Posted in PRU13

But Hindraf, you have declared war on Umno before, bukan?

Hindraf chief P. Waytha Moorthy believes that politicians merely ride on the issues to gain political mileage.

“The poor Indians have seen 12 elections before this and many have voted in many elections believing in the promises of both divide. They are tired and have given up hope on politicians,” he said.


He believes that the underclass could care less who rules or robs the country as it is bread-and-butter issues that are of the greatest concern to them.

“They live on a day-to-day survival mode.”

Waytha is into the 10th day of his hunger strike to highlight the urgent need for a permanent solution to the woes of the marginalized among the Indian community.



What you’ve really wanted to know, asked

20 questions posed to Hindraf chief Waytha:

  • What is the effect of the lifting on the ban on Hindraf?
  • Why would you want to meet the Prime Minister?
  • But you have declared war on Umno before, bukan?
  • Were you angry with Pakatan leaders for not fulfilling their promises?
  • And more …

Till today, however, Najib Razak has not invited Hindraf to meet him. But then again Hindraf is aware that their blueprint expectations are still a great distance from the government’s present policies.

[Updated: It might be better phrased as “the government’s present policies are still a great distance from Hindraf’s blueprint expectations” — 5.33pm]


To read the Q & A in flash, please click url below


I have no Faceook or Twitter.

88 thoughts on “But Hindraf, you have declared war on Umno before, bukan?

  1. Hindraf Leader’s try to be HEROS @ the end got nothing ….serve them right. Orang tamak selalunya RUGI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  2. I am trying to figure out if martyrdom has ever really been an effective agent of change. Complications could arise because Waytha’s health isn’t in the best of shape.

    Although he has said that he will go on this hunger strike untill his body gives out, he may not have that option.

    I would argue that BN throughout it years of systemic discrimination against the disenfrachised of the Indian community declared war first. Hindraf is the logical outcome of such a declaration.

    1. Coincidentally I spoke to Waytha over the phone in the evening on the eve of his hunger strike.

      I’m under the impression that he might seriously weigh the lure of martyrdom. And yes, he will take the hunger strike as far as it can go.

      The method may work in India – need to Google Anna Hazare – b’cos of the culture but in Malaysia it’s not striking the register of the Malays whereas the Chinese (since 85% of them are oppo) are indifferent or hostile. The Scissors has blacked out the news.

      1. First of all, I seriously doubt this Waytha’s sincerity. To me he seems to be interested only in getting a seat so he can get elected and use that as a platform to go around the globe and spew his nonsense.

        I don’t exactly hold his brother Uthaya very high either, he’s just an emotionally unstable and intellectually challenged activist with an inflated sense of self importance. But at least Uthaya is more sincere and honest. BTW both brothers are apparently not on talking terms. Also there is a power struggle among a few people to be recognised as the true leader of Hindraf. Uthaya and Waytha are also competing.

        Hindraf is better off being a NGO rather than sacrifice their principles by kowtowing to the political parties.

        BTW, I am not surprised that his fast is getting scant notice. Imagine for example, Wong Tat goes on a similar fast. Can you imagine the headlines (local and international) that it would make ?

        1. “re: Imagine for example, Wong Tat goes on a similar fast. Can you imagine the headlines (local and international) that it would make?”

          I’m sure The Star will oblige by doing the necessary.

        2. “First of all, I seriously doubt this Waytha’s sincerity. To me he seems to be interested only in getting a seat so he can get elected and use that as a platform to go around the globe and spew his nonsense”

          Getting a seat has got nothing to do with.

          In fact Hindraf is on record as saying that the Blueprint is the main objective and not seat allocation which was just a suggestion by Hindraf to PR as a strategy against MIC.

          Terence Netto’s hatchet job of claiming that the reason the talks with PR broke down was because of seat allocations was proven to be false.

          Furthermore, Hindraf is also on record as saying that they would refine the Blueprint taking into account suggestions (if reasonable) of PR.

          Of course nothing came of it because apparently everyone in PR is too busy looking for the next UMNO financial scandal.

          Did I mention non sequiturs in another reply ? Why, yes I did. Well done Calvin.

          1. Bro, you are wrong. Waytha is indeed looking for seats and this is is not Terence Netto’s spin job (see the link below). Waytha wants seats so he is suggesting that Hindraf to be allowed to contest on Pakatan ticket against MIC.

            What kind of logic is Waytha’s making?. By contesting vs MIC will not make Indian representation stronger. Furthermore why would Hindraf contest on PR tickets when it is crystal clear that PR don’t give a rat’s **** for Hindraf’s Blueprint.


  3. Ahemmm….. Waytha,, please continue with your hunger strike. Personally not many people would give a damn if you died during your hunger strike….the Indians are moving on with their lives, Many have benefited and more will benefit from the govt plans, many more will have the chance for tertiary education etc etc…so please go hungry yourself….new and upcoming faces from MIC are doing just fine even if they re piggy-ridding on PM’s huge popularity… I do see that you are missing the bus/train/ship…whatever laaaa

    1. MIC doing fine ? How can you tell ?

      Indians are moving on with their lives ? Moving on from what ?

    2. yah.. which one does benefit from the govt and which more will benefit from the govt… pls explain.. dont talk shit anak malaysia.

      Indians.. listen.. dont vote for anyone.. just sit at home and watch tv.

  4. Waytha Murthi and his hunger strike is as relevant as his departing Malaysia then returning to join the Pakatan crusade and running on a Pakatan ticket. This too after his community was shafted by Anwar.

    A hunger strike is a form of violence. Self inflicted harm like self immolation, hunger strikes (presumably till death) are all part of the Hindu psyche. (or the sub continental psyche).

    Waytha has been marginalized by his own people for his irrelevance and his incompetence as a self appointed leader. Whatever political capital he mustered and accumulated during the 27 November 2007 demonstrations has been spent and truly wasted.

    All of this smacks of a parochialism that only the Tamil Hindus of certain caste groups understand. It has no currency with the rest of us. And the rest of us include the Chinese, Malays and other Indians of all political persuasions who do not subscribe to such antics.

    A few quotes for Waytha to consider:

    “Martyrdom: The only way a man can become famous without ability”.
    George Bernard Shaw or:

    “Let us all be prepared to die like a martyr. But let no man lust for martyrdom”.

    Mahatma Gandhi.

    Wake up and smell the farts Waytha.

    1. Wow, Bernard Shaw, no less and Gandhi for good measure.

      I love it when a certain type of class conscious Indian alludes to the caste consciousness of another Indian. And of course let’s not forget the “us” rejoinder.

      As in the rest of “us” Chinese, Malays and other Indians who no doubt feel comfortable with the kool aid PR dispenses or the crack pipe BN offers.

      Of course, those who shout “parochialism” the loudest are blind to the parochial politics of every mainstream political party in this country not to mention polices from both alliances which feed this parochialism.

      It is a sick joke that Hindraf is maligned when those who claim to assume the high moral ground when it comes to racial politics are bankrupt of ideas , resort to non sequiturs in lieu of actually addressing Hindraf’s agenda and are drenched in hypocrisy.

      It is immaterial if you and your ilk do not subscribe to such antics that by the way has a tradition far beyond the sub continental (sic) or Hindu psyche.

      If Hindraf manages to galvanize its target audience hopefully, they would prove to be the fly in the ointment of the cretins who practice race politics but hide behind the cover of “us”.

      1. I thought Hindraf had not made any representation to the Malaysian govt. It is the queen of England that they are raising their issue with. Bersabarlah. Tak lama lagi tiap-tiap orang berketurunan India di Malaysia akan dijemput jadi rakyat Queen Elizabeth dan akan mendapat gantirugi berjuta-juta pound.

        1. They did send memos/petitions to the PM (AAB) around the period of 2006-2007 from what I remember.

        2. Like I said in another thread, it was stupid making those 40 acres and a mule type demands more so because it makes it easier for critics to define them in that context.

          But then again PR had its whole Japan war reparations nonsense. I could take a stab at BN but what would be the point.

          However beyond such agitprop, critics find it harder to address the grassroots issues that Hindraf (and HRP) raises and the specific instances of systemic discrimination of both PR and BN as detailed on their websites.

      2. As I said, I have sympathies for Hindraf’s goals but not their approach or their leaders’ style.

        They have no one but themselves to be blamed if many don’t take them seriously. It is easy to ignore the kind of provocations that Hindraf had generated if you sympathetic to their struggle. Just like a Perkasa supporter might wonder why the non Malays view the organization as an extremist NGO.

        Many people will never forgive what Hindraf did back in 2007 and 2008. They had accused the Malays of carrying mass slaughters and ethnic cleansing. They raised the British flag and appealed to the British Queen to save them. They claimed that the Indians were cheated because they were brought to Malaya. They wanted a Tamil Tiger like armed insurgency,etc, etc.

        Of course they have toned down their rhetorics and dropped some of their irrational demands. But the damage have been done. They have antogonised the Malays and BN and then after the GE, got into the bad books of Pakatan too.

        1. “Many people will never forgive what Hindraf did back in 2007 and 2008.”

          You mean BN partisans, right ?

          PR did a bang up job of jumping on the PR bandwagon and then revising history post tsunami.

          I for one was extremely happy that Hindraf managed to galvanize an apathethic Malaysian community too long under the thrall of UMNO/BN.

          Don’t worry too much about the Malays, Calvin. One way or another they will win the numbers game and by that time the only Indians left will be the appeasing kind.

          1. I really do not understand the logic of deriding another race in public and then blame the “derided” community for ignoring the cause(s) of the “derider” – in this day and age of democracy and ICT, shouldn’t the strategy be “to communicate” with all levels of society so as to further one’s cause by winning over the populace?

        2. Calvin, people like you who put the whole society down to the foot of should hang yourself for the comment you had wont listen nor think what people like me says cause arrogant and ego in your brain are larger then you intellectual.

      3. The high moral ground is claimed by Waytha Murthi. If that means Hindraf then it is he who is to blame for it. Race politics is what Waytha advances himself. As long as there is racial identification and profiling there will be the politics of race.

        It requires a little more depth and dimension to take people out of the mindset of race blinkered visions of the world they live in.

        Waythat has like other opposition groups not come out with any policies apart from what he hopes will uplift the Tamils. he calls them the poor marginalized Tamils. As if there are no other marginalized comunities in Malaysia. Thats race politics.

        1. “As if there are no other marginalized comunities in Malaysia. Thats race politics”

          Is there any* political party or alliance in Malaysia that does not practice race politics?

          If Waytha is condemned for propagating, race politics why not anyone else? BN and PR both deal in racialism but only BN is condemned.

          Re: “It requires a little more depth and dimension to take people out of the mindset of race blinkered visions of the world they live in”

          Agreed. This is probably beyond the scope of Hindraf though. What matters is that nobody else seems to be interested in addressing the concerns of the disenfranchised Indians in any meaningful way except Hindraf.

          Is their approach and policies problematic? Of course. However, the first thing to do is admit
          that race is the only game in town and every political party is a player.

          *The exception is probably PSM

    2. Spot on. Waytha is just an opportunist. Hindraf had been motivated by the RSS the Hindu extremist organization that was behind numerous slaughter of Muslims in India. The saffron color and even the emphasis on Hindu as opposed to Indian was calculated to establish a kinship with RSS.

      That’s why during their early days extremists in Indian fully supported Hindraf.

      What Waytha is doing is as clear as day. He’s just trying to copy Anna Hazare. This is nothing about fasting for principles or matyrdom. This is all about cheap publicity….Pathetic….

      1. Calvin, please cite any literature that shows that Hindraf is/was motivated by any Hindu extremist organizations “that were behind numerous slaughter of Muslims in India”.

        If all you are going to do is suck up to the Malay/Muslim readership of this blog, the very least you could do, is cite references to back up your claims.

        1. Conrad, sure I will look for some reference and post it here. Please don’t think I am making these claims to please the Malay Muslim bloc. I am 100% certain of what I had said.

          Please do be informed that I read Tamil and I am fairly well versed in the Indian political and economic scene (as a part of my job requirement as a matter of fact).

          1. Calvin, I apologize. I retract that statement. (Helen, I do not know how things are done here . Do you edit sentences out or let it stand ?)

            I too have spent time in a professional capacity amongst the poor of the Indian community and yes, even amongst the petite bourgeoisie of the MIC.

            I am very well aware of the propaganda that was used pre banning on Hindraf and suddenly the ban was lifted and they were no more a threat.

            I will wait for your cites. Again, I apologize Calvin.

      2. What extremists? Hindraf did meet up with members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, VHP a worldwide Indian lobby group that is highly respected on Capitol Hill and in Westminster. They had nothing to do with any of the slaughter of Muslims in India or eslewhere.

        The Rashtrya Sewak Sangham the other movement you refer to is a national volunteer movement that is built on principles you perhaps do not understand.

        You appear to have as your sources of authority, Tabloids and the old British descriptions of anyone who may have offended them in the past.

        That Nathuram Ghodse was an RSS member does not make every RSS man an assassin any more than suggesting that every Christian is an assassin for what Lee Harvey Oswald did.

      3. Calvin,

        By all mean, fast until death if that is what he wants to do.

        Like any government on this planet, BN is not perfect. But certainly it has never condone or encourage etnic cleansing as accused by Hindraf just when election was around the corner.

        Fasting as an act of protest may strike a chord in India but not in Malaysia. It is an alien concept among Malay Muslim community. In fact it is forbidden for causing physical harm.

        1. “Fasting as an act of protest may strike a chord in India but not in Malaysia”

          Or in America apparently where Muslim prisoners at Gitmo frequently go on hunger strikes

  5. Calvin, theedge article came out after the Netto piece. Again, Hindraf has said that the most important aspect is the Blueprint. Seat allocation is secondary.

    Meaning, if PR signs off on the Blueprint, Hindraf will campaign for PR even without seats. Unless this has changed and if it has Mkini would have had a field day with it.

    So, it would seem you are wrong.

  6. Re: “What kind of logic is Waytha’s making?. By contesting vs MIC will not make Indian representation stronger.”

    If Hindraf replaces the MIC, Indian representation would definetly be stronger. If anything at least the problems of the disenfranchised would be vocalized.

    The middle class Indians would have the comfort of the DAP/Jerusubangites or maybe UMNO.

    Re: “Furthermore why would Hindraf contest on PR tickets when it is crystal clear that PR don’t give a rat’s **** for Hindraf’s Blueprint.”

    Therein lies the rub

    1. I still think it makes no sense for Hindraf to contest vs MIC. I can agree with you that Hindraf is more assertive (or extreme, depends on how you view it) than MIC. But how would it help unless they also have the parliamentary majority to push the necessary reforms and laws?

      You don’t need a political platform to vocalize your concerns. The parliament is a law making body and not a soap box for people to make statements or engage in rhetorics. Hindraf seems to confuse the function of parliament with press conference.

      Even if Hindraf wants a more assertive platform, why don’t they target MIC in specific? Why not replace PR’s Indian candidates or contest in mixed areas so the overall Indian representations increases ?

      This, sadly, reminds me of and validates the oft-cited reason for Indians’ backwardness – that Indians tend to undermine their own kinds while it is the opposite with the Chinese.

      To me, Hindraf should offer the Indian middle-grounders (like yourself perhaps), an option. By skillfully playing the card, Hindraf should able to extract concessions from both sides. You can see that Najib is actually reaching out to Indians far more than any PM in the history. If Hindraf is smart, they can use this opportunity to start a dialogue with him.

      But for some unknown reasons they keep wooing Pakatan despite being throughly used and abused for the last 5 years after 2008. They have not learnt the lesson of 2008 where they threw the support behind PR only to be trodded upon after that. Even if PR supports Hindraf’s Blueprint, what guarantee they will honour it ? This is why I say Hindraf is not being very smart with their political strategy.

      One more thing we need to be cautious of on who really represent Hindraf ? Utaya, Waytha, Makkal Sakthi, Indraf, etc,etc. All of them have diametrically opposite approach.

      For me, I don’t buy the fact that Waytha is Hindraf’s true leader or represent the true spirit of 2007. I would grant that to Uthaya, despite all his goofiness, dramatics and irrationality.

      1. Re: “But how would it help unless they also have the parliamentary majority to push the necessary reforms and laws?”

        By this logic, Indians should have no representation in Parliament
        since they could never form a majority. Which would make the MIC redundant, right?

        Samy Vellu post 08’ admitted that UMNO never paid any attention to the MIC, not that they did anything worth paying attention to.

        And maybe that’s the point.

        Re: “The parliament is a law making body and not a soap box for people to make statements or engage in rhetorics.”

        Parliament is more than just a legislative body. It also is an
        investigative body, setting policy etc. Even in its redundancy, the MIC held a ministerial post that would have been the perfect opportunity to contribute policy ides etc.

        Furthermore, debate is a healthy expression of a vibrant democracy something which is sometimes lacking in Parliament.

        Look at the “rhetoric” of Dr. Jeyakumar’s speeches and tell me you did not learn something new or discover a different perspective.

        Re: “….why don’t they target MIC”

        Because they want to part of the alternative alliance and part of the possible change of Regime. I could justify the continued existence of UMNO and the MCA but for the life of my cannot say the same of the MIC.

        Re: “If Hindraf is smart, they can use this opportunity to start a dialogue with him.”

        Which is one of the reasons why they should contest and replace the MIC. Being in the opposition should not mean never ever working with the Federal government or in this case UMNO. PSM does a far better job with engagement than say, the DAP. Hindraf should follow the same model. Bi partisanship could me a culture that Hindraf introduces to the alternative front.

        Re: Even if PR supports Hindraf’s Blueprint, what guarantee they will honour it ? This is why I say Hindraf is not being very smart with their political strategy.

        It seems to me you want to make a case for Hindraf to step in line with BN. As I said, they want to be part of the movement of change and in my opinion can bring substance where there is none. You seem to want to retain the MIC and relegating Hindraf to useless pressure group status.

        Re: “One more thing we need to be cautious of on who really represent Hindraf ? Utaya, Waytha, Makkal Sakthi, Indraf, etc,etc. All of them have diametrically opposite approach.”

        The only two of importance is Hindraf and the HRP. I would argue that the former is the most important. The rest are just background noise that is rarely heard from anyway.

        If Uthaya manages to run on a PAS ticket, the dynamics would be even more interesting and beneficial to the disenfranchised of the Indian community.

        Re: For me, I don’t buy the fact that Waytha is Hindraf’s true l
        eader or represent the true spirit of 2007. I would grant that to Uthaya, despite all his goofiness, dramatics and irrationality.

        Dramatics and irrationality it would seem defines Malaysian politics.

  7. Calvin,

    Re: Links. I am aware of the polemics of HRP/Hindraf against the Malaysian goverment.

    But where exactly is the evidence that Hindraf was motivated by Hindu extremist organizations “that were behind numerous slaughter of Muslims in India”. ?

    Could you link to those ?

    1. Here you go,

      “Hindraf’s political party and human rights movement linkage will be in the similar mould like India’s Barathiya Janata Party (BJP), Rashtriya Sivam Sewak (RSS) and Viswa Hindu Parishad (VHP). Most BJP political leaders are derived from the ranks of RSS and VHP leaders. With RSS and VHP as pressure groups, BJP has emerged as a disciplined, strong, dynamic and progressive political force in India”.

      Also FYI, Waytha is the Malaysian rep for VHP that Hindu fascist organization. He also been involved with so may other extremists Hindu groups in the UK and the US.

      1. Yes, I thought you would reference those groups. Doesn’t it strike
        you as odd that its right there on the Hindraf website? Those are right wing groups which some would argue UMNO is (esp. when it comes to its rhetoric on race and privilege) or the Republican Party in the United States.

        And as far a right wing pressure groups go would you consider RT, who said that Non Malays should be forcibly converted, as something akin to the right wing pressure groups that you mentioned?

        grkumar laid it out pretty well but I would just add that the BJP is currently courted by the EU and America – esp. Narrenda Modi the controversial figure in the Gujarat violence. Not surprisng since they are the most influential opposition party in India.

        Now, kindly elaborate how those groups were “behind the numerous slaughter of Muslims in India”? Specific examples would be welcomed, since you have a tendency to generalize and attribute negative characteristics to Waytha who you seem to hate.

        And please show me in any of Hindraf’s polemic where they have advocated the use of violence for their cause.

        If you say that Waytha was involved in, “so many other extremist groups in the UK – examples would be nice – why was he let back into the country? Why was the ban on Hindraf lifted?

        I know there is a watch list of extremist groups that Malaysia observes, where any of these groups that Waytha was pally with on it?

        Calvin, if you are going to throw around the word “fascist” and “extremist” you better be damn sure that the same does not apply to political parties here in Malaysia or that the alliances you advocate for is exempt from such descriptions.

  8. Dear Helen, how did you expect the comments to be? The Malays won’t come forward and say anything because they are quite reticent when it involves element of truth. That is their nature.

    If you notice, it is purely character assassination with half baked knowledge from some of the commentors which I presume are Indians. We don’t need to be rocket scientist to know it.

    Nothing pertinent has been discussed on the Q&A or to rebutt it, just the typical blah!!! blah!!! Blah!!!, I know it, all I have done it all just by sitting and typing behind the keyboard.

    I thank you for your effort with your sincerity to chore up for a rightful and just cause like HINDRAF.

    For those commentors who fail to argue on the essence of the Q &A but rather tangent it on personal bullshit, I only have to say this, there is no greater joy to be conscious of sincerity without self-examination.

    This maybe too much for your commentors but what the hell, after all they can be or do is only by sitting behind the computer and write whatever they like without any worthwhile tangible contribution that could change for the community.

    1. You don’t get the message do you? I have no problem with the objectives of Hindraf but I do have a major issue with their leadership or confrontational stance.

      1. Calviin, you say ” I have no problem with the objectives of Hindraf but I do have a major issue with their leadership or confrontational stance. ”

        Am I talking gibbesh Calvin. There is only two things that matter truth and charity. Seriously who the f**k cares what it matter to you as you have done nothing.

        Did you create the change or be part of the change unless it serves you? Did you do anything besides gloating like you know it all. You mean nothing just another commentor to fill your own bread and butter, That is all you are. Take your bullshit elsewhere because it is difficult to revere fools like you from the chain that revere for themselves.. .

      2. Calvin, I must apologize for my outburst. You have a right to voice your opinion even though how silly it may sound.You, me and rest form the pack as Malaysians have done nothing but only how it is self servicing. Malaysians do not need to be a hounding dog when we cannot recognize the truth and reality that transpires for fellow Malaysians irrespective of our race, religion or creed. It is a Malaysian agenda when truth and reality surfaces.

        1. MiNY, there is no need to apologize. I do respect your stance and understand the rationale and reasons behind them though I might not agree with them. I hope you recognize the fact that I am as passionate as you are in helping Malaysian Indians to progress while as the same time wanting them to be a part of this nation.

          Our aims are the same though the apporoach might differ. I am no keyboard warrior for I was and still is involved in social work (albeit in a smaller scale these days due to my business travels).

          Let’s debate vigorously and heatedly if needed, as long as it is good spirit.

          Helen has been gracious to provide us with this platform and been very accomodating host. Her blog is different from others as it more civilised and thought provoking than most of the Malaysian blogs out there.

    2. “The Malays won’t come forward and say anything because they are quite reticent when it involves element of truth. That is their nature.”

      What exactly are you saying? Could you elaborate on this?

      1. SOG, what I mean is or trying to say is they are generally passive, polite, patient and don’t have the habit of jaga tepi kain orang lain, not busy body unless they are pushed to the brink. I actually meant it as a compliment based on my own experience of growing up in the kampong.

  9. MYQ, the problem with communication to all levels of society is that the medium[s] are controlled by vested interest, partisanship makes open and honest communication nearly impossible and sometimes both the messenger and the message are willfully conflated because it is easier to dismiss when other agendas take precedence.

    Having said that, Is Hindraf not articulating its message well? Maybe, but when discussions about Hindraf nearly always revolve around justifying its existence, instead of its policies, is it any wonder that there are so many misconceptions about Hindraf.

    1. re: “when discussions about Hindraf nearly always revolve around justifying its existence, instead of its policies”

      thanks for putting your finger on it

    2. Conrad,

      “…there is misconception about Hindraf…”

      hmnnnn. I am not so sure about it. The truth is the other way around. Hindraf in fact has misconceptions on many issues. As an example, vast majority of Malays find Hindraf assertion that the govt( meaning UMNO) is conducting etnic cleansing the way carnage unfold in Bosnia and Rwanda or Palestine as an insult.

      Hindraf still does not realise that confrontational way will not bring any positive changes. By all mean, voice legitimate concerns, not “fitnah”.

      And do not be mistaken graciousness with being timid. Just because the response among Malays best described as muted does not mean they do not care.

      1. Shamsul, thanks for pursuing this point. As I have always
        maintained, Hindraf’s polemics are problematic on various levels.

        This is best expressed by the Wikileaks cable concerning Malaysia”

        The relevant bit is this:

        “By provoking a national conversation over the status of Indians in Malaysia, Hindraf has accomplished what MIC has long failed to achieve, but the potential backlash to Hindraf’s tactics also could set back efforts to achieve racial equality,” read the cable.

        While noting that the rally had provoked resentment among certain Malay quarters and calls for “Malay street demonstrations to reiterate Malay supremacy” the blame, it said, lay in the government’s tough stand and heavy handed action against Hindraf, it said could backfire on the BN.”

        However, I do think that dodgy polemics are not confined only to Hindraf. Mahathir has said that if the Opposition wins the “Malays
        would be beggars on their own lands” and as I mentioned earlier the hard line right wing mouthpieces of UMNO as personified by the likes of RT have said much worse. RT for examples quotes Mein Kampf in relation to the Chinese.

        Some people have described Mahathir’s Operasi Isi Penuh as a racial genocide of the civil service when it comes to Non Malays, but there are academics who wrote about this deliberate policy of racial reengineering without the theatrics.

        The test I think, is there is a refinement in the polemics. I think there has been with Hindraf. All political parties in Malaysia unfortunately have this tendency to “exaggerate” their racial
        preoccupations because appeals to emotion is the most effective method of garnering support.

        1. Conrad,

          Exactly who among Malays who calls for “…Malay street demonstrations…”

          Since when Malays talk about “Malay supremacy”? Just because UMNO earns the mandate to rule the country does not make Malays racists . .

          Hindraf did provoke. Only it is successful in Making Malays and indian to further separated.

          1. Re: “Who among the Malays calls for street demos”

            You want names of Malay politicians?

            Re: Earning mandate and racism?

            True, earning a mandate does not make a racist. Racialist policies makes one a racists or racialist. The term has an Alice in Wonderland quality about it here in Malaysia.

            Re: Hindraf provoking

            Provoke what exactly? If you do not see the marginalization of the disenfranchised Indians in the Malaysia, no evidence I cite will convince you.

            And for the record, Indians and Malays were already separated, at least the vast majority of them.

          2. Conrad, no offence to Shamshul but I can’t judge his protruded virtual intelligence. How did PERKASA come about kinda sums up the equation when it is politically expedient even when the majority was and are enjoying a majority based affirmative action. One of the kind in the world. A simple fact will be, how a progressive and assuaging community like the Malaysian Indians in the 60, 70 and 80 have regressed and digressed when policies are a one way street without any allowances to seek the truth and reality .

            Education does not rely solely on books and theories but rather the experience and consciousness that each of us experience with each other with for what is just and fair. An argument by Shamsul is child like because if it was just and fair, you don’t need HINDRAF nor PERKASA to rise. I don’t think anybody provokes anyone until and when there is no other resort to enlighten another for the more humane causes at large for the community rather than when you are ready to accept it with a obiter dictum that how I can continue to jaga my buntut.

    3. One may have a case, a valid case even but one also can shoot oneself in the foot. Bad things can happen to good people.

      You don’t burn bridges and use it especially when the chasm was created by a third party and the bridge by the second. And, Servant of God, the Malays know how to say a lot without saying anything when another word becomes superfluous. Verbal diarrhea has a tendency to reverse empathy to just sympathy.

      1. Salhas, I am in the mood. Can you please elaborate on your statement whether its presumptuous for what you think, what you know, what you think you know, how you see it without any participation or the reality on the ground when it arises, because your statement seem to hinge without being screwed to fix the problem nor finding a solution if there is a problem for fellow Malaysians. We all have been lalang long enough for self sufficient reasons. This does not need politics, I know it all or this is how it is, but rather is it fair and just having dealt with a imbibed multicultural Malaysians.

        1. MINY, originally my last sentence would have read: Unfortunately a certain section of the Malaysian community had been suffering from verbal diarrhea. But the Malay in me and my upbringing could not bring myself to fall into that unsavoury gutter. As for efforts to fix ‘the problem’ I think Hindraf itself knew how to go about it but opted for a tumultuous route.

          1. Fair comment for you as a Malay facing such verbal diarrhea not politically or in the socio-economic development as a whole. Imagine the frustration for the real like state of the displaced Malaysian Indians. Have a peep at this, then tell me whether the route is tumultuous or their life is tumultuous as fellow Malaysians?

            If you have a better solution as a fellow caring Malaysian do suggest, what ways can the life and predicament of the fellow Malaysian Indians be uplifted from their perpetual doldrums at least for the sake of humanity when politically the Malay controls as economically the Chinese does.

            Unless of course, you want your fellow Malaysian Indians just sit quietly and take what ever crumbs thrown to them like how it has been for the last 56 years. I thank you for your comment and hope you understand the situation better than what it is in reality.

    4. Hi Conrad, Sorry for the late response. Agree with you that all media has vested interest – its true in the US, UK, Europe, Japan, China, Singapore and thus Malaysia thus nothing new here as everything gets manipulated anyway.

      On whether Hindraf is articulating its message well or not – alas, first impression counts and Hindraf’s allegations of Malays-led genocide had made a deep impact on the Malay psyche in that most Malays, that I know of anyway, felt very hurt by the allegations and had tuned Hindraf out of their radar … in short, most Malays simply ignore Hindraf

      Well, the next question is until when will the Malays as a community continue to ignore Hindraf – I do not have the answer but what I can say is that its in the Malay culture to not “react” – we may not say anything, we may not do anything but we still can feel something and, in such circumstances, the Malays, being the aggrieved party, expect the agressor to apologise and accordingly demonstrate sincere action etc to win back the Malay’s trust

      One may argue until the cows come home that Hindraf is the aggrieved party etc etc etc but in this case, what is important is the PERCEIVED feeling in the Malay Community that Hindraf has hurt the Malay community and thus Hindraf need to make the first move to mend the bridge and earn the trust of the Malay community – unless and until this is done, Hindraf will continue to be ignored by the Malays.

      Whether Hindraf realise it or not, the ball is in Hindraf’s court … Over to you

      1. re: “its in the Malay culture to not ‘react’ – we may not say anything, we may not do anything but we still can feel something”

        Can you relate the effect of this reticence vis-a-vis the ceaseless Malay-bashing and what is the internal Malay temperature now?

        1. IMHO, the birth of Malay NGOs such as Perkasa etc etc etc and being more selective in voting of elected representatives – no longer MCA and MIC automatically has the votes of UMNO supporters

          1. Thanks for making the connections explicit. Sometimes the thing is straightforward and staring us in the face but still requires sharp communicators to put it across in such a simple way that everybody can see clearly for themselves.

      2. Re: Over to you

        First off, thanks for the reply, MYQ. And I would just like to make it clear, that I am not a card carrying member of Hindraf and indeed I think Hindraf would not exactly be enthusiastic about some of my suggestions or my criticisms of them. I am just an ordinary advocate of their cause.

        Re: Hindraf getting its message across and Malays ignoring Hindraf

        Well I have discussed the “genocide” exaggeration already but I think beyond that they do not seem to be getting their message across to anyone well, not only the Malays. However I do think that we need to make a distinction between people and political parties that represent them especially here in Malaysia where race based politics is mainstream.

        In this case for instance although popular support is necessary and something Hindraf had during the 08’ tsunami, what is important is if Hindraf can get the attention of the ruling elites, namely the power brokers of UMNO or PR.

        Now it would be easy for me to question the agenda of the PM wanting to meet Hindraf but for the purposes of this response all that is relevant is that Hindraf has managed to engage the powers that be.

        If Hindraf is simpatico with UMNO, those Malays who support UMNO will fall into line regardless of their hurt feelings. This has always been one of the benefits of the so-called racial formula.
        Unlike say the supporters of the Opposition who froth at the mouth that Hindraf is going to meet the PM of this country when Chinese education groups have done the same, without receiving the same amount of rancor from Opposition supporters.

        Re: Regaining trust

        This again goes back to the realpolitik of Malaysia. Hindraf will regain trust if it is a productive member of either coalition depending on which side the Malay in question favors. In other words, there will always be some Malays who will never trust Hindraf.

        UMNO has said things about the Non Malays but it is my gut feeling, that if there is genuine reform within BN and they
        disseminate their propaganda well, people will naturally return to the fold and forget about the “bad” things UMNO has said or done throughout its reign.

        1. Hi Conrad – Noted re card carrying member et al … I am also not a card carrying member of either UMNO or PAS or PKR.

          I agree with you that people should be issue centric and that one should not reject the message for the messenger but such an ideal situation is just that – ideal and is not achieved anywhere in the world as we are all human …

          On DS Najib’s motives on meeting Hindraf – only he knows but I personally hope that something good will come out of it for the Malaysian Indian community as this will have a long term positive effect on Malaysia.

          On getting on the right side of the Malay community, I do not think the political route is the one and only option for Hindraf – other options include being more “friendly” with the other communities in public forums and adopting a less confrontational approach when espousing views such not blaming others etc … At the individual level, its leaders should involve themselves in more community events such as Hari Raya and Chinese New Year Open House, Hari Gawai and Hari Keamatan etc so as to show that Hindraf leaders are as Malaysian as all other Malaysians and that Hindraf is one of many NGOs in Malaysia … To me, not taking the political route will be better for Hindraf as this will allow Hindraf to work with both sides of the political divide

          On UMNO, agree with you that there are room for improvements but the other BN members also need to stand up and be counted and accordingly regain the trust and endorsement of their respective communities – to blame everything only on UMNO is not only unfair but too simplistic, to say the least

          1. MYQ, there is much agree with in your post. It is a well thought out reply and a reasonable alternative perspective to my (hopefully) reasonable viewpoint.

            Thanks for the exchange. From a very young age I was thought that our ideas should be challenged because if they are not they merely become flights of fancy.


  10. Apropos nothing but is it just me but whenever Chinese liberals* talk of the “Indian problem” they always some how relate it back to the “caste issue”, the tonic of which is the so called secular democracy of the DAP, the proof of which has many more Indian reps ?

    *I don’t really like that word since “progressive” they are not……

    1. Yes, they deflect the blame back to the Indian themselves so that the so-called ‘liberal’ Chinese needn’t then lift a finger to help alleviate the problem.

      Same as with saying that there are poor Malays, poor Chinese and poor other races too — tar them all with the same brush. This being said, the specific poor Indian problems like Displaced Estate Workers will consequently fail to get any particular attention. They become another part of the masses of the faceless ‘poor’ out there.

      Like The Jerusubang Star‘s 229-word article exemplar on the almost 45,000 mass of poor families.

      After which the ‘liberal’ Chinese Jerusubang cheerleader delivers his coup de grace, “Hindraf is racist”.

  11. Malaysia in New York,

    The one calling street demonstrations was not doing that for Malay supremacy. He (Anwar) with PAS “tumpang sekaki” encouraged street demonstration simply for his political gain.

    Everybody knows it has nothing to do with Malay supremacy. And on the term” Malay supremacy”, what about it.

    UMNO does not mention it or claim it as It already achieves paramount position among Malay political arena. UMNO however does talk about Malay legitimate concerns. It does talk on Malay controlling politics. Nothing wrong about it as all Malays realise (irregardless of political inclination) the only thing that stops DAP “dynastic Chinese centric” political manouvre is UMNO.

    Of course, there are quite a number of Malay politicians are willing to sell their souls or even selling islam for Chinese votes.

    If Chinese have Dong Zong or what, what is wrong for Malays to have Perkasa? MINY may not aware that Malays view this DZ as racist. I feel the same.

    This racist group does not even want non Chinese teachers in Chinese schools. Is that not racism? MINY, what would Governor of New York says if say an organisation insists that all teachers in a school in New York must be proficient in Mandarin or Spanish?

    The Governor may just say that well if you are not willing to mingle with all races (where the de facto language of that place is English), why just not “berambus”.

    The problem with MINY or Conrad (from Malay viewpoint) is that they tend to view whatever Malay concerns as racism. If you can tolerate DZ that is clearly racist, what is wrong in tolerating Perkasa that never calls for right of non Malays to be threatened.

    AS FOR Hindraf, saying the govt (meaning Malay led Govt) conducting etnic genocide definitely provokes the Malays.

    1. “The problem with MINY or Conrad (from Malay viewpoint) is that they tend to view whatever Malay concerns as racism. If you can tolerate DZ that is clearly racist, what is wrong in tolerating Perkasa that never calls for right of non-Malays to be threatened.”

      This is the problem with identity politics. First off, Shamsul, could you please cite any posts of mine where I said that anything that concerns Malay rights as racist?

      Secondly, I have been specific that my support of Hindraf is based on the fact that they are being denied a seat on the racial table because they politics (oppositional) is considered racist when nothing in BN or PR shows anything other than race based politics.

      In fact as far as far as the term racist is concerned I have defined it as an ideology that seeks to exclude from political/social participation (within a Malaysian race based context) rather than an defining it in any egalitarian framework.

      Re: UMNO controlling Malay politics and Malay supremacy

      The problem with this thinking is that UMNO only thinks that they can control Malay politics because of the Chinese DAP threat. Well actually, the problem with this is that it shows the farce of the whole race based power sharing formula, but that is a discussion for another time.

      UMNO conflates its hegemony with Malay hegemony.
      If the Malays gave a mandate to PR, PAS and PRK would be the dominant Malay parties and as I have argued before, this would ensure that the so-called yellow peril of the DAP is kept in checked.

      Therefore, it is not really a question of the Malays dominating politics. In the end because the Non Malays are losing the numbers game, the Malays will always be in control of the politics in this country.

      However, Malay supremacy goes far beyond this. It is reflective in State policy as well. Someone like former Higher Education Minister Shafie Salleh, for example, saying that UiTM would remain a Bumiputra only establishment is an example of Malay supremacy.

      Now for the purpose of clarity, could you point me to any Hindraf proposal that seeks to exclude participation of any race? Their demand for quotas is an example of inclusivity.

      Re: Malays calling for street demos

      AI is not the only Malay calling for street demos. The cow head protestors walked the talked but endorsed by UMNO. Here were a group who were later charged with sedition (if I recall correctly) but had the comfort of sitting with a sympathetic Home Minister.

      KJ had a counter demo during one of the BERSIH rallies and carried out his own State approved demos outside the US embassy concerning the Palestinian situation. This last part is pretty hypocritical since it was KJ who claimed that you needn’t hold “public demos” and instead hold them in stadiums. Then why protest in front of the US embassy?

      The list of pro Establishment sanctioned demos, does unfortunately go on, Shamsul.

      Re : Chinese education.

      I am not in favor of Chinese/Indian education and I would add Islamic education as a means of transmitting “culture” which is what these establishments do. I do think that these schools offer many positive contributions to an educational system that could be absorbed into our National Education policy.

      If you want your Chinese/Indian/Religious schools, you should fund it privately. But of course this is also a topic for another time.

      1. Conrad, I have been seesawing with Shamsul from day 1 when Helen started the blog. Like you first para, there not an iota of my comment depicts the Malay as racist, but more skewed towards politics and policies that continues to be lopsided without addressing natural humane problems for a certain segment of the Indian community which forms bulk of them.

        I have argued enough and brought forward enough justification in the past that I feel it becomes redundant after awhile with Shamsul as he brings nothing fresh to the table to enhance the truth or reality but repeats the same thing. I don’t feel offended with Shamsul, nor his comments as they say you can bring the horse to the water but you can’t make it drink to enlighten itself for the truth and reality.

        1. Just to shift this discussion, MiNY. What do you think of Hindraf meeting with the PM to discuss the Blueprint ?

          1. I think it is very welcomed where the PM can hear it direct from the very people who represent the down trodden one unlike hearing it from the apple polishing Indian based coalition partners like MIC, PPP, MMSP, AMIPF,etc. These other buggers have only been filling their own pockets without bring to light the genuine problems of the poorer segment of the Indians.

            To be fair to UMNO, they have made the necessary allocations for the other parties to take care of their people and have requested them to provide the feed back, but nonetheless these buggers would say everything is okay as long as they can stick it into their pockets and maintain their power. So in actual fact, I will not lay all faults on UMNO’s foot as the coalition partners are equally responsible.

            The only problem is sometimes, the advisors of the upper echelon of UMNO still depends on their political partners rather than dealing directly. Let me give you an example, Parti Makkal Sakti Malaysia under the traitor Thanenthiran. He was brought into the attention of Najib through several power brokers within MIC. Najib just took it for granted without knowing that this guy was just an opportunist not the actual leader of HINDRAF.

            The genuine HINDRAF leadership had been approached by these Indian power brokers, yet they refused to meet them but insisted that any dealing needs to be direct with the decision makers- Najib / Anwar.

            Najib, being the premier naturally delegate through the coalition partners to bring uniformity for the people but unfortunately he realized that it was not working anymore therefore he has gone to the ground directly to engage the aggrieved communities. In this sense I must say that UMNO has evolved but not the coalition partners.

            I am not sure what the outcome will be, but in hindsight at least the premier gets to hear the issues on firsthand basis besides depending on his nonchalant political partners on the gravity of the problem.

            Many may condemn HNDRAF as a traitor bearing the past events between UMNO and HINDRAF,but the grass root Indians do also realize that UMNO has evolved or are trying to evolve on its own without depending on their coalition partners but engaging the real stakeholders of the Indian grassroot community as seen in this instance.

            I don’t think the grassroot is worried whether it BN/PR, but rather who can come forward to solve the issues to restore their position as fellow Malaysians in equal footing without infringing into the interest of the other communities.

        2. MINY,

          Again as I repeated earlier, I have no problem with various communities voicing legitimate concerns. But when Hindraf said that UMNO encourages etnic genocide, the Malays were upset then.

          Of course, you would not feel offended. You will be offended if your race is accused of conducting etniq genocide the way we see what terrible thing done in Rwanda, Palestine or Bosnia.

          The reality is that you refuse to realise just like non Malays , Malays too have legitimate concerns. And they air these concerns to the party that matters:UMNO. Yes. The party that have power to do something.

          But again, for you for UMNO to address Malay concerns is already racism

          1. Please show me where have I condemned the Malays and questioned legitimate Malay concerns? As I said earlier, my arguments are skewed towards politics and policies that continues to be lopsided without addressing natural humane problems for a certain poorer segment of the Indian community which forms bulk of them. Shamshul, please grow uplah Malaysian.

      2. Vernacular language based education is different from Religious education … The SJK / SMJK is an alternative to SK/SMK while, For Muslims – SAR is merely complementary to SK/SMK

        1. I don’t know if this is a response to one of my post, but as I argued on another thread this distinction is merely a semantic one. Both transmit culture which is often detrimental to a national identity.

          Culture is the responsibility of parents not the State, which should as far as possible transmit ideas of inclusivity.

          1. Its only semantic if SAR is an alternative to SK/SMK … as is this is not the case. Maybe you are referring to certain private schools which incorporate Islamic curriculum in their syllabus – if this is the case, yes its an alternative to SK/SMK but to “ban” such schools entails the abolishment of all types of private schools in Malaysia including the Alice Smiths, Fairfields, Sri Cempakas, Kolej Yayasan Saads etc, no?

      3. Conrad,

        UMNO earns its hegemony through election. It is pure mathematics. You get the lion share of the largest etnic group and you earn the dominant position.

        It is not a sin to achieve supremacy when it comes to position. You earn by winning the election. Nobody is stopping DAP to achieve paramount position in Malaysian politics. Just upstage UMNO.

        UMNO does not control the Malay politics. It is by large the most trusted brand among the Malays when it comes to Malay politics. Its offer are regarded as more palatable to the Malays. Especially when Malays see Anwar as having too ‘many personal problems” or with PAS “kowtowing” to DAP.

        But of course, a Malay political party that occupies the dominant seat is bad as it is a Malay based party. The only “good” Malay based party is it submit to DAP for some people.

        Why on earth Malays should trust DAP when everybody knows is a family based business, that interests centres on “lim dynasty”. That even can’t held a decent poll to choose 20 CEC from 1800 odd delegates. Worse still, only token representation from non Chinese.

        Weird Is it not? You did not mention anything about Chinese supremacy here? But of course, it is not a sin for Chinese to dominate say economic sector. But a sin for Malays to dominate politics even by winning the election.

        Now. That is racism.

        1. Re: UMNO hegemony and ethnic mathematics


          Re: “It’s not a sin achieving supremac”

          Depends on what you mean by “supremacy”. I understand
          what you are saying but in a racial context, supremacy is
          always a sin. Would you consider White Supremacy a sin?

          Many people compare UMNO’s policies to a kind of apartheid. This is total nonsense, however racial politics is a messy business and in the end, not many people would make a distinction between the racialist and supremacists. Most days I do not.

          Re: UMNO most trusted brand

          This is partisan rhetoric. The partisan flip side is that the Non Malays who support PR believe that the Non Malays through the MCA and MIC have been kowtowing to UMNO.

          This is perhaps the main problem with the racial formula. Grievances are based on race and not ideology. You can never give too much or too little to satisfy diverse racial groupings.

          Re: The only good Malay party

          Again partisan rhetoric. I do not know where you get the idea that I subscribe to this “good Malay” meme. Look through some of my other comments and you would realize that this is something I reject.

          Having said that, the reason why UMNO gets a lot of flak in terms of its Malay identity is that it has positioned itself as the champion of the “Malay race”. As you said, the most trusted brands, remember?

          Btw, long before the whole muhibbah BS of PR, PAS a Malay Islamic party was critical of UMNO’s religious and cultural identity. This “submitting to the DAP” is a post 08’ phenomenon. The subaltern histories of Malaysia are littered with examples of the Malay polity chaffing under UMNO hegemony.

          Re: Why on earth should Malays trust the DAP?

          Why indeed should anyone trust the DAP. In fact my stance is, why on earth should anyone trust any political party?

          Re: Chinese supremacy

          Shamshul, look through some of my comments. I argued that the Chinese controlled private sector is rife with racism. I heaped scorn on the Chinese DAP on this very thread.

          I rejoice when Helen successfully trolls the apparatchiks and kool aid drinkers. But most important I have defined racial relations as dominated between Malay and Chinese interests.

          In fact some would argue that I have been giving UMNO a free pass and concentrating solely on the DAP.

  12. Conrad,

    Contrary to your perception, I am not idolising UMNO. Like any other parties, it has its fair share of weaknesses. Which party does not have weaknesses anyway.

    What i am trying to say with regards to Malay community is that there are limited choice for them. The only other Malay political party is PAS. PAS has a sizable followers too but nowhere near to UMNO. And unfortunately, its image takes a beating as Malays are uncomfortable with PAS seemingly over submitting to DAP.

    PKR is about Anwar only. DAP as everyone knows is about Lim dynasty only.

    As for MCA and gerakan or MIC, they do not have the clout the way UMNO has. The limited clout is partly due to smaller size of chinese and indian communities. as compared to percentage of malay voters.

    As long as MCA say refuses to confront DAP upfront, then Chinese will have a false impression that they alone can dictate the terms to the Govt(meaning malay led govt). In crude language, they may end up voting themselves out of the government.

    1. Shamsul,

      I think we have wondered off topic a bit. I do not think you idolize UMNO. Thanks for taking the time to articulate your perspective on UMNO and the Malay community.

      As I said, I understand where you are coming from and I do sympathize with the fact that the racial formula is hard to defend, without sounding like a racist.

      If it is any consolation, I am advocating the same thing, since the alternative alliance I lean to have so far offered no alternative to the current system.

  13. MYQ, Re: Religious schools

    Although you raise a credible point in your rejection of my semantic contention, the reality is that funding for these types of schools is derived from government coffers. In fact, I would argue that Chinese/Indian schools are an alternative to mainstream school system and have become mainstream in their own right. In this context, I think it does boil down to semantics.

    At the heart of my argument is that these types of schools do not promote an inclusive mindset. I cannot recall which ministry said it but there are numerous religious schools operating off the grid, promoting their own “values” which is at odds with the concept of a national identity.

    The State should have no part in funding institutes that transmit cultures that are detrimental to the idea of a national identity. As I mentioned on another thread, the Opposition too gets into the action with large funding to these types of religious establishments as evidence of their commitment to the Malay community.

    This is wrong on so many levels.

  14. Here is a blunt warning Hindu extrimists, try bringing your RSS/BJP/VHP agenda into Malaysia, or attempt to destroy the Malays or the Malaysian King’s authority, a combined Muslim-Christian force will deal with Hindu extrimists. Everyone knows what RSS BJP VHP is, many ignorant Chinese don’t. They are responsible for killing Christians and Muslims in India. Go there to their national offices, and ask about Hindraf, and also ask what their opinion towards Christian and Islam religions is. RSS is a well known extrimist organization in India, with blood of several nuns and pastors, and churches in their hands. Try that rubbish in Malaysia, entire Pakistani and middle eastern communities in Malaysia will put an end to the tolerance we have had for murderers like you. Don’t start another race riots as you did in India killing Muslims and Christians there. Saffron color wearing terrorists. In Malaysia you can get away with such things, because Malays are tolerant people, try doing your rubbish in Iraq or Pakistan or Iran or Saudi, and see how far you get.

  15. If our communities come under threat from Hindu extremists, we will deal with it. Many Chinese are getting very sympathetic to Hindu extremists as well. Don’t start instigating massive conflict between ethnic groups in Malaysia by your support to extremist Hindu organizations if you are sincere in uplifting all poor Malaysians, then stop this useless “Hindu-ethnic” movements and work towards a proper system keeping in mind the majority values of Malaysia. Its not just the Malays, you will be dealing with Pakistanis, Iranians, Arabs and many other groups in this nation that will not tolerate Hindu extremism. Many Indians themselves have heard and witnessed these links, the proof lies in the multiple eye witnesses to these people.

    Which Hindu extremist will go around boasting in public, “we have ties with Indian Hindu extremist organization”. Are you intelligent enough to even figure that out ? These people conceal these facts. The other people who are knowledgeable about this is not. As far as the joker above is concerned who defended the RSS organization, that clearly shows this Hindu facist is in this forum trying to “defend” RSS, which even many secular Hindu intellectuals have condemned. RSS was behind the killings of several Christians and Muslims throughout India. They actively want to ban Christianity and Islam out, there is thousands of books and videos made about them, stop being lazy , go read those books or go to India and directly talk to their organizations undercover.

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