Posted in Penyokong Pakatan

If Penang had 84% Chinese voters, would DAP be willing …

… would DAP be willing to grant instant citizenship en masse to Malays – which then within the span of two short years – reduced the Chinese voting strength to 57% while at the same time increasing the Malay electoral power in an inverse and corresponding proportion?

Well, that’s what Umno did.

  • In 1955, Malays made up 84.2 percent of registered voters in Malaya.
  • Two years later was Merdeka which allowed close to one million non-Malays to become citizens between the period of 1957 and 1960.
  • Two years after Independence was the 1959 general election. This time, Malays made up only 57.1 percent of the electorate.

Through its own actions, Umno diluted its Malay voter base advantage by a whopping (84.2% -57.1% =) 27.1 percent in one fell swoop.

Now if the shoe was on the other foot,

Would the PAP-DAP — hypothetically as the ruling party — be willing to absorb and enfranchise Malays residing in the Republic of Singapore North en bloc so that as a result, Chinese voting strength suffered a drastic drop from 84 percent to 57 percent within a single election interval?

Copypasted below is the reply I wrote in response to a comment by Jonnymalaya (screenshot bottom of page) which I think is worth reproducing for wider reading.

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(1) Do not forget the genesis of PAS-PIS-PUS. It was the ulama breakaway faction of Umno. They rejected the decision of Tunku’s Umno to work together with MCA which represented the Chinese.

(2) The votes that PAS (PMIP) got in 1959 represented the voice of those rural Malays who were against the loosening of citizenship by the overly ‘liberal’ Umno. Liberal Umno in PAS eyes then was epitomized by “playboy” Tunku who was not a PAS-type posterboy (I don’t want to list the rest of Tunku’s reputed ‘sinful’ habits).

Same worldview as the party’s Amanat Hadi era calling Umno “kafir” for working with the non-Muslim partners in the Alliance-BN.

(3) Yes, PAS won that number of seats in 1959 but those seats were won in Kelantan and T’ganu – two states with an overwhelming Malay majority (as they still are today).

Agree that PAS was successful in 1959. In fact, it captured both the East Coast states (consistent with PAS’s track record of ruling Kelantan).

Votes cast for PAS were for Malays by Malays. You yourself made this remark above — “At that time, you’d be hard pressed to find a Chinese who would vote PAS.” If in 1959, the opposition Malays chose PAS, and the Chinese refused to vote PAS, doesn’t it reflect a racial cleavage?

What you quoted – “hard pressed to find a Chinese who would vote PAS” – actually supports my reading of a longstanding and deep distrust between the two races rather than the Beyond Race myth that you oppo/SABM people are fond of peddling.

The successful run by PAS in the 1959 election derived from sifat perkauman Melayu yang menebal. [Following sentence added here: In 1959, the majority of Chinese in urban areas voted for the opposition. Similar sifat perkauman.]

(4) The 1959 election results did NOT reflect any sustained trend of multi-cultural parties enjoying success in our political landscape.

e.g. You cite the Socialist Front (SF) getting Chinese, Indian (and some Malay) support.

Well, if the SF’s multi-cultural formula was the one that had the most appeal to the Malaysian public, then SF would have prevailed to go on to become the strongest – or at least a strong – party right up to this day, wouldn’t it? Yet the SF is dead.

Instead it is the mono-racial Umno which has withstood the test of time, and the Alliance communal formula which won election after election.

(5) And if the bulk of the Malays/Chinese had ever been adequately multi-racial in outlook, they would have voted Onn Jaafar’s IMP (which by 1959 had dissolved due to lack of support). The rejection of Onn Jaafar – who led Parti Negara in 1959 – was equivalent to the rejection of his pioneering of multi-cultural [multi-racial] parties.

Do please remember that Onn Jaafar was the visionary who in the early 1950s had wanted to open Umno’s doors to all, and change the party name to the United “Malayan” National Party.

He was far, far ahead of his time. He walked his talk and walked out of Umno when his multi-racial [multi-cultural] vision was rejected by Umno members.

(6) Onn Jaafar is arguably our country’s greatest statesman.

He proceeded to establish the MULTI-RACIAL IMP [Independence Party of Malaya], and later Parti Negara after IMP’s dismal flop. Onn Jaafar – this Towering Malayan – was thoroughly rejected by the communal-minded 1950s voters who stuck with the consociationalism format, i.e. the formula of Umno representing Malays, MCA Chinese and MIC Indians.

The very results you cite of PAS’s success in the 1959 election points to the thickness of Malay insularity in the two most Melayu-populated states of Kelantan and T’ganu.

(7) In 1959, it was Umno that was able to forge a working relationship with the other races.

In 1959, the idea of sleeping in the same bed as the Chinese was as alien to PAS as the same idea was in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.

The opposition electoral pact of 2008 is something new in that it didn’t break up when previous loose understandings (made during Kuli’s S46 days) couldn’t withstand the communal backlash. Yup, [or] have you already forgotten that the Chinese backlashed against DAP for working with PAS? (albeit not directly but through S46 as the intermediary) after they were spooked by Islamic State.

(8) My analysis is not “deeply flawed” as you allege. My analysis is what the facts say.

SABM-ers/Firsters, on the other hand, never let facts get in the way of their pet prejudice,

for example in demonizing as “racist devils” Umno the very party that facilitated the granting of citizenship to Chinese (and Indians) and thereby diluting Malay voting power from 84.2 percent in 1955 to 57.1 percent in 1959.

Would an inherently “Nazi racist” (as accused by Firsters) party commit harakiri by drastically reducing the strength of its own voter base by 27 percent?

(9) Turn the tables and say that Penang has 84.2 percent Chinese voters. Would DAP permit the mass influx of Malays to the island, which within two short years, reduced the Chinese electorate to 57.1 percent while allowing a corresponding and inverse spike with regard to Malay voters?

My analysis is not “deeply flawed”. Instead, it is your understanding of history which is very shallow. The race dichotomy is exactly what the election results reveal and not something I made up.

(10) Lain kali baca dan fahami lah sejarah dahulu sebelum anda buat hentam keromo yang kononnya Helen “tries to turn the results into a simplistic Chinese vs. Malay thing (as usual with Helen Ang)”.

More usual with Dapsters lah.

Jonnymalaya’s comment (below) had originally appeared in ‘Election 2013: Race contestation at its sharpest / review 1955-69‘.

Related:

(the above also discusses the role of the third PAS president Dr Burhanuddin Helmy)

Jonnymalaya1959

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88 thoughts on “If Penang had 84% Chinese voters, would DAP be willing …

    1. Helen,

      Agree with you that Onn Jaafar was ahead of his time but the people (Malays and Chinese) were not ready for that. The Malay masses were comfortable with Malay leaders while the Non Malay masses were comfortable with their non Malay leaders. The Malaysians were fortunate that we had leaders that are willing to compromise. Together they set the tone of the nation based on compromise. There is no parallel in other part of the world that the immigrants were granted citizenship and their rights without a drop of blood were spilt. The non Malays need not fight for their citizenship, neither they have to fight for their language, religion, education and their political rights.

      And yet the non Malay masses then tend to believe the agitation of DAP that they were third class citizen in this country even though at that time the economy and more than 70% of the non Malays hold top position in the civil service.. Why Helen?

      Down south, the Singapore were experimenting with their `Singapore Eugenic’ policy then. I hope you can do research on this and provide an insight on this.

  1. In their haste to win Christian votes, DAP has alienated the peace loving Buddhist Chinese. These evangelist Christians in DAP are in-fact courting animosity & bloodshed amongst us Malaysian.

    We use to have PAS treading on religion to garner votes which caused disunity & hate among Muslims. Imagine the hatred between different race & religion (Muslims and Christianity), DAP is trying to sow.

  2. Dear Helen,

    Are you Helen Ang Abdullah now?

    If not, then we have a Pakatoon who bears your name in STL. If you didn’t already

    1. Thanks for the alert.

      My birth certificate says ‘Buddhist’ and I’ve never had any occasion to get it amended.

      It doesn’t shock me anymore the level to which they would descend (yes, I read the other wild and vile accusations too) in carrying out their fitnah.

      Not only are they lying about the ‘Abdullah’ name but the mockery reveals the nature of the fitnah spreaders and how they truly feel about Muslim converts and mamaks behind their Beyond Race, Beyond Religion honeyed rhetoric.

      1. I believe Calvin Sankaran (the fake one) is using the moniker as he’s also freely sowing smut in your name (supposedly) on STL. Ah well, the monkeys will come out & play…

        1. At its most fundamental, the question is “What kind of people are they?!”

          Holier-than-thou Pakatan is selling itself as being better than BN and their Godliness and Righteousness are the very reasons they deserve everyone’s vote.

          But looking at the behaviour they display while at the same time those guys keep labelling other people “low class” …

          1. they learned their craft from The Failed Accountant a.k.a The CM of North Singapore and The Non Practicing Lawyer a.k.a Event Planner the High Priestess of S J.

            who to blame ? with mentors like those 2, …………..

            speaking of low class, could they be, deep in their hearts, that they realized that they themselves are low class, therefore by calling their detractors low class, they can somehow make themselves feel better. after all, these people are known for their deluded sense of grandeur.

  3. Repost:

    1) Again you miss the point and go about tossing red herrings labelling people ‘Dapsters’. You’re no different (even worse) than those people on the other side you claim of always looking out for ‘BN cybertroopers’.

    In your article above, you claim the inclusion of Chinese voters diluted Malay voting power, as if both ethnic groups move en masse as one political bloc. The presence of PAS vs. UMNO disproves this. The Malay vote was actually already in several groups; UMNO, PAS, and SF with a significant share.

    >>Votes cast for PAS were for Malays by Malays. You yourself made this remark above — “At that time, you’d be hard pressed to find a Chinese who would vote PAS.” If in 1959, the opposition Malays chose PAS, and the Chinese refused to vote PAS, doesn’t it reflect a racial cleavage?

    You forget that UMNO also won seats, showing that the ethnic groups don’t just vote for one party. Even the Chinese vote was divided between MCA (rich businessmen & middle class) vs. the left-leaning parties (working & poor class).

    >>(5) And if the bulk of the Malays/Chinese had ever been adequately multi-racial in outlook, they would have voted Onn Jaafar’s IMP

    You fail to include the Socialist groups, which you mention earlier but later forget.

    2) Regarding the Socialist Front, once again Helen fails to see the facts behind its decline:

    “However, with the onset of the Indonesia-Malaysia Confrontation in 1962, opposition to the new federation came to be seen as being pro-Indonesia and anti national. This caused significant rifts among the Opposition parties. Many party leaders were also arrested and incarcerated including Boestamam, Ishak Muhammad and Aziz Ishak under the Internal Security Act (ISA). These factors cost the SF significant losses in the 1964 general election where PR and the NCP failed to gain any seats at all and the LPM lost significant number of seats.[15]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_Rakyat_Malaysia#Persecution

    So it appears that Helen herself is not doing her homework properly.

    1. Outside my office, there is a field, and in that field are ants and grasshoppers.

      Just writing a single sentence about them is a millionfold more interesting than this block of text.

      1. Careful SoG. If PR takeover Putrajaya, they’ll sell the land to build some high end condos or exclusive private medical center. Then you’ve only got the ants in the kitchen garbage receptacle to write about… :-D

        1. Naah, BN will get to it first to turn it into a cow farm where RM250M will vanish into thin air.

          Or a free port zone where losses run into billions

          1. Not before Penang is turned into a cornucopia of high end apartments, condos etc which is affordable to a fraction of Penangites as Lé God looks to stamp his legacy on an island where he wasn’t isn’t born on.

          2. Shit man! Sharizat Cow Condos and PKFZ already in the courts now. Nobody’s sweeping anything under the carpet, at least on the government side.

            You all got that Penang Institute right? Why not ask Zairil Khir Johari @ Christopher Lim to study why even Penangites cannot afford home in Penang. Why is it factories closing in droves and move to Kulim and mainland China? Hope you all don’t sweep shit under carpet ‘coz it sure smells like… shit laa, what else.

  4. Kalau dulu parti Islam menggunakan agama untuk menidakkan keislaman…dilabelkan sebagai ‘kafir’… terhadap pihak yang tidak selari dengan perjuangan parti mereka, kini dalam era milenia, kaedah sama digunakan oleh Dapsters/evagelistas untuk menidakkan keBuddhaan Helen. Justeru dalam konteks berpolitik, tidakkah pendekatan Pas dan Dap adalah sama saja?

  5. Di AS, Presiden dari golongan minoriti cuba menawarkan taraf kewarganegaraan kepada 11 juta pendatang tanpa izin (PATI) dan meskipun ianya mendapat sokongan puak minoriti, namun golongan majoriti kulit putih (GM) berasakan idea berkenaan sebagai kurang molek.

    Ini menunjukkan, meskipun pada asalnya golongan GM lah yang mula membuka laluan kepada PATI untuk menjadi sebahagian dari warga AS kumpulan minoriti ((GMN), namun dasar terbuka GM tidak mungkin akan dibuka seluas-luasnya tanpa had dan mengambil kira ancaman kepada status majoriti golongan GM itu sendiri

    Ini menunjukkan GMN di AS (hitam, hispanic dan banana) amat bersyukur kerana menjadi warganegara AS dan dalam masa sama mereka tidak pulak keberatan untuk menerima PATI untuk diberikan status kewarganegaraan AS dan sekaligus menjadi golongan yang satu taraf kenegaraan dengan mereka.

    Berbeza dengan penjuru sebelah sini, apabila seorang mantan PM yang berasal dari etnik minoriti memberikan taraf kewarganegaraan kepada PATI, golongan majoriti tidak pulak menganggapnya idea kurang molek sebaliknya golongan minoriti pulak yang ‘terlebih sudu dari kuah’ … membebel apabila PATI dapat I/C biru.

    Dalam konteks lokal, nampaknya golongan minoriti bukan saja tidak BERTERIMA KASIH kerana mendapat kerakyatan yang diperoleh menerusi keliberalan dan ketoleransian sikap puak GM Malaya dalam membuat dasar; malah mereka (GMN) seolah-olah iri-hati apabila PATI mendapat taraf kewarganegaraan sama seperti mereka.

    Kalau sikap GMN ini dikaitkan dengan isu ‘Allah”, kalaulah setelah mereka mendapat lesen untuk mengunakannya, mereka tidak juga akan bersyukur sebaliknya akan menyekat ‘warganegara baru’ dari Myanmar dsbnya dari menggunakannya kerana berasakan hanya mereka saja yang ada hak.

    Sikap kacang (GMN) lupa kulit (GM) akan membuatkan GM naik lemak, naik tocang dan lawan tauke. Akirnya tangan GM yang kena gigit. Justeru kepada GM Malaysia, renung-renungkan, nilai-nilaikan dan ambillah iktibar.

      1. Isn’t that why an RCI was set up? To find answers over what happened in Sabah? Or are you postulating on some so called conspiracy theory to overthrow a democratically elected government then?

        Lest you forget, the self proclaimed Allah’s gift to Malaysia orchestrated the fall of Pairin Kitingan led PBS while in the administration. The same messiah who proclaimed that Sept 16th would see PJ fall, which has proven to be elusive still. And the same messiah who acclaimed Bota’s assemblyman’s defection but screamed blue murder when he got a dose of his own medicine.

        A government is not & will not be perfect. Good governance means admitting one’s mistakes & taking steps to correct what was wrong. Good governance means evolving with times & listening to the voice of the people. What good governance isnt is the supposed infallibility of its leaders or grandiose pronouncements of heavenly approval.

        We could go on & on but I’ve got other better things to do such as making more money to pay off the hire purchase loan for my 1 year old Japanese sedan which could cause me to lose tens of thousands if Rafizi’s plan to slash car prices come to fruition

        1. >> We could go on & on but I’ve got other better things to do such as making more money to pay off the hire purchase loan for my 1 year old Japanese sedan which could cause me to lose tens of thousands if Rafizi’s plan to slash car prices come to fruition

          You should be glad. That means lower car prices when you get a new one, or a second model.

          By your thinking, we should not buy tablets, computers, or smartphones because the price will sorely depreciate by the end of the year…

          1. How many will go bankrupt with such a hare brained plan?

            Example:
            – Purchase a Honda CRV today for approx 150k.
            – 90% financing margin – 135k
            – 2% p.a. for 7 years
            – monthly repayment – approx 1832

            Normal vehicle devaluation for insurance purposes would be 10% per annum.
            – After 1 year value drops to 135k

            With Rafizi’s plan, a new CRV will cost somewhere between 50 – 70k (closer to actual value in COO)
            – The drop in value means the bank can no longer consider the asset to be equal or greater value to the loan.
            – The bank can call in the loan, that is to either request full settlement OR seizure of asset
            – Either way, you have to make up the shortfall in value
            – Can’t settle? Take a personal, non secured loan @ 8-10% p.a.
            – Unable to settle? Owing 30k means the lender can sue you for bankruptcy.

            Based on common sense, if you have to buy smartphones, laptops, tablets on credit, you cant afford it dude

          2. So if the prices are slashed gradually, then that would be ok for you, no?

            After all car prices here are overinflated compared with other nations just to prop up Potong & Peroduak. Time to correct this…

          3. It doesn’t address the problem of devaluation in the first place does it? I don’t have a problem with the car prices in the first place as I only buy what I’m comfortable with.

            What about those low income earners whose one car has to last them for god knows how long? Rhetoric is useless when you tell the man on the street that his car halved in value overnight but he still owes the bank double the value.

            Soft landing approach? How does that help to prop up the prices of existing cars? Will Rafizi propose that the government pay the difference in value to the owners? Who’s gonna help second hand car dealers? No answers to these questions as of yet right? So policies are made prior to planning? You don’t need to be an economic analyst to know that such practices are the first steps towards an economic meltdown.

          4. FFC,

            So you advocate keeping an artificially inflated price of cars?

            Remember there are also low income earners looking to buy a car, but are put off by high prices. Lots of people struggle to get the money to pay off expensive monthly repayments, due to high prices itself.

            What’s the longest HP loan one can take? 9 years? By the time a stepped reduction has slashed the price down to the correct level, a good part of the loan would have been paid off. The car’s value would have depreciated anyway. And getting a new car (or even used) would be more affordable.

          5. Where are the details on implementation? Where’s the mechanism to protect consumers against steep depreciation? What are the implications of lower car prices? How do you cope with the increased traffic? How do you rein in more fuel demand? What of the increased emission? Why is the government wannabes talking only about replacing the import duties & sales taxes with open AP tenders? Why wasn’t any steps announced on protecting the rights of the owners? How do you protect the market from inflation with a drop of prices when some few millions of vehicles see a steep drop of value overnight? How? Or do we just have to listen, listen, listen to vague policies which are just without substance?

            While we are at it, can Anwar explain how he can lower fuel prices further? Correct me if I’m wrong but in 2011 I recalled him saying circa 1.20-1.30. How do we do that without depleting Petronas’ revenue further?

            And how do we give 20% royalty to the states without causing any long term damage to the country’s development & Petronas’ ability to prospect for the future? Someone has to give up the extra 15%. Who is it gonna be?

            What about free education? What do we do with PTPTN defaulters? Wipe the slate clean? What about those who’ve paid up? Do we refund them with interests? Do we have the infrastructure & human resources to cope with 200-300k of new undergraduates annually? Can our tertiary institutions accommodate 2-3million students at any one time? With this increase in terms of lecturer to students ratio, will we be able to ensue quality teaching & learning? What about books, learning paraphernalia etc? Do we pay for frogs or mice or hamsters for dissection, for example? Lets not forget accommodations, food, transportation & other logistics for the student’ welfare too. Where do we stop? Where do we draw the line?

            Let’s talk about something I can say I’m knowledgeable in, shall we? Water membrane filtering. How does the Selangor government justify the use of a technology that is relatively new? How does it justify the costs of producing potable water by such methods? FYI, the technology is primarily used where water supply requirements are low (such as isolated villages) or disaster zones. The costs of treating water with such technology is prohibitive thus eliminating its usage in large scale treatment. So, why bank on a technology that is new, expensive, unproven, resource intensive rather than a conventional, proven system of water treatment?

            These are just the tip of the iceberg. So many promises, so little info. Enlighten the electorate on the nitty gritty details & maybe, just maybe, they’d get our votes. Until then, these are just promises which to quote Khalid Ibrahim “are not agreements” to fish for votes. Mere peccadiloes? Or just outright lies?

          6. Why are people blind to the fact that the so called “inflated” prices of cars is now an important source of income for the country?

            What do you think subsidizes your fuel? Your food? The education of you and your children?

            Abolish them, and kiss your subsidies goodbye.

            Or will you get Petronas to subsidize even more things? Hmm?

          7. Like I said already, a stepped reduction in car prices. Automobiles are depreciative assets already.

            Owners will actually benefit as purchasing a new model will be easier with less “gap” between the used price & new price. Future owners will certainly benefit. For hp loans taken after each reduction, the debt burden will be less on the owner.

            Anyway, when Honda comes up with a new CRV model, your used price can drop, which is also based on consumer demand for the car. Are you gonna blame Honda if that happens?

            Now if we have a good public transit system, I wouldn’t mind the high price so much. That’s not the case here. I was in Ipoh weeks ago, and for a sprawling city, public transit is nearly non existent. Same case with many cities & towns in Malaysia.

          8. And disregard the ripples caused by the butterfly effect? Stepped or immediate reductions will still have the same effect on current owners of vehicles. You mentioned the gap in prices make it easier for a purchaser to get a new car. But what of the existing loan? Don’t forget that banks are in it for profit. Even cars siezed & auctioned by banks don’t have a reserve price. The loan defaulted simply makes up the shortfall.

            How do we address all that? I’m not asking too much by wanting details. I’ve gone on lots of websites to find more clarification on this matter. I’ve yet to find any in depth info on it. All Rafizi has been harping is to make up the shortfall of government revenues by selling APs on open tender. It still doesn’t address the concerns of the masses does it? Heck, stepped reduction don’t even have a time frame even.

            All in all, as a voter I want my vote to go to the person/party that serves the people best. And I want to make an informed decision. I am concerned about all this as I manage some 120 staff who earns between 2200 – 3000 before OT whose livelihoods could be affected by whatever effects such policies will bring. They earn a tidy sum yes, but still not comfortable enough to be independent financially. From experience I find that if an employee has problems, be it financial or relationship etc, they are less effective at what they do.

            So please, if you wanna talk about periodic reductions, give us some illustrations & examples. Enlighten us. Give us charts or graphs or whatever. One or two liners don’t help us much. Lets not oppose each other for the sake of it. I’ve voted in 2 GEs & 3 state elections (Kuchingite) & I’ve cast my votes for both sides of the political divide before. In fact I voted against BN in 08 & 11. If we can’t have a discussion without innuendos & potshots but instead filled with rhetorical arguments then we truly fear the future of this country.

          9. Dear Jonny,

            Reread what SoG and FFC have said. You simply don’t understand some basic facts and possible consequences of lowering the price of cars. And that’s just one example.

            I will skip Singapore because it is obvious what their problems and strengths/advantages are.

            Lowering the price of cars is not just about making sure consumers get a cheaper new car (one-off savings). It will have quite a bit of an impact on both the resale and loan (if any) value of current vehicles. There are compensative mechanisms that can be put in place, but that would mean that all current car owners need to slowly offset such differences over time (i.e. reduced insurance premiums, road tax etc.). If you do your maths, the government will definitely collect less tax revenue, and trust me, no bank will absorb such losses, i.e. tolong jangan harap lintah darat akan bagi potongan diskaun terhadap pinjaman anda. If you understand the loan terms when one takes to buy a car, you should understand the specifics of how the repayment and interests are calculated.

            Secondly, in overseas countries, while the price of cars are cheaper, the price of petrol is pretty prohibitive. That’s the real reason why orang puteh pun suka pengangkutan awam. Between a one-off cheaper car by lets say RM10,000, and a litre of R95 petrol at RM2.63 (itu pun tax-free price, Thailand ~RM4+, Singapore RM5+), do your maths based on your mileage and come back to me. Assuming the life span of a sedan car is 10 years and average mileage of a car per year is 15,000 miles or 25,000 km with fuel consumption of 8 litres / 100 km, the difference of RM1.90 and RM2.63 over 10 years is RM52,600 – RM38,000 = RM14,600. I don’t know about you, but my new sedan is already hitting 20,000 km in its first six months so I am definitely getting my monies worth.

            Public transportation IS important, but it is found usually in high density urban areas. With our weather and size, park and ride is currently the best fit, although if our feeder system works better, people can forgo driving altogether. Again, the cost factor is the reason here. Do you know how much it costs to take the bus here and a bus in a well operated system like Singapore, Osaka and Seoul?

            http://www.priceoftravel.com/595/public-transportation-prices-in-80-worldwide-cities/
            http://www.priceoftravel.com/555/world-taxi-prices-what-a-3-kilometer-ride-costs-in-72-big-cities/

            Malaysians have some things so good that they forgot what it takes to keep providing such goods and services at ridiculously low prices. Our very decent public health care for examples is practically free in comparison to other countries, hence its congestion. It actually kept private practise less lucrative and more affordable as physician consultation rates are fixed under MMA!

            So, you tell me how will lowering the price of cars will help people who would not be able to afford one in the first place? Cheaper cars will allow some to get one of their own, but EXPLAIN how this is an incentive to provide better public transport? Our cheap price of petrol already encouraged many to drive rather than walk or take the bus. How is, cheaper cars that is, going to provide the right encouragement to USE public transport?

            You, my dear friend, is obviously not thinking some arguments through. That’s why politicians love dumb voters. It is like a proverb in Chinese, “Three in the Morning, Four in the Afternoon” 朝三暮四. Read it up.

          10. IHnS,

            >>Lowering the price of cars is not just about making sure consumers get a cheaper new car (one-off savings). It will have quite a bit of an impact on both the resale and loan (if any) value of current vehicles.

            In another of my post, I’ve mentioned how this will also reduce the gap between a used and new vehicle. Hence, loan repayments would be easier.

            >> Secondly, in overseas countries, while the price of cars are cheaper, the price of petrol is pretty prohibitive. That’s the real reason why orang puteh pun suka pengangkutan awam

            >> Do you know how much it costs to take the bus here and a bus in a well operated system like Singapore, Osaka and Seoul?

            Ahem, what is the purchasing power in overseas countries vs our purchasing power here? What is their salary power vs ours? You can’t convert into ringgit & compare like that… that itself is a fallacy.

            The orang puteh suka pengangkutan awam because it works & is well coordinated. Information is present, system is punctual, and they can easily go from suburb to city center.

            >> Malaysians have some things so good that they forgot what it takes to keep providing such goods and services at ridiculously low prices. Our very decent public health care for examples is practically free in comparison to other countries, hence its congestion. It actually kept private practise less lucrative and more affordable as physician consultation rates are fixed under MMA!

            Decent public health care? I have friends working in the public health service and they all complain about the system. And private health providers are sprouting up all over the country… you don’t see that?

            >> So, you tell me how will lowering the price of cars will help people who would not be able to afford one in the first place? Cheaper cars will allow some to get one of their own, but EXPLAIN how this is an incentive to provide better public transport? Our cheap price of petrol already encouraged many to drive rather than walk or take the bus. How is, cheaper cars that is, going to provide the right encouragement to USE public transport?

            Why do many prefer to drive instead of taking public transport, having to foot out overinflated car loan repayments each month? Gee, is it perhaps our public transport is crap to begin with? New suburbs & townships with zero bus service, let alone a commuter rail. Komuter has only 2 lines serving the Klang Valley with no feeder routes in suburbs. Heck, even JB, Ipoh, Penang doesn’t have commuter rail, LRT, or BRT. No info posted about which bus stops here or goes where. Late bus, or bus doesn’t arrive, or breaks down frequently. Until recently, Komuter was so poor that I had on several occasions waited over an hour in KL Sentral before I can finally board (the last 2 trains were bursting full).

            When was the last time you took the bus or train? Mine was 2 days ago.

          11. You want to talk about purchasing power parity (PPP)? We can do that. Just peruse the USD value in the two sites I’ve provided, apply the PPP weightage and see what I am saying.

            You talk about the pay & salary in other countries etc. Dude, there they don’t pay their bus driver peanuts. You know what they say, that’s why Singapore’s ministers aren’t monkeys.

            “The orang puteh suka pengangkutan awam because it works & is well coordinated. Information is present, system is punctual, and they can easily go from suburb to city center.”
            – Jonny.

            Sure, but do you know that the real cost of owning a vehicle overseas? Are you aware that public transport in developed states are often actually more “expensive” than driving your own car?

            Do you know the price of gasoline in UK? The best way to compare is the cost differences in distance travelled by say by bus or other public transport and by private vehicle in Malaysia. Then do the same for another country, and compare the differences.

            I will pick an example. I took the LRT from Tasik Selatan to LRT Bandaraya (~RM1.70 one-way, can’t remember, erring on the high side) yesterday. Parking at TBS was flat RM3. Total cost: RM6.40 pergi balik with a travel time of about 30 minutes each way. Of course some walking and sweating was involved but lets not factor that in since I can afford to lose a few pounds.

            Driving from BTS to Bandaraya (let’s say Sogo), will cost me, in mileage terms (using the same 8 litre / 100 km consumption average), RM5.32 in fuel costs (35 km @ RM1.9 per litre). Parking is quite variable, but no way it will be lower than RM5 in the city. Plus the high probability of traffic congestion, thus eating into the cost, but lets ignore that now. So, total cost by car will be over RM15.32 at least.

            Let’s be generous, assume that IN MALAYSIA, the difference in cost (for convenience) between a lrt ride and driving my own car is 50%, with advantage to pick the public transport.

            You can replicate the same conditions (similar distance to the city centre) elsewhere in more developed states. You will find that in general, there is a reversed difference in travel cost between taking the tube and driving in say, London. [Of course, the fact that London tube drivers earn GBP51,000 a year is illuminating.]

            From North Ealing to Leicester Square (driving distance is slightly under 30 km), the tube fare is approximately GBP 4.50 one-way (Picaddily line). Parking in North Ealing would be cheap at GBP 3. Thus total cost by the tube will set you back by around GBP 12 pergi balik.

            Petrol price per litre in UK is about GBP 1.35 per litre (to keep calculations simple). Using the same fuel efficiency, covering the said distance will cost UK drivers only about GBP 3.25 one way. Public parking around Leicester Square is about GBP 2.5 per hour (GBP 16 all day). So total cost by car will be around GBP 9 at least.

            So, the difference in monetary cost between a tube ride and driving a car to London is only 10%, with advantage to pick self-drive! Even if we ignore the conversion differences and look at PPP (you can use a Big Mac Index if you like), it is obvious that public transport is not cheap.

            So, the question we should be asking ourselves is, ARE WE WILLING TO PAY MORE FOR BETTER PUBLIC TRANSPORT? Selling cheaper cars do not benefit low income earners at all, as the price difference is still beyond the reach of many. Why do you think most of them use motorcycles?

            Car ownership is high in developed countries, but people will always opt for reliable public transport where possible. We have to be honest to ourselves though. If you can afford a car and in the possession of one, public transport is a rare ocassion. I took the lrt once in a blue moon in relation to work, and the primary reason was actually to avoid the stress of driving during rush hour. In a high density urban area, congestion and convenience is what propels good public transport. For interstate travel, we still need to use private vehicles. For economic parity reasons, public transport charges must not stray too far from driving costs.

            I will address your other replies in a separate comment.

          12. Then Helen should charge you all for services rendered to alleviate the suffering of insomniacs

          13. “Decent public health care? I have friends working in the public health service and they all complain about the system. And private health providers are sprouting up all over the country… you don’t see that?”
            – Jonny

            What is their complain? Understaffed? Overburdened? I just passed by a public hospital on my way to work, guess what, the car park was so full that people are parking on the road and on any empty field. Yet, PRIVATE out-of-pocket expenditure on health has risen to be on the same levels as PUBLIC expenditure on health since 2004. The damn joke is that for about the same number of doctors and nurses, public hospitals and clinics are managing more patients and cases – at a lower cost. The data actually shows that growing affluence has enabled our citizens to seek out private health care facilities and services. You want to knock down the quality of our public health care, please take note who are the panel of doctors in most local private hospitals – most of them came from government medical institutions. The fact that we are losing doctors and nurses to lucrative private practise should tell you something.

            You clearly do not understand our national health care system and how it compares to other countries’ internationally. You won’t even take WHO’s word for it, I suppose. Some people can only respond to appeal by authority.

            “Malaysia has achieved a comparatively good standard of health with a relatively low total health expenditure of 4.3% of GDP (2008).”
            – p. 19

            Click to access ccs_mys_en.pdf

            I totally sympathize with your bad experience with public transport. My experience with LRT was not unpleasant (peak hour rush), but I park and ride. I would never risk riding a bus in Malaysia if I could help it. Although trains are way slower, I used to take overnight coach to Singapore. We have choices, and we must provide the right incentives for people to use public transport and compel the authorities and companies to act and clean up their act. Having cheaper cars act against that interest, although I personally would benefit from it too. But from an environmental point of view, that’s just not the right incentive. If your complaint about inflated car prices is profit-taking by AP cronies, may I suggest that the correct response to that complaint is to remove APs, regulate car loan interest rates and improve the cost-profit margins of local automobile makers. The tax levied has always gone to the government.

          14. InHS,

            Regarding your comparison between London vs. KL, there are several flaws. Firstly, congestion charges & tolls are not included.

            Secondly, your statement that public transport is more expensive in London bases your calculations on buying single tickets at the machine, instead of using the Oyster Cards which are only GBP3.20 peak hour one way, as opposed to GBP4.50. Going back would be 2.70 pounds.

            http://www.londontoolkit.com/briefing/oystercard.htm

            “The vast majority of Londoners use an Oyster Card routinely to pay for all their public transport needs. For visitors its not so clear cut, there is sometimes a case for visitors to use the alternative Travelcard scheme.”

            “Unless you are going to make one single journey on public transport in London then you should really be looking to either purchase an Oyster or Travelcard and not pay for single tickets.”

            So for a local Londoner who parks and ride in N.Ealing & travels to Leicester, his/her day cost will be (3.20 + 2.70 + 3.00) = GP8.90, slightly cheaper than driving if you factor in the congestion charge.

            And meanwhile in Klang Valley, not everyone has the convenience of living near a Komuter or LRT so they can park+ride. Last I checked, the parking lot next to the Klang KTM Komuter was RM6 for the whole day, I dunno if that’s increased. While UK’s transport has a large far reaching network.

            Also point out that petrol is GBP1.35/l vs. RM1.90/l in Malaysia. While converting, UK will be more expensive but a person working in UK will spend less on petrol compared to Malaysia.

          15. “Regarding your comparison between London vs. KL, there are several flaws. Firstly, congestion charges & tolls are not included.”
            – Jonny

            I did say I assumed no congestion charges for both London AND KL.

            I also did not factor in monthly passes for LRT. Your point being? The fact is taking the public transport is almost 50% cheaper than driving in KL whereas in London, the costs are almost equal between the two, ASSUMING SIMILAR TRAFFIC CONDITIONS.

            I’ve already pointed out to you that the raison d’tre of the comparative exercise is to show the relative attractiveness of the public transport option. Even though public transport is relatively cheaper than driving in Malaysia, people still don’t see it as a viable alternative for the same reasons you mentioned. It is a matter of network efficiency and convenience. However, cost of living does not negate the fact the UK has one of the most expensive petrol price even after factoring in the purchasing power parity.

            http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5862/oil/petrol-price-per-gallon-around-the-world/
            http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EP.PMP.SGAS.CD
            http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/

            I think park and ride is the most sensible thing for advocators of public transport in Malaysia. Despite all the hue and cry about prices of cars (which is really only the prices of IMPORTED cars), vehicle ownership is pretty high here. Due to low density of townships, it is simply not possible to expect a viable/sustainable bus network with the current fare pricing. Short feeder services or circulatory routes should be the better option, rather than door-to-door stops.

            1. Never think and talk for yourself only, have you ever thought of giving way to pedestrian first….in malaysia the drivers thinks that they are the king/queen when on the roads.

          16. IHnS,

            Got it on your comparison. In London, the cost of public transport is slightly cheaper than driving. The ratio is nearly 1 to 1, yet more people choose to use public transport than drive, compared to KL.

            In KL, this ratio is even more favorable for public transport. Its also even more a burden to own & operate a car in Malaysia, than the UK. Yet, we have more people choosing private transportation over the rail/bus network.

            And, this assumes you’re within reasonable driving distance of a park & ride, which is not the case for a majority of Klang Valley residents. Due to poor integration between transit systems, poor or nonexistent feeder bus service, and connectivity between satelite towns, lots of people with families have little choice but to opt for cars.

            Yes, a park & ride system is good for outlying suburbs, like Sungai Buloh, Setia Alam, Bandar Botanic, etc. Thing is, when these new townships were being built, no thought was given into construction of new rail lines, or circulator bus/feeder systems. Just going from one suburb to the other is a pain without a motor vehicle. Heck, even cycling or walking in the suburb is difficult due to lack of kaki lima, cycle lanes, or pedestrian crossings.

            Now, thats just the Klang Valley. Try taking the bus (good luck) in Ipoh or JB and try walking around, and you’ll know it.

          17. I grew up in JB and in those days as a teen, trust me, bus is all I’ve got. I don’t know about Ipoh, but I’ve not much complaints on Maju. I was particularly thrilled back then when they introduced air-conditioned coaches. If I remember correctly, at that time KL was still stuck with really fugly bas minis.

            I think we have to be realistic in this pursuit of a seamless integrated system. What we are trying to achieve in KL with LRT, monorail, komuter and the up and coming MRT is trying to come up with a better public transport. Originally, I disliked the idea of separate line operators, thinking it would be neater to have a monolith. Then I realized that it would be good competition, I mean, KTM runs a poor service, compared to the KLIA express.

            I believe cheaper cars do not really serve our broader interests, Proton’s case notwithstanding. My primarily opposition has always been putting more cars on the street. It is hard to argue that people can’t AFFORD cars, we do have cheap local versions. If the question here is safety, features and bang per buck, I actually have very positive experience with Perodua. It is hard for me to claim that cars are expensive unless I made a purchase beyond my means – afterall, you make your decisions based on the options available against your needs.

            The promise and allure of cheaper cars come with a huge price (and cost) to our roads, our environment and our living space. I do believe we should be taxed for the luxury and convenience of cars. It is easy to blame the lousy public transport, but millions use them everyday to get around. As I’ve stated earlier, humans act on motivations and incentives. Making cars cheaper is just not the right incentive, imho. I am already puzzled by the sale and necessity of expensive smart phones, so don’t get me started on all the rampant waste and culture of consumption today.

          18. >> I think we have to be realistic in this pursuit of a seamless integrated system. What we are trying to achieve in KL with LRT, monorail, komuter and the up and coming MRT is trying to come up with a better public transport. Originally, I disliked the idea of separate line operators, thinking it would be neater to have a monolith. Then I realized that it would be good competition, I mean, KTM runs a poor service, compared to the KLIA express.

            Competition doesn’t work that way. Each rail transit line operates from and to different areas, meeting at Sentral. If you’re in Klang, your only operator is KTM Komuter. If you’re in Kelana Jaya, you only have the LRT to take. With different operators owned by different corporations, we have a system that’s not properly integrated. Station interchanges are inconvenient, especially with the monorail… which still does not directly stop at KL Sentral. When they developed that plot of land between the Brickfields & Sentral, they didn’t extend the monorail line to be closer to Sentral… so you still have to walk around it to connect.

            A lot of people put down payments & take hefty loans for cars because they have little choice. As I said, not everyone in the Klang Valley has the option to park & ride. And in Ipoh, JB, and other sprawling cities in Malaysia, there is NO park & ride. Heck, there is no proper bus service available.

        2. BTW, I’m flipping through the classified section of the Star now. Shall we see what’s the price say for a 9 year old Toyota Vios. Somewhere between 42 – 48k. Shall we take the mean of 45k then?

          Car value after 9 years – 45000
          Purchase price – 75000
          Loan – 65000 for 9 years @ 2.7% per annum (rate in 2004)
          Monthly repayment – 863.20
          Total paid for HP loan – 93225
          Total paid for car (excluding running costs) – 103225

          After 13th GE, import duties & sales tax for cars are abolished. Thus an equivalent model would cost approx 26 – 30k depending on specifications.

          Thus begs the question, what is the value of 2004 Toyota Vios post GE13? Half the price of a new unit? Say 15k as a mean value? So after paying 103k for ownership cost, you see the value reduced to a third overnight. Are you gonna be pleased? I sure as hell won’t.

          Gradual decrease of taxes? Replace the date with 2012 & work on from there. You will still see the value dropping like a rock in a pond. What of existing vehicles? Scrap them? If we take Rafizi’s words at face value they won’t be worth anything post GE13.

          Unless you can enlighten us on a mechanism to address the issue of value depreciation & sustainability of the whole enterprise, all the arguments are just rhetorical in nature. Adds nothing more to what we already know, which at the current moment – zilch or somewhere pretty close to that.

          1. Bro, you missed out that I mentioned stepped reduction. That means it won’t be a sudden slash to half price.

            Here’s a comparison based on the numbers you gave for a brand new & used Vios (2004 model). Thanks firsthand for digging up the numbers:

            With tax:
            New: RM 103,225
            Used: RM 45,000
            Difference: 103,225 – 45k = RM 58,225

            With repeal of tax:
            New: RM 30,000
            Used: RM 15,000

            Difference: RM 15,000

            So if the present owner of the 8-year Vios wants a new model, he/she only pays RM15,000 difference after selling off his old one. As opposed to RM58,000 with tax & duties still in place. Less debt burden on the owner’s household.

            Remember, a car is a negative asset. Your RM150,000 CRV is gonna be worth less than 100k after 4-5 years, even when you’re still paying off a 150k loan. If Honda comes with a new model with better engine, transmission technologies & comfort package, the rate of depreciation will even be worse. And if consumer demand for SUVs drop… well, you know…

            I’m an owner of a 6 year old car, and I certainly look forward to cheaper car prices. :)

            More importantly, I look to good public transport. Even compared to Los Angeles…. KL, Ipoh, Penang, Johor Baharu, is very automobile dependent.

          2. Wow Jonny, I really hate to say this, but you totally missed Fakin’s point.

            Your six year old car, my dear Jonny, lets say cost you RM100,000 (plus loan interest). Lets say PR now takes away all the taxes and a brand new car costs 50,000 (plus loan interest, be fair and honest in your comparison-lah). What do you think your six year old car’s second hand is then worth?

            Stepped reduction? So reduce tax by say 5% a year? How’s that going to change the fact that the second hand car value is going to take a hit? More government bail-out? Itu second-hand car sales SUDAH beli itu kereta harga lama, jual balik kat kerajaan PR ke? Screw it, kita tahulah apa itu depreciating value and all that, what I am saying is that every car owner will take a hit on its current car’s trade in value. Sure, new cars are cheaper and everyone will be happy – except when they all drive during rush hours that is.

            Doh!

          3. >> Your six year old car, my dear Jonny, lets say cost you RM100,000 (plus loan interest). Lets say PR now takes away all the taxes and a brand new car costs 50,000 (plus loan interest, be fair and honest in your comparison-lah). What do you think your six year old car’s second hand is then worth?

            Of course the 6 yr old car’s worth will take a hit, but changing to a new model will be cheaper, due to the lower price gap which I have pointed out. I think you both totally missed this point.

            My 6 year car is worth 45k now. If I wanna get a new model, I’ll have to make the difference of 55k.

            But with the price at 50k, my used car will be, lets say 20k. Sure, it has dropped, but I only need to pay 30k instead of 55k to settle when I get a new model.

            Think about it man.

          4. Hahahaha….

            Jonny, you have a very interesting way of defining “savings”. Let me explain this with another example so that you can understand how absurd this gets.

            In a recession, prices of homes go down. People should be happy, right? According to your logic, they can sell the house at a loss (doesn’t matter), and then get a new house by just topping up “a bit”. Eh, what’s the loan term again? 5-years? 10-years? 20-years?

            Lets not even consider for a minute how our used car salesperson would deal with their pre-depreciation stock. Let’s just assume you get a trade-in as you mentioned. That means you paid RM100,000 for a car which became RM20,000 in six years. This means that you PAID RM80,000 for a car that you used for six years, and you want to pay another RM30,000 for a new car because you don’t mind the losses.

            So here’s the real kicker. Lu sudah habis bayar car loan you in 6 years ke? If you have paid for it, all good and great, even better kalau cash and carry terus, kan? But lets say la you still have outstanding amount unsettled. Itu duit mana datang?

            Ini baru kereta sedan biasa, imagine the big and expensive cars where the tax levied is also the highest. Imagine the magnitude of their hit.

          5. And the fact that the car value is neither equal nor greater to the outstanding loan? How do we address that? The system works if you’ve paid off a substantial amount of your loan.

            I’ve noted your point on gradual reduction. Here’s the thing. You reduce gradually but banks will seize on the fact that the new car is still cheaper than the car you already have in their books. The impact is damaging especially to the lower income earners.

            One thing about car prices which I’ve observed overseas. You get cars real cheap in the US or UK. Comparing dollar/pounds to ringgit, I can get my car for some STG20k as opposed to RM170k. But my insurance premium in KL before NCD is approx 4k & road tax of 200+. That’s less than 5% of the cost of the car. In UK, I’ll pay some STG3k for insurance & vehicular registration which translates to approx 15% of the price annually. While the cost of owning goes down, will the cost to run it go up? Singaporeans gets it even worse here. A cert of entitlement changes hand for around SGD60k. The same model costs SGD70k there.

            Btw, you mentioned about the price correlation between vehicle & fuel. If we get cheaper car, so should increase fuel price to discourage users from choking our roads right? That puts Rafizi at odds with his boss no?

            And talking about public transport in KL, I’ve been using them weekly since coming back to KL in 07. Bus? Yesterday.

            At the end of it all, as a voter & Malaysian I’m tired of so call grandiose plans that will make me prosper IF I vote a particular party in. What worries me is that there are no concrete plans, only promises. As the MB of a state famously said, “not an agreement” which can be a precedent. And I especially hate those without the knowledge or expertise in a particular field acting like they’ve written extensive thesis & papers on the subject when all they have is at best second rate advice from someone who don’t know much about the subject in the first place

          6. IHnS,

            Honestly, while I don’t quite like this new proposed scheme looks, I don’t really give a crap about the owners of the luxury cars getting a hit. If they can afford a car that is the equivalent of 10, maybe more car in the first place, serves them right. I’m more concerned about the middle & lower income losses.

            Imagine a 5 year old Persona worth next to nothing but still has 20-30k loan outstanding when a new Korean or Japanese sedan would cost the same as the outstanding amount. That, I cannot accept.

            BTW, car dealers don’t really like you buying your car cash you know? They lose out on loan commission. My other half tried buying her MyVi cash but gave up after the run around they gave her & finally settled for a loan instead. The car was registered & delivered in less than 2 days.

          7. IHnS,

            >> In a recession, prices of homes go down. People should be happy, right? According to your logic, they can sell the house at a loss (doesn’t matter), and then get a new house by just topping up “a bit”. Eh, what’s the loan term again? 5-years? 10-years? 20-years?

            Wrong comparison. Prices of homes & property increase or decrease based upon market demand.

            Whereas for vehicles, the price of a purchased car WILL decrease year by year, as a car is a depreciative asset. FFC’s Honda CRV will be worth less than 100,000 in 4-5 years while he still has 2 years left on his hp loan of RM150,000, assuming he doesn’t refinance or pay it off early…

            >> Lets not even consider for a minute how our used car salesperson would deal with their pre-depreciation stock. Let’s just assume you get a trade-in as you mentioned. That means you paid RM100,000 for a car which became RM20,000 in six years. This means that you PAID RM80,000 for a car that you used for six years, and you want to pay another RM30,000 for a new car because you don’t mind the losses.

            Dude, now lets say with the duties & taxes in place, I trade in the 6 year car (RM 45,000) for that new model which costs RM100,000. We take the same conditions that the loan has been paid off, and that I wanna get a new car after 6 years.

            My depreciation would be RM55k to use the car for 6 years. On top of that, when I trade in, I have to take a loan & downpayment of RM55k to pay the balance of that new model.

            While this both adds to RM110,000, remember… with the price slashed, I only have a debt burden of (RM50,000 – RM20,000 = RM30,000, vs. RM55,000.

            Effectively, my total costs for the car, and the new model I buy 6 years later are…

            With taxes & duties:
            RM100,000 + RM100,000 = RM200k

            With taxes & duties removed after I buy first car;
            RM100,000 + RM50,000 = RM150k

            Subsequent models that I purchase down the years, or if I get a second car… will be a lesser debt burden upon my household overall, than if the status quo remains. For first time car buyers, obviously they’ll benefit.

            If you wanna see the sentiment of car owners/buyers…

            http://paultan.org/2012/10/04/pm-import-car-excise-duty-reduction-will-collapse-used-car-market-revenue-depreciation-for-govt/#comments

            Hopefully no one will accuse paultan & his readers of being Dapsters, but knowing how people in this blog react…

          8. Dear Jonny,

            You clearly believe that a reduction in the price of new cars is a positive development – at least to you as a car owner. Since the depreciating value lost is not a concern to you, I suppose it is pointless to pursue that argument. I concur wholeheartedly that lowering car prices would mean less household debt burden, but I won’t be celebrating in terms of car interest rates because I know the banks won’t sit well on the loss of their revenue, unlike the government.

            I won’t go into detail the argument on local car industry etc. We already know where the majority stand on that issue, job losses and profit outflow notwitstanding. It is the same as the invasion of international hypermarkets. The elite local partners (who does nothing) made money at the expense of mom & pop grocers. I still don’t see how lowering the price of cars will address the AP monopoly problem, as AP holders will probably do a bigger landslide business as their products are more competitively priced.

            I am sorry but the sentiment of people who only see their own immediate gain but not the impact on the environment, technology transfer and others is far too pervasive to ignore. The second hand auto industry will make the loudest noise. Yes, sure, it will be a relief for middle-income group, and sure, that’s where the votes will be. To please voters, the government is expected to do a lot of things, it is easy to be a populist government, but we have seen where this kind of mentality would lead us.

            Oh, the market for lemons!

          9. JM,

            I can understand your argument on lowering cost of ownership in subsequent purchases. But again, it doesn’t address the problem of what you have in your hands. There will be those falling into the category where their cars will no longer be sufficient in value to cover their outstanding loans. What do we do then?

            Further to your argument, it will now be cheaper to buy a car. Instead of paying say 75k for a Vios, we can get it for around 30k right? For those with sound financial acumen, this would be heaven sent. What about those who are reckless? This would mean one of two things. First would be to upgrade their car to a better model and/or make. Second would be, 2 for the price of 1. A potential issue for scenario 1 would be higher maintenance & running costs which affects primarily the owner. An even bigger issue for scenario 2 is putting more cars on the road which affects the public.

            Look at it from another angle. Banks now are faced with giving out lower loan sums. To prop up their profits, interest rates will go up. Though regulated, it will still be high. In fact circa 97-98, car loans were charged an interest of 10% p.a. with maximum 5 year tenure. That means you pay 50% of the loan amount as interest. As the loan market gets saturated with consumers scrambling to make purchases, banks get competitive. They’ll offer add ons as sweeteners. Say lets throw in a credit card plus maybe a personal loan or overdraft facility. Again, prudence means proper financial management. A lot though will be gung ho only to find themselves ending up in financial ruin.

            Adding more cars would choke our already congested roads. Imagine Federal Highway or LDP with a further say 30% increase in volume. Wong Tack will threathen to burn God knows what at the poisonous pollutants from emissions. You & me, we either have to come in early & go home late or be stuck in the traffic for hours daily. Does that add to our productivity? Does it enriches our family/personal lives? What about the increase in fuel consumption vis-a-vis? More fuel subsidy? Or do we levy congestion charges like Singapore? What about demand for carpark? In 2010, a carpark in my condo changed hands for 28k. Today, someone offered to buy a spot for 60k? Madness no?

            I would welcome a reduction in prices if the concerns of the ripple effects are addressed. As there are no info on how we can manage all this, unfortunately in my views are simply carrots dangled for votes which will be either shelved or whose implementation will be nowhere close to what has been promised.

          10. IHnS,

            Its obvious that reductions in taxes/duties will affect Proton, if they don’t buck up. However, I dont think citizens should be made to pay extra to keep afloat a fat cat corporation that has failed to stay competitive with other car corporations in the industry. We missed our chance with VW…

            My bottomline is its not fair for the man in the street to pay overinflated prices & shoulder heavy loans to get a car because he/she has little choice due to few public transport options, as I’ve highlighted earlier.

            Now if we do have a decent public transit system, I wouldn’t mind so much the high price… like what the little red dot does.

            FFC,

            An arguement that we shouldn’t reduce car prices, as it will encourage reckless spending, is like arguing that we shouldn’t have abolished the tax for computers & electronics, as it will encourage people to buy iPads & laptops on heavy credit.

            If we have a good public transit system in place, people will be more inclined to use it instead of getting more cars, even with cheaper prices… considering that the added running costs of the car are quite expensive also.

          11. The over-inflated price is for foreign cars, right? The difference goes to the government in the form of taxes, which is eventually spent. The only people who actually supported the fat cat corporations would be those who actually bought Proton and Perodua, hence contributing directly to their bottomline. Else, we are all just contributing to Honda, Toyota and Ford’s bottomlike.

            I think we have to be clear here about what or who are we against, profiteering or price gouging or monopoly or closed markets. I am not an advocator of blind open markets.

        3. My two cents worth on public healthcare.

          I grew up going to polyclinics & GHs for medical attention as my parents are both civil servants thus the free treatment. Yes, the rush is a regular occurence but I’ve yet to personally encounter any major issues with the services rendered. In fact my mum underwent major surgery in the GH 20 years ago & she’s fit as a fiddle.

          Today, I drop by a private practice if I’m under the weather. Reasons being it’s convenient & it’s paid for by the company. I eliminate waiting time & get proper attentionat a cost – upwards of RM50 for the doc to ask a few questions, stick an ice cream stick into my mouth, take my bp etc.

          To say that our healthcare is substandard, I have to disagree. My other half is one of only 3 registered specialist in Malaysia in her field of medicine. Despite being in her late 20s she’s a sought after speaker for healthcare conferences on her field of expertise owing to a lack of practitioners in that branch of medicine.

          As a salaried employee of a specialist clinic she (or rather her boss) charges RM180 for 1st consult & RM120 for followups at a maximum consultation time of 15 minutes. This excludes medications, tests, paraphernalia, surgery etc.

          She would normally get requests of consults from government hospitals which she would look into based on the urgency of the cases. On average, she drops by 2-3 times a month for such consults.

          She doesn’t have the slightest idea how much is her employer paid for her services but she does know that the patients aren’t. So someone is paying, and I’d put my money on the government. If that ain’t half decent, I don’t know what is.

        4. How much is an iPad JM? How much is a car? Which could be bought one 1 or 2 months salary for an average income earner? And why do you address the financial implications but disregarded the rest of my concerns? Pick & choose your rebuttal eh?

      2. simple…. if you fulfil the requirements, you are entitled to apply for citizenship but it is not guarantee that you will get one. Its the prerogative of the country. The application can be rejected for no reason. This is same with any countries in the world. In UK, even if you fulfil the requirement, your application for PR can rejected with no reason.

        heck, even the application for a VISA can be rejected for no reason.

        Those who got rejected will be deported…as with the case of more than 640,000 immigrants in Sabah.

        …what is the problem ?

      3. Pelarian/PATI dari Papua New Guinea yang beragama Christian pun di beri kewarganegaraan, di Sabah.

      4. Brader,
        The Malays give our forefathers, the chinaman and the tamilman citizenship. Some more the give us our vernacular schools.

        Why after some 50 years, you want to make noise about someone else getting citizenship? Luckily after they got their ICs, they never ask for Sekolah Jenis Kebangsaan Tagalog or Sekolah Jenis Kebangsaan Bangsamoro. Hell, I think will be in for a lot of headache.

        You ingat 1 orang saja ka contribute to nation’s growth to deny another human their rights?

  6. If the Chinese in this country are really colour-blind, then why they are worried when once in 2011, the Malays become majority in Penang?

    The Chinese can accept a Malaccan to become their CM just because he is Chinese, but I bet you they will object any move for the possibility of the first Malay CM in Penang, even if he is local Penangite.

    And dont forget, in Singapore, when the birth rate among the Chinese fell behind the Malay, PAP goverment import a thousand ‘talent’ from PR China, Hong Kong, Taiwan & Macau to make sure Chinese remain majority there..

    1. As long as he works for the good of the people, Penangites are willing to accept an Indian or Malay for CM.

      Will you accept a non Muslim Bumi (lets not talk about Chinese or Indian) to become a Menteri Besar of a Semenanjung State, or even for Prime Minister?

      1. re: “Penangites are willing to accept an Indian or Malay for CM.”

        Hahahahaha. What you smokin’, Jonny?

        Obviously you’re an Outworlder as far as the Chinese half of Planet Penang is concerned.

        1. In the scenario that a Malay or Indian CM is selected for Penang, you think there would be an uprising by the Chinese? Most likely not.

          Compare that to lets say, if a Chinese, Indian, or Idris Jala becomes Prime Minister. I’m sure there’ll be a mass freakout on the comment sections of your blog… Hahahahaa!

          1. You say you’ve visited Penang.

            It don’t sound like you’ve lived on Penang island.

            Hahahahahahaha, you’re still an Outworlder.

      2. but…Penangites accept LGE as their CM even though he is not good. He has done nothing in Penang, even the FDI is due to federal government.

        Btw, He is good at telling lies. At least, he is good at one thing.

        1. Really? Penangites think he’s doing a better job than the previous one. I’ve talked to many Penang ppl when I was there, and majority thinks so. This is not just Chinese, but also Indian & Malays too.

          1. Aiyoo, don’t be so insulting to our intelligence laa. You say you got high standards kan? So show us which survey you’re referring to, that penangites think the guy’s doing such a great job.

            Or are you only referring to a few thousand out of the total population, the rest of which hates his guts, such that he now needs protection from purple vested goons?

          2. Jonnymalaya wrote Penangites think he’s doing a better job than the previous one.

            Better in terms of what?
            If it’s in term of defiance level against UMNO folks in the DUN meetup, then yes, GE Lim definitely does a way better job in this area than his predecessor.

            If it’s in term of making real, tangible contribution to this state in the area of public transportation (yes, his government did initiate the Penang BEST Rapid, but there’s more needed to be done in this area), living quality, local election, etc; I haven’t seen anything substantial yet. Home prices have doubled (although this is also happening in JB, KL). I guess life goes on for folks like me whether it’s PR or BN take over.

            Maybe I’m wrong if you could list out what are the better job parts :-)

      3. What do means by “Penangites are willing to accept an Indian or Malay for CM”?

        Are you a representative of the people living in Pulau Pinang & Seberang Perai?

        Does the majority agree with what you have been smoking?

      4. JohhnyMalaya,

        No big deal. Just earn the right to be the Prime Minister. How? By winning the election. Just because a person fails to get the mandate, does not mean that ‘rakyat’ are racist.

        Another angle is ‘law of human nature”. we tend to choose “satu puak” to represent us. That is why nobody thinks a Malay can be the Prime Minister of Singapore . we can compromise but surely they will keep the highest post to them.

        Just like a visitor to your house. You play the role of gracious host very well. But surely you would not offer your master bedroom t your visitor, however fond you can be on him.

        TRIVIA: Misconception that Penang has a Chinese majority state. There is no majority race more than 50% of population. Chinese forms around 45% of population followed closely by malays. What makes the difference is sizable section of Malays are not registered to vote, therefore ma king Chinese to consitutes more than half of voters.

        And actually UMNO already had the chance in 1990 to form the govt. It was then (until today ) the most senior parter in BN Penang. It would not be problem should DR Mahathir want to put an UMNO ADUN as Chief Minister. The decision was his and his alone.

        Any other leader on this planet would do the same. But because Dr Mahathir thinks of “perasaan orang Cina” that he appointed DR Koh as Chief Minister.

        But Johhny malaya still think Malays are racist. I told one of my chinese friend who insulted me by saying why Malays are racist that if his remark is off the truth, UMNO would not wasted any times in executing Kit siang and entire families. LITERALLY SPEAKING. For i know Kit siang for his entire life instigating the Chinese to assume UMNO as racist.

        His face turn red. Serve him right.

        1. >> But Johhny malaya still think Malays are racist.

          Hello, hello, hello… point out a statement where I have said that Malays are a bunch of racist people.

          Thats your problem shamshul, I’ve read your posts, and what I find is you like to paint all races with a broad brush. “Malays are this…” “Chinese are that…” “Indians are…”. On top of that, you think you’re the spokesman of the Malays, so if I or anyone criticize you, automatically you will think the Malay race is being criticized.

          Lets not get started with your condescending attitude toward other groups…

    2. Please, even Tun Tan Cheng Lock turned his back on Onn Jaafar’s post UMNO parties. The Chinese are the most racial / racist (take your pick) people I know, and I am Chinese.

      1. I hate Nsyync,

        No comment on that. But i am not surprise.

        What I notice about chinese (no offense) is that most of them do not seem to understand that they irritate Malays by keep lamenting how unfairly (Chinese) they are treated (by a Malay led govt).

        I told them to migrate to Australia and say ask (demand) Canberra to fully fund separate vernacular school. The Aussies are likely to say “boleh berambus”.

        Why I keep reminding about unimaginable generosity of Malay rulers on granting citizenship en bloc? To remind people there are things in life worth appreciated. I find the act of granting citizenship (in this case) as a source of generosity, beauty that until today amazes me.

        Remember it changes forever the character of Malay states. It has becomes multiracial from previously EXCLUSIVELY MALAY.

        1. Dear Shamshul,

          You may be irritated, but the fact is they ARE being treated differently in some areas which have a profound impact on nation building.

          The active Malay-nization and Islamisation of the civil service, perceived unfair treatment in promotions and career advancement, quota in public institutions of higher learning, lack of public consultation and engagement in civic affairs, perversed affirmative action policies that benefited the political elites and their cronies. Need I go on?

          We are all Malaysians and we should learn to appreciate each other.

          1. I hate N’sync,

            “perceived unfair…..”. That is your perception. Try asking any Malays and they will tell you how unfairly Malays are treated in prvate sector.

            The way I see it, it is some extremist element in DAP that is challenging islam. Example is the word “allah”.

            Are chinese or indians treated badly when they can still win in malay majority areas. What I see is total refusal of chinese community in realising that before they came here, the land was previously known as Malay land. do not expect malay would destroy the character just to please the Chinese.

            “…perversed….” That again said to justify your refusal to accept nEP. Millions of malays benefited from the policy. Surely a few weaknesses cant erase the point that it does help deserving Malay community.

            need i go on? need i remind you that the so called “racist” Malay led govt allows separate Chinese school fully funded. why? Because the Chinese here feel that they lose their character if they mingle with malays. Only in malaysia they will lose character. Other chinese in other countries are still chinese eventhough they study with other races.

          2. Dear Shamshul,

            Everyone is allowed to have their perceptions, and if left unaddressed, erroneous perspectives will be perpetuated.

            Shamshul tak boleh hanya pandai mengungkit and tit for tat is useless. So what persepsi negatif orang Melayu tentang layanan kurang adil di sektor swasta. Apakah ini menghalalkan sikap pilih bulu atau warna kulit di sektor awam? Shamshul tak pernah fikir ke kedua-dua orang Melayu and bukan Melayu itu mangsa ketidakadilan? Diskriminasi berterusan sedemikian bukan satu penyelesaian.

            Berkenaan elemen pelampau dalam DAP yang mencabar Islam, saya rasa lebih tepat untuk menggunakan istiliah opportunis yang telah memperkuda sentimen keagamaan. Hakikatnya sudah ada pemimpin agama Kristian yang membuat percubaan menjolok sarang, tetapi yang peliknya Cina juga yang kena. As you know, I doubt many Chinese Malaysians use Allah and the Malay bible. Itu pribumi dan orang asli sebenarnya. Kenapa tak dilihat sejauh mana perundangan dapat menjamin kuasa enakmen Islam negeri ke atas yang bukan Islam?

            Kemenangan PRU oleh calon-calon bukan Melayu dalam kawasan majoriti pengundi Melayu itu sudah menjadi norma kerana majoriti kawasan pilihanraya itu Melayu. Adding gerrymandering practice to that and it is almost impossible to find that many Malay-minoriti constituencies. We can verify the figures from DOSM. Ramai pengundi bukan Melayu pun mengundi berdasarkan parti, bukan ras calon, jadi apa yang dihebohkan dengan calon bukan Melayu menang di kawasan Melayu atau sebaliknya?

            Siapa suruh dihilangkan ciri-ciri kemelayuan oleh orang bukan Melayu? Orang bukan Melayu sendiri tengah sibuk mempertahan kecinaan, keindiaan, kebajauan atau kebodohan masing-masing. Nama negara pun dah MALAYsia, bahasa kebangsaan pun MALAY, Raja-raja kita pun MALAY sultans, siap dengan undang-undang negeri yang mewajibkan MB itu MALAY. Tak cukup lagi untuk jati diri atau karektor Melayu?

            Kalau Shamshul merujuk kepada DEB Tun Razak saya siap angkat kedua-dua kaki setuju. DEB ala Mahathir kurang selera saya sikit. Matlamat DEB is to HELP THE DESERVING POOR, not deserving Melayu. Engkau tak baca matlamat DEB, mana dia sebut tolong orang Melayu aje?

            1. Mengurangkan dan akhirnya membasmi kemiskinan dengan meningkatkan pendapatan dan menambah peluang-peluang pekerjaan untuk SEMUA rakyat Malaysia tanpa mengira kaum; dan
            2. Mempercepatkan proses penyusunan semula masyarakat Malaysia untuk memperbetulkan ketidak seimbangan ekonomi supaya dapat mengurang dan seterusnya menghapuskan pengenalan kaum mengikut fungsi ekonomi.

            Matlamatnya semua murni dan halal dan molek. FELDA pun best. Bab sampai NEP Mahathir, hanya nampak kroni kapitalis yang kaut untung atas angin, langsung tak menyumbang kepada pembasmian kemiskinan SEMUA rakyat Malaysia tanpa mengira kaum dan memperbetul KETIDAKSEIMBANGAN ekonomi. DEB Mahathir makin lama makin tak seimbang, dengan ekuiti orang Melayu dipegang oleh segelintir elit Melayu sahaja.

            You pun tak payah nak bazir air liur dengan saya pasal “Chinese” school. Saya penyokong SRJK – vernakular peringkat sekolah rendah tetapi membantah ICHS. Secondary and tertiary education should be based on the national language, with university level work focusing on mastering an international language.

            Kalau nak pakai argument mingle, karang dia orang suruh orang Melayu ke sekolah Cina apa cerita?

  7. Race and religion have nothing in the governance of a country.

    Only those who are of the highest calibre and not the corrupt, scammers and scandalous can ascend to such lofty heights!

    And especially not those who are sexually inappropriate!

    However, it defied logic that someone in the last category has been elected to very high office in one party!

    And not only that, but be adored by the deviant followers!

    It’s the Malaysian equivalent of a cult!!!

    So what gives?

  8. There will always be a winner and looser…come 13th GE.
    There will be a government formed to govent her..
    Who govent’s her is not the matter but how she will be govent that counts..

  9. PAP Singapork skg ini cuba menambahkan lagi kemasukan imigran dari negara China ke Singapork untuk menstabilkan populasi penduduk keturunan China. DAP tak usah berpura-pura. Kamu kaum Cina sepatut berterima kasih kepada UMNO pada masa kemerdekaan dahulu kerana membenarkan menjadi warganegara mee segera. Skg sudah jadi cacing naik ke mata.

  10. Helen, if anything, I say kudos for waking up.

    I think I can say this as I have experienced it. The cult mentality of certain groups, claiming to be ‘apolitical’ yet, when you have a differing view, they hang you out faster than their wet laundry.

    Malaysians have a lot to be thankful for, yet all we ever do is complaint. It never occurred to us that this is the life envisioned for us by our ancestors.

    I think it is fair to say that a lot of us have lost touch with reality.

    It seems these days, all of us qualify as Politicians because we are bombarded by all these information (factual or not does not seem to matter as well) and we seem to repeat it without even bothering to check for facts.

    And it also seems that if you have your 2 minutes of fame being told to listen, then you will have your own time slot for political ceramah!

    Such is the level of maturity that Malaysians have, and when you do bother to research, it is probably always ‘Wikipedia’ that gets cited.

    I say, as long as we have a level head and question when there is a need to and accept explanations when justified, then we will not be as crazy as the Americans who seem to thik that everything is a conspiracy.

    To the opposition, stop opposing everything and come up with something credible, for we did vote you the last time in 2008, not as Pakatan Rakyat, but as an alternative. Now that you already have these many seats, stop f#@*ing around and counter the government when you are supposed to.

    All I can say is that the last time I voted out of anger, this time, I know I will vote them because of their ability.

    1. Glad to have you comment Tony.

      We’ve come some ways since our earlier day allegiances. Remember the morning after election (on 9 March 2008) and the company we kept then, wink.

      Catch up one of these days for teh tarik :)

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