By Conrad
Reply to Calvin Sankaran # 11
I’ll dive into your points starting with :
(2) Comparisons with the US experience is problematic, as I have pointed out numerous times. The African American community is statistically the most successful of the African diaspora in the world. You are wrong when you say that no one accuses the American government of marginalizing the African American, Native American etc.
There has been widespread criticisms against the penal system, the judiciary and even the education system that is beholden to labor unions which are traditionally progressive/liberal movements which disenfranchise minority communities because of various agendas.
I think you are forgetting your history. The white majority did have a history of discriminatory polices against the African American movement. Some African Americans like Thomas Sowell argue that the progressive agendas meant to dismantle such polices inadvertently contributed to the social problems that the Black community faces today which in turn is the reason why they lag behind certain immigrant communities.
You are correct when you argue that social problems are an inaccurate indicator of marginalization esp. in the context of majoritarian policies which should decrease said problem within such a community but instead does the opposite. However, you are mistaken when you assume that social problems exist in a vacuum when it comes to marginalized minority communities.
For instance when you ask if economic depredation leads to crime, why the disproportion when it comes to the Indian community, the answer is simple. I will discount the Orang Asli simply because statistically they do not register on the radar and their existence (unfortunately) is confined to their reservations but we should look at the outlets available to the Bumi population in terms of elevating such depredation and discover the statistic when it comes to the urban/rural divide and the kind of crimes committed.
Furthermore the argument linking economic depredation and crime/social problems is not only Hindraf’s argument. It is Umno’s argument, the MIC arguments and the MCA’s argument. Really, Calvin this is not a new argument.
Why would you find Hindraf’s stand with regards to the NEP hypocritical or laughable? All they are asking for is the same standards applied to the Bumi community be applied to them.
Affirmative action policies are normally made by minority communities, so why is this stand anathema to you? I can understand if you reject affirmative action policies outright but where is the hypocrisy in Hindraf’s position?
(3) You claim that any affirmative action policy should be based on needs not race. So are you then a Pakatan supporter, since as far as I can tell only they are pushing this line of argument ? Barisan National has not budged from its race based formula.
And if you are a Pakatan supporter could you direct me to the relevant literature which would show how a needs based policies would be implemented. Furthermore as a Pakatan supporter could you show me on a state level exactly how these “needs” based approach is reflected in State policy.
(4) Do you know how many Malays have received loans from the government but refuse to pay up ? Do you know how many Malays have squandered the business opportunities provided by the government at the expense of other Malays businessmen ?
Nobody wants a class conflict but as long as there inequalities in the system it is bound to happen. We may consider conservative solutions or progressive ones but if we do not do something, such conflicts will arise.
As far as I can tell, and you may have conflicting opinion, the Indian community is split between three groups. A petit bourgeoisie class created by the MIC, a middle class with a strong Christian foundation and the disenfranchised mainly Hindu underclass.
Please do not wag the MIC flag in front of me, it makes me lose my composure.
(5) If it is not the role of the government to help with the Stateless issue then why is it the Najib administration is taking it so seriously. And you are wrong by the way. The issue of citizenship is within the purveiw of the State, legally mandated I might add.
And if you handled these cases before you would now that it more than just applying for an IC and marriage cert. In addition, you are damn right it is a fucking process to get ‘these stateless people” to get through the process esp. in the context of an apathetic bureaucracy if you are lucky and a racist one if you are not.
And how dare you say that there is no need for Hindraf to highlight this issue. If they didn’t would this issue even be on the pubic radar ? What the hell was the MIC doing all these years ?
I know for a fact that the MCA did far more in organizing the Chinese stateless then the wretched MIC. You blame the Indians for being stateless but what the hell do you know. You have no idea of the numbers of hours that translates into weeks of helping Hindraf get these people who you are quick to disparage registered. The unmitigated gall of your bravado.
6. What the hell does this – ‘But I do have a problem when you defend someone accused of crime just because he’s an Indian even when he/she was proven to be one’ – mean ? I’ll leave you to explain this…..
Please cite me cases where Hindraf turned criminals into heroes. I tell you what Calvin, let us look at the court registrar and see who defends whom. I have no idea why you get uptight just because Hindraf chooses to help disenfranchised Indians in the CJS, I mean we have parties like he MCA, MIC and UMNO who look after the racial agendas of their communities.
As usual Calvin you are extremely contradictory.
Conrad’s comment originally @ 2013/03/31 at 12:00 am
*** *** ***
By Calvin Sankaran
Reply to Conrad # 9:
Conrad,
Congrats for presenting strong arguments in support of MiNY. I guess this is kind of spirit that makes this blog to stand out from the others in the Malaysian blogosphere.
Allow me to present my counterpoints.
1. Re: Helen being a fact-based person: I will skip this is this point as it has no relevance to the topic – let’s nor personalize and trivialize the debate with such detours. All I would say that neither you nor Helen would fit in the category of those who “regurgitate facts with no basis in reality”.
2. Perhaps I have not explained myself fully, I hope that’s the source of your confusion. I think I should and hope that would clarify my position. And I think I should provide an analogy to better explain my position.
Let’s take the US as a comparison. When you look at the African Americans, they also have the exact same social problems as the Malaysian Indians have – alcoholism, crime, gangs, suicide, poor academic performance, etc.
Why would the blacks have the same problem when the US does not have affirmative action plan for the white majority, restrictive or discriminatory policies against the blacks? In fact the blacks receive much support and even have favorable policies to further help them?
Based on Hindraf’s definition (and MiNY’s “evidence”) such social issues point to marginalization. But no one is accusing the US govt of marginalizing the blacks. In fact the same situation is with the Red Indians in the US and the Aborigines in Australia too.
That’s why I am saying having social problems alone does not automatically indicate that the Indians are marginalized in Malaysia. This is even more illogical when you consider the Indians’ economic position in Malaysia compared to the Blacks in the US. The blacks are lagging not just behind the whites but even the recent immigrants such as Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese, etc.
If you claim economic problems lead to social issues, then why are we not seeing more crime committed by bumi, orang asli or East Malaysians? Hindraf’s assertion has no basis and cannot hold in any rational debate.
What I find to be most hypocritical and laughable about Hindraf’s position on the NEP and bumi special rights. While the make a big issue of the NEP, they demand a whole lot laundry lists of goodies for Indians – which in essence special rights for Indians.
3. I do have a simple solution to the problem which takes cognizance of the Malaysian context. What we need is to have a set of policies that helps poor people regardless of ethnicity. The issue of Indian poor is no more important that the issue of Orang Asli, Malay or Iban poor. The same goes for all other issues whether crime, education, social problems, etc. The solution should be based on needs and NOT on ethnicity.
4. Class conflict is not a concept that I would support. But the lack of unity within the community is there for all to see. Just look at the number of political parties, newspapers, magazine, etc. Unlike the Chinese community which has close knit business and cultural links, the Indians tend to split themselves into smaller groups. Look at the pathetic support the Tamil schools receive. Do you know how many rich Indians who had their education funded by MIC and other organizations but refuse to pay up, this depriving other poor Indians of scholarship?
5. Stateless Indians: Come on, if you have handled these issues you would know that it is not the role of the govt or MIC to get Indians to apply for their IC or marriage cert. There is no need for Hindraf to highlight the issue which is a common knowledge. Even if it needs highlighting, it still requires a lot of hard work to get the stateless people to get through the process. Talk is cheap and no amount of talk is gonna help if people themselves are apathetic. I can tell you that in 100% cases it is the attitude of Indians that is the problem. If Hindraf wants to solve it, they should DO something and not keep talking. I also disagree with you that the Chinese do not have the problem because of their history and political leadership.
6. Hindraf and criminals – I do not claim or subscribe to the notion that people should be considered guilty unless proven otherwise. But I do have a problem when you defend someone accused of crime just because he’s an Indian even when he/she was proven to be one. Such knee jerk actions are only making things worse when the community is already facing a big problem with crime. By turning criminals into heroes, these folks sending a wrong message and only compounding the issue.
Calvin’s comment originally @ 2013/03/30 at 4:26 pm
Helen Ang 
The good Dr Pua said loudly this year that Malaysian Politics is Malay based. His credentials cannot be compared with Lee Kuan Yew who has a Double Star First in Law from Cambridge not Oxford and probably a Third Class in the Bar Finals London. [edited] If the brilliant Lee Kuan Yew formulated failed policies for Singapore, the most notable being how the Singaporean indigenous population which was 100% in 1959 was screwdown to 62% in 2013 and 45% in 2030. Vide Singapore Government’s White Paper on Population. What can the DAP leadership do with their inferior academic qualifications as compared with Lee Kuan Yew ? Factually, the DAP has accepted a Third Class position vis-a-vis PAS and PKR after shouting themselves hoarse, ‘Malaysia for Malaysians’ for 44 years long. And sat on their butts for 44 years too without doing anything for the Malaysian Chinese but created a lot of suspicions from others with their unrealistic politics. The DAP does not deserve anyone’s vote.
AK47, eergh!!! I don’t how it fits you and that is your choice. Dr Pua, a punk like this, you know what I will rather stick to My Rempit Melayu regular Malay & Indian brethens. Your agenda is temporarily and self serving but I can always stick it together with a Malay & Indians cultured notion. No offense to the Chinese, but this is a wrong platform trying to to raise a brotherhood for what is politically has been expedient. I know Helen is Chinese, but I think she is more humane as a Malaysian than worrying about the origin.
Let’s put aside emotions and argue on facts, lest we get distracted and bogged down by trivial issues. Let’s debate on facts and facts alone.
1. American blacks – I think it is immaterial here that they are the most successful African diaspora in the world. While a black brother living on an unemployment handout of $300 a week in an American ghetto is far richer than most Rwandans, I don’t think he’ll be considered as a successful African by any measure. What is more important in measuring success of a community is how well they have done in comparison with their peers who belong to the same economic and social ecosystem. You cannot compare Congolese in living a tin shack at a Kinshasa slum with an African American staying in a LA suburb. These two people have a huge gulf in terms of opportunity available to improve their livelihood. I am not forgetting my history perhaps I should point out that what is history is the accusation of marginalization by the American government. Since the 60s so much have been done and no balanced commentator say the system is discriminatory.
Let’s not confuse ourselves here. Let’s start with the definition of marginalization. It is defined as the process which in “individuals or entire communities of people are systematically blocked from rights, opportunities and resources (e.g. housing, employment, healthcare, civic engagement, democratic participation and due process) that are normally available to members of society and which are key to social integration.”
This refers to policies, systems or societal framework and is not defined in the outcomes (ie, social, economic problems). While marginalization results in social and economic problems, the reverse is not given. That is evidence of socio economic problems is not the proof of marginalization.
If you look at the world, even in the most successful and fair countries, there exist groups who are socially and economically disadvantageous. My example of the blacks is a mere one illustration.
I dispute that Malaysian Indians are marginalized since there are no policies or framework that prevents them from advancing socially or economically. In fact that they are relatively successful economically within Malaysia compared to other communities is further proof of my assertion. I also further state that their social issues are probably arising from cultural and historical factors (displacement from estates, Indian cultures, belief system, attitude, etc).
2. Myself as a Pakatan supporter: Mere suggestion of “need based” rather than “race based” solution is no indication of my political stance. I think you are way too smart to make such absurd and personal accusation. In any case I don’t think Pakatan’s race-blind policies as sincere since what they want is to flatten the playing field so that the rich can bulldoze over the poor. I do believe BN’s policies were relevant when the decisions were made decades ago but these need to be finetuned and evolve with times. My personal belief on how Malaysia should evolve is a topic for another discussion lest we get diverted again
4. Malays not paying loans: Even if you do have the data to back up your claim, I fail to see the relevance here. As for your views on MIC, these have been colored by your person experience and I respect that. But I have seen them in action for many years (I am from estate remember) and have a vastly different and more positive opinion.
5. No country in the world has a cabinet task force to prod their own citizen to apply for citizenship. And the term stateless is very inaccurate, having a Red IC means you are a PR and not a stateless person. There is a big difference between these two. I don’t have a problem in highlighting this issue but would that solve the problem? Hindraf been claiming that hundreds of thousands as “stateless” but offered nothing to back up the claim. Where are these people? Why can’t anyone produce them so these people can be helped? The issue is solving the problem. The root cause is people’s apathy and not some governmental conspiracy or systemic effort to block them. If you Hindraf wants to solve the problem, I ask them to bring all these people to NRD and get them apply for a blue IC. I was just having a discussion with some NGO friends about this issue. Some of these people apparently can’t even speak Malay or know the name of the PM so they fail the interview. Can you tell me of any country in the world who would given citizenship for someone who can’t even converse in the national language ?
6. I was just reading the papers yesterday about the problems people in Kapar are having. The biggest issues are gangs and crime and there is no prize in guessing which community is the main offender. The MP for Kapar, Manika is a Hindraf leader who now is in PKR. According to the people interviewed, the MP himself is making the situation worse by paying the bail for arrested gangsters. As for Uthaya, just go and read yourself on Uthaya’s work on Police Watch which solely consisted of helping notorious criminals.
Word, sir. Well said!