritage is more severe than the Singaporean diplomats participating in Bersih.

        As a fact, I remember that BOTH Singapore and Indonesia’s ambassadors were summoned to Wisma Putra to smooth things over. I do think people are being childish. Our history of bilateral relations with Indonesia and Singapore can hardly be affected by either events (Indonesians protesting at our Malaysian embassies and Singaporean diplomats having a view of our internal affairs). So, I am surprised that you are of the opinion that we should expel our Indonesian ambassadors over such trivial matters. Have you no sense of proportions? Whether we recall our people or expel theirs, this is the final act of diplomatic exchanges. It only happens usually, when territorial disputes are at stake (as a form of protest) or the country is considered a pariah, internationally.

        Non-muslims and muslims in Malaysia are responsible for everything in their own country. Nice try of passing the buck to muslims. The last time I checked, this country is divided by race, nice touch of adding the religious divide. Can tell that you harbour some unhappiness over the preferential treatment. The million dollar question would be, are you working to abolish the wayward preferential treatments or are you trying to get some piece of the action.

        Huge difference.



        The right to expel a diplomat rests entirely with the host country and it can be done for whatever reason. Ofcourse it has implications.


        The reason that I raise this comparison is to demonstrate to NadZree that the Malay community in Malaysia acts as bullies and only cares about the Malays and not Malaysia.

        It bullies the Chinese, Indians, Orang Asals, indigenous people of Sabah & Sarawak, Malays that oppose UMNO (e.g. Kelantan)

        An UMNO MP says that Ambiga should be hanged. Ex-military personnel do disgusting things at her house.

        Yet, the UMNO’s, the PERKASA’s and the Malays in general do not show the same anger when some Indonesians clearly violate Malaysian sovereignty (harassing Malaysians in Indonesia and vandalising Malaysian property in Indonesia) as compared when Singapore diplomats do what diplomats do. The Singaporean High Comm. was summoned, but Malaysian Govt has no guts to do the same to Indonesia, when the Indonesian transgression is far more serious.

        BENDERA, an Indonesian grassroots vigilante group has threatened to “Ganyang Malaysia”. And what did the brave warriors of Malaysia do. Like mouse, they say nothing. Where are the Tok Gajah’s, Dato Bahaman’s, the Mat Kilau’s, the Hang Tuah’s – who dare challenge the Indonesians?

        Like cowards the hide behind excuses like what NadZree has given (let them do what they want).

        NadZree, ask yourself, why this is happening? Why are non-Muslims blamed for all the ills that plague the Malay race?

        Is it the fault of the non-Muslims that the Muslims are backward in Malaysia. After all, UMNO has been ruling this country since independence. Malays control all institutions in Malaysia. If Malays are not doing well, why blame the non-Muslims?

        Helen, thanks for obliging me. You do have a very interesting group here. I hope the discussions will be productive.

        This has been an enlightening experience.

        Salam hormat.”

      5. Reply to Greg # 87:

        Expelling diplomats is the last resort and not the first. When one country expels another’s diplomats, it means the relationship is sunk to a level, only slightly above outright war.

        I am very very familiar with the Indonesian situation and I would say that if Malaysia resorts to your idea, it would be a disaster in terms of bilateral relations and might even affect ASEAN solidarity.

        Only someone with IQ in single or double-digits would advocate such a drastic solution.

        Thank god you are an eCONomist and not a diplomat !

    2. This is in response to I hate n’snyc #89.

      Before I explain, can I just confirm with you if you have any documented evidence that the Indonesian ambassador was summoned over Bersih. I have trawled the net and not found any.

      Now for my explanation:

      This is the exact quotation that I made in #80

      “Should we sent the Indonesian ambassador home for what the Indonesians are doing to Malaysians in Indonesia (burning Malaysian flag, damaging Malaysian property, threatening to Ganyang Malaysia, etc?). Should we cut all diplomatic ties with Indonesia for insulting Malaysia?”

      (Pardon the spelling errors)

      It is a question, not a statement, nor recommendation.

      What is the context.

      This blog focuses on raising issues with the Chinese community that supports DAP, but especially DAP (LGE and DAP leaders) and also Christians.

      Helen has her reasons for it, which in a democratic country, we should all respect.

      Why I asked the question:

      When I look at the vitriol put out on the Malaysian Chinese community in this blog: that they are ungrateful, that they should be sent back to China or Singapore, that they are worse than (fill in whatever you want), I ask myself, what did the Chinese community do, or more specifically, what did LGE and DAP do, to deserve all of this?

      What have they done that is worse than what UMNO is doing to this country?

      However, instead of comparing with UMNO or BN – which most of the readers her support, I compared Malay right wing attitude towards Singapore and Indonesia.

      No Singaporeans have burned Malaysian flags, No Singaporean have vandalised Malaysian diplomatic premises. Whereas Indonesia had been at war with Malaysia (Konfrantasi) and are now doing all these transgressions against Malaysia. Yet the hatred for Singapore by Malays are far greater than to Indonesians.

      My question is why and as I answered to NadZree, the Malay community (represented by UMNO) but also in general, today are a bunch of bullies.

      Have you seen how other religions are portrayed in the mainstream media (Here is a sample: Yet, the Malay community does nothing to protest.

      The Malay community does nothing when the rights of other Malaysians are trampled but will react in the most irrational way, when other exercise their democratic rights (the Allah issue being the clearest).

      There are many decent Malays I’m sure but because all of you do nothing to defend the rights of all citizens, the mad few, supported the small but influential Malays with vested interest runs riot, manipulating the frightened and unenlightened majority.

      The Malay community really has no interest in the rule of law, or the sovereignty of Malaysia. They only care about their rights and whichever political party can deliver that, will get their votes (which explains DAP’s strategy).

      I’m afraid however that attempting to placate the Malay community without an end will spell the doom for Malaysia.

      I’m very sorry if I offended you but I have tried to put my views forward in the most polite way possible without diluting the gravity of what i’m saying.

      I do hope you understand.

      Calvin, I asked several people how to deal with you. This was the advise I received:

      “Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.”

      1. Perhaps that was why Calvin stopped dealing with you in the first place. Now you know, right?

      2. Well,Greg…it is deja vu all over again.

        This is not the first time you ran away from a debate with tails between your leg while saying your opponent is a fool/unworthy/did not conform to rules, blah blah…

        Unlike in FB, everyone can see for themselves your pathetic excuses and lack of academic analytical skills or even some signs of IQ, especially considering the facts that your a pursing a PhD.

        Well,folks, you might be interested to know that Greg is actually a PhD student in econs and not political science. So whatever nonsense he writes cannot be considered as academic but merely just another cybertrooper for Pakatan.

        I had pointed this fact and he just went ballistics because he tried to create a false impression to the gulliable international and local PR loving alternative media that he’s an expert on Malaysian politics. When he was kantoi-ed, he naturally mad as the Dear Leader.

        It is always been Greg’s modus operandi to try to talk down and spew some BS and when one challenges him on his logic and facts, he starts to get defensive and become abusive and then bans you.

        Which should surprise those who are familiar with PR leaders and cybertroopers since this is aways been their style.

  32. Which brings us to the question of LGE insulting Johoreans by making fun of their crime rates.

    There are two legal questions here.

    First, how should we treat things that are said in private, and two, how should we treat things that are factual.

    First, Nadzree, I’m sure you remember Nasir Safar subversive and racially derogatory remarks that he made at a BN meeting. He said it in private, and was later brought into public.

    You may also remember this video by UMNO Titiwangsa chief. He said it in private but was made public

    There are many more examples such as this.

    My point is, when something is said in private (and meant to be confidential), later brought into public, what do you do.

    Frankly, I don’t know. If there are any lawyers, here, appreciate your views.

    1. Greg, I think you are rather missing the point here. Neither of the men you had cited are leaders of any standing.These are not elected reps or senior leaders of their party or represent their parties’ view.

      On the other hand, LGE is the CM of a state. He is an elected rep and he was speaking in a foreign country and to foreign audience. For him to make such an malicious and totally inaccurate remark and then denying it is highly irresponsible.

      I don’t think anyone is talking about legal issue here. It is a matter of ethics and reponsibliity as a leader. Whether it is private or public function does not matter. Defending his remarks is a futile effort and only shows that you are using 2 sets of justice system to judge. A lax and loose one for Pakatan and an extremely high standards for BN. So much for impartial adademic viewpoints !

      1. (1) Rule of law – everyone is equal before the law. Boleh faham tak?

        (2) Did LGE say something wrong for pointing out the fact that Johor has crime rates that were higher than Penang? Faham tak?

        Now you know why I don’t like to discuss with you. Your not really interested in finding solutions.

      2. And by the way, anytime that PR leaders do anything wrong, please take them to court. If Anwar or anyone of PR leaders are corrupt, please charge them and take them to court. The last thing I (and people who support the broader principals of democracy want) is for PR to become like BN.

      3. Reply to Greg Lopez # 90 & 91 :

        1. Everyone is equal before the law but you seem to selectively apply the law when it is politically convenient. You demand BN politicians to be hauled for sedition but when PR leaders are charged you scream that the Sedition Act is archaic.

        2. LGE’s remark : Well this is another example on how you try to muddle way through debate. The issue is not if Johor’s crime rate is higher than Penang but his remark that “if you are a Singaporean you are likely to be kidnapped in Johor”. What kind of a leader would make such false and malicious remarks against another state ? Not only he made the statement, he initially denied it and wanted to sue Bernama until a transcript of the speech was played over the air.Only then he admitted it and apologised.

        3. Charging PR leaders. Well, first you scream political prosecution and then you will claim the courts are crooked and under BN thumb. Of course if they are released you will then proudly say that the leaders are innocent as they are cleared by court. So it is always “heads I win, tail you lose” principle with you.

        I am waiting for you to write an article based on principles rather than political affiliation and personalities. Only then I could take you seriously.

  33. My second point is relating to the fact of what is being said.

    If a BN minister says that crime in Selangor has increased and it is factually correct, is that statement an insult to the Sultan of Selangor or the people of Selangor.

    So, if LGE made a factual statement that crime rates are higher in Johor than in Penang, has he insulted the people of Johor, or the Sultan of Johor.

    I would encourage you to explore further this idea called “the rule of law”. If more Malaysians accepted and followed the rule of law, we would have less problems.

    By the way, I’m not a Pakatan Rakyat supporter. I just think they are better than Barisan Nasional at the present moment.

    (You remember of course, that under Team Wawasan, both Najib and Muhyiddin agreed that Anwar was the leader. It just happened that Mahathir decided otherwise.)

    If BN can reform and demonstrate they are better (by doing away with racial politics, Malay/Islamic supremacy and widespread corruption), I would consider them.

    Salam hormat.



    Can you gimme the citation on what you said about the previous Sultan of Johor?

    How do you measure the breadth of BN’s “widespread corruption”? Operative word ‘wide’.


  34. Hi Helen,

    The case against Sultan Iskandar is well documented. Guess, who was the presiding judge – Raja Azlan Shah.

    You can read Syed Husin Ali’s book on the Constitutional Crisis where he documents Sultan Iskandar’s transgressions.

    On UMNO’s widespread corruption – oh dear, Does this even need to be discussed.

    But anyway, here are some:

    Transparency International on Malaysia and Singapore

    Expats on Malaysia

    Barry Wain on Mahathir



    Since the Sentinel article said “allegedly”, I’m leaving out the link you provided.

    For readers’ info, Greg’s own articles can be read at


      1. Greg…since we are on neutral ground we can debate and let’s see if you turn up for debate or chicken out again,

        I don’t think that anyone is denying that there was corruption and abuse of power during the Dr M era. I would not defend many of those things he did. I was a student activist during my uni days and I had organized many activities against his policies and actions.

        However he did many things right and much of what we have today (both good and bad) are due to him. Some of the things he did must also be seen in historical context rather than projected into the current socio political scenario.

        If you have read Barry Wain’s book and all other articles, you know that no one has accused Dr M of corruption. Most of those responsible for the gross waste and corruption has either passed away or retired with one notable exception – Anwar Ibrahim.

        If you insist on holding UMNO/BN responsible for the past abuses,you can’t let go Anwar of his role in this too. In fact Anwar has contributed more than most BN leaders for the corruption and abuse of power.

        Also, you might want to note that on the contrast there is no dirt on Najib and more than any other Malaysian PM he has contributed to reform and liberalise Malaysia democratically and economically.

        So your position is illogical and highly unacademic.You want to hold BN responsible for the past problems when all the leaders responsible are no longer in power. Yet you are willing to absolve Anwar for his contribution saying he has changed now.

        On the other hand, you fail to acknowledge the changes and improvement Najib has brought. While at the same time you turn a blind eye to the massive corruption, abuse of power and mismanagement that is happening in Penang and Selangor.

        Can you see how Bulletin Mutiara has 51 images of Dear Leader 2.0 or Selangor Times saturated with Hannah @ Bangsa Malaysia’s thick face ? Isn’t this an abuse of power ? Don’t you think Rm300 million that being pumped into Selangorku being channeled for political fundings is not corruption ??

  35. Also Helen,

    If you read any academic work on Malaysia’s system of government (patronage system), you will under the breadth and width of corruption in Malaysia.

    The World Bank has estimated that corruption costs approximately 1 to 2 percent of GDP.

    Read also this book (summary in this article) by Hal Hill, Ragayah Hj. Mat Zin, and Tham Siew Yen. Malaysia’s problems are largely self-inflicted and self-inflicted because of pandering too much to the demands of the Malay community.

    1. Dear Greg,

      I think you have to be a little bit more honest about what you have read, especially when it comes to the tomes on Malaysia’s political economy system.

      Prof. Dr. Hill is of the opinion that the Bumiputera affirmative policies are costing us on the international competitiveness front. He is saying that NEP worked, but its distortions are now hampering our economy’s transition towards a high income nation. It is essentially the problems of a patronage-based system, especially when the ruling coalition has over 50 years of experience in entrenching itself in the development process.

      What country’s problems are not largely self-inflicted? To say that our problems today stem from pandering to the demands of the Malays would be inaccurate. Our problems today stem from the growing chokegrip of the elites who grew arrogant, reactionary and lethargic in their bid to keep themselves perpetually in power.

      I have no horse in this BN-PR race. I see no fundamental departure from the elite bargaining system in both coalitions. In fact, PR is a poor mimic of the Alliance formula. The fact that it still takes a communal-based approach to Putrajaya should have pointed out to you that nothing has changed in the electorate’s mind – the ones forming the Executive and Legislative powers in Malaysia must first secure its own multiracial stability and consensus.

      Many Malaysians are eager to replace BN with a less corrupt alternative. However, this must be balanced with the fact that whoever who is replacing BN must make sure the sound developmental initiatives are continued and improved upon. Abolishing PTPTN is certainly another populist measure that aims at garnering votes, but giving out more individual taxi licences bears a stronger, more sustainable (and sounder) change.

      We are not looking for handouts, we are looking for a Government that knows how to put in the proper incentives and dis-incentives to improve national productivity and competitiveness. At this point, our wealth bucket has a big hole that needs too be plugged (read: additional costs to get things done due to skimming and patronage and outright bribes). We should change the workmen in charge, mix it up a little, but this is a process that I am content to watch from the sidelines.

      Afterall, I am not a party faithful. Let the rise of PR keep BN on their toes, and I guarantee you that if PR gets into power, two things can happen, 1) BN will watch PR like a hawk and hold them to a higher standard while the latter will expose all the supposed wrongdoings of the former once they get into power, and 2) the lalangs will worm their way into the corridors of power and the system of patronage and elite bargaining will continue as before, just with different Daims, Tajuddins, Francis Yeohs and Ananda Krishnans.

      It is not because Prof. Dr. Hill’s assertions are any more valid than others because he write “academic” works. Any data requires interpretation, and the science of political economy is not idiot-proof. Academicians and scientists value a cohorent and consistent structure of argument based on evidence. Conjectures and feelings and subjective opinions do count, especially when an inter-subjective sentiment becomes dominant. We both know the masses are idiots, prone to primacy and recency effects. How many erroneous beliefs are being perpetuated, despite evidence to the contrary? This applies to both BN and PR supporters, who peddles in dis-information and mis-information so that they can feel better about themselves and their choices?

      Malaysia is at her crossroads not because BN or the Alliance was evil incarnate at its inception, but because complacency, corruption and stagnancy has set in. If BN is all bad news, we would not be where we are today – at least they didn’t messed up their job too badly, and the checks and balances only got unhinged at the point of BN-UMNO’s dominance. Mahathir is both our most successful development architect but also its greatest enemy for destroying and bending government institutions to his bidding. In the hands of a benevolent tyrant, it is an instrument of growth, in the hands of an incompetent fool, it becomes a tool for abuse.

      Our role as a civil society is to encourage more systemic changes to the institutions, give them back their spine and get good men and women into positions of power, making sure they make decisions based on sound principles and rationale.

      1. re: “get good men and women into positions of power”

        Your views on Haris’ Integrity Meter vis-a-vis the above? It doesn’t seem that the ‘good’ people are the ones chasing power. On the contrary.

      2. I think academic superiority is vastly overrated. I think Haris has to start somewhere, although I confess that the meter he uses is faulty.

        It is a bit of an oxymoron, as ideally, we should give power to those who doesn’t seek them. In a democracy, that’s clearly impossible.

        So, perhaps the next best thing is to give power to those who clearly craves them, but as threats of removal from power looms, the politicians will do anything to keep themselves in power. It is this dysfunctional equilibrium that we are looking at, with BN scrambling left, right and center to decipher what is it that the electorate wants that they can give right away without costing them their exulted positions.

        I happen to love PR, people in power need to be reminded that they are not irreplacable. Just don’t let BN know that PR can’t keep its own house in order just yet.

      3. Thank you I’hate in sync.

        You have raised valid points.

        I agree with your conclusion:

        “…Our role as a civil society is to encourage more systemic changes to the institutions, give them back their spine and get good men and women into positions of power, making sure they make decisions based on sound principles and rationale…”

        The key question in my mind and I seek your your opinion,

        (1) has the government sought to engage His Majesty’s Opposition and civil society with respect and decorum as the people’s representatives

        (2) Has the government engaged society respectfully, especially those who have opposing views as citizens of this country, with the legitimate right to put their views forward.

        Because, your conclusion on our role as a civil society lies in a government that first and foremost has respect for its citizens, the rule of law, and democratic norms.

  36. Wow….Greg Lopez is here ! Helen, you know what this means ? This means you are notorious – in the eyes of Pakatan cheerleaders and fan boys and gals !

    That Greg has to turun padang and defend Pakatan means your blog is being a serious pain Pakatan’s you-know-where.

    I have some previous experience in “dealing” with Greg, until he “un-friended” me in FB because he was seriously getting thrashed in debates with me. You see, it must be very embarassing to be a Phd student in an Australian (take note this is the very same country where the Dear Leader also studied and a lot of Dapsters reside too) but get beaten badly in economic matters by a non-economist in a public space. So I don’t blame him for running away.

    Greg likes to consider himself as an academic and intellectual but resorts to typical Pakatan’s tactics of using lies and half-truths to atatck BN and defend Pakatan yet descents to insults and emotions when he gets exposed. A sort of Tian Chua (yet another Aussie grad) with Phd.

    1. Hi Calvin. I had to unfriend you because you did not follow the accepted norms of debates/discussion which is based on good will, honesty and supporting the arguments with facts rather than assertions. I have faith that Helen will ensure that these proper norms are adhered to.

      Its a tragedy that you think that my support and calls for the end or racists policies, corruption, moderation and the adherence to the rule of law is associated with Pakatan Rakyat and not the greater good of Malaysia.

      I guess this is why I make the statement that for the present moment, PR is the better option than BN. Because BN and its supporters see any calls for going back to the basics of democracy is seen as a threat to BN.

      1. By the way Calvin, Helen has contributed to the New Mandala-Malaysia section blog, which I edit.

        Helen has views on a range of issues some of which I agree and many others I disagree, and to which I have pointed out based on theory and evidence. We’ve had good discussions, because we adhere to the rules of engagement and like civilised adults we agree to disagree.

        There is no malice.

        I unfortunately find you are not like Helen. Hence, the decision to stop discussing with you.

        I have also discussed with Armand Shah, the former PERKASA youth chief, now with UMNO via FB. He asserts his views (with what he considers as evidence), I provide counter arguments and we agree to disagree.

        E.g. PERKASA notes that they want to uphold Bahasa Malaysia. I noted that it was Mahathir who introduced PPSMI.

        He noted that PERKASA wants to defend the Malay Royalty. I noted that no one has humiliated the Malay Royalty more than Mahathir.

        He noted that PERKASA wants to defend Islam. I noted that in the 90s, it was Mahathir at consecutive UMNO general assemblies who told the Malays that they have to be more Knowledgeable and rely on science, rather than Allah. He used to criticise ulamas for solely relying on the Quran and Hadith.

        I believe that every has the right to assert their views – which is what a democracy is all about, but if you want to engage in an intelligent discussion or debate, certain norms must be adhered too. Otherwise, the discussion becomes pointless, and often counter-productive (creating further divisions, rather than seeking solutions).

      2. Greg, you don’t have to be apologetic or explain yourself as I do understand – it is hard for a self-confessed academic and impartial political observer to get thrashed in a debate with a non-academic and non-intellectual person in public space.

        Your action is typical. You demand for free speech and freedom of expression and yet when someone challenge you and exposes the fallacy of your “facts” and arguments, you ban / censor them or “unfriend” them. Look at Najib or Helen, there are all kinds of nasty cybertroopers are making all sorts of unpleasant comments yet they don’t resort to such cowardly actions.

        Grow up man !

  37. Just to reiterate a point.

    All I’m saying is that we need to agree that for a country and society to function effectively, we need to all follow the law. If we want to subject LGE/DAP/PR to the rule of law (which I totally agree), we must also subject UMNO and the monarchy to the rule of law.

    The Federal Constitution says that all Malaysians are equal and Mahathir has ensured that even the monarchy has no immunity for their private behaviour.

    So, let be fair to everyone and place our faith in the rule of law, an independent judiciary, and independent institutions such as the police, the MACC, etc.

    Salam hormat.

    1. Are we ? You oppose the Sedition Act and want people like Nasir Safar to be charged under the law. Yet when the law is applied to PR leaders you claim such laws should be abolished and are unjust and against human rights.

      You want MACC and the police to be impartial and investigate without fear or favour but PR leaders are caught you claim political prosecution.

      My position is clear, those who utter seditious comments should be charged and people like Nasir is no exception and I can’t agree with the Law Minister’s rationale on this.

      However, let’s not generalize the matter by saying BN/UMNO supports Nasir’s view points as they clearly don’t. No leaders of BN have supported this or made similar statements.

      But you ponder the fact that Nik Aziz, LGE and Anwar also at various points have made racist statements /actions too. Does that mean Pakatan has a racist agenda ? Anwar threatened to close down all Hindu temples in Penang during the Kg Rawa incident. LGE destroyed Kg Buah Pala and made racial remarks to support his actions. Nik Aziz’s silly and provocative statements can even be made into a book.

  38. Actually, I wouldn’t call Penang as Republic of Singapore North. Having lived in Singapore for some years and having PAP friends, I don’t think there are many similarities between PAP and DAP. First of all, there is an IQ and capabilities deficit between the leaders. To compare LKS/LGE with LKY is like comparing China-made Chery car with Lamboghini. LKY is a world renown intellect whose advice is still sought after by the US govt and the CIA. LGE in meantime, doesn’t even know Penang much,I bet he doesn’t even know how to get from his palace to Balik Papan on his own.

    I would call Penang as the Democratic Republic of North Korea South or Southern North Korea.

  39. Hi Lopez & Sankaran, you both suck, egotism does not solve the need unless you start realizing the need is beyond your alter ego but what is it is for the masses. Can you guys stop thinking and tinkering about yourselves but how and what action have you done to make it better for the rest? Nothing personal but it gets mundane, like

  40. Helen, big pat on the shoulder for you. The Penang government actually apologised for the 51 photo pile-up. Their excuse: a technical slip-up, whatever that means. More like a hilarious tripod job.

  41. DEY,

    As I answer your ‘QUESTIONS’ i knew it then you were fishing for answer. And for whatever reason will turn it into a ‘UMNO BASHING’ or BN BASHING or something along those line but ‘RELIGIOUS & RACE BASHING’……. DEY!!….that was totally unexpected…..

    Your question was there for more than 24hrs with no takers, so I say to myself why not let see wether my instinct is right…..well true enough you didn’t disappoint me wow…what a spew…….
    YOU MOTHERFUCKERS are so predictable..

    DEY(The Academician),

    IF the Malay takut nak protest tak patriotic selfish tak da telor…..hmmm that leaves only you and your kind whatever that is as the patriot, defender of the Flag, the country…..yeeehaaaa….
    yeaaaaa…..clap..clap…clap…..bbbbubbbuut…wwwwaait…where were you and your patriot why not out there burning Indonesian flag and demanding to send back the Indonesian Ambassador.


    I am not saying your lot are unpatriotic and selfish, it’s just that everybody (except for you) knows the protest by those group of Indonesian wasn’t worth a grain of salt. And to understand that you have to know more about Indonesian Politic and it’s politician.


    Ko baru bangun dari koma ke dan ini blog yang pertama ko baca hmmm…kesian..tapi tak pe la tak payah percaya cakap aku, sila layari semua blog tak kisah lah Melayu ke Cina ke India baca, the balik tongsan, balik Indonesia, balik hutan all the insult is happening are being thrown by all side in the blogsphere and I think we here have accept that and if i m not wrong comes under ‘Freedom Of Expression’

    -Ustazah issue-
    You are really a whinner dude scrambling from one issue to another to prove your stupid reasons. No matter how distorted her fact is, she was addressing the Muslim community telling them it wrong to celebrate the said occasion so its beyond me to understand why her could message offend other religions. You know what the funny thing is Valentine Day had nothing to do with any religion.
    So what now, we Muslim can’t preach our religion to fellow Muslim…wonder who is the Bully now…..

    – Allah issue –
    Let’s no go into that but if you want to us that to describe the Malay as a bully I have only one thing to say……whatevvveeerrrr…

    Dey Greg,

    You spin to much that you spin yourself in a corner where you show your true color. Calvin was right when he said you have one set of rules for yourself and another for others.

    Remember wat brought us to this point it was your question which you remind us about after you got whack…you

    1. Sorry Helen saya terpos belum selesai mesti banyak ejaan salah….he….he


      Your quote ‘it’s a question not a statement nor a recommendations’ Yesterday quote the BN MP regarding the Ambiga issue and start spewing your venom the first chance you have…..hehe… Guess what… borrow your quote ‘it’s a question not a statement nor a recommendation’ Dey IT SHOWs….BIGTIME……

    2. Only one instance of Muslims humiliating non Muslims. Interesting.

      Are you aware of churches that were vandalised because of the Allah issue?

      Are you aware of temples demolished? Are you aware of bodies snatched? Are you aware of non-Muslim mother losing their children because husbands covert to Islam and take authorities take the child away?

      Have you listened to Ridhuan Tee, Harussani Zakaria, the numerous programmes on RTM?

      Are you aware of two Muslim journalist that went into a Catholic church and did the most sacrilegious thing to Catholics (recieving the host – the most sacred object to Catholics) and then spitting it out)

      Muslims demonstrated violently and killed people when drawings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) were made in the Danish paper. But Muslims say nothing when their own people make the strongest insults against other religion (just like you have given excuses here)

      Read Geoff Wade’s paper on how Muslims have come to totally dominate Malaysia at the expense of the other races in the public sphere.

      You see NadZree, you are representative of the majority of Muslims in Malaysia, and possibly the world. When your rights are transgressed, you behave in the most violent and irrational manner. But when you transgress the rights of others (including other Muslims whom you disagree with), it’s a non-issue, in fact don’t even realise it.

      That’s why I say, the majority of Muslims in Malaysia only care about their rights – and do nothing to protect the rights of other Malaysians. Muslims don’t care about Malaysia and don’t care about the long term survival about this nation. Its always about the selfish rights of the Muslims.

      1. Dear Mr Lopez, I am sure you being an Anglophile you will fight for Anglophile agenda, and as for NadZee being and hoping to be a Taliban in Malaysia will hope and intend to flex his muscles for our fellow muslimat brothers. Now you both fight for what seems right in your light, but what actually have you done besides blogging and being the pseudo intellectual?

        Malaysia’s social historic fabric is not Anglophile nor one that is Muslimat based but revolves on how we have dealt with ease between us without the race, religion, origin to be the stumbling block all these years. BN has its fault, but PR seems to exacerbate these days by cherry picking its agenda that seems to widen our views to be one based on race, religion or origin.

        It is only fair that we have differing opinions, but why do we continue to bicker and curse each other if the objective is only to enhance our nation and its society. Did you know that HINDRAF is filing their class action on July 2, 2012 assisted by reputed human rights Queen’s Counsel on behalf of the Malaysian Indians?

        Now whether it is a good thingy or not is not the discussion, but being Malaysians per se in our semua tahu and semua boleh assumption, does nothing as the truth and reality faces you as we keep complaining how the Malaysian Indians have become a under classed community in the present day. Why and how can be your personal perspective, but who is doing anything to lift them up so that they can be Malaysian as well as like you and me?

        Surely most Malaysians will recognize how the system and policies had been tweaked with but what have we done besides ensuring our own survival as oppose to the need of our own society irrespective of their origin as Malaysians.

        Get over it guys, we need the real thingy not halve fetched thoughts to fan political needs

      2. Such fallacy

        Did muslims started ww1, ww2?
        Did muslims bombed hiroshima?
        Did muslims killed 45,000 germans via incendiary during the bombing of hamburg? surprisingly it was the british deliberately killing civilians to demoralize german public.

        Like any religions, muslims has its misdeed, just like christianity with tendency to kill, enslave and wipe out entire Civilizations, india with its cripling caste system which i am sure made you change your name from someone’s kutty to greg lopez of all names.. and buddhism, which ironically was spread throughout china partially via warfare when ancient tibet invaded parts of china while the rise of buddhism caused civil strife in japan.

        even the chinese with their proud traditions like mengzhi and confucianism spiralled into butchering and cannibalism during the cultural revolution and it was not better during the last moments of the ming dynasty with their foot binding and various crippling traditions and surprisingly it was the scandinavians in the early 19th century that made studies to proof that jews are non humans… true to human nature.. humans in its diversity is not perfect… we all know that.

        Now, pray what is your intent of telling us of our imperfections, should we repent and turn into christians and pretend to eat the body of christ, or we malays become brahmins and turn you into a paraya of pulliyal and justify your black skin as justifications to be maintained as inferior and not allowed to even stand before us and call us babuji and walk barefoot in front of our houses as inscribed in the upanishad or maybe we could become like hebrews and become malays only by birthright and call ridhuan tees and the mamaks infidels or goyims.. pray mr greg lopez kutty of lopez, what do you want us to become before we become murderous for being insulted.. because what you wrote is insulting, but..whatever..

        As stated by previous commentators, you have your own stupid set of beliefs based on a few biased published articles that deliberately paint a negative picture of the muslims and make a vile conclusion of 1 billion muslims which is pretty shallow for a self professed academic.

        I don’t see someone who engage in debates but rather put posts that deliberately deviced as negate any debates… for example.. saying that your are black to the core, literally.. but i don’t need an academic reference for that.

  42. Greg lopez,

    as for your accusation that Dr Mahathir humiliated the Sultans, I am not so sure about it.

    Rather, Dr Mahathir put the rulers into the proper place. Respect them but do remember like any other humans, they are also mere mortals with inherent weaknesses. Just like you, me, Guan Eng or my mother.

    Malay rulers are not “dewa”. Putting them above the law will eventually breed generation of Royal family who could not care less about the rakyat.

    Dr Mahathir pushed legislation to make Rulers accountable for their personal actions. is that not a hallmark of a Good leader.

    As for PPSMI, whether we agree or not with Dr Mahathir, nobody can deny that his intention is good.

    AND I seldom missed UMNO General assembly especially on the last day , albeit not in PWTC but in comfort of my humble abode. Please do enlighten me where Dr Mahathir said not to depend on Allah. what he said is that seeking knowledge is compulsory in Islam. Through knowledge, a nation can defend its rights, pride, dignity.

    1. MINY,

      Any country on you re presenting them for the MISS WORLD yet ??

      Brilliant deduction NadZee + Taliban =

  43. Hi Shamsul,

    Your referring to my discussion with the PERKASA youth chief. I was pointing out to Armand that the mission of PERKASA was contradictory because it had Mahathir as its Patron when it was Mahathir who did everything against what PERKASA was trying to defend.

    Mahathir did not humiliate the Sultans? Are you aware of the media coverage of the Sultans by the mainstream media highlighting their transgressions.

    I agree with you that Sultans are not dewa and should be put in their proper place, which is out of politics.

    I think PPSMI was ill-conceived (policy announced before policy was formulated. Read the academic literature around PPSM – insufficient competent teachers to teach Science and Maths in English, majority of Malaysian children’s weak command of English, especially Malay children, knowledge is best transferred through the home language, etc ). Mahathir’s real reason to introduce PPSMI was to control the PAS run madrasah post 9-11.

    I’ll try to look up the internet for coverage on UMNO in the early 1990s, when Mahathir was at his strongest and feared no one. It was the era of the Melayu Baru and UMNO Baru.

    Appreciate your feedback.

  44. Hi MalaysianinNewYork | Jun 30, 2012 at 10:18 am

    I’m not Anglophile, and I know that democracy has its weakness.

    I’m also not a PR supporter. I just think that if have to choose between two weak coalitions, in a poor quality democracy such as Malaysia, PR seems to be the better choice.

    It is not entrenched, its coalition members are weak or their own right but strong when working together. They also have many “new blood”. These makes them more reliant on pleasing the people, because they know otherwise, they will be kicked out.

    This will lead to populism no doubt, but at least the people benefit, as the three main political parties moderate each other, and in trying to reach out to the public.

    Your also right that I/we should stop bickering and laying blame at each other and focus on solutions .

    Maybe we should do that.

    Maybe we can discuss what are the key challenges Malaysia faces.

    Maybe we can discuss what we think are the solutions rather than laying blame at each other, and which political party is better at what.

    Maybe Helen would be kind enough to start a post on “What are the key challenges that Malaysia faces?”

    But I leave this entirely to Helen (this is her blog after all) and all her readers.

    Salam hormat.

  45. Hi Greg;

    You mentioned “In a poor quality democracy such as Malaysia, PR seem to be a better choice”.. Care to elaborate.. What do you mean poor quality democracy and why PR seem to be better choice”?

  46. Greg Lopez,

    Dr Mahathir can take the easy way out by pretending everything is OK when a Sultan drove away a luxury car or a Sultan who interferes in day to day state administration.

    But the result would have been a disaster, “a stitch in time saves nine” or equivalent Malay proverbs” Takut titik lalu tumpah”.

    Dignity of monarchy system must be earned. Highlighting the excess is a problem or the excess itself. It is in line with Islamic teaching itself.

    As for PERKASA, it does express anything that in contrast with Dr mahathir’s view. PERKASA is just an NGO just like HINDRAF to Indians or DJZ to chinese. PERKASA defends Malay rights without threatening non Malays. Of course to some, for Malays to defend Malay rights is a racist act. Only they can lament of UMNO conducting etnic cleansing without being accused of racism. Malays cant voice their concern.

    AND WHAT make you think PPSMI is to run counter PAS madrasah style. English is not an alien language in Malaysia . Most Malaysians understand although they may not be that language.

    Why underestimate children ability to learn Science and Math in English. The problem is not the language. The real problem is the attitude.

    Why DAP really hates UMNO. Or rather why DAP is so relentless in inciting Chinese that they are not treated fairly in Malaysia( despite winning in Malay area or having UMNO led Govt contributing RM50 million to build UTAR) ? Why?

    The answer lies in the fact that the only thing that stands between DAP and its completion of Lim Dynasty is UMNO.

    1. Hi Shamsul,

      As a democrat, I believe all organisations and individuals should have a place in Malaysia.

      PAS wants an Islamic state which literally changes the nature of Malaysia. If PAS is a legitimate organisation, then PERKASA should also be allowed. With that same logic, even the Malayan Communist Party should be allowed to exist.

      As long as all are prepared to ensure that democratic norms remain the way in which Malaysians choose their government. Violence must be abhorred at all cost – violence by the state, by vested groups or individuals.

      I am unable to prove that Mahathir wanted control the madrasah so best disregard that claim.

      As for the quality of English in Malaysia, my readings of various reports and surveys (e.g. from the private sector) seems to think that the competency of Malaysian workers is suspect

      If you have time, read the NEM1&2, Read any of the World Bank reports on Malaysia.

  47. Greg,

    I am not so sure about that. What I see is that some non Muslim politicians are not respecting Islam and Muslim sensivities but insist that their religions be respected.

  48. Shamshul,

    Your comment is too controversial. Perhaps you’d like to rephrase?

    Also it’s too serious a charge that I don’t think we ought to make.


  49. 129. Goondoo | Jun 30, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    Read any analysis of how Malaysia is classified (e.g. from the Economist Intelligence Unit, Freedom House, Heritage Foundation, Human Rights Watch, Asian Barometer, etc)

    For scholarly works read, Levitsky and Way (2002)

    I have a quick compilation here:

    125. forrestcat | Jun 30, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Your right about WW1, WW2, Hiroshima, bombing of Germany at WW2,

    Your right about Christians and Muslims having a violent past, about all the cultures, having a violent streak.

    My comments are to be read within the context of my discussion with NadZree.

    Do tell me of a time where the Muslim people of Malaysia (not political parties or liberal Muslim NGOs) stood up for the rights of minorities.

    1,000 over people have died in government detention centres – have the Muslim Malaysians stood up and demanded for an explanation?

    Look at how Ambiga is being treated compared to Samad Said – why?

    Don’t the Malays have any sense of justice for those weaker than them?

    1. Hi Greg;

      I was expecting you benchmark Malaysia against the rest of the world when you said “poor quality” Malaysia. Where do you put Malaysia against other world democratic countries such as USA, Singapore, India and Israel.

      In Malaysia, in the last election 5 states fell to the opposition and in Kelantan, it was ruled by the opposition for the last 20 years. In “poor quality” Malaysia we had voters turnout of more than 80% and every race got the chance to vote party of their choice.

      In USA, I presume a “good quality” country, voters turn-out was less than 50%, some blacks were denied their right to vote and Bush won because of some dubious votes.

      In Israel, democracy is applicable only to the Israelis. In Singapore, oppositions leaders were muzzled with threat of bankruptcy. In India, in every elections some ethnic group will always get killed during the election.

      Being yourself as academic, can you tell us how you do the methodology and calculation to rank Malaysia as “poor quality”.

      Of course the election in Malaysia is not perfect and the government is doing something to improve it.

      Dear Greg; You have yet to answer on my second question; Why PR is the better choice?

    2. Hi Greg;

      “Do tell me of a time where the Muslim people of Malaysia (not political parties or liberal Muslim NGOs) stood up for the rights of minorities”

      We gave you the right since 1957 for you to become citizen of this country, the right to practise your mother tongue, your culture, your religion and the right for you to form your political parties and these right were given without anyone shedding blood, and without you fighting for this right.It was a straight forward negotiation between the Minority (Indian, Chinese) and the Majority leaders.(Malay).

      Greg; How do you feel, if you are a Harijan (untouchables) in India and in Malaysia. Your life will be poles apart, isn’t it? Upto now the Harijans are still fighting for their human rights in India .

      Can you share with us, what other rights that you are talking about.?

      “1,000 over people have died in government detention centres – have the Muslim Malaysians stood up and demanded for an explanation?”

      You are painting as if this country is a police state country similar to Chile during Pinochet time , Hitler Germany or Stalin.Russia In this country, only criminals were detained and there may be some excessive force being used to extract information from the criminals. Out of the 1,000 deaths as claimed by you, how many died because of brute force being used?

      If this country is similar to Chile Pinoichet, I am sure you will be targetted by the Special Branch when you come back. The fact that you are daring to give your actual name and your photo, you indirectly belieive that this county is not a Police state country.Betul tak Greg?

      1. “We gave you the right since 1957 for you to become citizen of this country, the right to practise your mother tongue, your culture, your religion and the right for you to form your political parties and these right were given without anyone shedding blood, and without you fighting for this right.It was a straight forward negotiation between the Minority (Indian, Chinese) and the Majority leaders.(Malay).

        Greg; How do you feel, if you are a Harijan (untouchables) in India and in Malaysia. Your life will be poles apart, isn’t it? Upto now the Harijans are still fighting for their human rights in India.”

        Need I say anymore about how Malaysian Muslims think of other Malaysians. Thank you Goodoo. I believe your views above are the vies of most Muslims in Malaysia.

        I hear the exact same words, sentences, etc when I discuss with UMNO members, with PERKASA supporters, This is Nasir Safar, this is Ahmad Ismail, this is Ibrahim Ali.

        Tuanku pernah dengar tak mengenai konsep kewarganegaraan (citizenship). It is based on rights and responsibilities. Not about being grateful.

        Tuanku – ini kurun ke-21 daa….

        Read this article for a quick understanding of what really holds Malaysia back. Neither Pakatan Rakyat or BN can reform this country, if the majority of Muslims continue to have Tang Teramat Mulia Tuanku Goodoo’s attitude.

        And for analysis on the problems of regime change, you will see that various Malaysia specialists see that reforms are nearly impossible.

        But anyway, whoever said that democratic transition was easy. Very few countries actually do it painlessly.

        OK, need to really get back to pressing matters.

      2. Hi Greg;

        Did I say you must be grateful to whatever the good deeds that Malays had done to you.

        What I am asking to you is to compare with other countries. Over here it is not necessary for anyone to shed any blood in order to get their rights. These rights were granted via peaceful negotiation by our leaders.

        In USA, the blacks need to fight for their rights. They marched, they protested and they adopted non violence civil obedience. In the 1960s they were denied the right to vote and in bus they were forced to be segregated, they need to give up their seat in favour of the white. This happened in the 1960s, Greg.

        For the Chinese in USA, they were also denied the right via Chinese Exclusion Act until 1945 when this racist act was nullified because of World War 2.

        In India, I am sorry to say until today, the Harijans were denied their basic human right. The Muslims over there were treated worse than the Harijans.

        You pernah dengar perkataan bersyukur. You must be thankful that your grandparents had decided to come to Malaysia instead of staying put in India. Otherwise, you will continue the life of other Harijans – as “shit carrier” .

        You have yet to answer my question “What other rights you are talking about?

  50. One last clarification to forrestcat on this point

    “..As stated by previous commentators, you have your own stupid set of beliefs based on a few biased published articles that deliberately paint a negative picture of the muslims and make a vile conclusion of 1 billion muslims which is pretty shallow for a self professed academic…”

    That was not what I said. Read properly-lah bro.

    :..Muslims demonstrated violently and killed people when drawings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) were made in the Danish paper. But Muslims say nothing when their own people make the strongest insults against other religion (just like you have given excuses here)…”

    Tak-kan tak faham bahasa inggeris kot

    Did I say that Muslims are violent people responsible for the killings of millions?

    I said that Muslims in Malaysia demanded often with the threat of force, and sometimes with force, for their rights to be protected.

    Imagine, if the non-Msulims protested like the “Cow Head demonstration” that they did not want mosque’s to be built because it would be to noise: nyawa melayang bang.

    I must also say that you have impeccable language, that would make any mother proud.

    1. Hi Greg;

      “Imagine, if the non-Msulims protested like the “Cow Head demonstration” that they did not want mosque’s to be built because it would be to noise: nyawa melayang bang”

      Any particular demonstration that you can you have in mind by the non Muslims that caused their nyawa to be melayang. I presume, melayang mean killed by the Malays/ Muslims.

      In 1969, Chinese/ Indian demonstrated to chase the Malays out of Kuala Lumpur. No chinese/Indians died during this demonstration but the insulting words hurt many Malay bystanders.

      The next day, the Malays also demanded a demonstration to counter the insults thrown by the Chinese/Indians. You got an angry crowd and May 13 happened after that.

      I have posted few articles in this blog on the Malay Sino relationship in Malaysia and this archipelago. I stand to be corrected that all of the conflicts happened because it was started by the non Malays. The Malays were only reacting..

      1. May 13. Can you give the breakdown of the official number of people who died according to racial breakdown. Do you know what the unofficial number is.

        Have a read of the Hansard and see the language used. Everyone was using strong racial languages at that time. Malays, Chinese, Indians, everyone.

        I agree that the Chinese started it in the immediate aftermath. But don’t you think its interesting that Chinese were killed mostly around Kg. Bahru (Chief Minister’s house) and not widespread throughout Peninsular Malaysia.

        Amazing that Malaysia’s excellent security forces could counter communist activities but could not defend their own citizens from attacks by the Malays?

        Have you spoken to non-Muslim officers that were involved in security operations during May 13?

        Do you know that after May 13, the government began to systematically remove all non-Muslims from the security apparatus, especially at the highest levels?

        Do you know why the Royal Malay Regiment was replaced by the Sarawak Rangers to patrol KL?

        After May 13, non-Muslims accepted their fate as second class citizens in this country. They realised that participating in democratic processes is not a viable option.

        However, there is a new generation now, the post May 13, 1969 generation, who views Malaysia differently. Only time will tell, whether UMNO will defend Putrjaya until theirs or more likely the non-Muslims bodies will be crushed.

        This is from Nur Jazlan:

        “…But his message doesn’t seem to resonate with the majority of the delegates and even among his bench of Supreme Council members who may have come to a conclusion that another event of racial and religious strife in the country is the best way to retain Malay power…”

        And why can UMNO do this. Because there are enough Malays who think like Goodoo.

      2. Hi Greg;

        On the May 13, you can read the details from and

        “Do you know why the Royal Malay Regiment was replaced by the Sarawak Rangers to patrol KL?”

        What do you expect … after you insult the Malays, do you think any Malay police and army will protect you?

        “After May 13, non-Muslims accepted their fate as second class citizens in this country”

        Prior to May 13 tragedy, the DAP were poisoning the non Malays that they were 3rd class citizen because of the special priveleges given to the Malays in the constitution. The fact during this time, the Malays were mainly poor, 90% of the economy was controlled by the non Malays and 70% of the Division A civil servants came from the minority race. Remember during this time, NEP was not yet enforced.

  51. Gee, I find myself wanting to tell Lopez lots of things but somehow I feel he’s not a worthy adversary from what I have read so far. Anyone else has that nagging feeling or is it just me?

    1. Iqraq,

      Nak buat camna aku yang gatal, but at least we know how predictable he is, his spins and how jump from one issue to another once he is cornered, And the stories they made up..from discussing local issue he broaden it to world context but after being whack he retreat back ….gue pusing ahhh…..nd a break from him tonight…..goin to domestic issue jap something light n fun….

    2. Iqraq, whether Greg is your worthy adversary or not is not the issue? Why take offence for someone who could be 20 years younger than you who did not understand how Malaysians have been amongst each other in the pre Dr M regime.

      Remember those days in the 70’s & 80’s when we can go exchange Hari Raya, Chinese New Year, Deepavali and Christmas kuih muih between our neighbors less those good looking Malay gals without their tudung.

      These young bloods don’t know the affiances that we had within the community minus the politics, religion or race but just humanity those days. Religion, race and origin is an agenda for the politicians not for us individual Malaysians who have lived and prospered along with them then and today if our consciousness and responsibility is in place.

      1. Not an issue at all… I get the impression that Lopez craves recognition as some sort of intellectual but having been in academia for some time I think I can recognize who the bona fide intellectuals are. Unfortunately the word that comes to my mind when I read Lopez’s writings is a 4-letter word beginning and ending with ‘a’. What I’m trying to say is that Lopez’s writings do not merit the effort of a response. Itu sahaja.

        By the way I do remember those days… Hence my support for Satu Sekolah Untuk Semua.

  52. Miny,

    Or is it NadZee = Taliban = Melayu Ultra = Right Wing Muslim = …..??
    Miss ‘World Peace’ wake up ..??

    1. NadZee, donelah tension, it is meant on a figurative term. Your action or your desire is not what I dictate you are. You will be who you want to be when you decide to be. I have no qualms on the right wing Muslims or whoever vent their needs if it is just and fair.

      Every one of us have a right to fight and defend their own way of life, but not at the expense of the others that nobody is interesting in solving these issues amongst us because we think we know best. I can’t speak for all, but I can speak for from my own experience that Malaysian irrespective of our origin have and had a good thing going until late for what is politically expedient

  53. LOL you say “ MINY @ Talk is CHEAP DUDE. Hey you should joint the Miss Universe Pageant then, because that kind of idealism will qualify you as the “QUEEN” (yes pun intended) of the strive who strives for world peace.

    Sure talk is cheap? what have you done ? You also talk but did you make a change. If you did please tell me where have you been all these while as nothing changed? Don’t worry whether I qualify for the pageant as that is not your problem but something I need to deal with for myself.

    The sad part of most bloggers are they end up talking cock like you, as they will live in their comfort and dictate what it has to be without any action for their own escapism. Surely you can assume and classify me under the same bracket, but you don’t know me or what I do besides being the apek who washes dishes in China town in New York.

    It is okay to classify me, because you can’t do anything more rather than brooding like the rest of us do in Helen’s blog. If you were that able than we would not be having such turmoil amongst us for a simple reason how humanity has and never been our grouses for the society but what and how it fits our own need. Can I be any clear than this.


    Helen’s blog triggered an apology from the Kim regime for the 51-photo fest — see ‘Penang govt sorry over slip-up‘. With backing from readers, bloggers will endeavour to channel public opinion on the issues we take up. — Helen

  54. Greq Lopez,

    This is not Malay vs non malay bashing forum.

    As for conferment of citizenship, actually many people are confused. It may sound as if it was a bargain between Malay and non malay leaders.

    Actually in true sense it was not. The situation leading to 1957 is a country at that time exclusively Malays with sizable immigrants of chinese and indian origins. ThE Malay rulers in hallmark of magnaminity( attributed to islamic principle no less) agreed to en bloc citizenship, again in scale unheard anywhere in this planet.

    The Chinese and indians( no offense) were then mere immigrants with no position to demand citizenships in the first place . If at that time these rulers rejected the citizenship on non Malays, there maybe confusion but nobody can challenge them as that was their rights and theirs ONLY.

    Again that was history. Despite whatever said about Islam, it I believes is a source of beauty and generosity. Its concept is appealing and simple. No intermediary between you and God.

    Caliph, sultan , Amir or imam are mere mortals and cant condemn you to hell.Although Nik Aziz or PAS like to think otherwise.

    Centuries ago, conquest of a new territory although done in name of islam did not result in people being forced to convert to Islam. Unlike Spanish conquest of many parts of Latin america or Philipines.

    In Malaysian context, the biggest division starts with different school systems. Let us face it. Some politicians like to keep us apart so that it is easy to poison us. When you do not know the other races, you tend to view them suspiciuosly.

    That was why my Indian friend told me that he rejected HINDRAF way as he knew how malicious their remarks that it made againsts Malays( comparing Malays with atrocity by Serbia).

    1. You are quoting UMNO’s version of the formation of Malaya:

      As for conferment of citizenship, actually many people are confused. It may sound as if it was a bargain between Malay and non malay leaders.

      Actually in true sense it was not. The situation leading to 1957 is a country at that time exclusively Malays with sizable immigrants of chinese and indian origins. ThE Malay rulers in hallmark of magnaminity( attributed to islamic principle no less) agreed to en bloc citizenship, again in scale unheard anywhere in this planet.
      The Chinese and indians( no offense) were then mere immigrants with no position to demand citizenships in the first place . If at that time these rulers rejected the citizenship on non Malays, there maybe confusion but nobody can challenge them as that was their rights and theirs ONLY.

      Here is a more competent view of the formation of Malaya

      But most importantly Shamsul, you confirm my view that the majority of Muslims who follow the UMNO’s view of the formation of Malaya simply do not understand the concept of citizenship, the rule of law and democratic norms.

      Citizenship, rule of law and democratic norms are rights – not privileges to be given and taken away as and when the majority group feels as such.

      As Pak Lah himself mentioned several times, First World Infrastructure, Third World Mentality.

      1. It wasn’t Pak Lah but Dato’ Kadir Jasin in one of his Sunday columns who coined ‘First World infrastructure, Third World mentality’ in the context of facilities management capabilities in up-keeping the (then) newly built KLIA, KLCC.

        When one spins too many yarns, it appears one has sacrificed accuracy for story-telling..:-)

      2. In response to [HM, syd-hk. | Julai 2, 2012 at 5:51 am ]

        You noted that Kadir Jasin was the first to use this term. (appreciate if you could provide the source to support your statement).

        It maybe the case. Its not uncommon for journalists to get tips from politicians on what issues to harp on – that’s spin.

        But it was Badawi who argued this theme consistently, beginning with his speech to the Malaysian Oxbridge Society as soon as he became Prime Minister.

        He had wanted to differentiate his administration from Mahathir’s. He correctly diagnosed that under Mahathir, Malaysia had progressed physically but had lost its moral compass and intellectual riguor. Mahathir had not only destroyed democracy in Malaysia, but also within UMNO. Able leaders were kicked out or put into cold storage.

        Badawi tried to steer Malaysia towards a more moderate path, but failed. Failed because of the old guard in UMNO led by Mahathir. This same old guard that has, and will cause the downfall of Najib.

        Here are some public sources of the information:

        Spin is definitely not my area. But I guess to a society that is so polarised, searching for the truth will be illusive.

  55. Greg Lopez,

    Again you are confused. in 1957, Chinese and indians were mere immigrants. they can request for citizenships but if refused by the Lord of the land, what can they say.

    I am not belittling Chinese and indians. rather, I am telling you in any country around the world, what ca n you say if your host country reject your citizenship application.

    Rest assured, no one is questioning your citizenship. The only one being questioned is the Malays. they are accused of racism when the otherwise is the truth. They are asked to renounced whatever their rights but non Malays especially Chinese politicians go all out to ensure that children are separated from tender age.

    Yet, these Chinese politicians lament why malays feel that they are “pendatang’. No prize for guessing right here.

  56. Again – that what you think you know.

    You obviously do not know history, the situation surrounding the granting of independence to the Alliance (the emerging Cold War, the breakdown of the Bristish Empire, the rise of the Left in Malaysia, the freedom movements in the colonised countries that were anti-imperialism).

    All you know is what UMNO has told you.

    Read Art Harun’s article properly. Of you actually have interests, go and dig up the source materials.

    The Alliance were not the preferred choice by the people. The left was.

    But once again, and most importantly, you just don’t understand the concept of citizenship.

    When thousands of Indonesians or Bangladeshis of Minadano people become citizens of Malaysia, we should not ask them to remember the social contract. We tell them you are a citizen of Malaysia and you shall enjoy all the rights and privileges that are granted to Malaysians.

    The new citizens are not obliged to be grateful to anyone except to uphold the Constitution (The rule of law). That’s all.

    Read this article by Art Harun to understand .

    The real problem in Malaysia is that there are very few Art Harun’s but millions of Shamsul Annuar, Ibrahim Ali, Harrusani, Hasan Ali, Nasir Safar, Mahathir Mohamed, Muhyiddin Yassin…

    And Malaysia will not progress as a nation until we have more Art Haruns.

    Also, please read this book when you have the time, and tell me, when actually did the Malays first ever consider themselves to be a citizen of a state/country rather than loyal serfs to a sultan.

    The nation state of Federated Malaya is a new development, and it happened when all were here. That is the starting point of this county.

    1. Greg,

      ello Macha,

      “you obviously do not history”;”All you know is what Umno has told you”… this is a sign of you are going to lose the debate..kalau nak debate rebut with facts la kawan…dey ane, u ingat kami tarak baca punca orang kah…u are lucky because umno ruled this country..because umno leaders taught the kampong folks to accept the non malays as BN candidates in malay majority areas over the muslim Pas candidates. During that time, PAS will label the muslim that choose non muslim as kafirs.

      fyi, i am not an umno member and in the last election, i choose a DAP candidate. So ane, if u want us to vote PKR, bagi substancelah dalam your argument dan jangan lari from one subject to another subject.

      Greg, u masih belum jawab soalan saya, 1.why PKR is better? 2.what other rights that you are fighting for?

  57. Greg,

    For someone who claims to be an impartial and factual academic, you are anything but.

    First of all,you have no qualification academically or first-hand whatsoever in history. You should stick to economics, which is your field of expertise.

    If you wish to debate history, then come down to earth and leave your superiority complex of “I-m-an-Aussi-educated Phd academic” nonsense aside.

    I would expect as an academic (even though not a historian but a Pakatan cheerleader) to use academic methods in supporting your arguments and points.

    To support your views you cite Art Harun. What kind of credibility people like Art Harun or even Kua have in history.You say we have been brainwashed by UMNO’s version of history, Yet none of any historian of note, whether local or foreign, dispute this version of history.

    The real problem is people like Art Harun, Kua others like yourself are trying to change history by making it suit your political viewpoints so that it supports and aligns with Pakatan’s goals.

    You say “The new citizens are not obliged to be grateful to anyone except to uphold the Constitution (The rule of law). That’s all.”. This is one of the dumbest statements I have come across from an academic. This shows how shallow the thinking process behind it.

    You sound like citizenship is akin to buying chicken from a wet market. You might be surprised to know that citizenship is a privilage and not a right. Many countries have very stringent process to grant citizenship. The right to grant citizenship solely resides with the country and no one has the right to demand it.

    If you are an uneducated Ah Beng from Kepong with zero skills (other than an ability to wash dishes) and not able to converse in English, do you think Australia, the UK or the US will grant him citizenship ?

    I think you miss the point that no other country in the world in history has ever granted mass citizenship to millions of foreign unskiled workers as in the case of Malaysia.

    You also do not seem to understand the history behind social contract. There is a big difference when you grant citizenship by millions with the cases where it is granted in hundreds or thousands as in other countries.

    The social contract was necessary because it alters the nature of the country and the socio political equilibrium. All the countries in the world have policies to protect their natives so that the immigrants do not get overwhelmed. That’s why the US or Australia have very strict control over whom and how many they take in every year.

    And finally, you say the Alliance was never the choice of the people but the left. Are you joking ? What kind of proof you have to justify this ridiculous statement ? FYI, the Alliance won the GE before and after Merdeka.

    1. nice one calvin..i got the feeling this guy Greg is really suck and one bloody arsehole.

      i enjoy discussion with someone of intellect and with the discussion , we can disagree but at least we will try to understand each other pont of view.

      but with greg, he will jump from one topic to another topic, he like to throw names, he like to make conclusions without substance , he also like to belittle other people.

      ini typical orang pakatan ke?

  58. Greg,

    “..that is the starting point of this country….”

    I am afraid not. I do not know when was the starting point for this country but certainly not when it was known as Federation of malay states in 1948. At times when foreigners began to come to our shore, they found that this is not a “no govt land’. The land had already had a systematic governance. Trade, or war ultimatum were than made and made only with Malay Rulers.

    There is nothing to be embarrased with facts and history. The fact is that even at the lowest point of colonialism when British did try to push Malayan Union, it still recognised the “owner of the Land”. It did not insist Royal signatures out of loves. Rather it was legal requirement.

    Because of people who think like me than you find malays as percentage of citizen of the land dropped from as high as 95% to less than 55% on Aug 31, 1957 as automatically immigrants( including your parents were granted citizenships).

    I never said anything about asking indians or chinese to be grateful. that is too much to ask from you .

    The way you reply shows you are not grateful to anyone.

    As for the Social Contract, its confused by many. It becomes an issue when many politicians hiding behind so called imjustices challenging malay rights , forgetting that their rights can also be questioned.

    1. Shamsul,

      As a matter of courtesy, allow me to answer the valid points you raised.

      (1) The starting point of this country is 31st Aug 1957. The Alliance were handed Independence only and only because the elites the three major races demonstrated that had the will to work together and promised to protect British interest.

      It was a deal between elites among the coloniser and colonised. The Sultans had very little influence.

      (2) The only reason that the Sultans were approached was more to do with British colonial policy and strategy that actual recognisition of their rights. The British found out that it was more cost effective to use Sultans as their puppets rather than direct rule (such as India). Legal requirements were a mere facade.

      (3) You noted, “Because of people who think like me than you find malays as percentage of citizen of the land dropped from as high as 95% to less than 55% on Aug 31, 1957 as automatically immigrants( including your parents were granted citizenships)”…that was the deal done by Alliance deal. They wanted independence and this was what they got. However, you remember racial composition because you are driven by racial considerations, an outcome of the Alliance formula.

      Had the British allowed more democratic norms to dictate who would lead independent Malaya, the left would have won it hand down. We would all now be known as Melayu (the Javanese, the Minagkabaus, the Bugis, the Sulawesis, the Banjars, migrants from the archipelago, including those further from Arab, India, Middle East, and China).

      If this was the scenario, we would not care what the percentage of Malays were, because we would all be Melayus and Malaysians.

      (4) I am grateful to God.

      Being asked to be grateful is something the BN and often certain leaders of the Malay community always asks non-Muslims to do.

      Have non-Muslims ever asked to Muslims to be grateful to us. No we don’t. We just ask for our rights to be respected.
      We don’t demand the government to take care of us or give us hand-outs.

      In the interest of social justice and the legitimate rights of all citizens, we ask the government to take care of ALL poor Malaysians, including non-Muslims.

      When there are crooks among non-Muslims, we expect the government to take action against them. We don’t demand that they are protected because of their race or religion.

      If there are Christians who have broken the law, such as preaching to non-Muslims, I expect the government to take action against them. But at the same time I expect the government to also take action against Muslims who break the law.

      You see, I’m a Malaysian first, then my race and my religion. I wish more Muslims could do the same.

      1. Greg,

        Under (3), you wrote: “If this was the scenario, we would not care what the percentage of Malays were, because we would all be Melayus and Malaysians.”

        You’re referring to the left (puak kiri) pre-Independence who proposed the ‘people’s constitution’ whereby the nascent idea of Bangsa Malaysia was for all races in Malaya to become Melayu (you listed: “the Javanese, the Minangkabaus, the Bugis, the Sulawesis, the Banjars, migrants from the archipelago, including those further from Arab, India, Middle East, and China“).

        Let’s say we’re allowed to revisit the scenario. If you were to take a straw poll among your opposition-supporting friends today, i.e. those who do not have a ‘bin’ or ‘binti’ in their names but carry surnames like Wong or Lim,

        Taking a sample size of 50, and asking your friends this question – “Would you like to be known as a Melayu?” – how many of the 50 do you think will answer “Yes, please”?

        The positive percentages would be most interesting, don’t you think? :)

      2. Greg,

        Basically what you are saying is that the non Malays have less rights than the Malays because of the Bumi special rights handed under the Constituition and the Social Contract.

        There is little point in debating this as this was a compromise achieved by our forefathers. To question their wisdom and claim this was a mistake is meaningless since you are viewing the issue in comfort after more than 50 years in a very different socio political scenario. In those days the socio-political and balance of power was very different. In the balance of things, it was probably a very fair deal at that time.

        The spirit of the compromise was win-win since the non Malays wanted to be citizen while the Malays wanted to protect themselves.

        Of course viewed 50 years on it does look unfair with non Malays having less rights. This I can understand (though not agree with).
        My personal view is that perhaps the bumis and the non-bumis should sit down and discuss in the spirit of compromise to revise the Social Contract so that it could reflect the current situation better.

        But this has to be done in a non confrontational manner. I believe the bumis are by nature magnimanous and generous people and would be open for such discussion if the spirit of mutual respect is adhered too. Unfortunately many non bumis adopt such disrespectful and strident tone in discussing the Social Contract and this puts off the bumis.

        Th problem with your argumentis that you are trying to paint as the situation (bumi- non bumi rights ) is an act of oppression and injustice rather than a product of historical compromise. Secondly you are trying to say that this is all the fault of BN to have such situation.

        The fact is even if Pakatan takes over the Fed Govt,there will have no choice to abide by the Constitution and the Social Contract since this is not a policy pr practice of BN but the Consitutition that was agreed by our forefathers.

        Have you seen the policies of PAS state governements ? You claim Pakatan have a more enlightened policies but try visiting Kedah and Kelantan to see for yourself the kinds of restrictions placed on non Muslims. Of course the Pakatan media tend to gloss over these facts by saying Nik Aziz allows Buddhist temples, etc,etc. But these are not enlightened policies as such things are common in every part of Malaysia.

        You have conveniently failed to mention how PAS wants Hudud to be implemented or does not allow women to have equal standing as men in every aspect of life.

      3. Helen Ang | Julai 3, 2012 at 11:07 am

        Hi Helen,

        Its a conceptual issue driven by values and vision.

        Conceptually – We now have the bumiputera concept. Its a political construct. For instance you have bumiputera Islam, bumiputera kristian, bumiputera animis. But it does not matter, everyone is a bumiputera.

        Conceptually – Mahathir’s Bangsa Malaysia with the 9 pillar of Malaysia should be – brilliant.

        Conceptually – Najib’s 1Malaysia – fantastic.

        All of these moves away from race to citizenship.

        This was what the left first had in mind. Melayu as the concept. Nothing to do with the race or religion. Remember at that time, “the Malays” did not see themselves as one entity.

        That’s why its United MalayS National Organisation – it was an amalgam of different Malay people who were loyal first and foremost to their Sultans, and their region – not to a state.

        The left sold the idea or vision that we are all Melayu as a civic concept of citizenship – then the bin and binti would not arise. Just as all French (from wherever you are, are French). You could be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, animist, agnostic – does not matter. And where the principle of social justice for the weak operated, we would be doing very well I think (this is a projection of course)

        I believe most Malaysians will agree to a concept that makes all of us treated equally and where the benefits are not based on our racial identities.

        My point is why can’t we all be Malaysians first, and treat everyone equally.

        1. The Orang Asli are not ‘bumiputera’. Article 153 is explicit that “special position” pertains to Melayu (defined in Article 160) and to the natives of Sabah & Sarawak.

          While I agree that some tribes are pribumi/indigenous (Jakun, Senoi, Temiar, etc), I do not see why you & Pakatan would want to perpetuate this political construct of ‘bumiputera-ism’, even if it is expanded to include the Orang Asli, Chinese & Indians as after all, bumiputera is an invented word for political expediency.

          And the application of term is ironic when Portuguese descendants and mamaks can be bumiputera but Orang Asli are not.

          Secondly, you say “Just as all French (from wherever you are, are French)”. I’ve no issues with that. By the same token, our nationality is Malaysian (just like you say the French are French).

          You’re Malaysian, I’m Malaysian and so are most of this blog’s readers and commenters.

          So my quibble again is that you’re arguing that the left (puak kiri) pre-Merdeka would have offered us a more inclusive citizenship than the Perikatan (Alliance).

          My question (drawing from your statement that the People’s Constitution drafted by AMCJA-Putera offers everyone the chance to be Melayu, i.e. the Kimma/Ridhuan Tee wet dream) is

          whether the Wongs and the Lims, either in the 1950s or today, if you were to ask them this question — “Do you want to be known as a Malay?” — do you think they’re going to say “Yes, I want to be called a Melayu”.

          Remember, with citizenship, they were already Malayans, as we are today are Malaysians.

  59. Do not try and rewrite history. The starting point of this country can be traced back from Parameswara’s Malacca or in fact from the Nusantara era just as Singapore was Temasek and not a Stamford Raffle’s discovery.

    Even new citizens are bound to the constitution that clearly states the rights of Bumiputras and the position of the Sultans, to say the least.

    In fact, those Banglas, Indons and Burmese that you refer to have more respect for this country, its people, customs and language.

  60. Calvinsankaran,

    Many thanks for your reply. i notice Greg tends to belittle my view by simply saying that is the view of UMNO.

    Greg tried very hard to deny contributiion of Malay rulers wih regards to citizenships.

    1. Shamsul, I apologise if I come across as belittling your views. That’s not my intention.

      What I want to say is that your views are consistent with what UMNO is saying. That non-Malays must be grateful to the Malays for allowing them to become citizens of Federated Malaya. That neglects the historical context of the bargaining between the coloniser and the colonised.

      Also, could you kindly provide some authoritative reference/scholarly works that shows that the Malay rulers contributed towards the jus soli deal. As far as my reading go, they had no choice but to accept the deal that was brokered by Tunku Abdul Rahman.

      Much appreciated.

  61. Ya ALLAH not again…Shamsul,Calvin you guys haven been here before,I think cuma different ‘greg’. Me never want to get involve and don’t intend to cos it gets no where.

    Greg, kau nie betul dahsyat la, engkau punya lompat dan pusing dari satu isu ke satu isu waduhhhh….yang kau kantoi kau tinggalkan je….

    Greg ooiii kalau nak berdebat jawap dulu topic yang belum selesai sebelum lompat ke isu lain…..Aku yang sekolah kampong nie pong tau hak tu…kalau tak jangan main tembak je.

  62. Folks,

    Greg befriended me in FB in order to show how superior he is with his Aussie PhD and how smart Pkatan supporters are.

    Then he was thrashed in a few debates with me and he lost even in economic matters. That really embarrased him since he had his academic friends in FB who also saw the debate so he “unfriended” me in FB.

    It is always his style to attack BN and support Pakatan using his perverted logic rather than facts and data. He tend to sound like an academic and tend to hide the fact that he’s an economic rather than a political science PhD student.

    His modus operandi is to jump from topic to topic and stick to the same old line of BN’s corruption and abuse of power. His website has the photo of Hishamudin with Kris as the mast head. So you can guess his game.

    I am all for debate with someone who speaks fact but not a deluded and patronising joker who thinks he’s superior because he’s studying in the Oz.

    Greg’s game is to influence the opinion while trying to pretend he’s an impartial academic. The fact is he’s a rabid pro-Pakatan cheerleader.

  63. Its been a good debate, albeit predictable.

    I take leave by asking the Muslims of Malaysia,

    Can you accept non-Muslims as equals?

    Can you accept non-Muslims leadership?

    Can you learn to judge a person by the content of his character, and not the colour of his skin, or the religion he professes?

    The answer to these questions will determine the long-term viability of this nation.

    Salam hormat!

  64. Greg,

    Enlighten me where I or any Malay who ever said you are not equal to Malays in eyes of law or Constitution.

    And a more suitable question is whether you can accept the fact that the country is “:ruled” by a brown muslim? Just because the party of your choice does not get the mandate to rule does not mean there is unequality. Rather, majority may not trust the party you prefer.


    Keeping quiet is an option. But it is a bad choice. Whether he believes or not, the facts must be told.

    1. Dear Shamsul,

      “…Enlighten me where I or any Malay who ever said you are not equal to Malays in eyes of law or Constitution…”

      In your view, do you think the non-Muslims are treated equally as the Malays are?

      163. goondoo | Julai 2, 2012 at 9:22 pm

      Your language is truly a testament to the fact that of kesopanan dan kesusilaan orang Melayu.

      I’m not really interested in who is voting for whom. As I stated, Malaysia’s problems go beyond PR or BN.

      Pepinsky has this to say:

      “..This is what many hope that a PR government would mean, and in rhetorical terms, that is what Najib’s 1Malaysia campaign promises. A recent article in the Economist suggests that many young Malaysians would welcome such a post-ethnic politics. But they will have to wait, for Malaysian politics as BN-versus-PR restates the ethnic politics framework without moving past it…”

      You see, unless we move past racial politics, we can never progress as a nation. The non-Malays have demonstrated that they can accept Malay leadership – that is without doubt but the real question is, “Can the Malays accept non-Malay leadership at the highest levels? “

    2. Shamsul,

      On your question:

      “..And a more suitable question is whether you can accept the fact that the country is “:ruled” by a brown muslim?..”

      The answer is yes, if they are capable and have integrity which rules out almost everyone from UMNO except perhaps Saifuddin Abdullah and Mustapha Mohammad, maybe Nur Jazlan and Ahmad Dahlan (though I don’t see how this is possible in a political regime built on a patronage system). Remember when Sharizat & NFC – no one showed leadership in demanding for her resignation.

      Or may I ask you – who do you think are the competent leaders in UMNO.

      On the PR side, I’m happy for Khalid Samad or Dzulkefly Ahmad, or Nurul Izzah and Rafizi (in the future if both of them keeps their integrity intact) to lead Malaysia. They are competent, capable and definitely people with integrity.

      But the question to you Shamsul – don’t you think Tony Pua would make a good finance minister, or Sivarasa Rasiah a good law minister, or Charles Santiago a good human resource minister, or Dr. Jeyakumar Devaraj a good health minister or Ambiga as the Human Rights Commissioner?

      They are capable, competent, and more importantly – scandal free.

  65. My fellow commentors, I know Greg have been subject to much criticism in this particular comment section. I really don’t care if he is a pseudo intellectual as these you can’t differentiate these days with our famous copy and paste and wiki being available. Mukin budak mentah, tapi janganlah tembak sampai takada peluru yang berasas.

    I am sure we don’t want Helen’s blog to turn out to be another BN based thoughts or PR based thoughts but rather one that find a balance where everyone is a winner for the society irrespective of the origin as long Malaysian mah. Setuju tak? After all Greg pun Malaysian. If we need to teach him, then let’s debate the predicament of Malaysians today rather cakap pasal sejarah yang kita sendiri tak tentu tapi hanya apa yang ditulis dan di proroganda untuk kehendak politik semasa ini.

    Let’s discuss on how we can contribute to ensure the society amongst us can see beyond the politics of the day if that is the truth and reality that our fellow brethren faces. For a start? Can anyone please list me the orphanage organization that involves Malay and Chinese children that needs any help and I am ready to support. I don’t want to talk about the Indians because it will become racist mah!!!. Okay tak?

    I am not being sarcastic here, but let’s face the truth, you sit in your kedai kopi and you see only those majority pariah Indians who come around and seek for donation. Aisyah man!!!!, even in welfare pun ada discrimination, macam mana ini hendak bentuk negara yang tulus dan benar ikut kehendak rakyat? Forget about the rule of law, BN or PR, follow the rule of humanity, then you have a community that we can cherish irrespective of our origin and live together without any division between us whether we are Malay, Chinese, Indian or lain-lain.

  66. think this shows what Malaysians are capable of and should continue to be can be with M. Nasir lyrics Alleycats singing [YouTube] then we have our very own and the one and only Sudirman with [YouTube].

    Hello Malaysians get a grip amongst each other that semua politiks yang menyesuaikan kehendak apa yang tak sepatut kepada sekalian di kalangan kami tanpa megira keasalan menjadi peluru kehendak politiks semasa.

    The Malays need not fear the genuine Malaysians, as we are all one as Malaysians. We don’t need someone else us to teach us about being Malaysian mainly the politicians because as Malaysians we can comprehend and understand the frustration and difficulty that Malaysian face because race, religion, origin is enhanced by the political nonsense without a concern for the truth and reality that faces our fellow Malaysians.

    I better shut my mouth, as I need to go back to my dish washing to ensure all the dishes are clean to serve the Kwailos in New York in a Malaysian Chinese restaurant in New York. Aaah!!! I forgot, I was at the Aerosmith concert in New York. What a bore, Alleycats and Sudirman would have been better. Malaysian mah!!!

    One week with Quentin Tarantino another week with Aerosmith, getting bored, not Malaysians agenda for this Chinese Apek in New York but only survival because I am not good enough for how it is politically expedient or you just hate me because even a Chinese apek in NY can do better than me. No friend, given the choice I would rather change places as I can to appreciate someone like M. Nasir & Sudirman who have been true Malaysian that have no division amongst us for our origin as Malaysian.

  67. Any one want to challenge Sudirman? Please make it known as he was Malaysian artist to the core. Race, religion or origin was not matter to him but what was a towering M’sian he has been for the truth and reality as a Malaysian irrescpective of his origin for Malaysians.

  68. My favourite artist [YouTube]. Saya ini Malaysian tanpa keasalan [YouTube]. Hello brother, apa nak dkato [YouTube], I love my Malay brethens because only in them you find the truth.

  69. Greg lopez,

    Perhaps you are not aware that this Govt (meaning the malay led Govt) has been accomodating to aspirations of non malays until to a point that it upsets Malays.

    That is the truth. Non malays get Govt funded schools, a rarity in this world. Oh sorry. The only country with separate school system. If for example Chinese community insists on school based on Mandarin and funded by Aussie Govt, they would be told off to accept Australian system or get out of the country.

    And there is no such thing “mandarin is preffered” in advertisement. They would be charged for racism. If your organization is too heavily employing Chinese, be prepared for visit by Aussie official asking you why no non Chinese are employed.

    And politicians like Guan eng who lied about many things including accusing others as racist will not survive. Too bad if you happen to utter ‘black metallic” to Dr zamri.

    And oh stop dreaming winning in non Chinese constituents like in Malaysia where the govt is so accomodating. And no such thing as STAR leaning to DAP while owned by MCA. In no time, the editor would be replaced with surprising efficiency.

    The problem with people like you is that you see Constitution the way you want to see. You refuse to understand that the Constitution as it is due to situation in Malaysia.

    No Malay rulers would want to grant citizenships on unprecedented scale without some guarantees enshrined by no less Constitution on Malays aspiration.

    For that i expect non malays to show some appreciation. Remember that the instruments of independence is itself signed by Malay rulers. They signed as they are then sovereign monarchs recognised by the whole world.

    SOMEONE said Malays need not fear genuine Malaysians. Yes. you are right. But no Malays fear genuine malaysians. Malays do not trust many politicians especially from DAP or PKR.

    Why? They see DAP talking about Lim dynasty only. Malays view or concern or aspirations are not mentioned by anyone in DAP. They see DAP as racist that continously lamenting why Chinese are treated as second class citrizens but fail to encourage Chinese to integrate with non Chinese.

    If you want to move from racial politics, start from tender age. And the only viable place is one school system.

    There is nothing wrong by appreciating the fact that citizenships are granted in scale unheard in any country in this planet. That alone shows magnaminity .

    Instead, Chinese politicians in turn accused Malays as racist.

    It was not a bargain as sorry to say Chinese and indians at that times have no legal position to demand citizenships. What can you say if the Lord of the land refuses your application.

    Remember many Chinese surrendered their citizenships and applied British citizenships as they thought they from Malacca and penang as former Crown Colony can do. But London rejected their applications. What can they do? Self immolating in front of Buckhingham Palace?

    1. 171. Helen Ang | Julai 3, 2012 at 3:58 pm

      HI Helen,

      [The Orang Asli are not ‘bumiputera’. Article 153 is explicit that “special position” pertains to Melayu (defined in Article 160) and to the natives of Sabah & Sarawak.]

      Yes, this was one of the biggest injustice that the we have committed as a nation.

      The difference in the French and Malaysian system is that the French treats everyone equally (through the rule of law – all French are protected.). This is not the case in Malaysia, where racism is institutionalised. Geoff Wade’s paper captures how legal instruments in Malaysia are predisposed towards ensuring Malay supremacy.

      What I envision for Malaysia is that the legal instruments and institutions in Malaysia do no discriminate against the minorities. One way to go about this is to not create “the other”. In Malaysia we do not refer to each other as Malaysians but by our ethnicity.

      And most of the comments from your Malay readers address non-Muslims as “the other” – (we should be grateful because we are not treated like Harijans (pariahs), like the blacks, etc) conveniently ignoring that the most corrupt people and those who have done the most damage to Malaysia are the people from BN, most especially UMNO, and their cronies. Why? Because Malay and Islamic supremacy has created the notion that Malays and Islam are superior to other races and religion and that when Muslims make terrible mistake error – it should be looked over.

      What is the most common thing that an UMNO person caught would say, “I have to only answer to Allah” or “Allah knows I’m innocent.” I just have to swear by the Quran. No rule of law. Kak Sharizat is the latest in this trend.

      However, if the focus of the nation was on citizenship and one identity (whatever you wish – whether its Malaysian or 1Malaysia or Bangsa Malaysia or Melayu) that defines all Malaysian, then an ideology such as Malay or Islamic supremacy cannot take hold, or will be seen for what it truly it is – blatant racism or bigotry and people who commit crime, Muslim or non-Muslim would face the full brunt of the law because you would not have any privilege by invoking Allah.

      Nurul Izzah captures a vision for Malaysia that I find very encouraging.

      This in no means derogate other constitutional provisions such as the position of Islam in official functions (it is not the national religion), the four limited areas for affirmative action – implemented reasonably, schools in vernacular language, freedom of religion for everyone including Muslims who want to believe in anything the choose other than state sanctioned version of Islam, etc.

      Hope this clarifies.

  70. Greg,

    law alone will not ensure justice. It only makes justice possible.

    Speaking about swearing by quran, funny is it not that you do not mention PAS that thrives on prostituting Islam or DAP that takes the position of christian missionary challenging Islam.

    As for Nurul Izzah whom you glorify, I am afraid only minority of malays trust her.

    and if UMNO is racist, Kit Siang would have long perish from this world.

  71. Shamsul,

    In principle I agree that religion has no place in politics but as a democrat they have a place in organised politics.

    As for PAS prostituting politics, that’s for PAS to answer, just as UMNO has to answer for prostituting the Malay race and Islam, and more importantly Malaysia.

    When having to choose between PAS and UMNO, within the recent past, PAS is the more moderate party. More importantly, the PAS members of parliament have more integrity than UMNO MPs.

    I think highly of Khalid Samad, Dzulkifly Ahmad, and also Mujahid Rawa for the strength of their arguments, and their consistency.

    As for Nurul Izzah having minority support reflects my point that Malays in general, first and foremost care only for their race and religion, and not Malaysia.

    1. How can you accept PAS’ politics when their brand of governance when they want Malaysia to move backward to the 14th century ? PAS’ policies do not accept any democratic practices, no free elections but a dicatatorship unelected mullahs ruling with Hudud law.

      You speak about Khalid Samad, Dzul and Mujahid but these people do not speak for PAS nor reflect their mainstream policies. There are plenty of people in PAS who advocate extreme policies but just because they don’t speak in English or prostituted by Mkini or MInsider, you ignore them. Nik Aziz himself is a deluded despot.

      As for Nurul Izzah, she speaks of democracy but her actions speaks even louder – she is a failure as a MP and a leader. Any clown can speak with flowery language but when you have an army of good scriptwriters, even you can sound like Obama.

      You position is clear. You only support PAS because they are mere instruments for DAP to gain power.

      You insult the Malays and call them racists just because they don’t support Nurul. The same claim is made by Mahatir on the Chinese who support DAP. But when Dr M says that you call him racist. So by your own definition, you are a racist too.

    2. “Malays in general, first and foremost care only for their race and religion, and not Malaysia”…

      what can I say… if this country get invaded… you think which race will be be first trying to get out of Malaysia and which race will stay and fight for Malaysia?

      in 1945 to 1960 in fighting the communist threat, which race readily offer themselves to die and defend the country..

      Ane, kalau bagi statement, bagi faktalah.. otherwise people view you as a stoopid and arrogant PHD student.

  72. Greg,

    PAS has more integrity than UMNO? remember how Mohd sabu the clown calling Anwar “aljuburi’ and challenging DR Mahathir to sack him?

    What consistency you are talking about. As for Khalid Samad, well let us see whether he still can win in Shah Alam.

    as for PAS, selling religion especially the name “Allah” will bring erosion of influence in the next election.

    Actually what you said is not surprising. My race, Malays of course are very bad to you.

  73. Your race is not the issue Shamsul. The issue is that you make your race the central issue.

    Put it another way, and my conclusion to what I have been trying to put forward in these series of exchanges

    Being a Malay-Muslim is not the issue.

    The issue is when a/the Malay-Muslim subverts the national interest for their sectarian interest and/or associate what is good for the Malay-Muslims as synonymous with what is good for the nation.

    Malaysia is not the land of the Malays. It belong to all Malaysians.

    Those who were here thousands of years ago, those who are here today, and those who will come in the future (from any part of the world). All must be treated equally.

    Citizenship is a right, not a privilege. Respect is earned, not demanded. Leadership is earned, not demanded. We pledge our allegiance to this nation and our sole focus should be the well being of all the citizens of this nation, not to the well being of a particular race.

    Let me reassure you that what is good for the Malay-Muslim may not be good for Malaysia (the evidence is clear) but what is good for Malaysia will always be, in the long run, be good for all Malaysians and the Malays.

    I would like to end on a positive note.

    I do believe that what Malaysia needs is an honest but polite discussion like what we are having here although some of the arguments made by various commentators used language on the rough side – but I’m interested to hear what all of you are saying, (not really worried how your saying it).

    I disagree with your views (except for the one that Sultan’s should be put in their place – which is out of politics) but fully support your right to put them forward in a polite way of course.

    I do realise that we are talking past each other and not to each other. This is indeed the tragedy of Malaysia. The internet is creating echo chambers for like minded people. PR with their echo chambers, and BN with theirs.

    We need to be careful. It is echo chambers such as these that drove Andres Behrik to do the despicable thing he did.

    Maybe we need some mechanisms to foster better dialogues. The internet with its anonymity makes it easier for us to be less civil than we should.

    But I leave that to Helen and the good people that read her blog.

    I also do know that I have at least two outstanding questions that I should answer –

    (1) on the quality of the Malaysian democracy;
    Please be patient. I’ll formulate my reply after I’ve had a paper I’ve been working on peer-reviewed at a coming workshop.

    (2) The reasons that I support PR. Its really the question of what do you do when you have such limited options. You take the marginally better one. BN has had 54 years in power. All indicators show we’re going in the wrong direction (Read NEM1). The rational voter would see if another party/coalition can do better.

    But don’t take my word. Read these series of articles and tell me which coalition you would support.

    Salam hormat

  74. greg,

    citizenships is a privilege, not a right. When accorded, it should be cherished. With it comes aong strings of benefits together with responsibility.

    My point is simple. As long as Chinese politicians insist on separation (in many ways such as separate schools and mandarin is prefereed) then please accept no Malays will trust them.

    So, the better alternatives, please integrate. Stop whining about NEP when they themselves encourages barriers to non Chinese in private sector.

    PRECISELY. Respect is earned. But do remember magnaminity granted.

  75. I’m baffled to see why is this so-called PhD holder kept quoting blogs, MalaysiaKini, DAP’s website, etc as his source of “facts”.

    1. Can you disprove them Shinji?

      May be you can cite something counter to what I have put forward.

      Can you see the difference on how I put an argument forward in comparison to all of you.

      All of you hide behind a facade, not having the courage to come forward an identify yourself.

      All of you make assertions – truths that are manufactured.

      I asked ihatensync to provide a source that says that the Indonesian ambassador was hauled up – none forthcoming.

      I asked shamsul to provide a source that argued the sultans were mangnanimous in granting citizenship – none forthcoming.

      I asked for Kadir Jasin putting forward the argument “First World Infrastructure, third world mentality’ – none forthcoming.

      When I say something I provide source materials. Yes, most of the are blog articles but those articles are sound. I do not use people whose credibility that I question.

      This is the basic method in falsifying an argument.

      1. Hi Greg, you must dumb, because you should realize by now how selfish we Malaysians can be. Semua only with their half past six comments in their escapism. Even you friend.

        You quote from every tom, dick and harry under the sun, but what makes the difference? unless and until you step into the foray and face it. Talk all you want, quote what all you want, but you mean nothing because your truth is massaged just like your detractors. Learn to live with it in your own comfort as the change can only appear if you are ready to forego your own escapism for the truth and reality for another.

      2. Those blog articles are only sound to those who chose to believe so. Heck, I can quote from Helen’s, Najib Razak’s, or any other pro-establishment blogs belongs to people whose ideas are aligned with mine (thus making them credible to my eyes).

        You can’t say that I’m wrong since I’m using your own barometer in determining the source of “facts”; sound blog articles? checked. Credible author? checked.

      3. In response to shinji | Julai 4, 2012 at 2:18 pm

        Let’s use a concrete example to see if we can reach the truth.

        Let’s use the question whether Malaysia has free and fair elections.

        I now provide evidence of people who have researched Malaysia’s electoral system (links below) and found them to be not free and fair:

        Your duty is now to show other studies which demonstrate that Malaysia has indeed a free and fair election. You can use any source you want.

  76. Okay, hope the dust has settled with all the history lessons amongst us the commentors. No just wait, in due time, the bombshell is coming soon how and why the constitution was written for the way it was written.

    Now 55 years henceforth, do you think we should rewrite the constitution so that it fits the current generation of Malaysians after all Thailand had done so many times over as they too practice constitutional monarchy.

    What would you like in your constitution as a member of the society? Like to stick to the old one or something that allows the society to progress on equality term amongst each other based on humanity not man made law that creates a tier level of being a Malaysian.

    We,as Malaysians under the same roof irrespective of our origin don’t have limited option, but we always find the easy way out like our detractors do because everything becomes politics.Only for once if we can think and behave like what we really want for the society irrespective of the origin, then we would not be dwelving what is there constitutionally but only what should be fair and just under the current scenario.

    So how can I propose to rewrite the constitution, and any seconder? This song by Z.Abidin [YouTube] is a classic as it relates how we lose our own humanity just like Hijau.

  77. Greg Lopez, let me tell you this. Having a pHD from an Australia Uni still failed to attract bloggers to you blog arghh ?

    Only inferrior people who has low self esteem or inferiority complex needs academic validation from an Orang Putih University and what not need to have Orang putih name. Trully spineless.

    1. Aaargh!!, Are you talking about yourself as what ever you have stated only reflects why apartheid needs to ensure the position of the majority while stepping over and mangling the minority. Okay can accept it after 55 years , Bumiputra by definition ie only Muslim is supreme, the rest of us are slaves.

      I am planning to start a migration service to Malaysia, we want Indon, Bangla, Pakistani, Afgan, Sudanese of muslim origin and immediately we will grant Bumiputra status. Don’t worry about the Chinese, Indians, and the lain-lain, they have no choice, they will always be 2nd class citizen even if they are born and bred in Malaysia and lived with their Muslim brothers in Malaysia in harmony.

      Our Muslim brothers and sister in Malaysia rather have all that is stated above than those Malaysian Chinese, Indians or lain-lain. So how Bumiputra Forces, don’t talk through your ass, as 90% Malays in Malaysian are not racist but a humanity based community. Take you crap somewhere else.

    2. Your right Bumiputera Forces that I’ve failed to attract bloggers to either my blog, or more importantly to New Mandala.

      I’m trying to analyse why.

      My colleagues as the ANU suggests that its because that Malaysian society is polarised (creates, maintains and expands echo chambers) that its actually difficult to have a constructive dialogue with each other. Hence, a platform that acts in a neutral manner does not attract either group.

      This is replicated at every level (at Parliament, at state legislatures, in the media, in social and cultural spaces, etc).

      This exchange of views here did validate that hypothesis. Both opposing parties have set views, and despite providing data or supporting arguments (e.g. views of other experts), it failed to change the views of the opposing party.

      This is a small sample size, but my experience with other platforms (both on PR & BN) does support the view that those active on the blogosphere, have already made up their minds.

      Raja Petra [YouTube] has the rule of thumb of 30:30:40 (as in 30 percent for BN, 30 percent for PR and 40 percent floating/on the fence). The target then is to capture the 40 percent.

      The norm was that BN would target the 40 percent by being the moderate party. Interestingly, since 2008, PR (both PAS and DAP) have come to the centre and AI has been credited for this strategic shift.

      I’m still certain BN will win, but with an even smaller majority than 2008. That will lead to some very interesting scenarios.

      But nevertheless, all is good. One thing that is for sure is that more Malaysians are actively participating in the political life of the nation – which can only be a good thing.

      Here is an article I wrote which captures the broad megatrends happening that really matters to Malaysia in the long run.

      1. You are quick pass judgment on others while not realising the fact that you are a part of the problem yourself. You evade debates, you claim to be an academic but behave like a typical DAPster in a Kopitiam spewing BS and quote from sources that can hardly be more unacademic. All your “analyses” are nothing but an insidious attempt to paint BN as the devil and the PR as the saviour.

        You claim AI as the cause of the strategic shift. Well, no Malaysia (even DAPsters) think AI is morally or intellectually fit to be a leader. The only reason why people support him is to use his as the political doormat to achieve their own aim of attaining power.

      2. Helen’s blog allows healthy discussion (constructive dialogue as you call it) beyond political correctness, it certainly is not an echo chamber. Just read Helen’s piece ‘Do you Malays hate us Chinese?’ as an example. Nobody reads your stuff Lopez because it’s just plain auta…

      3. Greg Lopez: “Your [sic] right Bumiputera Forces that I’ve failed to attract bloggers to either my blog, or more importantly to New Mandala. I’m trying to analyse why.”

        since we have samples ad nauseum now of what you’re capable of producing here in helen’s blog, perhaps i can save you some time. you are quite unoriginal and boring as muck!

        *shit, i want back the time i wasted reading this guy…”

      4. Greg, I think you are still a novice in your thoughts. You are here not to change people’s mind or their thought process. You are here on your own will without any compulsion. You expect result just because you think you are right!!!, then you are back to square one. You are dealing with a community with their set ways and it takes more than blogging to enhance rationality.

        In my opinion, I think Helen has a matured and well thought commentors here who are tired on both end of the political melodrama still adjusting their balance to come into terms to ensure Malaysia is for Malaysians irrespective of the origin.

        Just shouting out and bickering does not solve the problem as it will only create another set of problems. Don’t try to change anyone as that can only happen if they themselves come to term with it when they are ready to embrace the truth and reality on the ground for any Malaysians.

  78. Shamsul you say “citizenships is a privilege, not a right. When accorded, it should be cherished. With it comes along strings of benefits together with responsibility”. Shamsul I like you but sometimes you ini macam robocop. Tembak, tembak dan tembak!!!

    kan kita ini sebagai manusia ada naluri, apa yang adil brother, tak rasa lagi kah apa yang patut dan wajar untuk sekalian tanpa memikirkan hanya apa yang saya tahu dan hendak? Yang budak Calvin itu lagi terror, “If you are an uneducated Ah Beng from Kepong with zero skills (other than an ability to wash dishes) and not able to converse in English, do you think Australia, the UK or the US will grant him citizenship? Wah!!! Malaysia boleh mentality, This guy is what personifies a typical Malaysian.

    I can speak with authority as I have lived and been living in all these countries. Does this semua tahu Malaysian know how easy it is to get citizenship in these countries when equality is the basis without a tiered basis right to live.No!!!! I don’t mean to hantam but pleaselah take with some common sense if we really seek a malaysian community amongst us irrespective of our origin or our semua tahu concept for only our own individual glory.

    1. BRo, pray do tell ,how? “know how easy it is to get citizenship in these countries”, you mean any tong, dicky and bloody harri can get citizenship?

      1. Most developed western country minus maybe Austria, you can first obtain permanent residence either through immediate family, marriage, employment or investment and thereafter obtain citizenship through naturalization after living a certain years in the country normaly within a range of 3-5 years after obtaining the PR. At least in Canada for all category & US if through marriage it takes only 3 years.

        Yes anybody can get it if you fit into the criteria even if you are have overstayed and termed illegal in those countries I remember in UK, they use to have law that if you have been in UK for 16 yrs and above and able to prove it, they will grant them PR whether you have been legal or illegal. Many Malaysian students try to maintain their student status in UK for 10 years and obtain PR as well.

        Why they do this is because they feel that the person has lost their ties to their home contry and have embraced their own nation as their country. Now imagine the state of the stateless Malaysian who were born in Malaysia and have no ties to their ancestors homeland yet feel as 2nd class citizen in their own country.

  79. Miny,

    Its is an interesting question, it could be the only logical way out from the so call situation we are in. We will need a referendum for that, but let’s not get too far ahead of ourself because as a Melayu Totok I would Iike to repeat my question that I have ask here before or something along that line. Please answer it HONESTLY.

    What if these privileges were in favor of the other races would they be willing to gave it up or change it ???

    1. NadZee, to live life you don’t need privileges, you just need to live. Surely the priveleges was apt at that time so that we can lift our Malay brothers and sisters. I have no qualms about it and have always supported it.

      Today, after 55 years, the semua tahu and semua boleh have benefited irrespective of the origin but not the Malay community if we speak in % terms or the digression that we have seen within the M’sian Indian Community. Why is this the fault of the Non -Malays or the Malay itself if they did not do enough to raise the position for the Malays and the Non- Malays even when they have been in power all these years.

      Friend and fellow Malaysian, the privileges has never bothered me, but the ability for us individually to think what is and just for our common folks irrespective of our origin or privileges but only what is humane when the need arise rather than playing politics and debating on issues that forsake basic needs for Malaysians amongst Malaysians. This is something that we need to come to terms with if we believe amongst us.

      Your question “What if these privileges were in favor of the other races would they be willing to gave it up or change it ???” I am sure you have dealt with enough Non privileged Malaysians, they don’t seek privilege but to be accepted as Malaysian without a condition attached for their livelihood and well being within a community that they are born and bred and hope that they will accepted as Malaysians without any doubt irrespective of their origin.

  80. Miny,

    1st para : Then is there a need to change the Constituition ?
    2 & 3rd para : Are this cause by the Constituition ?
    4th : Skip the lecture and give me a honest answer.

    1. Nadzree, the situation is not what it was 55 years ago, where the Indian contribute to 67% of the GDP and the Chinese 27% for the British and the elite politicians. The privileges in current term should be one that concerns all walk of life as malaysian who have deteriorated for the whims and fancies of the politicians.

      So yes we need to change the constitution. Surely you can acknowledge that the constitution is always used as an excuse to maintain a self indulged status quo by the politicians even after 55 years when it should not be the case if 55 years is one’s life time that you would have known your fellow Malaysians that you have grown up with eating, playing and hanging out with.

      Changes are hard to come by unless and until we acknowledge them rather than playing pied piper for political purpose. I am honest, as I have never been privileged nor expect it but am privileged of being part of a Malaysian society and represent myself as a Malaysian wherever I am. This privilege that I feel is not because of the constitution, the politicians or the nay sayers, but the community ie individual Malaysians irrespective of their origin that I grew up in. I can’t be any more truthful than this.

    2. Pe hal nie mana semua cerdik pandai disini, soalan orang kampong nie mudah je, jawap la….takkan la bersyarah berjela jela soalan semudah nie tak le nak jawap kalau macam tu stop all the ‘crap’ dan terima aja kenyataan yang didepan mata.

      1. NadZee, Either you write in full whether BM or English, don’t lah use stupid sms language in commenting section. What is the rush? Just need to say something for the sake of saying or are you too lazy? I can understand your deficiency and ready to deal with it but frankly I can’t figure out what you are trying to say.

        Maybe that is the current wave, like all the waves that we encounter from time to time but at least learn to decipher your language in proper manner. Maybe I am stupid for not being able to understand but I am sure I can oblige you as a Malaysian to make me understand what exactly are you trying to tell or sell.

      2. Miny,

        Aku cuma orang kampong sekolah sampai tingkatan 5 je untuk pengetahuan kamu ini lah bahasa kami sejak azali lagi….ko ni tak paham ke atau tak mau paham . …Lu pikir la sendiri….

        Lagi satu tu nama aku tu eja la betul betul……ke sengaja…boleh le nanti aku simpan misai macam Hitler.

  81. Malaysian in New york,

    they say call a spade a spade. The truth hurts.

    I was just reminding people of the truth with regards to Constitution. Why The perlembagaan as it is. It has history behind it.

    Just because there were useless Ministers does not mean that the features of Constitution can be challenged.

    It takes two to tango. so goes the saying. I am voicing what Malays feel. Of course, you will not find this in malaysiakini or STAR or nanyang siang Pau.

    Are chinese 2nd class citizens when they have “mandarin is preferred” attitude in private scetors. Not to mention rampant discriminations against darker people in private sectors.

    Are Chinese 2nd class when they have fully funded schools by the very govt they accused as racist? Are Chinese 2nd class when Gerakan won in Grik, a Malay area. Are Chinese second class when DJZ insists that only Mandarin speaking teachers employed in Chinese schools (meaning malays teachers out)

    The truth is that no Malays trust Chinese politicians especially from DAP. They see DAP as trying very hard to create “china” in Malaysia.

    Malays see Chinese are unwilling to compromise and only talking about Chinese ONLY.

    By: Dr Chandra Muzaffar

    Among the content of the article:

    “…. This brings us to that critical question: are elections in Malaysia free and fair?

    If we focussed upon actual voting, there has been no evidence of ballot-box stuffing, ballot-box switching, mass disappearance of voters’ names from electoral rolls, gross discrepancies between ballots cast and registered voters and other such instances of blatant electoral fraud since the first general election in 1959.

    Of course, there are electoral irregularities and errors some of which have been exposed over the years. Such shortcomings exist in all electoral processes. Indeed, there is no electoral process in the world that is totally free of blemish.

    It is partly because there is a degree of integrity in the electoral process that the opposition parties collectively have in various general elections garnered between 35% and 50% of the popular vote.

    In the 2008 General Election for instance, the opposition coalition, the Pakatan Rakyat, captured five states, won 10 out of 11 seats in the national capital, and for the first time in history denied the ruling Barisan Nasional (BN) its two-third majority in the Federal Parliament. It has also won 8 out of the 16 by-elections held since 2008. If there is a viable political opposition in the country today it is due largely to a functioning electoral process.

    There is yet another yardstick that one can employ to determine whether the electoral process in a particular society is fair or not. If the result of an election reflects voter sentiment accurately, there would be no basis for alleging fraud…”

    Full article has been reciprocated in various blogs, just google it.

    Sound article? checked. Credible author? President of the International Movement for a Just World, what more can I say.

    So the real question is, are you open-minded enough to accept his arguments?

    1. Shinji, are you referring to the Chandra Muzaffar – who was a well known civil society activist, a strong critique of UMNO, who joined PKR to end UMNO’s dominance, and who has since left PKR and is now an “independent academic”.

      If you accept Chandra’s views that Malaysia’s electoral system is free and fair, are you also prepared to accept Chandra’s view that UMNO is corrupt, that the Malays have a feudalistic mindset, and UMNO have come to replace the Sultans as the Malays feudal overlords?

      Quoting Kessler:

      ..Alatas’s student, the political scientist and internationally known civil society activist Chandra Muzaffar, wrote a brilliant study of the UMNO which argues that here the governing Malay political party has replaced the sultans and nobility. It epitomises the culture of patronage and self-interested deference; its modern dominance is now sustained by quasi-feudal attitudes…How readily this practice is transmuted into pervasive corruption was another major focus of Alatas’s sociological writings…

      Click to access akademika73%5B11%5D.pdf

    2. In response to 224. shinji | Julai 5, 2012 at 8:59 am

      1. Chandra’s statement that you quoted is similar to Shamsul’s statement about Kelantan being in power or Najib’s argument that because BN has lost 5 states, then the elections is free and fair.

      I’ve dismissed Shamsul’s argument with my response in 229 – thereby also dismissing Chandra’s and Najib arguments or any similar argument that argues because BN has lost in 5 states hence elections are free and fair.

      2. Notice, none of their statements (Shamsul, Chandra, Najib) are research, but merely assertions – justifying electoral processes based on outcomes. The links that I provided for you are research on the process of elections in Malaysia. They are done by scholars that study the actual process.

      3. But more importantly, in relation to your response – Chandra’s best research work was before he became a politician (with PKR and subsequent defection). As a social scientist (before he became a politician), he was widely respected and recognised.

      His brilliant thesis which Clive Kessler referred to (titled Protector?) argues that UMNO replaced the Sultan’s as the protector of the Malays but because Malays are feudalistic, allowed UMNO to become corrupt.

      Or let’s take Rais Yatim thesis: Freedom under Executive Power in Malaysia — A Study of Executive Supremacy”

      Rais writes that:

      “Since merdeka the judiciary had by and large enjoyed its share of independence and none of the previous three Prime Ministers, who had incidentally received their legal training in England, as much as nudged the judiciary let alone ‘assaulted’ it in Parliament as did Dr. Mahathir.” (page 302 – 7.2)

      “The period 1986-1989 could perhaps be summarised to be the finest hour of the Malaysian Judiciary for it was during this short period that it handed down those few judgements that gave freedom a boost. These judgements did not go down well with the Prime Minister. His dissatisfaction with the judiciary came into sharp focus when he was clearly stung by the various decisions of the court.” (p. 313 – 7.2)

      “Since the dismissals of the three Supreme Court judges in 1988, the government has not taken steps to restore confidence in the Malaysian judiciary. Instead, key judicial posts have been filled by judges who participated in the government’s administrative actions against the judges. Recent legislation has eliminated judicial review of important national security legislation. The government has been openly critical of the Malaysian Bar Council, which has sought to defend judicial independence in Malaysia. This criticism, in conjunction with a recent action for contempt of court against the Secretary of the Bar Council, indicates a continued willingness to maintain pressure against the judiciary and those who seek to defend it.”

      You see, I’m not interested in Chandra the person but his research as I am not interested in Rais but in his research. I am pointing out to you their research.

      I’m not saying anything about them or their credibility.

      You have chosen Chandra’s statement to defend your view.

      Assume you still accept Chandra’s statements that Malaysia’s elections is free and fair, logically, should you not also accept his best research work that Malays are feudalistic, that UMNO is the protector of the Malays, and this has allowed UMNO to become corrupt.


      1. So you’re saying if I agree with a person’s opinion on something, I should “logically” agree with his take on every other things?

        So are you also saying if I agree with Lim Kit Siang & Karpal Singh’s vision of Malaysian Malaysia led by Anwar Ibrahim, I “logically” should also agree with his statement uttered not so long ago “Anwar Ibrahim has created enough trouble for the country, Anwar Ibrahim harus bertaubat”.

        Logic, no?

      2. 226. shinji | Julai 5, 2012 at 12:07 pm

        There are four separate issues here so let me explain one at a time.

        (1) There is a difference between research by academicians and political statements by politicians. Your conflating the two and therefore creating a false argument. Your response is without any merit and does not answer my question. Please think carefully before you write.

        (2) I provided links to actual research by academicians. You provided an op-ed by Chandra. None of the arguments that Chandra makes relate to the issues that are raised by the academicians. Chandra’s statements in that op-ed carries as much weight as Shamsul or Najib’s statements.

        (3) However, I asked you, if you agree with Chandra’s statements, would you not also agree with his actual research – which actually is recognised by his academic peers as very good and original research when he wrote it?

        (4) Now to your most recent “jump” from academic research to political statements by politicians.

        Can politicians be trusted. I don’t think they can (on both sides). That’s why you need a vigilant civil society, vigilant media, intelligent electorate and independent institutions as a check on the politicians.

        In regards to your question [ps: Could you provide a source anytime you quote someone else.] However, giving you the benefit of the doubt, if LKS & KS did say that, I would agree with them.

        Everyone knows BN is corrupt, and UMNO is the most corrupt among BN parties except for Taib Mahmud – that guy’s a real champion (I don’t really need to prove this, do I).

        I agree that Anwar being part of that system was also corrupt. The privatisation of state assets beginning in 1985 were shared by Mahathir’s boys, Daim’s boys and Anwar’s boys during the mid 90s with leftovers going to MCA and, MIC (read Peter Searle’s phd thesis for a better understanding The Riddle of Malaysian Capitalism: Rent- seekers or Real Capitalists? Sydney and Honolulu: Allen and Unwin and University of Hawaii Press, 1999.)

        To be an UMNO leader in UMNO Baru (after the split) you had to be corrupt – othewise you could not rise to the top.

        Mahathir’s fight with Razeligh, with Anwar, Muhyddin’s fight with Najib, Khairy’s fight with Mukhriz – these is all about the control of resources.

        Read what Najib did here:

        That is why Mahathir, Badawi, and Najib now cannot reform UMNO – because corruption is systemic & endemic in UMNO

        And Anwar’s excesses while he was with UMNO will always remain with him and wull haunt him forever. There is no escaping from that. And civil society members remind him always, not to make PR into a new BN, or PKR into a new UMNO.

        If he becomes the next Prime Minister and behaves like he did when he was with UMNO, I assure you that Malaysia’s middle class will kick him and his coalition out. 54 years of UMNO/BN corruption is enough.

  83. Greg,

    If election is not free, how Kelantan has been ruled by PAS for more than 2 decades.

    The truth is that all this nonsense allegation is due to people like Anwar, ambiga and Kit siang who can accept reality that BN won the election.

    1. Shamsul,

      Instead of focusing on what Anwar or Kit Siang is saying, would you care to read the links I’ve provided and look at the merits of the arguments.

      Academicians such as Harold Crouch and John Funston have written books (which I’ve cited) that are the standard texts on understanding Malaysia.

      As I mentioned, can we focus on the issues, instead of the individuals. Can we focus on what (the issue) is being said, instead of who and/or how it is being said.

      I think we can have a more productive discussion that way.

      Also, please note that who you vote for is entirely your decision and people vote for the most irrational reason (including how often you smile

      Let’s keep the discussions here as professional as possible.


      1. “As I mentioned, can we focus on the issues, instead of the individuals. Can we focus on what (the issue) is being said, instead of who and/or how it is being said.”


        When you asked me to come up with any source that says Malaysia has a free and fair election, I quoted Dr. Chandra Muzaffar’s opinion.

        Instead of further discussing the content of his article, you shifted the focus to the author by claiming he’s “…a strong critique of UMNO, who joined PKR to end UMNO’s dominance, and who has since left PKR and is now an “independent academic”…”

        and you raised other non-related issues like his views that “UMNO is corrupt, that the Malays have a feudalistic mindset, and UMNO have come to replace the Sultans as the Malays feudal overlords”.

        Seriously? What a joke.

  84. Hi Shamsul,

    What I’m hoping is for a substantive discussion on the issues. Can we focus on the issues. Chandra’s op-ed does not address the substantive issues raised.

    Anyway, here is an answer to your question “If election is not free, how Kelantan has been ruled by PAS for more than 2 decades” (and also Chandra’s assertions.) provided by Lee Howk Aun:

    “Consider the PM’s argument. Basically, he says manipulation equals victory. So, absence of BN victory in five states proves there is no manipulation. All is fair.

    Ah, but if you claim the above as valid, the converse must also be valid.

    Therefore… victory by the BN in eight states proves there is manipulation. All is unfair.”

    Can we all have a more intelligent discussion?

      1. Don’t give up! Its a sign of weakness or laziness or both.

        Let me try to help you understand what Hwok Aun meant.

        The logic goes like this:

        Statement A: BN says that the elections is free and fair because BN lost in 5 states.

        Statement B: PR says that the election is not free and fair because PR lost in 8 states.

        Both statements have the same logic. Both focus on the outcome (results of the elections) to justify a process (elections).

        So, if you say PR’s claims (statement B) is illogical (or invalid), by the same measure, you should also claim the statement A made by the BN as illogical (invalid).

        Faham tak kawan?

    1. Wow,…you call that “logic” ? You are trying to prove that BN cheated and manipulated the electoral process. That BN won 8 states itself is not a proof of cheating and manipulation.

      On the other hand the fact that BN lost 5 (6 if you count KL) and 2/3 majority show that they either did not cheat / cheat enough. No govt which cheats in election will allow itself to lose such important leverage as 2/3 majority and put itself at risk. That’s why tyrants like Saddam used to win 99% of the votes

      All independent opinion polls have supported the results of the GE and BN has always enjoyed more support than Pakatan.

      As an academic I expect you to present data and facts to support you accusations. Instead you cite a dumb answer from a dumb blogger.

      In any debate, the onus for proof is with the accuser and not the defender. If you think BN govt cheated then please present the proof.

      BTW, for all the hhohas over illegal immigrants given citizenship for loyalty for BN and phantom voters, Pakatan and NGOs have come up with zero proof after the voters roll have been displayed by the EC.

  85. Greg,

    The truth is that BN has been winning the elections as it is the only viable coalition comprising all major etnic in this country. Something that until today any opposition is able to emulate.

    Of course, it has its share of weaknesses. But it does deliver. The very election accused as not fair also gives platform to anwar to win since 1982.

    Is he saying he cheated to win in 1982, 1986, 1990, 1995 while in UMNO?

    What is good for goose must also be good to gander. It means if election is not free, it cuts both way. I also can say PAS cheated in order to stay in power for 2 decades in Kelantan.

    All this chaos originates with one man’s ambition to be the Prime minister no matter what. And what better way than to team with a party run by a dynasty( Lim Dynasty)

  86. Interesting you say that all these chaos comes from Anwar.

    Until Sept 1, 1998 – Anwar Ibrahim was the saviour of UMNO, that Mahathir, Najib, Muhyiddin, and all of UMNO and BN wanted to be the next Prime Minister of Malaysia.

    What changed?

  87. Greg lopez,

    The difference between Najib, Muhyiddin and Anwar is that the first two are considered “umat Nabi Muhammad SAW” while Anwar is not.

    Nothing wrong by aspiring the Prime Minister. But do not play dirty politics the way Anwar has been always engaging.

    Anwar “immortalized’ the money politics to the core. Other try but accepted reality if they did not get the post. What about Anwar. Whop cried out loud about Sept 16, 2008?

  88. “The difference between Najib, Muhyiddin and Anwar is that the first two are considered “umat Nabi Muhammad SAW” while Anwar is not.”

    “Anwar “immortalized’ the money politics to the core. Other try but accepted reality if they did not get the post.”

    Very profound Mr. Shamsul, very profound indeed.

  89. Greg lopez,

    Yes. Peculiar it may sound but as Malays perceive anwar as not “umat Nabi Muhammad SAW”, they do not trust him.

    Why they perceive anwar as not ‘umat Nabi Muhammad SAW”. Please ask any Muslim on this.

  90. Can’t quote other people’s opinion / political statement, must only be actual research by academicians? Says the same person who used to quote from tom, dick & harry’s blogs as his source of “facts”.

    You don’t just have to think before you write something, you need to also try harder to remember what you have written previously & be consistent.

    Oh I lurve the internet, so easy to unearth an ‘udumbu’.

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