Wanita-wanita Melayu jelita dalam gambar ialah bintang filem Saloma (kanan), Hashimah Yon (tengah) beserta Zaiton yang dirakam pada tahun 1959. Pandai guna sepit pula.
Untuk melihat gambar gadis-gadis Perkasa yang didakwa “berpakaian tidak senonoh” dan “menjolok mata sekali”, sila klik laman Harakah, ‘Gadis seksi demo: Perkasa malukan umat Islam’ (24 Feb 2013)
Soalan untuk pembaca blog ini:
Apa perasaan anda apabila seseorang penyokong pembangkang sama ada Cina atau Kristian memuji, misal kata,
“If only there were more Malays / Muslims like you”
gara-gara orang Melayu tersebut dianggap liberal.
Contohnya orang Melayu yang
- menyokong orang bukan-Islam dibenar menggunakan kalimah Allah ataupun
- mengutuk Ibrahim Ali/Ridhuan Tee ataupun
- menggalakkan orang Islam mengunjung ke gereja / mempelawa orang bukan-Islam mengunjung ke masjid sebagai tanda persahabatan dsb,
akan diberitahu “If only there were more Malays / Muslims like you”. Ada apa-apa di sebalik pujian?
Helen Ang 
Well at least there’s no PAS ulamaks saying anything about rape and them deserving it.
Yet.
And they could have at least chose better pics to make their point.
Or maybe that’s considered sexy and model like in Kelantan.
If that’s the case I wonder how the men face the temptation of crossing Sungai Golok and doing you know what.
What were the Malays of the 1950s and 60s like?
The jantans were more respectful of their women in those days. Now porn so easily accessible with a click….all innocence lost …at an early age .Lepas tu nak jadi lebeh Arab dari Arab….. confused terus!
Helen, perempuan Melayu cantik dan pandai bersolek mcm gambar Saloma tu kerana itu memang budaya Melayu.
Tapi pemikiran irasional dari sistem pembelajaran yang totok membuat Melayu jadi ngok mcam PAS. Naluri untuk kecantik dan keseronokan itu memang kehendak manusia sebab itu kita dapati pemimpin tertinggi PAS Mat Sabu bersenda mesra dengan Mah isteri orang di youtube..hehe.
Melayu masih seperti zaman P Ramlee cuma sekarang mereka terpaksa jadi hipokrit dan menyorokkan keperibadian Melayu mereka kerana “takut” dengan kawan alim. Bukan takut dengan dosa, Mat Sabu masih tetap bau Mah tak kira hudud PAS.
Ahli PAS juga tahu dan mungkin ramai antara mereka berhijrah ke Golok regularly. Jadi jangan percaya sangat dengan Melayu dalam PAS. They know not what they are doing. They are just following the basest literal translation of the kitab which is the easiest to follow. It is not helped that UMNO too lack rational leadership.
Tan Sri P Ramlee would have been a great leader for the Malays but he was busy with his movies and songs.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
If only we could rewind (turn back time) and redo. — Helen
“Tan Sri P Ramlee would have been a great leader for the Malays but he was busy with his movies and songs.”
Awesome statement. Anytime. Many times, I’d wake up in the middle of the night thinking how if this man, nay, this bloody LEGEND is still alive. I, like millions of us, miss him, even though he left to the other side (whose residences are now bloody lucky to have him) the year I was born.
Probably the kind of post-colonial Malays that Mahathir hated but the only kind that could produce the Malay Dilemma. I suppose it is the old story of class conflict but conveniently misdiagnosed as race tensions.
BN gave up the progressive Islamic middle ground some time ago. Some people are dismissive of the idea that Anwar Ibrahim played a role in this or that post fall of the Shah of Iran and the rise of political Islam have had a fucked effect on Islam in Malaysia.
It was not all UMNO’s doing (but of course I blame them more, since they were (are) leading the country) but also PAS who were far more “leftist” orientated than any of the other political entities in this country but who chose the simpler Islamic route as a means of solidarity.
I have very little sympathy for the hypocrites in UMNO who played the Islamic card against the Non-Muslims all the while trying to out Islamize PAS.
The DAP attempting to define what is and is not an “acceptable Malay/Muslim” plays well with urban voters and as a means for controlling the race and religion discourse but is ultimately hollow simply because they fund or draw support from the forces of intolerance be it Islam or Christianity.
The “tudung girls” of the DAP are muhibbah porn for kool aid drinkers but in reality nothing more than subterfuge in an ongoing culture war
Spot on comment, Conrad. I’ll shall asterisk. These key points which you’ve articulated so well need to be filtered out to the public consciousness.
UMNO outislamize PAS?
Why do you say that when what happens is always the other way around. UMNO can never outislamize a party that has Islam in its name and its leadership composed of self appointed ustads and ulamaks.
In fact what’s UMNO is doing is questioning PAS brand of islam that leads them to be unrespecting and unaccepting of fellow muslims in UMNO while allying with DAP who goes against PAS entire point of existence and even tried to mess with Malaysian muslims by abusing the Allah issue.
Re: out Islamize PAS
Are you denying that the Malay polity has not undergone a process of Islamization or Arabisation and this happened under UMNO’s stewardship of this country?
Keep in mind that Anwar Ibrahim is on record as saying that he was part of this movement of political Islam.
Are you denying the rethoric of UMNO when it comes to questioning PAS’s Islamic credentials ?
Re: questioning PAS’s brand of Islam
You do realize that by questioning PAS’s brand of Islam the implication is that UMNO has its own brand that it wants to promote.
We can only judge what each brand has to offer by the social changes in Malay community.
How you choose to interpret this UMNO/PAS dialectic is up to you but I do not think there is any argument that the only logical conclusion we can arrive at, is that a progressive form of Islam was never in the cards when it comes to PAS or UMNO.
UMNO Islam = State Islam (Shafie)
PAS Islam = Mixed bag of dominant Sunni (Shafie) and Wahabi
You need to realize that in Malaysia, Malay and Islam is viewed as synonymous, and Malays view Islam as not only a religion but a way of life. You can see this through various things like the syariah courts, islamic banking and such. A Malay party embracing Islam and therefore implementing islamic details is inevitable. The existence of Islamic based party like PAS helps to push it along, after all political parties want to win the people, and the Malays are an Islamic people. You seriously can’t expect for UMNO to be left behind. As for Arabisation, I don’t see it much coming from UMNO types, while PAS politicians, well, you can just see it through their favorite uniforms. In fact, let’s just remind you that DAP in order to win PAS people wear Malay clothes and tudungs.
Seeing you dismiss UMNO going against PAS brand of Islam as just merely promoting their own brand clearly shows you don’t see how importantly Malays view Islam. Like I said, their religion is part of their way of life. You can just see for yourself the PAS types how they live and what they want implemented to see what their priorities are. It doesn’t need a non muslim to see that whatever kind of Islam they are applying they are way behind the times.
By the way, what kind of progressive form of Islam do you have in mind and what party In Malaysia do you think would be closest to it?
Sorry..I wasn’t even born yet so I wouldn’t know.
I’m guessing most Malays that time probably are rural except for civil servants.
Those P Ramlee movies must have seemed so glamorous at that time.
I liked the old b & w Malay movies, costume drama with tuan puteri, dayang-dayang, hulubalang, kampung scenery and Latifah Omar.
Saloma was a hot babe, another photo of her here if you’re interested.
My question was open. There are some regular commenters here who do remember the 50s and 60s era.
I said I wanted my blog to take a new direction. I think it should be a platform for people’s voices to be heard.
Blogging on Papa & Mama Dapster is negative content. We’re able to move on to more positive and constructive stuff although by popular request I’ll maintain my blog’s political tone.
Helen,
Not just old Malay movies are good. The words used (dialogues) are so beautiful. Try watching “seri Mersing” or “Sultan Mahmud Mangkat diJulang”.
Another interesting note is Najib”s allegiance speech to the Yang DiPertuan agung during His majesty’s coronation recently. Najib read from the text prepared. The language is so beautiful.
Thanks. Can pls give the url to Najib’s allegiance speech to the Yang DiPertuan Agong?
and please the the speech by Raja Nazrin recently. Its so beautifully written. I wonder who wrote the speech.
I told this to my wife and she agrees, in my opinion, Malay girls are the best looking, the sexiest (whatever that means, just ask the Anglophile Kardashian fans), the, the most, sopan santon-est, budi-bahasa-esque girls ever. I am training my one-year old son to like Malay girls by occasionally going to Rawang Tesco where he is treated with lots of little (very small, but we’ll wait) Malay girls frolicking about. I don’t give a rat’s ass about religion conversion and stuff. I would love for him to hook up with a Malay girl, pick up the the beauty of Malay culture- budi bahasa, sopan santon,
Malay girls have not changed much since Saloma’s time. They are still hot and sexy and knows they want it. The only difference is that some may be wearing tudung or hijab. But they are still seductive when they can and have the chance. They may refuse to take off their tudung but they wont mind taking off other important pieces of clothing.
And they talk just as ribald as before or more, there really is not much difference. The only problem only when it becomes an incongruity such as Yuna singing seductive love songs. God thats so jarring.
Or what about Shila covering her hair but kissing a man’s hand in public. God..this girls are pitiful, they have to cover their natural Malay seductiveness behind irrational arabic head gear to appear religious islam wise. In Indonesia they have a common term munafikin or hipokrit and their modern women still dress sexily.
The tudung can be convenient if you want to appear demure after some love making or to keep their parents off their sexual activities.
Mah, the partner of the famous Mat Sabu, is a perfect example of a salaciously sexy Malay woman that Mat Sabu cannot get enough of.
Will the Malays be arabised more in future? Looking at the middle east that is unlikely as the Arabs themselves are changing. They are going to let their women drive cars alone in future!
Imagine if Saudi Arabia monarchy is to break up, Islam would be just like Catholicsm, the myth broken except in some backward tribes.
The freedom available to Malay women will ensure that they are able to mix freely with the opposite sex. This in turn ensure it is impossible to have Iran or Saudi like Islam where, for women to be totally controlled, they must be deprived of their social freedom. As now, they are sexually active tudung wearers haha..
Islam Nik Aziz and Hadi brand is over. It will be Mat Sabu relaxed type for the Kelantan Malays. The fact that they can work with pork eating kafir Chinese shows the irrationality of their thinking. Now they just want power and money and women. A sexual casanova, an exposed sodomite leading PAS… hmm will they be fighting for LGBT next?
Dear Helen
If only lot’s and lot of Chinese like you Malaysia will be more prosperous because our leaders could concentrate more on development and less politic ,especially the racial politic.
:)
Helen,
I decided to write in Bahasa today:
Pertama: Mengenai isu gadis seksi perkasa malukan umat Islam oleh Harakah. Pada saya Ibrahim Ali bukanlah seorang Melayu yang tulin memperjuangkan Islam. Jadi, tindakan beliau menggunakan gadis-gadis tidak bertudung (terbuka aurat) tentunya tidak dalam perancangan. Tambahan pula, Ibrahim Ali bukanlah seorang individu yang berprofil tinggi dalam dunia Islam jadi tindakan beliau saya lihat lebih kepada perjuangan Bangsa Melayu.
Kedua: Memang benar gadis2 Melayu zaman ‘Saloma’ kelihatan amat seksi, modern (mengikut trend zaman itu) tetapi gaya mereka dipengaruhi oleh budaya British sebelum Merdeka. Tidak dinafikan gadis Melayu skrg ada yang terlebih seksi terutama di KL, PJ, Penang, JB dan bandar-bandar besar lain yang terpengaruh dengan budaya kebaratan dan kurangnya kesedaran untuk menutup aurat seperti anjuran Islam.
Ketiga: Ungkapan “If only there were more Malays / Muslims like you”, pada saya biasanya membawa 2 makna samada ikhlas dan mungkin sindiran. Orang yang mengungkapkan perkataan ini yang lebih mengetahui niatnya manakala yang dipuji itu harus berhati-hati…..jangan sampai syok sendiri…rupa-rupanya sudah tersasar….
Keempat: Liberal atau menjadi seorang yang liberal tidak bermakna apa-apa jika sampai mengorbankan prinsip yang wajib. Maksud saya tidak perlu ‘bertukar’ menjadi liberal untuk mendapat sokongan kawan dengan mengorbankan hukum yang wajib….
wallahu’alam.
agreed :)
KA
“Naib Ketua Pemuda PAS Kelantan, Mohd Hafiz Musa berkata, program yang bercampur gaul lelaki dan perempuan yang berpakaian tidak senonoh anjuran Perkasa semalam cukup memalukan umat Islam.”
errr..BERSIH 1,2,3?
that last Himpunan whatcamacallit??
‘scuse me while I go looking for the barf bag – this stinking smell of hyppcrisy is overwhelming la…
Yes, we all know when PR men and women get together it’s for the benefit and betterment of the people. When BN men and women get together it’s definitely an orgy. I’m very certain that is written somewhere in their books or manifest or whichever. Personally, if anyone says to me they wish for more liberal minded Malays like me, I’ll probably respond f*** you because hey, I’m liberal.
re: “When BN men and women get together it’s definitely an orgy”
LOL. Hope there are circulars cautioning the coffee boys and tea ladies volunteering during the election campaign to beware BN officials.
It was mentioned in the Harakah article that it was a disgrace & insult to Islam, the way the grid girls, I mean Perkasa girls mixed with the male crowd at the demonstration.
Funny they said nothing about men & women mixing freely at 3 Bersih demos & the Himpunan Kebangkitan Rakyat rally eh? The non Muslims were especially “eye jolokking” in their dressing that time with their sleeveless tops & shorts.
Selective myopia? Or selective short term memory loss? Either way, them DAP cultists would probably not wish there were more Malays/Muslims like that.
ohhhh you mean ‘towering malay’ hahahaha… and when they are not in the same view we insult them lahkan
with regard to the question you posed, it has happened to me quite a few times. I suspect I am a pseudo-liberal though I hate to admit it. Anyway, not sounding like a total bitch, i find that compliment quite condescending, personally.
I don’t know how to explain it but I find it rather patronizing…but then again, it is me. I handle compliment worst than being criticised (could be due to low self-esteem, god knows).
Anyway, back to my pseudo-liberalism, though i am all for humanity, compassion, equality but i come to realise that the world itself is never & not fair. I am sure, some will say ‘easy for you to say that cos u’re a malay & u have this racist govt to help, u Umnoputras’.. problem is, they have done or give me nothing, which is pathetic really cos i harbour the desire to indulge in some apartheid, racist benefit, cronyism, etc and play my race card to gain some benefits but nooo, not me.. makes me feel i am not good enough by this racist govt of ours – so does that mean I am a failed Melayu?
Anyway, my liberalism stop short at religion. Thanks to my Catholic friend actually. I appreciate all religions as they teach you to be good but desecrating, mocking, sharing God’s name is a no-no in my book.
As a muslim, I find the born again muslims or those taking the extremists POV as scary.. that’s why I had a good laugh just now reading the comments by Harakah readers.
So that’s me answering your question.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I find the Tok Lebai-Tok Lebai of PAS scary too but Chinese Christian Pakatan supporters are looking at the PAS religiosity through rose-tinted comrade glasses since their parties hopped into bed together. — Helen
Adegan filem Melayu klasik banyak mengetengahkan gaya hidup orang Melayu zaman tersebut. Dalam filem Madu 3 misalnya, golongan elit Melayu gemar bermain mahjong dan beberapa lagi adegan berjudi dan mabuk arak di dalam filem lakonan Tan Sri P. Ramlee. Iklan Guiness Stout berbahasa Melayu seperti tertera dibawah turut menjadi perhatian di laman sosial dan juga beberapa blog.
Penerapan ajaran Islam dalam masyarakat Melayu bukannya mengambil masa sehari. Penambahbaikan penguatkuasaan perundangan syariah mengambil masa berpuluh-puluh tahun sejak dari merdeka.
Masih lagi teringat akan Rahima Orchient Yayah seorang wanita Melayu-Islam terakhir di Malaysia yang menyertai pertandingan Miss Malaysia World pada 1994 (top 10 finalis bersama Aishwarya Rai) sebelum fatwa larangan penyertaan terhadap wanita Islam dalam pertandingan ratu cantik yang dikeluarkan. Rahima mempunyai pinggul yang menawan ketika mengenakan bikini. Saya rangkumkan ulasan dari topik ini (“Malay-sia” and the northern gangland) disini. Maka, itulah sebabnya sesetengah negara luar selain negara timur tengah tidak nampak wajah sebenar masyarakat Malaysia kerana wakil yang dihantar terdiri daripada Cina, India, kacukan tempatan, Eurasian dsb.
Untuk makluman,saya hanya berpeluang melawat negeri Kelantan buat pertama kali ketika usia mencecah 19 tahun (agak terlalu lambat). Sebelum melawat negeri tersebut,saya hanya membayangkan masyarakat wanita Melayu Kelantan majoritinya berhijab dan mengamalkan sepenuhnya cara hidup seperti Arab Islam memandangkan Kelantan dikatakan sebagai negeri serambi Mekah malahan diperintah oleh sebuah kerajaan negeri yang islamik. Namun apabila saya tiba di Kota Bharu, saya dapati pergaulan dan penampilan fesyen wanita di sana tidak jauh beza dengan wanita yang ada di pantai barat.
Yang berbeza hanyalah dialek dan gaya hidup masyarakat di sana. Yang menjadi tarikan saya hanyalah masyarakat bukan Melayu yang “diKelantankan” di mana begitu fasih bertutur dialek Kelantan dan juga restoran Cina
yang hanya menjual makanan halal yang dikunjungi oleh majoriti orang Melayu di sana. Di situ baru saya teringat, PAS sebenarnya bukanlah diasaskan di Kelantan.
Pertuturan kaum Cina dalam bahasa Melayu dialek Kelantan juga mengingatkan saya kepada seorang sahabat berketurunan peranakan Melaka di mana beliau sering bertutur dalam bahasa Melayu apabila berkomunikasi bersama kelompok rakan-rakan Cina. Saya berasa begitu uniknya tinggal di Malaysia.
Saya juga masih teringat pemandangan sekitar tahun 80an di mana wanita-wanita Melayu di kampung saya begitu selamba berkemban dihadapan rumah berbual-bual bersama jiran tanpa berasa malu dan tidak menghiraukan orang yang lalu lalang. Namun suasana tersebut beransur-ansur lenyap menjelang tahun 90an hingga kini.
Pada saya, masyarakat Melayu tidak lahir terus memakai serban dan purdah. Dan pemakaian seseorang itu tidaklah melambangkan dalaman individu itu. Sedangkan pada hari ini banyak video pornografi yang di sebarkan melalui telefon memaparkan lakonan wanita Melayu yang bertudung litup bak lindungan Kaabah. Tidak pula dicacah mana-mana tatu parti politik dibadan mereka.
Persoalan siapa yang lebih islamik, siapa lebih liberal, siapa paling kafir atau murtad di dalam masyarakat Melayu adalah bersifat hipoteis dan subjudis. Secara peribadi, saya tidak berkenan akan tindak tanduk Ibrahim Ali “overdose” memPerkasakan Melayu. Beliau bukanlah ikon yang mewakili masyarakat Melayu Islam secara keseluruhannya. Saya juga tidak bersetuju Dr Ridhuan Tee menyerang penganut agama lain tetapi masih menghormati beberapa hujah beliau menyentuh sikap kiasu sesetengah kaum Cina terhadap bangsa lain serta beberapa perkara menyentuh isu agama Islam.
Anehnya, mengapa penyokong tegar PAS mampu menutup mata berarak bersama-sama penyokong tegar DAP yang berpakaian separuh telanjang di dalam kebanyakan perhimpunan dan demonstrasi jalanan. Adakah peminat bola sepak dan filem di kalangan ahli dan penyokong PAS menggunakan cermin mata berpenapis khas bagi mengelak dari melihat aurat ahli sukan/selebriti di kaca TV setiap hari?
[“If only there were more Malays / Muslims like you” ]
Bergantung kepada intonasi yang disebutkan, mungkin bertujuan menyindir, membodek atau mungkin juga dengan tujuan untuk mengheret tangan untuk tujuan dan kepentingan menambah sokongan politik.
Cerminan kepada kenyataan diatas untuk Cina/kaum lain tanpa mengira agama :
Alangkah baiknya ada ramai kaum Cina/India/LLB seperti anda (Helen dan lain2 sebagai contoh) yang betul-betul memahami pembentukan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu dan juga gagasan penubuhan Malaysia.
Semanis-manis gula berpasir juga, sepahit-pahit jadam menjadi ubat.
re: “Di situ baru saya teringat, PAS sebenarnya bukanlah diasaskan di Kelantan.”
Petikan sejarah PAS @ http://www.pas.org.my/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1092&Itemid=679
Dari sudut pembinaan ideologi perjuangan PAS, dikatakan berlaku tiga fasa iaitu fasa penubuhan dan pembentukan ideologi (1951-1958), fasa pencernaan ideologi (1958-1982) dan fasa pengukuhan idelogi (1982-1995)[5]
ref :
[5] Zambry Abd Kadir (1995), Religion and Politics: The Search for Political Legitimacy of The Pan-Islamic Party of
Malaysia, Tesis PhD, Temple University, h. 25-28.
rujuk tesis orang UMNO?
Yowser.
Here is what Melayu Baru (yeah I went there) Zairil Khir Johari said about Najib’s latest provocation against the DAP(PR) –
“Not only was there an increase in the allocation for Muslim affairs, but a RM80 million plot of land was given for a seven-storey Syariah Court to replace the old two-storey building,” he said.
“The state initiated the halal industry, acquired land to extend burial grounds for Muslims, increased by 80 percent the allowances of mosque staff, and recognised the keepers of the Quran (para huffaz). For the first time, it provided annual allocations for religious schools or Sekolah Agama Rakyat.”
Apparently now DAP wants to out Islamize UMNO.
How-lah the secular state ? Why complain of “ajaran sesat” ? Where-lah all the apparanchiks who complain that Islam has intruded into our private and public spaces ?
Why indeed does DAP encourage Islam among the Malays? Because religion, they know is an opiate to lull the masses while they get the 80 million contract to build the syariah court. The Malays will be busy suing each other in syariah court and the state JAIPP manpower will be increased to Jabatan Intai Pu-i Perempuan in hotels, houses etc.
It wont be surprising if they build a 100 million mosque as long as their crony uncle get the job.
Now every one seems to realise the usefulness of religion. Sedated with peeping women, the Malays will be dociled fed with false sense of syurga with money from the DAP Chinese.
UMNO leaders spouted speeches about technology and innovation but then they build arab school pondoks for the Malay boys. While they share the mega projects.
The Malays will be reduced whipping their women for drinking tiger beers and [edited].
And they say that is what the Arabs taught us!
Meanwhile the Penang silicon valley will employ foreign expertise and the Malays will live on the fringe of Penang or leave.
Re anonymous with a small “a”:
I hardly think I was dismissing UMNO for chasing the Malay vote. As you point out everyone including the DAP is chasing the Muslim vote.
As far as the Arabisation process is concerned, it goes way beyond the cosmetic detail you mentioned to how Islam is interpreted and practiced.
I am very well aware that Islam is a way of life for Malays but part of the point of this blog post was to demonstrate how it has changed over the years and the underlying philosophies and hypocrisies of those who claim guardianship over the religion, UMNO and PAS.
I do not for one-minute think that the way that Pas types live and what they want implemented means they are way behind the times.
Depending on the issue UMNO (now) takes the hardline, PAS (now) takes the moderate stance, and the two Islamic entities vacillate between the two positions depending on how each thinks it will play in the Malay/Muslim demographic.
As to what kind of progressive Islam I have in mind and which party best promotes it. The answer is simple. I want to go back to the time in the photograph.
What I want is the Islam of Malaysia of the kind observed in the 40’ and 50’. No Islamic party promotes this now. So maybe instead of progressive we can call it retro (at least in the Malaysian context).
re: “I want to go back to the time in the photograph. What I want is the Islam of Malaysia of the kind observed in the 40’ and 50’. No Islamic party promotes this now.”
We are on the same page, Conrad. Perhaps we could try to pursue this line – restore the Islam in practice of Tunku Abdul Rahman’s time.
The readers of this blog who can recall the 1950s should share with us their remembrances.
I have another photo you will like, Tun Rahah. It tickles me pink that the mother of the PM can look this gorgeous.
You are asking for the impossible. The retro Malays you admire is something that remains in old movies and photographs.
Those were the times when Malays were Malays instead of Muslim Malays.
Yes, it changed over the years, be what the reasons, it doesn’t even take Malaysian muslims to be responsible for the change. With globalization more Malaysian muslims are are more involved in international muslim matters. Whatever happens outside Malaysia changes the Malaysian muslims as well. Also the changes can also be triggered by what Malaysian non muslims do. What Lim Guan Eng did on Christmas is just stabbing his PAS partner in the back.
After what non PAS supporters have and still endure in the PAS strongholds, you saying PAS taking the moderate stance is unbelievable.
Maybe it just seems that way to non Muslims. So maybe cosmetics and outward appearances are that important after all, if they manage to make non muslims think so.
On the other hand you have DAP politicians entering mosques and preaching using Koran to PAS supporters, even when everybody is real clear on what DAP’s position is towards the core of PAS principles. So I guess it’s a two way street.
Re: Admiration of retro Malays and asking the impossible
I never said I admired the retro Malay. You asked for my definition of “progressive” Islam and I gave it to you. Is it impossible for the Malays to separate religion from their politics and social life?
I do not think so. The current so called split in the Malay community includes a range of issues from class conflicts, personality politics, the conflation of religious and racial cards and the definitional arguments of what is Islam.
Re: those times were when Malays were Malays instead of Malay Muslims
I disagree. I think those were times when the Malay community did not define themselves solely by their religion not that they showed any less commitment to their faith.
The Malay Muslim meme is a concoction of UMNO that as I explained earlier was designed place the Malay Muslim community in perpetual siegedom and as shorthand for unity.
This is certainly ironic since on his recent visit to the Troubled Lands, none other than the Abbas administration accused PM Najib of spreading disunity in the Muslim Palestinian community
Re: Changes in the Malay Muslim community
While I agree with you that globalization has had an effect on the Malay Muslim community as it has on every other community, I think we should not let this detract from the fact that it is UMNO not PAS that has shaped Islam here in Malaysia (or rather PAS did shape it in a fall guy/boogeyman kind of way).
Earlier you dismissed my argument of the Arabisation process of the community. Here you say that outside forces shaped Malay Muslim community.
It is UMNO, which has been the gatekeeper to Islamic thought and how the outside forces shaped Islam, is predicated on how much pressure UMNO allowed in.
Re: Changes triggered by Non-Muslims and LGE backstabbing PAS.
While I agree Malay Muslim that politics are reactionary, I would say the only constructive approach would be to examine each issue and discover if the controversy was manufactured by UMNO (which there is plenty of evidence off) or that if Non-Muslims engineered the controversies.
The example you offered is LGE backstabbing PAS. I have no argument here. The issue was settled and LGE chose cheap publicity and scaremongering over rational reconciliatory politics. PAS was forced to backtrack on earlier commitments.
I am on record as saying that UMNO can claim the high ground here and I detest UMNO.
Re: your last two paragraphs
Sorry but I do not understand what you are attempting to convey.
If you are saying (please correct me if I am wrong) that
(1) PAS and its supporters have had to make sacrifices in holding the middle ground and my “disbelief” is insulting, then let me dissuade you from this notion. I believe that PAS is the only ideologically pure political party in this mess.
The ebb and flow of moderation is in its quest for power is justified within doctrinal context that is often mocked by UMNO/BN and sometimes even by the so-called “politics of love[rs]”.
(2) When non-muslims (DAP) preach using the Koran is the height of hypocrisy and this point to the moral bankruptcy of oppositional politics.
Then yes, I would agree with you simply because I do not think that the religious card should be used in politics (which is unfortunately a minority view) and certainly not by religious charlatans like the DAP who would use Islam when it is political expedient to do so, much like their nemesis UMNO.
Re: Photo Helen posted.
We are on the same page. It is a wonderful photo and I would welcome folks who lived through those times or heard stories from it to relate their experiences on this thread.
You wish for Malays to separate religion from politics and social life. It is impossible as long as PAS exist. PAS itself values Islam more than they value getting along with other Malays.
What you say is what I meant exactly when I said Malays were Malays instead of Malay Muslims. I don’t see why you disagree with me. I did not comment on anything regarding their faith.
The Malays do feel they are under siege and disunited. A nationalistic Malay based party like UMNO would certainly tap into this.The Palestine situation is in disunity even before Najib set foot there. Fatah and Hamas are at each other throats and each held down their own regions. Abbas is afraid about Najib’s visit making Hamas’s side stronger.
I don’t understand what you mean by UMNO being the gatekeeper of Islamic thought, UMNO does try to implement and uphold Islamic values and defend Islam’s role in nation building. What is this pressure you’re talking about. Islamic lines of thought in Malaysia are rather conservative. There is not much difference what a PAS and UMNO person believes in when it comes to Islamic basic principles. Muslims in Malaysia belong to the same sect generally. Difference is PAS wants so called clerics to lead and apply Islamic values to everything. Recent DAP actions only served to show PAS existence as meaningless to its own followers. What is the point of clerics leading if they ultimately bow to Karpal Singh?And yet you blame UMNO and detest them. UMNO does not mind control Lim Guan Eng and Karpal Singh.
Would be funny if they do though.
PAS is ideologically pure, you say, and yet you say that their conforming to DAP as sacrifices to hold the middle ground. These sacrifices go against everything their party is, it’s a betrayal and a selling out of their own. This only serves more to make the Malays under siege and threatened. Not to mention making PAS an easy target of mockery. It is only to be expected.
Though that was not what I originally meant. What I meant is that the DAP PAS partnership is a sham and while the two sides make attempts to please each other it is only meant to deceive each other.
I do not wish for Malays to separate religion from politics and social life. I am saying that they are already separated (at least by definition) with the conflict between PAS and UMNO.
On the one hand you claim that PAS values Islam more than getting along with Malays and on the other you claim that by attempting the middle ground (which you think Malays are excluded from) they are betraying Islam. It is all very confusing.
If the Malays are truly under siege like you claim then why is there a split in the Malay community with one side believing this UMNO narrative and the other skeptical of it.
I am glad you acknowledge the splits in other Muslim communities like the Palestinian schism. However, my reference to Najib was the contradiction of attempting Muslim unity here but sowing Muslim disunity abroad.
What I mean by UMNO’s role as gatekeeper is merely that UMNO controls the kind of influences that Malaysian Muslims are exposed to. If you claim that Malaysian Muslims are conservative and you acknowledge that the retro Muslims were of different temperament, than you have to ask yourself what were the state sanctioned influences that changed and shaped this mindset.
In addition, where did it come from, when as you say, Muslims here in Malaysia are influenced by the greater Muslims “struggles” worldwide.
Your characterization of the PAS/DAP dynamic is the usual UMNO propaganda. While I may agree it is a sham, (an uncharitable view since most coalitions (any in the world) of differing ideologies attempt to claim the middle ground) this is no different from Mahathir/UMNO claiming that Malaysia is an Islamic state but all the while attempting moderation with its coalition partners.
While in reality there may not be much difference in the Islamic belief systems of UMNO and PAS, each has its own way of attaining the middle ground, where most Malaysians reside.
You claim that PAS subservience to the DAP is a sign of hypocrisy but fail to consider that UMNO wanting desperately to convince the non-Muslims of it moderation could be hypocritical too.
You may think that PAS attempting the middle ground is ideologically impure but as I said, this is justified within a doctrinal context. You may believe that Islam is static and in most places in the world it is but there are others ideas in Islam beyond conservative xenophobic ones and these are justified with interpretations from the Koran.
You would only think that this is a betrayal of Islam if you believed in a narrow interpretation of the Koran and if you believed this, I would ask you to consider if UMNO has ever had a narrow interpretation of the Koran and applied it strictly in its rule of this country.
If the PAS/DAP partnership is a sham then any partnership with an Islamic entity is a sham if the middle ground is attempted. This would mean that UMNO is immoral and hypocritical if they claim that they are the defenders of Islam all the while making noises of moderation towards the non-Muslim community.
I do think this discussion has run its course and we would end up just repeating talking points if we continue. Thanks for being civil.
On a lighter note, I notice up thread references made to the uninhibited Malay woman.
Because I do not want to perpetuate any stereotypes, I will not be releasing any time soon my Alvin/Vivian homage
Conrad and Siti: The Politics of love and its sequel Conrad and Siti: The Rise of Ah Chong
I’d like to put up what you’ve written as a posting proper. I hope other readers will give thought. Thanks!
Well, even though you and I both probably want this argument to end, I just hope for you to see things from my viewpoint.
First, UMNO is a Malay party foremost, PAS on the other hand is an Islamic party. Over the years, the Malay identity come to strongly identify with Islam. You may doubt UMNO moderation, but let’s not forget that UMNO’s strength has always been due to its role in a coalition with Chinese and Indian parties since independence. This relationship has been under fire by both PAS and DAP since a long time ago, with one side claiming UMNO betraying Malays by cooperating with Chinese and DAP claiming MCA’s being under UMNO . That by itself is proof that BN’s components have been settling at compromise since long ago. There is little hypocrisy involved unlike Pakatan’s relationship which is opportunistic, capitalizing on Anwar’s split with UMNO.
UMNO is a a party of Malays. It is only appropriate that they voice out the fears of the community they represent. Can’t say anything about the Malays who are against them, maybe they are just against UMNO(ABU?) or maybe they have other things at mind, like getting along with their current allies.
You think that Najib’s visit only sows disunity in the Palestine conflict. May I remind you that Najib visit is to the last elected representatives that the Palestinians voted to lead them, granted that elections that should have been held afterwards stalled, but that’s not solely Hamas’s fault. Besides Najib’s visit serves to lend legitimacy to Palestine that just been granted observer state status, and strengthen Malaysia’s support to Palestine that had started long before the Fatah Hamas conflict.
Also, it’s unfair to claim this when Anwar, leader of PKR allied with PAS himself supported the enemies of all Palestine with his own words.
UMNO’s role in inculcating Islamic values is limited to supporting Islamic institutions such as the fatwa councils, syariah courts, islamic banking, and probably the occasional islamic slogan which would be conveniently forgotten when the PM adopting it is out of office. It is necessary since Malays are muslims and Malays are the majority of the country. It’s ridiculous to imply UMNO instructs them all what to allow in and what not. They are not clerics and ulamas. Might as well imply that UMNO instructs courts who to win and lose cases. Come to think of it, you might have that prejudice too.
Now, the problem with PAS. PAS objective has always been the creation of an Islamic state and governed with Islamic laws. We’re talking about the party’s objective, not Islam itself when I mentioned that PAS betrayed itself even by allying with DAP in the first place. By turning a blind eye to DAP’s further insensitivity PAS not only manages to alienate its own followers, but also opens its whole existence up to ridicule. It’s only fitting payback for the insults and hatred that PAS itself has heaped on UMNO and their followers over the years. Even more satisfying that they made it happen themselves. It is unbelievable that PAS let this happen other than for whatever political purposes that they have.
Anyway, sorry for the long thing, I hope you don’t feel like I just want to get the last word or something.
I’d like to put up your comment as a posting too :)
Interesting, isn’t it that we’re given access to other POVs. I mean the scenario has many facets, and it’s not a zero sum game.
One person being right doesn’t negate the other person’s views as wrong. Different views can co-exist or even be complementary despite them coming from opposite sides of the political divide.
Cheers, and thanks for taking the trouble to express yourself.
“Anyway, sorry for the long thing, I hope you don’t feel like I just want to get the last word or something”
Not at all.
I am always happy when people take the time to express their views clearly and in a civil manner. I didn’t think it was long at all. I raised points you countered them.
We obviously disagree but I am glad you responded. Viewpoints should be challenged otherwise it is just groupthink
By all means if you think it would generate interest.
Thanks. I hope it will generate deeper thought :)