Posted in Evangelis

Is MCA becoming the Malaysian Christian Association?

Continues from ‘Converting minors to another religion‘.

Dr Chua Soi Lek in his July 3 press statement said that there is “strong objection from MCA and MIC” to what he calls “the religion conversion Bill”.

The bill, said the MCA president, “is seen as an infringement of rights of the non-Muslims”.

He reiterated, “MCA fully objects to the tabling of the Administration of the Religion of Islam (Federal Territories) Bill 2013 as it infringes the rights of the non-Muslims”.

In his short press statement, Dr Chua repeated twice that the bill “infringed” on the rights of non-Muslims.

He added that MCA’s stand is very clear as expressed by MCA vice president Gan Ping Sieu and MCA central committee member Loh Seng Kok.

The shock, the horror

Gan Ping Sieu was “shocked to learn” about the Bill which in his view would “seriously and irredeemably affect the religious harmony and national unity of our country”.

Gan in his June 28 press statement said:

“The sudden tabling of the Bill which contains provisions contrary to the Cabinet decision will inevitably be construed as harming the legal rights of the non-Muslims. […] The tabling of the Bill is tantamount to introducing the laws by stealth and is a terrible disservice to the much-talk about national reconciliation.”

Gan’s colleague Loh Seng Kok was “dismayed” at the Bill and “implore[d]” the 7 MCA MPs to not only vote against the Bill but also “to corral the MPs from other political parties irrespective of political coalition to put forward a collective voice” against it.

In his press statement on June 28, Loh said said the Bill was “snaring non-Muslims”.

MCA deputy president Liow Tiong Lai in his press conference on July 3 pointed out that certain KPIs needed to be followed when introducing an amendment to an existing Act.

Liow also said his party MPs would press for the Cabinet can review the Administration of Islam Bill.

Wanita MCA chairman Yu Chok Tow similarly urged all MPs to vote against the Administration of the Religion of Islam (Federal Territory) Bill 2013.

In her press statement on July 5, Yu said, “We must respect a child’s freedom of religion when he or she turns 18, and allow the child to decide for him/herself”.

As you can see, the MCA bigwigs were ALL OF THEM up in arms against the conversion of non-Malay (more specifically Chinese) minors to Islam.

MCA however does not create the same uproar when minors convert to Christianity.

Let’s look at their statements again.

Objection only against conversion to Islam

Dr Chua (1): “strong objection from MCA” to “the religion conversion Bill”.

But no objection to the evangelistas – whose politicians are coddled by his party-owned newspaper – actively converting minors to Christianity.

Dr Chua (2): “MCA fully objects” to the Bill.

But no objection to the evangelistas – whose politicians are coddled by his party-owned newspaper – carrying out their proselytization activities in the Subang Jaya schools.

Gan Ping Sieu (1): The Bill allowing the unilateral conversion of minors would “seriously and irredeemably affect the religious harmony and national unity”.

But GPS has never expressed his concern that the conversion of minors to Christianity would “seriously and irredeemably affect the religious harmony and national unity” too. Not until it affects Malays, is it? But converting Buddhist Chinese and Indian Hindu youngsters is no issue, is it?

Gan Ping Sieu (2): “The tabling of the Bill is tantamount to introducing the laws by stealth…”

But GPS is perfectly fine with the churches trying to convert Malays by stealth and aggressively trying to convert Chinese openly. I don’t recall him making any statements in defence of Muslims when the Damansara Utama Methodist Church (DUMC) was accused to have converted Malays.

Loh Seng Kok: The Bill is “snaring non-Muslims”.

But it’s okay when the evangelistas – whose politicians are coddled by his party-owned newspaper – snare Malays that belong to the ostracized groups (drug addicts, homo-and-transsexuals, unwed single mothers, etc) to convert them to Christianity.

Yu Chok Tow: After the child turns 18, he can be allowed to decide his religion for himself.

What about the schoolchildren under the age of 18 who are converted to Christianity?

Does Datuk Yu know or care whether the 20 converts at the Subang Rally had attained the age of majority before they “accepted Christ” during a mass gathering organized under the auspices of a Subang Jaya education co-curricular event?

From the Subang Rally website
From the Subang Rally website

For details on the Subang Rally, see HERE and HERE

What does MCA stand for?

MCA is displaying a double standard here between their differing reactions to conversion to Islam and conversion to Christianity by minors.

Which is more rampant, the conversion of Chinese to Christianity or the conversion of Chinese to Islam?

From the looks of it, MCA is dead set against conversion to Islam.

As we know, the DAP is an evangelista-led party. As we know too, the MCA-owned newspaper berkiblatkan Jerusubang. And The J-Star is the tail that wags the MCA dog.

The line separating the MCA and the DAP is becoming very blur. The chasm separating the MCA and Umno is becoming deeper.


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171 thoughts on “Is MCA becoming the Malaysian Christian Association?

  1. ‘Dr Chua Soi Lek in his July 3 press statement said that there is “strong objection from MCA and MIC” to what he calls “the religion conversion Bill”.’

    Note the losers pack. So irrelevant, they have to bekerjasama in the fight against the bill.

    Thank you for putting it into perspective Helen. But personally this is no news to me. MCA and CSL doing the thing they did best, time and again. And MIC, with that not more than 500 majority votes president, would also do the thing that they did best; simply tagged along.

    Time and again, we are witnessing that every single time there is something that involves Islam and Muslims, like the Halal certs for example, they non Muslims will interjects and teach us a thing or two about pluralistic society bla-bla, as if we, the Muslims, historically speaking too, do not have any template on treating kafir zimmi.

    The facts that we have treated them Jus Soli with kind since Merdeka have very much gone down the drain.

    These harbi don’t know that they are playing with fire.

    1. “These harbi don’t know that they are playing with fire.”

      Waiting to explode

    2. For those who have bank accounts in Singapore like some MCA leaders, please read Moody downgrades 3 local banks to negative – DBS, OCBC and UOB. Time to transfer the money back to KL/Labuan

  2. Jangan main-main dengan orang Islam kerana mereka sanggup mati untuk mempertahankan agama Allah. Allahu Akbar!

  3. Personally, I don’t agree with the bill. If the situation were reversed, surely there will be quarters that will be similarly unhappy.

    That said, the bill should never have made it past the cabinet. It just goes on to show that the non-Muslims in the cabinet were all sleeping or too preoccupied with something else when it was brought up for discussion.

    However, here’s an article I just read in the Star today:

    Note para 3:

    “MCA wants to take part in the consultation,” he (DS Liow Tiong Lai) said.

    So it left me wondering. They don’t wanna be part of the cabinet & don’t wanna accept any government posts to the extent that they’re disciplining one of their own who followed his Sultan’s instructions BUT they wanna be a part of the consultation? As what? As equal partners? Surely not! As observers & hanger-ons? Quite possibly. Do they deserve to make their stand known? I don’t think so since they’ve renounced that right.

    So why the hell is MCA thinking they should be consulted or be made a part of the consultation over this issue??!!

    Btw, how come Ng Yen Yen isn’t hauled up to the disciplinary committee?

    1. If they want to be stakeholders under the aegis of BN within inter-party discussions, fine. But MCA has forfeited their right to be included in the government.

      Not only was MCA “wow, terribly unimpressive”, it practically gave a walkover to the DAP as well as allowed their various party machinery to campaign for the opposition.

      That is unforgivable. It was a betrayal and a stab in the back. The 90 percent Chinese votes going to Pakatan speaks for itself.

        1. Yup, DAP got the killer instinct. After mortally wounding MCA in 2008, DAP went for the kill in 2013.

          Whereas MCA never went for DAP’s jugular despite it coming out tops in several elections. Now MCA is merely a liability to the BN.

  4. Too clever by half, Helen.

    Why don’t you also mention that Christians are free to convert to other religions without being ostracized or threatened with committing the offence of apostasy?

    As someone wrote recently, becoming a Muslim is “a one-way street”.

    1. You’re saying that Muslims are constrained by the apostasy punishment and social sanction. I don’t disagree with your observations.

      Now let’s take the discussion one step further wrt the mualaf/born again (BA) getting into their respective religions.

      The crux of the issue: MCA finds it most objectionable that minors are converted to Islam. MCA does not find it at all objectionable that minors are converted to Christianity.

      Let’s go to the exit clause. None for Islam. Like you say, it’s “a one-way street”.

      Now, can BAs get themselves out of Christianity? Yes. Does it happen? Perhaps for a small number of drifters. Even Ridhuan Tee was a Christian once.

      However, can or do the majority of BAs really manage to get themselves out of Christianity if they so wish? (along the same line of argument that we’re proffering for the unilaterally converted mualaf child)

      The contents of my previous page – ‘Converting minors to another religion‘ – implies conversion into a cult. The City Harvest Church (CHC) and their ilk are cults. They are not mainline churches with a 2,000-year-old tradition. CHC is only about 20 years old.

      Now what is it about cults? They are founded and led by conman charlatans who brainwash and keep their zombie followers in thrall.

      The evangelical ones in Malaysia are non-denominational, so with them it is Anything Goes. They are not subject to the control of say, the Vatican or other established authorities.

      The CHC Singapore is an abomination. The S’pore authorities have taken action against the church ‘elders’.

      The MCA-owned and MCA-controlled newspaper covered up the CHC scandal even though CHC has branches in Penang and other cities in Malaysia.

      The CHC Subang Jaya has been implicated by the S’pore authorities for ‘money laundering’ the funds which were diverted to “Pastor” Kong Hee’s popstar wannabe wife.

      If you look at the photographs, the cultists are getting the kids young.

      I don’t fault MCA for objecting to the Islam “child conversion” Bill. However I am querying why MCA is displaying such blatant double standards.

      Can you answer?

      1. Helen is a sharp shooter……….

        “Now what is it about cults? They are founded and led by conman charlatans who brainwash and keep their zombie followers in thrall.”

        and the winner is……………….dapters yowtai evangelist

        you know what Helen….ever since i exposed in your blog that dap is anak emas of israel (referring to Umat Terakhir’s article) … low profile blog pun kena godam jugak…..

        betullah….cacing2 dalam perut mereka sudah sangat kepanasan…

        this is the most critical year for anak emas israel utk tawan malaysia dengan “con” bangsa cina ke satu sisi yang jauh dari kalangan rakyat malaysia yg lain terutama orang melayu.

        isyarat dari mesir sudah dikeluarkan…morsi sudah pun digulingkan…tetapi kenapa susah sangat dapters yowtai evangelist nak gulingkan kerajaan malaysia untuk dipersembahkan kepada hidden master mereka ???

        ini kerana kesedaran akan tipu-daya mereka telah didedahkan oleh orang2 macam Helen, walaupun pembaca majoriti blog ini adalah melayu…ia sudah cukup baik utk Helen mengingatkan jiran2 melayunya supaya sedar akan ancaman anak emas israel ini

        teruskan pendedahan itu Helen….!!

        kita sebenarnya sgt prihatin akan kelemahan kepimpinan MCA dibawah CSL yg sudah kena “con” oleh DAP tu…

        dulu kita nampak orang cina sbg bangsa yg rajin berusaha dan kita hormati mereka

        tetapi sekarang kita nampak bangsa cina seperti sudah lemah bagai lembu (maaf) yg telah dicucuk hidung oleh dapters yowtai evangelist – sudah hilang maruah diri, sudah kena saka ultra-kiasu yg semakin menjadi-jadi dan sudah sgt membenci majoriti penduduk negara ini iaitu orang melayu, bahkan orang india pun diheret sama utk malu mengaku berbangsa india seperti papa mr. bangsa malaysia tu

        1. “kita sebenarnya sgt prihatin akan kelemahan kepimpinan MCA dibawah CSL yg sudah kena “con” oleh DAP tu…”

          pembetulan…CSL bukan kena ‘con’….beliau ialah seorang ‘double-agent’…..!

          1. hhmmmm….dulu saya suka sgt tengok cerita-ceriti penyiasatan macam x-files, the bourn identity dll

            sekarang watak2 tu dah datang dlm bentuk yg nyata lagi berada di depan mata

            CSL ialah seorang double agent…….bukan dlm cerita filem…tetapi dalam cerita benar realiti politik malaysia

        2. Wangsa, anda tidak keseorangan. Blog saya yang baru sahaja sebulan jagung (hahaha) juga turut digodam beberapa kali sehingga saya terpaksa mendapatkan bantuan seorang kawan untuk menyelesaikan masalah cacing2 ini. Gerammmmm sangat. Tapi kata orang, mereka tak akan serang kalau apa yang kita perkatakan itu tidak kena kebatang hidung mereka, jadi teruskan perjuangan anda..

          :D sarah

          1. Sarah dear….

            saya pernah visit your blog tapi tak ingat apa namanya
            tapi sekarang sudah hilang…??

            when i point to your name, this is what has been listed by my google chrome

            Go to tdsworld.­com
            Go to tdworld.­com
            Go to tddsworld.­com

            betul ke??

            hahaha……you are rite….cacing aka worm (malicious program) dapters yowtai evangelist sudah sgt kepanasan…sedang menggila di alam maya…sabor je la…

    2. Interesting that Helen has deliberately failed to mention this. Objecting to the bill does not mean you are just defending Christianity as other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism will be included in the scope.

      1. MCA does not ‘interfere’ with Hinduism and Sikhism as that would be straying into MIC turf.

        Now what I wanna know is simple: Is MCA becoming the Malaysian Christian Association with its kiblat turning the Jerusubang direction just like its waggy tail The J-Star?

        1. In the statement by MCA that you youself quoted

          there is “strong objection from MCA and MIC” to what he calls “the religion conversion Bill”.

          Full sentence from the press statement;

          “I am positive that the Prime Minister Dato’ Sri Najib Razak and Deputy Prime Minister Tan Sri Muhyiddin Yassin will consult all BN component parties because of strong objection from MCA and MIC as well as the public.”

          MCA will usually let MIC handle issues regarding the Indian community. But objecting to the bill does not mean they are defending Christians only. In this issue, both the MCA and MIC has voiced their opposition.

          The latest news is that the bill has been pulled. There was talk the Sabah and Sarawakian Barisan Nasional politicians would vote against it too.

          1. Yes, lah. CSL dragged in MIC as speaking on behalf of the Indians who want to prevent Hindu children being converted by one parent over the objection of the other parent.

            But you haven’t addressed the soalan pokok: Is MCA becoming the Malaysian Christian Association?

            1. Action speaks louder than words Helen. Isn’t it so ? You know the answer. Must behave politely dear Helen. People are afraid to come out of the closet.

              1. re: “People are afraid to come out of the closet.”

                We open the MCA door so that their closet can get an airing.

              1. I am not considering them to be a ‘Christian’ association because they objected to the Bill.

                I questioned why they’re anti-conversion of minors to Islam but they’re not anti-conversion of minors to Christianity.

                Since you’re being so defensive of the MCA, can you tell us why the party is anti-conversion of minors to Islam but not anti-conversion of minors to Christianity?

                1. Helen,
                  I believe MIC also anti-conversion of minors to Islam and not to Christianity…..
                  Reason: simple.

                  In this country,any other race convert to Islam is considered ‘masuk Melayu’….which actually is totally incorrect!

                  In my lifetime, I never encounter any race convert to Christianity to become ‘orang putih’ or ‘mat saleh’, or convert to Hinduism and become Indian or convert to Buddhism to become Chinese.

                  Therefore the misunderstanding still arises.

                  1. My pengyu of 13 years said to me about some of his Chinese peng yu asking him why would he ‘masuk Melayu’ as the Chinese also ‘semayang’ sama tuhan melayu…tok hijau deities and all I supposed…

                    But then again they may be refering to Zairil’s doing… just a thought… hehe

                    1. I’ve noticed that DAP evangelista supporters are using the kalimah Allah in their online comments even tho’ they write in English and not in BM. In fact, they use Allah swt instead of saying God.

      2. What does Islam, Christianity, Buddhism have in common? All are about humility.

        Do the modern day religious practitioners follow this? Super sized churches and services in glitzy hotels – that is new Christianity. Super sized temples and statutes and vegetarian buffets – that is new Tao/Buddhism.

        The below 50s Malaysian cannot pray in a run down Church or small sized temple. It is all about money faith not faith herself.

        With the dwindling numbers of old church goers, they might close down. The old and faithful age and die and their children prefer the new churches. Perhaps only the foreign workers (Pinoys etc) and the Bumiputera Christians are left. (Old churches still have Tagalog and Iban language services.)

        Anybody proud to be a member at the temples at Petaling Street? Instead the new Taiwanese or Japanese Buddhism is MORE IN.

        Helen you got to address the changing values of the Chinese from a community based (and sharing one – like Mahathir said) to the more individualistic and hedonistic community.

        1. re: “Helen you got to address the changing values of the Chinese from a community based (and sharing one – like Mahathir said) to the more individualistic and hedonistic community.”

          Jerusubangites are beyond redemption.

            1. ‘I’ve noticed that DAP evangelista supporters are using the kalimah Allah in their online comments even tho’ they write in English and not in BM. In fact, they use Allah swt instead of saying God.’

              Yup Helen, we did notice that too. These people are testing the waters. Nothing more. Lets just hope and pray that Allah subhanawataala saves us all from the bad intent these instigators had.

          1. The Chinese only live to eat and breed like rabbit.

            You are wrong.
            They breed like Pandas. The population is dropping. When you are so busy with cellgroups, you don’t have time for sex.

  5. I would like to share a story about two young Chinese, a girl and a boy. They went to the same school as my son. They went around with Malay kids unlike their Chinese friends who kept each others company.

    The Chinese girl always wore baju kurung. One day, they were asked why they chose to be around the Malay kids, They said they wanted to marry each other and to become Moslems as soon as they left school. They could not do it then because they were underage.

    By socialising with they Malay kids help them learn and understand Islam better. I hope their parents do not disown them for what they want to do..

  6. Haha, chinese being ‘converted’ to Christians are never by ‘force’. The evangelist may use brain washing methods, bait, entertainment techniques to lure the chinese BUT unlike the UMNO Muslim, they don’t use force, they don’t use law to force convert the non Muslim to become the Muslim.

    1. So to you, “force” is a no-no but “brainwashing methods, bait, entertainment techniques” are permissible?

      1. The Christianity as espoused by the deviants of the DAP is not real Christianity. It is one big scam.

        Only the gullible take the bait. Those with an inferiority complex also take the bait. It makes them feel good, for a while.

        Those with ulterior motives i.e money, they too will subscribe to this scam. In other words, it is a cult. Everyone gets what they want, for a price.

        When they are deep into this scam, they become patients of “perpetual hysteria”. Remember perpetual hysteria ?

        1. re: “The Christianity as espoused by the deviants of the DAP…”

          The tail wagging the dog is dragging the MCA into the same scam too.

        2. You mean gullible people who travel to Indonesia to set up terrorist cells like Noordin Top?

          Or gullible people who travel from Malaysia to Syria to fight and get killed in the civil war there?

          1. or you mean gullible people who think that by embracing the white man’s phony religion they will be elevated instantly into high class, high society people ?

              1. The snow and reindeer greeting cards? Isn’t the origin of Christmas the Winter Solstice? The Winter Solstice is celebrated in the temperate, not the desert countries.

                  1. Keep your eye on the ball please! We’re talking about the New Christianity that has gripped the Dapsters and the Jerusubangites.

                    Who are the people preaching to the BAs? Hannah Yeoh and her I’m-not-Indian (I am Bangsa Malaysia) hubby are pastors.

                    Okay let’s set aside for the moment the homegrown evangelicals who preach their own rapturous brand of Christianity.

                    Let’s just take the established churches to test your “Middle Eastern teachings” claim.

                    Methodist church / also Wesley church — teachings of John Wesley, English guy.

                    Lutheran church — teachings of Martin Luther, German guy

                    Calvinist church — teachings of John Calvin, French guy

                    Anglican church – The name “Anglican” means “of England”.

                    Presbyterian church — Scottish

                    Baptist church — founded in Amsterdam

                    Adventist church — founded in USA

                    Roman Catholic churches — of Rome, of course

                    Granted there are Middle Eastern churches like Coptic and Syrian, but the ones brought here by the colonial missionaries are the White Christianity ones.

                    1. And the theology is from the Middle East. The scriptures originated from the Middle East. The prophets are Middle Eastern.

                      Bethlehem and Jerusalem is in the Middle East or Middlesborough?

                    2. The scriptures making up the Bible as we know the holy book today was collated in Greek (the Septuagint) and translated into the language of the church Latin (the Vulgate) and translated into Ye Olde English (the King James version) which are all European languages.

                      Today Jerusubang is still using the English bible albeit in modern English.

                      Like I said, the religion was brought to Malaya by the white missionaries who built ‘white’ churches that go by the names Methodist, Wesley, Lutheran, etc.

                      Back to your original contention: “Christianity is a Middle East religion”. While what you say is not wrong per se, it is debatable.

                      Christendom is synonymous with the West (orang putih). Holy Roman Empire. Pope. Cardinals. St Peter’s Basilica. St Paul’s Cathedral. Notre Dame. Images of its celebration: Snow and reindeer greeting cards. Mistletoe and holly. Santa.

                    3. “Like I said, the religion was brought to Malaya by the white missionaries who built ‘white’ churches that go by the names Methodist, Wesley, Lutheran, etc.”

                      Islam was brought to Malaya by Indian missionaries and preachers. Zheng He, the famous Chinese admiral who was also a Muslim, may have played a part. That does not make Islam a Chinese or Indian religion, right?

                      “Christendom is synonymous with the West (orang putih).”

                      But major parts of the Christian world is in South America or Africa. Brown and black people.

                    4. Yes the Indian traders brought Islam to the peninsula but the Quran is uniformly in Arabic.

                      You claimed Christianity is Middle Eastern and I countered that the Bible’s main languages are European.

                      The Quran is different. It came here in Arabic and its terms like kalimah, shahadah, solat, ibadah, kiblat, etc are Arabic. The language of the Quran for Malaccans is not Chinese whatever Admiral Zheng He’s role.

                      re: “But major parts of the Christian world is in South America or Africa. Brown and black people.”

                      My earlier statement stands. I will say it again: The religion was brought to South America or Africa to the brown and black natives by the white Spanish and Portuguese missionaries who built ‘white’ churches that go by the names Catedral de la Inmaculada Conception, etc.

                      And the famous churches in South America look like their European counterparts. They don’t sport Incan or Mayan temple architecture.

                    5. quote,”Islam was brought to Malaya by Indian missionaries and preachers. Zheng He, the famous Chinese admiral who was also a Muslim, may have played a part.”unquote – AC-DC.

                      * showing middle finger to AC-DC *

                      what a load of crap!

                  2. sorry to say ACDC…you are professing a wrong religion…find yourself youtube videos why intelligent individuals such as engineers and professors revert themselves to Islam…you know Professor Maurice Bucaille? He reverted himself to Islam after witnessing the pharaoh mummy…he knows that mummy was the real pharaoh who sank down into the sea after he ran after moses who was with his followers crossing the red can read more of these…

              2. I just want to ask a few questions. If they really follow the teachings of Jesus……………

                One, are these Christians, the men, are they circumcised ?

                And two, are these Christians, they still eat pork ?

                On these 2 counts, Judaism and Islam have more in common with one another. Christianity ?

                I have always wondered why whites hated the Jews so much. Even after we have so much control over their societies, owning so much of the wealth, possess so much political powers through proxies and exercise so much influence through our dominance of the media and entertainment industry, they still hate us so much. Some years ago, a drunk actor even said that the Holocaust didn’t happen. I m sure you know who that actor is ah ha ha ha !

                1. Just for the record, circumcision & pork made haram was recorded in the Old Testament, not the New Testament. As such they’re not Jesus’s teachings, more of the olden prophets.

                  1. I disagree. Circumcision followed the covenant Prophet Abraham made with God the Almighty. Jesus was sent to Bani Israel. Paul made it open to gentiles. Maybe Gospel of Barnabas could shed some light about this. Pork were certainly filthy. Jews, Muslims and some Christians still hold to this.

                    1. Circumcision is not a sacramental part of Christianity the way say baptism is.

                      As for the gospel of Barnabas, non of the mainstream denominations recognize it.

                      As for pork, there’s no restriction in mainstream churches. The one church that I know of which bans pork consumption would be the Seventh Day Adventist.

                  2. I beg to differ. Circumcision is the sign of the covenant made by Abraham and his descendant with Elohym.

                    Genesis 7 verse 9 o 14..
                    9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

                    If U don’t circumcise, u’ll be cut off from His people… Jesus circumcised too (Luke 2 verse 21) and he observe Sabbath.

                    If circumcision banned and pork consuming being allowed back in Christianity and parts of Jesus teachings, then how would u explain Jesus words in Matthew 5 : 17?

                    Matthew 5 : 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

                    It’s obvious in the Bible that Jesus never consumed pork, he did circumcised and he observed Sabbath.

                    In retrospect, Muslim are much closer to Jesus compares to the Jerusubang Jesus followers wannabe.. The Jerusubang cult, they are the cut off people.. they keep their foreskin & threw Jesus words in the dustbin. and unto them, on the day of his second coming…

                    On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?” And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Matthew 7:22–23

                    1. Why is baptism practiced today instead of circumcision? Btw, since male has their foreskin snipped off, the women are then excluded from God’s people by virtue of a lack of manhood?

                      As for pork, Jesus says;

                      “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

                      He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” Mark 7: 18-23

                    2. ‘Why is baptism practiced today instead of circumcision?’

                      That is what I’m saying, I’m as gobsmacked as you are? But since you are the Christian between us two, why don’t you tell me?

                      ‘Btw, since male has their foreskin snipped off, the women are then excluded from God’s people by virtue of a lack of manhood?’

                      FFC, you and I knows very well that the above quote are your saying above anything else. So be respectful will you.
                      God had never degenerated women like most cultural Marxist tries to paint. God is Merciful and the Most Gracious.

                      As for pork, after all things being said and done, the question remains whether filthy eating is Jesus doings or not? Did Jesus ever consume pork? He surely didn’t. Did he?

                      Paul has a lot to answer when he tries to teach Jesus teachings to the gentiles. It is never meant for them. When the end justify the means with Paul, it seems, everything goes. Evangelists may not be that new after all.

                  3. Come on friend, have some respect to Jesus. You are putting your own words into his mouth. Please don’t stray far from the context of the verse you quoted. Mark 7 : 15 or Matthew 15 : 11, whichever verse you quoted it from, starts with verse no 1.
                    Main context of the chapter was about few of Jesus Apostles eating Korban (yes.. Korban : קרבן) without washing their hands. Context of the verse is, whenever you do something or ate something purely for the sake of God, Elohym, Eloi, Eli, Yahweh, YHWH, Rophe or Sabaoth, you’ll surely be protected. Nothing can defile you from within. It’s a funny thing to see Christians today, choose to eat pork (which Jesus never approved of..) and submissively embrace the ‘wash your hand before eating cult’, leaving the verse fall on deaf ears.
                    Please don’t over stretch the verse context. Have some respect to Jesus. Jesus never approved in his own words, that it is kosher to eat pork. But he did encourage Christians to eat poisons, venoms and etc to prove what he said, that nothing could harm or defile any believing Christians, if their faith in God are strong.

                    And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakeswith their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands onsick people, and they will get well.” (Mark 16 : 17 to 18)
                    If u can’t find poisonous snakes venom anywhere to consume, maybe a click to exoreptiles would help..


                    I do not encourage u to do that. I’m warning u that eating poison will cause u fatal harm.. but if u think that u fit the verse 17 – 18, Christians that speak in new tongues, and u really have strong faith in him, who else can stop you when u insist.. But you’ll face some problem with The Constitution. The Constitution clearly said that :

                    Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it (Article number: 11 (1))..
                    But, Article 11 (5) may stop any attempt to allow any Christians from practising Mark 16 : 17 to 18.

                    Article 11 (5) This Article does not authorize any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.
                    Please don’t interpret Article 11 (5) as an agression on Christian’s freedom to practise their faith and starts 115 demonstrations all over the world. Clause (4) & Clause (5) in Article 11 were designed for Christian’s own good.
                    On circumcision, please, when ur scripture said Man and Foreskin. It really mean Man and Foreskin.Women have their own burden.

                    I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Timothy 2 : 9 – 15)
                    Wow.. if what the verses said are true, then how will most of the Christians women today, including some of the politically motivated zealot be saved when they opted for celibacy? These women seriuosly need some foreskin to be slashed and be saved. Just like u fantasies it.
                    To ur info, Tree, Coconut, E.T., Frogs and Binturongs etc are excluded from the above verses. Each have their own loads and burdens suitably design to fit each and their very own capabilty. Please don’t overstretch. If u doubt ur scripture on gender equality, u blame the scribes, redaction and ur church for meddling too much into God’s territory. For the Epistles of Timothy which I quoted, it is Paul’s word that ur church included as the words of God.They are putting their own thoughts, words and patriachial fantasies into God’s scripture.
                    This is the problem with Christians today. They like to overstretch. They leave the actual commandments and do the things that their scripture never approved of. In the discussion context, Jesus asked them to consume venom and leave pork, they consume pork and leave the venom. Luckily we have Article 11 clause 5 to stop any Christians Zealots from fatally harming themselves.

                  4. But if you don’t have to circumcise because we are blessed by grace, the same logic lies with the 10%.

                    The problem is that the new churches what is blessed by grace or what is by law.

                    1. If blessed by grace alone could save up Christians, then their Bible must be totally obsolete. Why don’t they just keep it away in a museum & ask Parkiam to stop making a big fuss over Allah’s name in that “serve for no purpose book”?

                      Eloi, Eli, Yahweh, Rophe, Sabaoth, El Shaddai, Jirei, God, Lord, Elohym or Allah, as the book serves for no purpose (according to you, Christians) the difference could only add up to mere semantics.

                      So, please stop paving more political miles grinding on this kind of issue.

            1. I’ll take the white man’s phony religion to the Wahhabist con game that preaches equality and peace but is anything but. At least in the former I get a great show

          2. oh I also forgot. talk about deviant cults by AI. anyone here remembers the Waco siege between February 28 and April 19, 1993 ?

            for those too wet to know what the siege was all about, it was a standoff between the American federal and Texas state enforcement and military against the The Branch Davidians, a Christian sect led by David Koresh.

            The group was suspected of weapons violations and a search and arrest warrant was obtained. needless to say, all in, 76 members of this cult perished. but the influence of David Koresh and his cult didn’t end here.

            in 1995, the Oklahoma City Bomber Timothy McVeigh cited the Waco incident as his primary motivation in carrying out the Oklahoma City bombing.

            clearly violence is not the vocation of a certain group of people, as fondly cited by certain readers of this blog. but then again, certain quarters love to paint Muslims in such a manner hoping that it will stick and Muslims will become overly defensive, and thus allowing this group of people to attack Muslims.

            oh by the way, the BBC has announced that its Channel 4 station will broadcast the Muslim call to prayer every morning throughout the holy month of Ramadan. and guess what ? some people are already calling this move divisive.

            read this

            ah here we go again, some people just can’t resist the urge to attack Muslims. is it any wonder why Islam is rising in Europe despite all the attacks and provocations ?

            1. Do you want a list of deviant (difficult to tell with the way how most Muslims practise their beliefs) Islamic groups ?

              Yeah Islam is rising in Europe because we have asylum seekers running away from their Paradises and attempting to impose their values on the countries which gave them shelter.

              Which also explains the emergence of right wing wankers as a means to combat this rise.

              You should have just stuck with the African American Muslim experience as an example of the rise of Islam battling an entrenched Judaeo-Christian system of oppression . Even this would be problematic but at least it is honest.

              1. you must be really worried by the rise of Islam is Europe. wee wee

                1. Not really, I am dealing with the fallout here.

                  Already the right wingers are winning in Europe, conveniently conflating “white oppression” with the religious dialectic of Muslims. And these conflations is gaining traction I might add.

                  Re: Episode of Criminal Minds.

                  Yes Luke Perry did a great job as a wacko cult leader also engaging in kiddy fiddling on the side. Of course his performance was overshadowed by the always watchable Jeff Fahey, who was the original libertarian leader that the Perry character disposed off.

                  1. If it wasn’t for 90210, the original 90210 by the way, not the new one, nobody would have known Luke Perry. I though he did just okay as the cult leader. As for libertarian ideology, its just a niche, I seriously doubt anyone would subscribe to it since the mainstream media is overtly hostile to it, Ron Paul’s run for the presidency being the perfect example.

                    The anti Muslim thing going on in Europe is not sustainable. The white population is aging, birth rates of whites are tumbling across the continent while more and more Muslims make their way to the continent and along with it, the higher birth rates of Muslims. Looking at it, in the medium to longer term, the Muslim population could reach parity with the native whites by 2050.

                    That leaves the Chinese and the Indians holding fort in Asia while the Americans, with the protection of geography, the Atlantic and pacific Oceans, will become increasingly detached from Europe.

                    Many have spoken of a USA – China – India axis as anchor of global security for the 21st century. And its looking increasingly true that this will be the order of things.

                    1. Re: 90210, Luke Perry and Jeff Fahey

                      90210 was aimed at my generation, which may not be the greatest but at least it is not reflective of the gross reality TV preoccupations and narcissism of the generation that the reboot is aimed at. With regards to Fahey’s acting , YMMV. I have liked him in most everything I have seen him in, including his earlier B movies. He seems to get better with age.

                      Re: Libertarian

                      You would be surprised at the influence of the libertarian ideology and of Ron Paul’s success despite the mainstream media in America. The Republican Party is in fact merely a holding center for the two various extremes of the libertarian ideology. The tea party is grounded it in and the last time I checked a significant number of them were voted into the Senate.

                      There will always be that debate of what exactly is the libertarian ideology esp. when it comes to the social conservative ideas of the right wing, but to dismiss it as niche at this particular time in the US, where the alternative media is just that, is wrong headed.

                      Re: Eventual Muslim parity through birth rates

                      Yes, I have seen the same statistics bandied about by the very same right wing forces that could eventually put a cap on immigration and refugee status. “They will outbreed us” emotional appeal is what is fueling the rise of nationalistic forces in Europe but more importantly an indication of how Muslim extremism is advanced and waters down traditional Western democratic values. But this does not mean my contention that the right wing forces in Europe winning is wrong but we would have to wait and see how far they are willing to go.

                      As it is, prominent liberals in Britain are pointing to the failure of multiculturalism and this points more to how they have coddled Islamic trespass into their traditional secular communities, IMO. France, Belgium , Holland have started sabre rattling through various laws implemented , parties getting into power and the fact that the majoritarian “white” communities there seem amenable to the rise of these right wing factions points to a Clash of some sort….

                      Re. Chinese and Indians holding the fort and America becoming detached from Europe.

                      You are right when you say that China and Indian will most probably never allow Islam to dominate the region where it poses a threat to them but then again, who knows. As for America the last time a group proposed that their existence would eventually detach America from Europe was the German’s Workers Party (DAP), we all know how that turned out. So who knows.

                      Your last para, I am in complete agreement with.

              2. Malaysian Chinese pun asalnya “asylum seekers running away from theirs Paradise and now attempting to impose their values on the country which gave them shelters.

              3. Conrad | Julai 6, 2013 at 12:02 pm

                ‘Yeah Islam is rising in Europe because we have asylum seekers running away from their Paradises and attempting to impose their values on the countries which gave them shelter.’

                I beg to differ la bro, Islam came to Europe by the immigrants whom were made poor by these European Colonialists. Their ‘Paradise’ homeland were made hell by these colonialist and now they come to claim the very wealth long stolen from them.

                Wither history eh?

                1. Actually most of them are seeking political asylum rather then economic asylum. But if you really believe that they are claiming economic reparations, you should love and support Hindraf.

                  1. I sympathize with the plight of Indians, but the way Hindraf hijacked the issue, was simply a put off and very much insulting.

                    But then again its not apple and orange, is it?

                    Hindraf would get my undying support should they sue the British for putting them into this economic quagmire mess!

                    The people movement from the African continent, Turkey or even from as far as the south Americas are definitely economic.

                    But certainly political asylum were being used to justify the means. A lot of people fall for it too. As we can learn from Ayaan Hirsi Ali on how she conned the dutch and they in turn made her a member of Parliment. Its very funny I promised you. read it here.


                    Oh yeah, she had made to the US after that brouhaha and I’m sure political asylum was being tossed around too. And funnily a lot of people buys it too!

                    1. It’s not apple and oranges. Hindraf didn’t hijack anything, they brought up the issue. The Muslims dialectic in Europe is not about fighting for the same rights as the natives but changing those rights to suit Islam.

                      Holland being the far left country in terms of welcoming immigrants/refugees is slowly learning that their altruistic ways is thought of as a sign of weakness amongst a certain vocal sect of Muslims.

                      Hirsi Ali didn’t con anyone. While I may not agree with the entirety of her polemics against Islam , I do subscribe to her right to her express herself as do I those in this forum who say “tough luck” when describing the unjust treatment meted out between the various communities in this country.

                    2. Exactly Helen, all of us, Malaysians of all ethnicity, should just go ahead and sue the British for the very unfortunate predicament we are all in right now.

                      Although the monetary compensation may not be much as in the Kenyan case, we absolutely have the right to do so.

                      And then we can start suing, the Portuguese, the Dutch and the Japanese.

                      I’m pretty sure all Malaysians, have their very own ‘Batang Kali’ story. But what are we waiting for?

                    3. Ayaan Hirsi Ali con works was being exposed by the dutch media themselves. But then again, it seems that we cant stop people from siding or believing her.

                      As for Hindraf and the Muslims fighting for liberte, egalite and fraternite in civilized Europe, perhaps at this juncture we can agree to disagree.

            2. I remembered watching the documentary on Astro a decade or so back. My thoughts then was that the Davidians were a bunch of wac(k)o whacks.

              But then again, that’s why its a cult, they’re cultists & they worship a cult personality.

              An episode of Criminal Minds was actually based loosely on the Waco Siege did you know?

              1. season 4 of Criminal Minds where Prentiss and Reid go undercover in Colorado to investigate an alleged case of child abuse at the compound of an underground cult in La Plata County, and subsequently they find themselves being held hostage when a raid, led by the State Police, on the fortress ends up going disastrously wrong.

                1. Most pakatan supporters believed that their leaders can do no wrong. LGE can do no wrong. NA can do no wrong. AI is definitely can do no wrong. Cult figures no doubt.

                  Najib and BN leaders on the other hand are being ridiculed day in, day out, by the supposedly RM350juta-BN bloggers. Maybe these bloggers are not pro BN after all but rather anti PR entities and we should give them credits where its due, don’t we?

    2. Malaysian. Please add SEX, SEX, SEX AND MORE SEX, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY AND MORE MONEY plus aggressive and confrontational politics – you have one explosive whole.

    3. The Mat and Minah Salleh in Europe and America are leaving the Christian faith in droves. Why must Malaysians try to increase the number of Christians here. Just to fill up hell?

      1. Churches are being turned into mosques and hotels. The new Christians here are attracted by sex and money and idleness in a complacent and easy environment which was created for them by the BN led by the UMNO with the 13 component parties for 56 years, to play mischief after the usual fun and games became too boring for them. They want SHIOK !

  7. Answer here, if you don’t mind.

    Re: Alright. So where does that take MCA vis-a-vis its relationship with Umno-BN?

    Moneymen ? Flufflers ? The fact is the pecuniary interests of the Chinese community will continue to fund UMNO at the same time cavorting with the DAP/PR. Hey it worked when the Yanks played the same game with Iraq and Iran…..

    The fact is, the MCA is a dead duck, killed off by the DAP and its own incompetence and collusion with forces which it thought would remain loyal to it.

    The Chinese have made it clear, what they think of the MCA and the UMNO social contract, which was abused by the BN.

    BUT consider this purely anecdotal or maybe a data point (and which may have nothing to do with this thread)

    I was talking to a former MCA moneyman (I have known since my teens) who now is a member of the Chinese proletariat class of the DAP. He hates the Evangelists with a passion, which is funny to me because I know(knew) his daughter in the Biblical sense.

    “English Keling” he calls me but he means it as a term of endearment. He was telling me that there is a disconnect between the Evangelists and the class he claims to represent. Half the time he says, the Chinese he “jagas” has no idea what is going on.

    Lynas and environmental issues ? Most of them (his people) had no idea what the big fuss was about and when Wong Tuck joined the DAP he (they) assumed there was a profit motif attached.

    Christianity and conversion. Don’t “kacau” the Malays and see to it that they don’t kacau us. This whole idea of “Western” values via the transmission of Christianity is foreign to his kind and him.

    So, he would very well be supportive of your comments of young Chinese converting to Christianity and messing with the traditional culture of the community.

    For instance he was very angry when the whole Psy fiasco took place because he thought that they young people there should have given PM Najib “face”.

    In his view, it would not be a bad thing for the DAP to take over the MCA role in BN.

    1. Thanks for taking the effort to answer my question.

      re: “the Chinese he ‘jagas’ has no idea what is going on”

      I think so too. They just want to see Umno dead and a new government in Putrajaya which they think will usher in Utopia.

      But ignorance is no excuse. The 90% Chinese vote, and the attitude that went with it, is bringing about repercussions and reprisal.

      re: “The fact is, the MCA is a dead duck, killed off by the DAP and its own incompetence and collusion with forces which it thought would remain loyal to it.”

      What are those “forces”? You’re still vague.

      1. Re: “But ignorance is no excuse….”

        I feel the same way about the Malays who continue to vote for UMNO.

        Re: Forces

        I have alluded to this before. The Evangelists are not a knew phenomenon here in Malaysia. What is new, is that the DAP has managed to harness it.

        The rise of this movement happened on the MCA watch because it was in fact a “Chinese” issue. The movement crept up on the community but instead of seeing it as a cultural and eventually political threat, the MCA thought it could make money off it.

        For a time this arrangement was successful but in time, the DAP realized that their younger members who were already embedded in the movement would make an ideal force for UBAH.

        1. re: “the MCA thought it could make money off it”

          Aside from The J-Star revenue from circulation and ads, who and how else the MCA involvement?

          Methinks the Chinese business cover all bases and ‘contribute’ variously to the main political players on both/any sides.

          1. Helen, I am surprised at you. If people knew of the financial “leakages” (to use a KJ term) that goes on in this movement….it would make the Tabung Haji scandals look like well… kindergarten naughtiness .

            Massive amounts of money from this movement in the earlier days (and most probably these days) collected for charitable purposes where used to fund the business ventures of MCA big boys and now most probably the DAP.

            Hell if people knew of the fact that many established companies these days were funded in the gogo days of the movement with the connivance of the MCA, they would most probably vote PSM.

            Of course all this could be considered fitnah but if someone were to actually follow the money trail and the wheeling and dealing that goes on in this movement, they would understand that nobody, Malay, Chinese or Indian, can ever say they have clean hands.

            1. re: “Hell if people knew of the fact that many established companies these days were funded in the gogo days of the movement with the connivance of the MCA, they would most probably vote PSM.”

              We should just vote PSM regardless :)

            2. Brother Conrad although I’m starting to think that you are in fact a CIA agent, especially with ‘follow the money trail’ tip off, I would definitely need another tip off from you, if you don’t mind, since PAS is not an option for its Islamist (Zionist most favorite term) stance and most non Muslims Malaysians scorned at the very thought, would it make the Malays much smarter if they choose to vote for PKR instead of UMNO.

              Especially when you seems to be parroting the DAP with your Malays voted UMNO equals to ignoramus extraordinaire?


              “But ignorance is no excuse….” Helen

              “I feel the same way about the Malays who continue to vote for UMNO.” Conrad

              1. Following the “money trail” is a time honoured journalistic method of inquiry and investigation. The CIA would never advocate following the money trail, because it would lead back to them.

                Would the Malays be smarter for voting PKR instead of UMNO? Not really because PKR and UMNO are essentially the same. However voting for the Opposition be it PAS, PKR or DAP, would send a message to UMNO – if you think a message needs to be sent, that is. I think it does. I would prefer it if PSM become a force to counter balance mainstream Oppositional politics.

                As for parroting the DAP line, some times you can disagree with a political party but agree on specific issues. It’s called maturity or not allowing partisan bias to get in the way of rational thinking.

                For instance my views on UMNO are known to some readers of this blog, but yet I gave credit where credit was due when it came to the “Allah” controversy.

                1. Apparently Malays can do no right could they? As for being non partisan, I believe we are in the same boat la bro, no?

                  1. I never said that the Malays can do no right, if anything my quarrel is with UMNO. I never claimed that I was non partisan, just that I find it saner discussing issues (most of the time) with people who support the Establishment. We are of course in the same boat brother. We are citizens of the same country.

                    1. re: “I find it saner discussing issues (most of the time) with people who support the Establishment.”

                      LOL. And another thing, people who support the establishment have a better sense of humour.

                    2. Of course you don’t brother. But you don’t really have to, do you. It is rather self explanatory.

                      Voting for UMNO would make them ignorant and kampung. Voting for PAS would made them Islamist ala Nordin Mat Top, ever ready to rape all women and bomb infidels from their beautiful mansions.

                      So who should the Malays give their vote to? A lot of them are already voting MCA, MIC and the other BN components, despite the continous tikam belakang I might add.

                      So who should they vote to make it right for them? Or to make citizen like you, brother Conrad, at least thinks that it is the right voting direction for them?

                      But please don’t tell the Malays they still have PKR as an option. PKR was never an option despite Anwar presiding at the top of the food chain. Without PAS most Malays would only mention PKR in passing.

    2. The Chinese in Malaysia are simply ingrates and kiasu. To be honest, Umno no longer need MCA, Gerakan or any other party. Umno, with the help of the Bumiputra parties in Sarawak, can rule Malaysia on its own.

  8. Accepting what kind of Christianity is the question. Not traditional church anyway. Helen you should reword your article to “Is MCA becoming the Malaysian Charismatic Association”?

    The traditional churches are having their numbers reduced. How many people go to the Tamil church in Melaka (as in your illustration)? Are the numbers going to the Wesley church near Chin Woo a lot? No. The numbers are dwindling. These churches are not “happening”. In fact Helen the churches in the inner city of KL are full of Pinoys, Bumiputera Christians and old people.

    The new churches are glitzy and more opinionated, unlike the traditional churches. The new churches have rock and roll services unlike the traditional ones where the Padre (they still use old words like these) wear like a period piece in their Sunday services. The new one are in social media. Some in the old churches do not welcome social media (one old one in Penang is an example.).

    Compare an contrast. The bulletin at an old church would about mostly birthdays and funerals (which are quite a lot). Seldom there are youth seminars and no such thing as cell groups. The new one are full on concerts, youth gathering and services at glitzy hotels.

    The new Christians are very brash and many times disrespectful. The old style church maybe outdated but we have a strong sense of community. The same “muhibbah” like the old school Chinese, kampong Malay or Hindu community. The new Christian are taught to propagate, our old style is to serve the community first.

    Helen you have to address the change of values in the Chinese community. The old school is all about service (like the old Christians). The new ones are all about glamour. Service to them is with a payment. No young person is interested in going into the field are serve the disabled or destitute like the traditional temples, churches or mosque community. Just give a big donation and that’s it. You feel humbled because you gave money, not because you mixed with the destitute and felt you are luckier. That is new Christianity. Many of your Christian readers don’t buy the new style Christianity. Call us old fashion.

    1. re: “the change of values in the Chinese community. The old school is all about service (like the old Christians). The new ones are all about glamour.”

      Yup. The evangelista scourge. I’m aware of the issues but there is little that I can do as one individual with no media platform and few resources.

      In fact it is almost miraculous that my little personal blog has come this far, what with coming under the relentless attacks and smear campaign.

      re: “The new Christians are very brash and many times disrespectful.”

      And that is why it is inevitable that they will eventually clash with the Malay-Muslims.

      1. My point again. Datuk Seri Michael Chong’s complaints department (MCA). Datuk Lee Lam Tye (ancient DAP).

        Service. Service. Service.
        Not the kind of values the Chinese want to be in today.

        Do you want to do aerobic at YMCA at Brickfields or at Fitness First?

        Glamour. Glamour. Glamour.
        Not the kind of values the Chinese want to be in today. Any Subang kid asking Mommy to send them for classes at YMCA?

          1. He had wanted to serve the people and he did. Politics in Malaysia it seems are ways for people to make quickie big money.

            Any politicians who says that all he wants to do is to serve the people, should consider Tan Sri Lee Lam Thye way. And who says that politics is the only way to make big money, doing public service does too. Tan Sri, care to share some secret?

            1. I could be wrong. But I understand that Lee Lam Thye stood up at one of Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad’s last public gatherings and suggested that the National Service Camps be established. I considered this is 1972 and thought it is unfair tfor kids to undergo something which could have been provided for in the schools and the other risks to their well-being. I also heard Lee Lam Thye’s kids were working in London when he suggested this.

    2. I don’t know about the other denominations but you can see in the Catholic church at least in Klang Valley, they’re running more & more youth oriented programs.

      In St John’s the Charismatic group seems to be making a comeback with weekly prayer meetings drawing the crowd. They’ve organized two live in youth camps in Genting & Fraser’s as a means to introduce charismatic prayer to the youths & young working adults.

      The Choice & a group I can remember what it’s called (originating from St Francis Xavier) caters to single, working adults below 40. Having attended the former weekend live in program, 38 out of 44 attendees on my weekend were professionals or in managerial positions which equals stable careers & possibly finances.

      The programs will have follow up sessions where they get to know you better before “recruiting” you for their other programs. More often than not, the less endowed either career wise or financially are sidelined as they’re considered to be less than qualified to contribute beyond manual labor like chair arrangements.

      Now, is this how Christians are supposed to treat each other?

      Unfortunately the proliferation of the “disease” that’s prevalent in evangelical church is reaching a worrying level in my opinion. When traditionalists such as the Pope Emeritus decided to bring the liturgy closer to their Latin translation, it pushes the young away. And they will end up in the open arms of the evangelical as they make worshiping hip, cool & fun compared to the curmudgeonly ways of the traditional mainstream denominations.

      The way I see it, the evangelical churches are like swarms of locusts. They don’t care what they destroy & whose life they affect as long as they’re fed. And when they’re done & unable to squeeze an ounce more, they’ll just train their guns on another target. They are destructive & dangerous to say the least.

      1. re: Pope Emeritus

        All the former popes? You referring to Ratzinger?

        re: “the evangelical churches are like swarms of locusts. They don’t care what they destroy & whose life they affect as long as they’re fed”

        Aaaah, in the Dapsters they have met their match in heaven.

        1. Ratzinger. He instituted the new Roman Missal translation from the start of the season of Advent of 2011. It was translated to reflect the original Latin text of the liturgy.

          What he put in motion was a major revamp of prayers which has been used for approximately half a century. Heck, I grew up knowing all that prayer by heart. It was frustrating at the start as the prayers all sound so alien especially when it is sung. But I’ve decided back then to accept it so it ceased to be a problem.

          This move of his was deeply unpopular especially among the youths & those below 50 thereabouts. In fact, it was supposed to have been implemented as far back as Advent of ’09. But it was postponed to explain the train of thoughts & reasons behind the move.

          This has led to quite a few straying away as prayers sung in traditional tunes can be a wee bit boring. Back then, you’re on auto mode mouthing the prayers. Now, you need to have a prayer book in front of you or concentrate on the projected prayers. Thus, the noticeable drop in youth participation in a few Klang Valley Catholic churches that I regularly go to.

        2. Re: in the Dapsters they have met their match in heaven.

          And if they believe in all that hogwash they’re spewing there will be hell to pay in the afterlife.

          1. Muslims are being controlled in many ways by the respective religious department. Having said that, I also would like to add that Muslims are in no way better off than their non Muslim counterpart, when facing with cult and devious sects. But at least there is some sort of control in place.

            Non Muslims religious institutions in Malaysia is more of a laissez faire affair. It is up to the respective communities to decide on what to do and which samis to bring into the country. The government seems rather indifferent if not oblivious to this. Heck some are still reporting to the Vatican and it is still business as usual by UMNO, which I believe is very unfortunate for the country especially with 1Malaysia or Malaysian First being thrown in the mix, time and again.

            I just wonder whether the government are doing the Christians, with the advent of the evangelist with their doing as highlighted by the quote below, a disservice for not having any proper control or even attempt to scrutinize this RM2 institutions, as Singapore does?

            re: “the evangelical churches are like swarms of locusts. They don’t care what they destroy & whose life they affect as long as they’re fed”

            Does the government too, doing the non Muslim communities in a way, suffers for the lack of control shown at non Muslim religious institutions, for example on the bunch of ‘alims’ being brought into the country in the name of religion?

            My concern is does the government at least vetted these ‘ulama’, for all we know these might be the Tigers seeking asylum?!

            Or does some non Muslim Malaysians think that this too is one of UMNO’s many scheme to outplay the non Muslim Malaysians, like most things are?

    3. Greetings Mulan,

      These “kaum baru” Christians you are referring to are probably influenced through-and-through by American liberal-progressive cultural marxism. It is a cocoon of intellectual relativism and social subjectivist theories calculated to benefit certain groupings behind-the-scenes. A humongous scandal-mongering media network allied to Anwar’s liberal islam platform will bring Malaysian civil society down to the dogs of hedonism and social deviancy.

      Notes on the origins of “political correctness” of the PKR kind: [YouTube]

      1. The anchor mention the magic word loved by the Pakatoons.


        Definitely being used time and again for almost anything now.

        Perhaps after being successful staging war on Christian values and successfully dismantling monarchy worldwide, these movement have been staging the war against Islam and Muslims ever since.

        The white Americans dilemma mentioned by the anchor on the fight against American values can be seen happening all over the world on Islamic values. Muslims are THE enemy now. Probably why MCA (and others) are so vocal in its opposition towards the bill as opposed to young Buddhist or Hindu being made Christians as highlighted by Helen.

        Thus the need for Muslims to be liberal as oppose to fundamentalist or extremist or islamist (whatever the labels mean) to be the citizen of the world. Otherwise the school of thought is, they might be as well, bombed!

        Any Malaysians share this view?


        1. Oh yeah, he did mention ‘the rural white ignorant paid gun totting lunatic’ being scape goat for these people agendas.

          I guess the DAP potshot against UMNO and its supporters as being ‘the rural Melayus ignorant, keris totting islamist’ were nothing new after all.

          The narratives and the MO were certainly matched. And with the help of ‘A humongous scandal-mongering media network allied to Anwar’s liberal islam platform’ with Wall Street and London backings, certainly will turn this country into another Egypt if not Syria.

          1. Bro Islam1st,

            I think you have made very reasonable conclusions about the local opposition’s politicking schema from the American “political correctness program” in the video. The endemic economic-mindedness of our Chinese community have ushered them into the fray of the evangelistic neocon global players.

            Confucius would faint to witness the abandonment of spirituality and ethics in today’s society. The Chinese rejected their traditional heritage wholesale in the 20th century for Communist Marxist materialism, and now its civilizational recuperation is going to take quite some time.

            If not for the blessings of Prophet Muhammad’s intercession and his compassionate teachings we are doomed to go down the track of struggling America today – selfish material pursuits and spiritual ignorance eating into its social fabric. The reactionary wahhabi islamists and scheming libertines amongst us are just the catalyst in the Packatan chemical formula of Chinese-led capitalist reactionism to post-communism.

            Prof. Tu Wei Ming: Imagining Confucian Democracy [YouTube]

            Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Achieving Balance in a Troubled World [YouTube]

            Peace be with you bro.

  9. Been living among the Chinese community for the last 18years.

    Noticed the kids here below 20yrs old (even those married couples below 50yrs old), hardly go near any temple or Church except (when I see them all dressed up) to attend weddings.

    The one closest is a Catholic church – 1.5km from my home, mainly Indians, not many Chinese seen going there. One shop-office nearby, not sure what sect of Christianity, usually on Sundays notice Indians (no Chinese at all) with orphan kids (2 vans from dont know where) doing some sort of activities along the corridors.

    Chinese practicing other religions; the only active Chinese community here (above 50s are the SaiBaba groups – weekly members collect foodstuff and clothings to distribute to the poors once a while they organize trips to India), other then these, hardly see the Chinese (below 50s) going to temples or whatnot.

    Such a minority making so much noise on religion… please la!

    1. re: “Such a minority making so much noise on religion”

      That same minority make the loudest noise on many other things.

      They are dragging the silent majority of Chinese into the gutter, like The J-Star wagging the MCA dog which has purportedly one million party members.

      1. Just curious Helen.

        I was from Convent way back when 98% of our teachers were nuns from Europe even our Headmistress was Reverend Mother from Sweden.

        Many Chinese classmates, none of them Christians even today all of them still practice either Taoism or Buddhism.

        Actually in Malaysia, how many percent among the Chinese are Christians? Even in my community here today, I have yet to come across one. Are these groups new converts? Any datas/figures?

        1. Yes, figures would be good. MCA should do a survey and provide them.

          As for the Born Agains, we can see from the Subang Rally photos, including the SR-2013 edition that Hannah Yeoh tweeted, that these new Christians are teenagers.

          It is doubtful that they’re from convent schools. For example, Hannah’s alma mater which was one of the schools to host the Subang Rally is not a convent but a Sekolah Menengah Kebangsaan.

          To examine the spread of evangelism, it is perhaps more instructive to examine City Harvest Church in S’pore or the mega churches in Korea.

          It is a phenomenon of our time and not of the mission school of yore.

          1. ‘For example, Hannah’s alma mater which was one of the schools to host the Subang Rally is not a convent but a Sekolah Menengah Kebangsaan.’

            So no wonder you are not in favour for all of us to study only in Sekolah Kebangsaan. Theirs are not exemplary either.

    2. The Chinese have been DE-TRIBALIZED BECAUSE OF URBANIZATION AND THE NEP. Their young are attracted to the RM2 incorporated churches because of boredom, sex, life-style activities and money etc.

  10. I shall let you decide whether this article is seditious or otherwise. And if you deemed this article as not seditious, then you should publish my comment below.

    If this kind of mindset is so prevalent among Chinese youth, then heaven help us. If more and more Malays become aware of this, there will only be one outcome, and that outcome is best described by the word “backlash”.

    1. The Unspinners should be careful over Facebook material. It could be a fake account or by imposters.

      1. But are you going to deny that such sentiment does not exist among today’s Chinese youth ?

        What I m really concerned, as I have mentioned, is that when more and more Malays truly believe that the Chinese, not just the youths but the general Chinese population as well share, harbor the same sentiment regarding the Malays, then we will truly have a backlash coming.

        And when the backlash does arrive, are the Chinese going to blame Malays yet again ?

        1. As per se, yes malay will get blame again. To be blunt, UMNO. But then when that time come, it to late already for the chinese to blame anyone. As per now, they can just say “I’m sorry” when they go too far. But I as I write before, if they go the way it is, the malay will retaliate.

          :( sarah

          1. As far as Malaysia is concern, as Malaysians starts blaming one another for their own follies. The rest of the world will only say, ‘padan muka, we’ve told you so, it is not gonna work, having ‘truly asia’ in that small penisular!’

            1. re: ” The rest of the world will only say, ‘padan muka, we’ve told you so, it is not gonna work”

              Sad. The Dapsters are still unable to understand what damage they did on 5 May 2013, menang sorak kampung tergadai.

              TDM was ahead of the curve and he foresaw the consequences when he gave his Gelang Patah ultimatum.

              More unforgivably, MCA are still in denial dan acuh tak acuh tentang perbuatan paling tadah mereka tu.

                1. To clarify your question:

                  Are you asking if I believe that Umno was involved in some way or another – through some kind of political decision/action deliberately and consciously taken by Umno – for the MCA wipe-out in GE13?

                  1. Not quite, but on greater level UMNO is consciously doing something for the racial divide as suggested by few readers here.

                    1. re: “UMNO is consciously doing something for the racial divide”

                      Can you elaborate?

                    2. Helen here it goes.

                      Malaysian | Julai 5, 2013 at 4:29 pm
                      Jadi pihak yang bukan Islam langsung tiada hak? Tanggungjawab pada pasangan bukan Islam berakhir pada saat bila pasangan memeluk agama Islam?
                      This is where Islam is seen as ‘unfair’ and intimidating against non Muslim.
                      Because we know in Malaysia, the Syariah court will be biased against the non Muslim, some spouse decide to convert to Muslim last minute and convert their children as well in order to gain the custody of the chidlren and relieve their responsibility to their spouse. If this is what the UMNO Malays want, then this is an utter insult to the religion Islam which do not force people into their religion.

                      JAWI aniaya Gadis Melayu | Julai 6, 2013 at 5:11 pm
                      Muhyidin kena main lagi dengan Tamil.
                      Sape yang nak lari bawa anak dari bini? Orang India.
                      Mereka guna Islam untuk bawa lari anak dan dapat perceraian secara otomatik.
                      Orang India mcam ini pun Muhyidin nak bawa masuk Islam?
                      JAWI tu penuh dengan Taliban PAS menyorok dalam Kerajaan UMNO.
                      Sape yang membolehkan perempuan Melayu di rogol asalkan kurang dari 4 lelaki? Pegawai JAWI lah?
                      Sape yang protect lelaki yang sodomise lelaki lain keranan tak bawa 4 saksi? JAWI lah.
                      Siapa yang sebat anak perempuan Melayu kerana mengandung luark nikah? JAWI lah.
                      Semua bahlol seks kat JAWI tu. Penganut Islam totok.
                      Semak semua undang-undang yang dibuat oleh pegawai JAWI yang menganiayai perempuan Melayu atas nama ugama orang ARAb.

                      Conrad | Julai 5, 2013 at 4:50 pm
                      Netto is Anwar ‘s propagandist. How effective he is debatable since he writes like a secondary school twit who has just discovered the existence of a thesaurus.
                      I doubt there is even such an “anecdote” as I doubt Netto has ever read, Kant and Aristotle .
                      As usual, when it comes to the mendacious UMNO moves using Islam, Pakatan does not have the balls to confront it head on.
                      So what those of us who believe in a secular government get is this Opposition filled with “true Muslims” who make the appropriate noises when there is very little consequence/repercussions and remain mute, when action is called for.
                      My only joy from this is that one day perhaps soon, UMNO (like the rest of us pendatangs) is going to find itself on the wrong end of the Islamic scimitar it is toying with.

                      Conrad | Julai 6, 2013 at 8:17 am
                      Although I do appreciate this argument, I think it conflates a wide range of issues.
                      One of the biggest if not the biggest expressions of Non Malay anti Establishment militancy came in the form of Hindraf.
                      At first glance racial and religious divides seem like two different beasts but the reality here in Malaysia, is that racial issues are more often then not issues concerning religion.
                      I don not think that when MCA was top dog peace was kept. The process of Islamisation points to a culture of appeasement of Non Malay component members.
                      Of course now MCA has been infiltrated by the Evangelists which is why its propaganda organ would be more interested in highlighting the fact that an intrusive State religion which should be applicable to Muslims only intrudes on the lives of Non Muslims – read Christians.
                      Not that I think that this kind of Corporate Christianity is anathema to the kleptocratic agenda of UMNO. MCA is willing to be ravaged by the Rapture crowd because at the end of the day, they realize a new technocratic plutocracy is in the making.
                      “Just followed all my interns on twitter, made it compulsory for all of them to have twitter accounts.” – Ong Kian Ming

                      AK47 | Julai 7, 2013 at 12:50 am
                      We now see with our eyes what happens when a group of people from a 5,000 year old civilization that has been DE-TRIBALIZED. through urbanization and the NEP. And also, the decades of neglect and self-serving attitude of the MCA leadership. The bongo bongo voodoo choral and dancing troupes of Subang Jaya have now taken on a sinister meaning.

                      UMNO is not perfect and definitely no angel. I’m not a member and never interested to be one.

                      Prior to GE13, UMNO had suffered tremendous attacks by PR and its supporters. UMNO was bullied left right and centre and we would understand the motive behind it.

                      Anwar was booted out from UMNO and we would understand his motive behind all the attacks launch from his kampf.

                      PAS, the second best Malay party would always tries hard at winning the Malays either via genuine Islamic activism or faux fatwas.

                      DAP hates UMNO and knows that the Chinese high horse mentality and the hobby to bully and ridicule the Sakai in vernaculars is an opportunity to be fully utilized, thus hate UMNO aka always-spoon-fed-and-good-for-nothing-Malas-Malays.

                      Those reader up there were more or less implicate UMNO for the misunderstanding and racial divides driving Malaysians these days.

                      They may not be blaming UMNO solely like AK47 who would mostly blamed MCA but also pointed out NEP as being the determinant factor of the divides. UMNO promotes NEP, perhaps there lies the blame. But the rests are blunt in their comments, in one way or another blaming UMNO to a greater scheme of things, thus driving the racial divides further.

                      Perhaps that is true after all. Perhaps the flourishing of vernacular schools despite the Perlembagaan Persekutuan are testament to this. If I’m struggling to understand my neighbor because of the language barriers, how can there be dialogue? Its not rocket science is it?

                      How can there be understandings if there were no dialogues initiated for the communicative barriers we seems to impose on ourselves.

                      After more than 50 years of Merdeka, the proud nation can’t even decide on how to unite us all. Bahasa perpaduan is a failed project. I see no wrong for us to go ala Belgians or Swiss on this but, we are not even close.

                      So despite that we seems to see the fitnah narrative flying around in cyberspace by the PRs on UMNO and its doing.

                      Do we at least agree UMNO is at fault for not doing as much as they could in areas that it can, as we can see happening now, for the lack of motivation or whatever?

                      Helen, do you think it is one of UMNO agenda to create further misunderstanding among the different races in Malaysia to keep the status quo?

                      Or it simply the agenda of the PR and this is certainly has no basis whatsoever and I started to sound like LGE the much macho and much arrogant guanyin?

  11. If the MCA leadership had really done the work and did their sums since 1957 and not now in 2013, all these shouting about whatever Bills which came to the Dewan Rakyat, by minor officials of the MCA like the Singaporean Trojan Horse DAP, need not have taken place. It is because within the BN as led by the UMNO with the 12 component parties such Bills would have to be discussed and debated in Draft form first and then approved by all.

    All the shouting only show that the MCA is now AN ORPHAN whom nobody wants.

    1. re: “the MCA is now AN ORPHAN whom nobody wants”

      MCA asked for it by backstabbing the BN through allowing their machinery to promote the evangelista pollies.

      1. Ms H. You see how much the MCA has fallen in popular esteem. Like you, we as decent human beings must have some honourable virtues without which we are no better than the animals in the jungle.

    2. Yes! I mentioned about the NEP within the context of its push for urbanization and development which brought the young Chinese (and Malays) to the big towns and to a different lifestyle – of loneliness, of finding solace, of boredom, of finding more and more money. In this context, I did not mean the NEP was a dividing factor. Far from it. The NEP brought a lot of good. I am not using the NEP as a game-blamer.

      1. The NEP which began 10 years late due to the unfortunate demise of Tun Abdul Razak, created the urban Malay middle income group and expanded the Chinese middle income groups as well.

        1. I guess I misunderstood it. Sorry Sir and thanks for the explanation. Its hard to find non Malays who does not blame NEP. NEP is an easy blame to some.

          1. Islam 1st. No problem. There has always been a lot of goodwill between the Malays, the Chinese and the Indians and all. What the Opposition is bellyaching about is the ADMINISTRATIVE SCANDALS which is at the lower rung of a GOVERNMENT ADMINISTRATION, The BN as led by the UMNO with the 13 component parties has always formulated good Policies since 1957 especially between 1981 to 2003. Thereafter, somehow, the Administration forgot how to rule us and did all sorts of funny things which led to the present conundrum. There is nothing wrong with the BN, the Malays, the Chinese, the Indians and all. People have got to say something to earn a living. Once the Administration returns to normalcy there will be no more excuses for the Opposition to make noise.

  12. quote “The crux of the issue: MCA finds it most objectionable that minors are converted to Islam. MCA does not find it at all objectionable that minors are converted to Christianity.” unquote – Helen.

    My exact sentiment.

    I’ve heard statements from Cina parents who proclaimed that they wouldn’t mind their kids to convert to Christian, but they would earnestly object if their kids converted to Islam.

    Personally I think not only MCA feels that way, but MIC, Gerakan, DAP (or course), Dong Ziong and any non-Islam/Malay NGOs share the same sentiment with MCA.

    My stand in this matter is biased, I must admit. I am a Muslim, and I fully support a parent Muslim RIGHT to convert his or her children to Islam if the other parent is a non-Muslim. Not fair to non-Muslim? Tough luck!

  13. As to the question this thread poses, my answer is simple.

    Can a zombie find religion ?

  14. Ms H. I used to view Chinese Christians as the people who are holy and law abiding and speak softly with a kind touch and heart. I still do and believe the conventional churches have still got such good souls.

    LITTLE DID I EXPECT TO SEE A NEW LOT OF NEW CHRISTIANS WHO SPIT VULGARITIES, CONDEMN INNOCENTS, QUARREL ON DRUMMED UP ISSUES, OPENLY PUSHY AND SPEAK LOUDLY, SEX AND MONEY ONLY ETC. without any care in the World and for others who out-number them 10,000 : 1. Where all these are going to end no one can foretell !

    1. Sir, even the traditional church is no longer safe refuge from these new breed out to overwhelm you with their bible quotations & self righteous ways.

      I’ve renounced church activities beyond the prerequisite weekend masses & holy days of obligation in favor of making a small difference my own way. Amazing how a few canned coffee & Gardenia buns can brighten up a couple of cops’ day. And it’s good for the soul too, this kind of giving.

  15. Saya mula aktif dlm media sosial internet hanya 2-3 tahun kebelakangan ini, itu pun melalui facebook, juga telah digodam beberapa kali dari kedua-dua belah pihak ( pihak yg saya sokong dan yang saya bangkang )

    CSL sejak disabitkan dgn skandal seks sehingga hari ini kdg2 keputusan dan tindak tanduknya amat sumbang, MCA kini amat parah, perlu ada seseorang bangkit menyelamatkannya sebelum ia terus berkubur, CSL sepatutnya sudah lama disingkirkan terus dari arena politik negara, ramai pemimpin muda bangsa Cina yang boleh ambil alih tempatnya.

    Di Malaysia nampaknya sudah semakin ramai orang muda yang berfikiran terlalu liberal tak kiralah Melayu, Cina atau India nakkan kebebasan kononnya, ingat bahaya LGBT. Conversion Bill perlu dilihat secara meluas khasnya dipihak orang Melayu Islam

  16. FFC. I got an ‘A’ for Scriptures in the Cambridge Syndicate Examinations. I respect your valued comments. The way the new Chrisians are going about their thingy in this beloved Malaysia is the wrong way because it is based on the wrong premise.

    Real story on their quotations. One Tan Sri Datuk JP Dr XYZ blurted out to me a quotation from the Bible. Then, he looked across to his secretary to confirm whether he said it correctly. She looked at the Bible and told her Boss, he had indeed quoted every word correctly.

    It was not transparent. It was opaque.

    1. I suppose the more “radical” sheep like your good self & me would eventually experience these bible quoting kinds.

      Being a Gen X tail-ender, I never had the opportunity to take up bible studies despite 11 years in a Catholic Mission school. My bible knowledge is down to the prerequisite Sunday School sessions in preparation for Holy Communion, Confession & Confirmation.

      Having met one of these bible quote loving creatures at a weekend singles adult program, I was intentionally provoked with bible quotes due to my lack of interest in volunteering my services for their future program.

      As Christians are fond saying that in their greatest hour, they were guided by the Holy Spirit, so I shall say the same. A sharp retort came out from nowhere in the form of a bible verse. And he responded in kind & the ding dong battle went back & forth in front of a captive audience until I was “guided” to deliver the knockout blow by quoting “man does not live on bread alone”. Don’t ask me how it got there because to this day I have no recollection of how a quote on dedicating one’s life to God ended up with a quote from the temptation of Jesus in the desert.

      That spirited 15 minutes exchange made me realize that men can be such twisted beings that even the word of God is manipulated for self serving purposes. That has added to the skepticism I’ve had for the outwardly self proclaimed “holy” & “righteous” kind as they are usually anything but.

      Btw, have a pleasant Sunday afternoon sir.

  17. macamana pemimpin dap diorang tak takut tuhan.cakap berbelit-belit.tak serupa bikin.dalam christian tradisional yang saya jumpa orang kristian dulu-dulu suka bersedekah, menolong orang susah,lemah lembut.cakap tak kurang ajar macam mama dapster assyik kata orang lain low class.diorang ni bukan anutan mother teressa yang cintakan kedamaina,bencikan permusuhan.

    agama baru ktistian anutan jerusubang dan bukit jalil ,mintak duit dari orang ramai,bermegah-megah dengan bangunan,kereta mewah.makan di hotel mewah.nak tarik orang kaya dan ada duit.
    agaknya orang kr istian yang miskin dan merempat tak ada tempat untuk mereka.

    saya tengok golongan pengikut dan pemimpin dap kristian orang yang kurang ajar,kaki fitnah,menghina orang yang lemah.

    kalau tengok

  18. dan suka mulut bercabang,bermuka-muka.memang jauh lah kalau banding pemimpin kristian di Vatican yang sanggup bersusah payah untuk pengikutnya.bukan asyik nak mintak duit derma je nak buat majlis fitnah di hotel hotel besar.makan mewah mewah ..kalau tak percaya cuba bandingkan apa beza pastor di gereja Vatican city dengan gereja bukit Jalil.apa yang membezakan pemimpin mereka…

    1. The Evangelical movement is the new kid on the block when it comes to financial and religious (Christian) skulduggery . The Vatican has had centuries to master their craft and it is about time that they found a worthy (if inexperienced) adversary in the Evangelical movement.

      Aldrich Mansion belongs to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Providence and was used as a location in Meet Joe Black. Didn’t I say they put on a great show.

  19. In response to Islam1st post #65

    You really do not want to go down that road with me.

    In response to post Islam1st post # 88

    You are too caught up in the “ignorant” discourse. UMNO positions itself as the defender of a certain class of Malays. PAS presents its Islamic credentials every chance it gets and both try to outIslmaize each other.

    Establishment partisans claim Opposition supporters are ignorant while Opposition partisans claim the same of their counterparts. If you think that I think that voting for UMNO or PAS means the voter self identifies in a certain way, you would be correct but not for the reasons you think.

    Voting for MCA, MIC and other BN component parties is a vote for UMNO. Do not attempt to portray it as anything else.

    I have already told you whom I think the Malays should vote for and why. I believe that the only thing that voting Opposition means would be that the most basic principle of democracy, that it governments can and should be changed, would be fulfilled. I think this principle would benefit everyone esp. the Malays.

    While I do not disagree with your point on the Malay/Muslim power structure of PR, I will defiantly advocate PKR, PAS or the DAP as an option. Nobody in the alternative alliance is willing to chart a new course for the Malay community beyond offering fancy rhetoric so while we may get a superficial change in government it may lead to possible changes in the way how Malaysians but more importantly the Malay view their place in the System.

    Remember there will only be a change of Government if the Malays will it (not that I am ignorant of how the electoral system is set up but….). Politicians would be wise to remember this fact and not merely because they can rely on vote banks.

      1. As I have said in all my responses in nearly every thread in this blog – the Opposition. However if they (the Malays) think that UMNO has done right by them and for their community, by all means vote UMNO.

    1. ……governments can and should be changed, would be fulfilled. I think this principle would benefit everyone esp. the Malays

      This land have seen all sorts of skin colors over many centuries, Dutch, Portugese, Sulus, Arabs, British, Japanese and so on – and today, the presence of all sorts (and colors) of decendants of immigrants including hundreds of Thousands of foreign workers – Indons, Banglas, Mynmars, Viets, Cambodians, Africans, Thais.

      All landed here for one and the only one reason…(no need to spell you all know the reason why your ancestors decided to come here),

      Who are you to know what is best for the Malays? (Sultanate of Kedah was the earliest sultanate on the Malay Peninsula and one of the oldest Sultanates in the world, founded in 1136). You all too one day will merely be part of our cucu cicits history.

      1. Re “Who are you to know what is best for the Malays?”

        Who is anyone? UMNO ? PAS ? PKR?

        The first three claim to know what is best for the Malays, each believing that its policies are different from the other, ethnicity being the common ground.

        Although I appreciate the verbatim Wikipedia quote on the Kedah Sultanate, that particular historical fact points more to the diversity of the land and the hidden history than any narrative UMNO wishes to further.

        I know how the arrival of my ancestors benefitted this land (no need to spell out how) but really one day we will all join them as children of history.

        Since I was asked a question I answered it .

        Around here everyone seems to know what’s best for the Chinese, which makes your question hypocritical. If you think about it, my advise of changing governments would be the same to every community, which is a far more honest position.

        1. RE: “Around here everyone seems to know what’s best for the Chinese”

          I would look at it another way (i.e. whether glass is half empty or half full). The Chinese don’t know what’s bad for them and how they’re pissing off ‘all’ the other non-Chinese.

          1. Heh, well the same can be said of my answer wrt the Malays……I am trying my best to reboot my thinking, how am I doing. :D

            1. Give you a little tip: Take up Mahathir-watching as an avid hobby.

              You will see Malaysian realpolitik with clarity if you pay attention – objectively – to the Tun.

              1. Oh, you will find no arguments with me on that. Mahathir is all about realpolitik.

                But then there’s realpolitik and ensuring the trains run on time, and he has never been able to reconcile the two.

                1. Yes, but Dr M ordered the new trains tho’ he has not been able to fully make the stationmasters and train drivers meet his standard.

                  He himself is a punctual man.

                  The oppo are derailing the trains and putting two trains to run on the same track. There will be a collision.

                  1. Re “……tho’ he has not been able to fully make the stationmasters and train drivers meet his standard.”

                    He had his chance during his rule. He made so many other things happen. I don’t buy this excuse.

                    Re”The oppo are derailing the trains and putting two trains to run on the same track. There will be a collision.”

                    Democracy in action, although I would argue that the Opposition is just trying to hijack his trains for their own very similar agendas.

                    1. re: “He had his chance during his rule. He made so many other things happen. I don’t buy this excuse.”

                      Yes he did make so many other things happen but he can’t up-end a culture.

                      re: “the Opposition is just trying to hijack his trains”

                      Hahaha. The oppo is worse.

                      He built Putrajaya. They objected to the new admin capital as they do everything that BN does. But now Guan Eng is on the march himself to Putrajaya with the aim of unseating Umno and plonking himself in the 5th of Bangunan Perdana Putra.

        2. Conrad,
          You need to get to know us Bumiputras better, live, eat and interact everyday with us only then will you realise why UMNO and BN (excluding MCA) will always remain strong – despite having six different PMs heading it since Merdeka.

          Change? You truly seriously think DAP, PAS or KEADILAN will bring in changes? BTW who among them will lead pakatan, too many heads each with a completely different mission? LKS has been a loser since Merdeka. Anwar an UMNO ex-sacked Deputy PM. PAS?

          ……Two of my SIL are strong supporters, both married foreigners (Pakistani-UK citizen) and a Nepalese (Hindu convert) and all are Syiah fanatic followers. See the pattern?

          Just UMNO 88seats against Pakatan total of 89 – this 133seats will increase comfortably come GE14, thanks to the GE13 Chinese Tsunami and the hardworking Red Beans Army.

          1. Re : “……but he can’t up-end a culture.”

            Too easy, Helen. I would rather not waste space when I could be slagging off the DAP

            Re Rina’s “ ….why UMNO and BN (excluding MCA) will always remain strong”

            Well as someone who has advocated (professionally) on behalf of the Orang Asal, worked with the “Malays” from various economic background and at differing level both in government and the private sector, and currently involved in educational endeavors with mostly underprivileged Malay students I know very well why UMNO is going through a crisis of confidence and able to sustain itself even though they do not need Chinese backing politically.

            Re: “You truly seriously think DAP, PAS or KEADILAN will bring in changes?”

            In all my post here I have been skeptical of the UBAH pakatan could bring. However I do believe that a change of government is the first step that could be the opportunity for productive change. I do not see PR conflicting agendas as something negative, in fact I would argue that it is a safeguard against hegemonic interests.

            Re: “See the pattern?”

            Yes, however the Arabisation process happened under the UMNO watch. Read my thoughts and Helen’s in our Retro Malay exchange.

            Re: “….this 133seats will increase comfortably come GE14, thanks to the GE13 Chinese Tsunami and the hardworking Red Beans Army.”

            Maybe. But who knows. An election term is a long time in politics. Anything could happen

        3. Conrad,
          …..I know how the arrival of my ancestors benefitted this land (no need to spell out how) …

          Cerita dengan bebudak Tabika probably their mouth will keluaq ayaq lioq… sentence should have been “benifitted from this land”.

          Try speaking to an old Indon worker (labouring here for the last 30years) he too share similar feelings as you ie without the Indons Malaysia is nowhere. Now I see the eyes of Banglas also emitting similar messages. Come another 30years they will be singing the same tune as you.

          For a country to be successful, one very important factor is stability. Who provided that after the Brits left, even many years under Communists threats? Try going to Egypt or Africa and see what you all can do there now – agak you bole ke makan satu hari satu mangkuk moy in peace?

          1. Re:…” sentence should have been “benifitted from this land”.

            I can understand how it working both ways would cause agitation in you.

            Re: “….he too share similar feelings as you ie without the Indons Malaysia is nowhere.”

            Doubtful. The Indonesian subaltern history is different then mine and probably he became a Malaysian without as much effort as the “pendatangs” of my kind. The Indonesian experience does apply to some Bangladeshis, though. Why wait 30 years? The evidence if we are talking cheap foreign labor and the economic advantage it brings to the country is right in front of our eyes.

            Re: “For a country to be successful, one very important factor is stability”

            What makes you think that there would be no stability under PR ? PAS’s rule in Kelantan has been stable, so has PR’s rule in Penang, Selangor etc. As you yourself claim there is no real change coming from PR, hence whatever stability that UMNO offered would be in place with a PR rule.

            Re: “Try going to Egypt or Africa and see what you all can do there now – agak you bole ke makan satu hari satu mangkuk moy in peace?”

            Worked in Egypt and worked and traveled in various African countries after SPM. Did you know that many Malay(sians) study in the middle East region, one of the most unstable regions in the world. Why is that ? More importantly what are they bringing back
            with them?

            You really do not have a clue when you go on about stability but seem oblivious to the sub rosa influences that seeps into this country via UMNO and PAS.

  20. GOOD IDEA ALL ! MCA = MALAYSIAN CHRISTIAN ALLIANCE. The very nice building can house all the RM2 incorporated churches in the land. THE WONDERFUL TAN SRI LEE SAN CHOON HALL is just right for all the gatherings of the flock. Please invite me for the opening. With an evangelizing war chest of RM2 Billions or more, the former MCA and now the MALAYSIAN CHRISTIAN ALLIANCE WILL GO PLACES.

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