Pengarang Kristian The Nut Graph menuding jari dalam rencananya bertajuk ‘Allah issue: Who started it?‘
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Bawah: Grafik yang disiarkan oleh The Nut Graph\
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Perebutan kalimah Allah: Pandangan ekstrim media pembangkang
88 thoughts on “Perebutan kalimah Allah: Pandangan ekstrim media pembangkang”
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Helen Ang 
pokoknya allah dgn tuhan kristian attributes tak sama. why can’t they be sincere for once?. tuhan kristian = love, love & love tapi allah = perang, jihad & perintah bunuh kafirun.
re: “tuhan kristian = love, love & love tapi allah = perang, jihad & perintah bunuh kafirun”
Bagi evangelista DAP 3.0, kepalsuan Love, Love, Love tu setakat manis di bibir sahaja.
Namun dari segi matlamat mereka, ianya juga Perang & Jihad serta kemahuan untuk membunuh segala apa yang tidak sealiran dengan mereka atau yang menjadi batu penghalang kepada cita-cita dan hasrat mereka, bermula dengan “kuburkan Umno”.
” bermula dengan “kuburkan Umno”.
bukankah umno (baru) sendiri yg bagi peluang? (umno 46 dah pun terkubur kerana berperang sama sendiri).
tapi apa susah susah la…kita reverse the situation. just ask the evangelista dap to seek clarification from the vatican as to whether god is allah or lord is allah. jais & main can do the same.
Your typo: You mean MAIS.
Don’t want picky readers to say that the misspelling disengajakan ,)
MAIN = Majlis Agama Islam Negeri = Refers to all states
Ok, my bad. Didn’t realise …
it’s ok helen, you not bad at all.
So you instantly equate dap with evangelists and attempt to mix politics and religion..true to your moniker…
Parkiam!!!
Aney or Apek can change words/sentences in their Bibles according to what they feel suits them best? Is this the reason why they cannot decide which Bible to use for all Christians? As per wiki there are over 41,000 reported sects in Christianity.. hmmmm kenapa nama Tuhan mereka pun tak seragam?
Imagine if newly converted Christians from “one never ending land” with mother tongue language that translates “CLOWN” to best describe their God, imagine them calling their God “CLOWN”?
re: “hmmmm kenapa nama Tuhan mereka pun tak seragam?”
Bukan sekadar orang yang tak pasti nama Tuhan mereka tetapi nama Tuhan agama lain pun mereka sedap-sedap kebas.
‘sedap-sedap kebas.’
Right on!
itulah dia manusia yang keliru….pada hari kiamat nanti apabila bumi bergoncang hebat….manusia berada dalam kebingungan atau keliru.
tetapi, belum sampai waktu berkenaan, manusia jenis ini sudah pun ramai kebingungan. malang sekali mereka cuba membawa kebingungan mereka untuk membingungkan orang lain….!
The fact is that Christianity is an evil reglion of the European. responsible for the colonisation and rape of the many natives all over the world. The bibile is ban in US scholls shows how european view the jewss religion.
Let assume that the Christian had “good intend” to save people from hell when they tried to use kalimah Allah into their malay Bible. But before that it is the Muslim duty to advice them of why we cannot allow them to use the kalimah Allah for their malay Bible.
The main reason is because all Christian believed that their nameless GOD in the Holy Bible have a SON. When the Catholic church use Allah name in their malay Bible, they are actually ascribing that Allah now may have offspring similar to man and animal. Nauzubillah. (This is the main reason why we will never never agreed to your CFM appeal to use Allah name in the Christian malay bible).
The Christian will never agreed to any Muslim reasoning but if they think whether Allah is happy about this. They can refer the Al Quran sura Maryam 19:88 – 19:92
(19:88) They claim: “The Most Compassionate Lord has taken a son to Himself.” (19:89) Surely you have made a monstrous statement. (19:90) It is such a monstrosity that heavens might well-nigh burst forth at it, the earth might be cleaved, and the mountains fall (19:91) at their ascribing a son to the Most Compassionate Lord.
The dire warning was there long before CFM was established or before any Sabahan OR Sarawakian Christian or Rev Dr Eu Hong Seng and Bishop Pakiam was even born into this world. Clearly Allah is very very angry indeed. Want to know why? – this is a blasphemy towards the Creator. WE MUSLIM HAVE EVERY REASON TO FEEL UPSET ABOUT !
Even the Holy Bible forbid it! The scriptures clearly remind the christian never to change any words or meaning in your OWN sacred book. You may find the warning in the verses from Deutronomy 4:2. OR Revelation 22:18 OR Proverbs 30:5 Holy Bible.
Deutronomy 4:2.
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you
OR
“…Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a LIAR. ” …………….. Revelation 22:18.
OR
Don’t add to his words, or he will rebuke you, and you will be shown to be a LIAR…….Proverbs 30:5
CONCLUSIVELY DIDN’T THE MALAYSIAN CHRISTIAN REALIZE THAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY CHALLENGING THEIR VERY OWN SACRED BOOK??
Thank You!
It’s 3.35am. You don’t sleep meh?
Been busy for a while. Now a bit free. What else, got some catch up to do. You, baru bangun is it?
re: “You, baru bangun is it?”
I’m like New York, the City That Never Sleeps :D
Money also never sleeps wor!
;D
Anti Bebal
I dislike arguing scripture but to allow a nincompoop like you to get away with such manipulation of the bible verses is not okay either. Anyone can do a word search on the bible and take the word out of context.
Quote: “Even the Holy Bible forbid it! The scriptures clearly remind the christian never to change any words or meaning in your OWN sacred book.”
The command ‘never change any words’ does not refer to the translation of the existing words into another language. The same words and verses had been translated into more than 500 languages.
Translating the bible into another language ensure people can read the bible and understand the word for themselves. Knowledge is afterall the best defense against those with ill intention to mislead.
True, I am sure there will be more like Jim Jones and his followers coming out with their own set of translations and practices in the name of Christianity.. In Malaysia sudah ada one ‘Rainbow Family’ who even wanted to create a new race for their kids?
Rainbow Dihatiku-LGE
Rina
People like Jim Jones will not be the first nor the last. Deviants who manipulate others in the name of God are plentiful and they indiscriminately hail from all faiths.
The only way to counter all these imposters is to equip ourselves with the truth and knowledge. Ignorance is not an excuse.
Cheers
In the eyes of James Jones and his followers the other group of christian are the deviants too and who manipulate others in the name of God. Don’t you think so?
sabbas48
I have no comments. To say I comprehend the logics behind the minds of individuals who had no reservations about dying for a
man who claimed he is ‘God’, would be less than honest.
If you ask me to simply hazard a guess, I would say Jim Jones’ followers don’t consider themselves Christians.
HH
HH
ref: a man (Jim Jones) who claimed he is ‘God’.
Maybe he is ‘God’ transformed into a human (in Jim Jones) with the intentions to salvage deviant christian who claimed Jesus, a human, as son of ‘God’. Whereas nothing in the scriptures say Jesus is the son of ‘God’.
Don’t you think ‘God ‘ can do wonders?
sabbas48
Quote: “Maybe he is ‘God’ transformed into a human (in Jim Jones) with the intentions to salvage deviant christian…”
Is that your hypothesis of Jesus Christ? No, Jim Jones cannot fulfill the messianic criteria. The messiah had to be from the line of King David and of virgin birth.
Quote: :”Whereas nothing in the scriptures say Jesus is the son of ‘God”
I assume your implied ‘scriptures’ refers to the Old Testament/Torah. Yes, there is. The coming of Jesus was foretold in the book of Isaiah.
Quote: “Don’t you think ‘God ‘ can do wonders?”
I see no point you asking me what I think when you had already come with a preconditioned mindset. Please skip the hypocrisy.
Cheers
HH
Did you see me manipulating any of the verses? Mind you the verses were as is ! Translating and making changes of the meanings of the words carries two different meanings. Perhaps the only “CRIME” on my part was to highlight the above biblical verses to show the contradiction that have been done by your Catholic church priest and the Christian media.
However I do agree with you that knowledge is the best defense. But too bad for you HH bcoz both the Quranic and Biblical verses and meaning above are againts the ill intention to mislead by the Catholic church wannabe scribes.
Anti Bebal
I think the issue you are bringing up is not the translation of the scripture text, but more towards the interpretation of the texts and the eventual parting of the knowledge from the texts to the masses via preachers or individuals who habored less than honorable intentions.
Well, it has happened. True. To individuals and in isolated cases.
But, I don’t buy into the mass conspiracy theory of the Catholic church attempting to mislead. For the record, I am not a Catholic.
The Roman Catholics in its earlier glory days when they were state sanctioned, did more harm to Christianity than it did good. They converted many into followers, but few believers.
Another religion is fast repeating the fallacy of the early Christian church by not separating faith and state.
Cheers
A good piece from Jacqueline. Personally, I stop myself from commenting on faith issues though I do have my own thoughts. I keep reminding myself it is quite pointless to argue when it comes to faith matters but I don’t deny myself the satisfaction either of reading other people’s take, especially those who speak up for the Christian community.
Honestly, I have no objection when political figures are criticized for their action or inaction, work performance, decision or flawed arguments. But, they should never be judged on the basis of their faith alone.
Personally, I have no complains about political leaders being shaped by their faiths. I don’t think this has to be a bad thing. Just so to be clear, I don’t exclusively mean Christianity. The common denominator in all faiths are the quest for justice and a respect for fellow human beings.
Despicable Christian Extremist trying to pit Orang Asli against the Melayu. Semua nak kutip. Daripada Borneo natives sampai la kepada sepupu Orang Melayu! Shame! Nothing but shame for these sneaky shape shifters!
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/in-malaysia-the-orang-asal-feel-far-away-from-home
It is perhaps proven that what has been done by MKL may not be suitable enough for them, for they, given a choice would prefer their traditional way of living instead of, perhaps, IKEA.
The last time I checked when Mutiara Damansara and Damansara Perdana are being developed, the Orang Asli, despite living in Damansara Perdana in their bungalows, had been oblivious to the developed surroundings.
They could not appreciate the aesthetics brought by IKEA, so to speak nor do they know how to ‘lepak’ around the newly developed area apart from pergi kerja dan balik kerja.
They seems rather lost anyway on weekends, only manage to loiter around, berjalan ke hulu ke hilir and I doubt it that they are lost while trying to locate the cinema.
I supports fully the protection of their Tanah Adat against any capitalists within UMNO or otherwise for they must be allowed to live they way they wanted to. From the MKL episode at least we have this to learn from.
And here to pitting the Sabahans against the Peninsular Malaysians.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/sabahans-say-time-to-clear-haze-of-fuzzy-history
‘As a Malaysian from Sabah, I feel excluded, as we are always treated like the stepchild,” declares Goh.’
Keeping the narratives going indeed!
‘Goh wants to see her son grow up in a competitive environment rather than being fed with affirmative policies. She also adds that recent events ranging from rampant shootings to the argument over the word Allah have diluted her feelings of being Malaysian.’
Attacking the Melayus in one go. How does that make the Melayus feel, less of a Malaysians too, since everybody seems to be picking on them and their ideals?
By fighting over the Allah issue and asking us to makan babi for Buka Puasa, would not that make us too, the Malay/Muslim, felt rather less of a Malaysian?
Sya lama tinggal dSabah, rumah dkwasan 98% bangsa Mr Goh. Their ways of life there lebih terok compared to their cousins in Semenanjung.. they HARDLY interact wth the locals AT ALL.
Their employees ramai dari kaum PATI (Indons and Filipines aja).
Betul tak Mr Goh?
Tu la, its all about how they feel less Malaysians due to this and that and that…But what about us? Hello we are still here…
Dear Helen,
There are growing trends by left wing media like tmi and chronicles to quote and play out of context khutbah jumaat. They then spin to inflame the non Muslims to be angry and again “questioned” their so call miserable life.
For example a khutbah jumaat recently calling the Muslims to unite on this Allah issue and reminded the Moslems that Islam is a superior religion. They use this line to tell non Muslims that it is insulting other religions.
Again they think we are stupid. There is nothing wrong for an imam to tell the Muslims congregation to unite for Islam and exhorting that Islam has a superior truth. Its the same with a priest exhorting the Christians in a church that Christianity has truth superior than others and to unite. Every follower of religion believes their religion is the true path otherwise there’s no sense to follow the religion.
So this insidious left wing media purposely pick the khutbah jumaat to condemn the religious authority as wrong but what the Christians do is ok. Jahat betul.
Ellese,
re: “So this insidious left wing media purposely pick the khutbah jumaat to condemn the religious authority as wrong but what the Christians do is ok. Jahat betul.”
TMI, M’sia Chronicles and how could you leave out the Jerusubang paper yang sejahat-jahatnya?!
I wouldn’t call them left wing though. That’s because they are not left wing/liberal to begin with. They are actually very rightist. Look at the way they present themselves to their core constituents. But of course their rivals say they are left wing because that is what they want their rivals to see themselves.
You better question your view/assumptions on these “leftists”. Appearing leftist does not mean they are actually leftist. Just look at the Democrats and Republicans in the USA. The talk in Washington DC has always been “The USA has 2 right wings, one with the name Democrat while the other is Republican”.
Helen,
How can you ensure that I vote for 1 reader? It looks like one can vote more one time though I have not tried that. Remember the J-Star Poll debacle last time where they have to retract the result.
This poll blocks multiple voting. I’m presuming it’s above board. The reliability lies with the service provider. I have little control.
Ok. Let me try. Nanti timbul pulak isu pengundi Bangla…
Yes. They block it.
masih boleh dimanipulate helen… undi dari 3 devices (lappy, tab, hp) :)
Okay, biar tu setiausaha akhbar sibuk sikit.
Jangan lupa Karim Raslan @ the Publicist in the entourage.
Ok lah. Jangan pula diorang makan gaji buta, kot.
POLL RESULTS
For the record (time-tracking):
309 ‘No’ votes or 82% nay to KJ
68 votes or 18% aye to KJ
Matlamat Utama tetap ingin mendapatkan undi daripada penduduk Sabah dan Sarawak yang beragama Kristian dengan mencetuskan perasaan bermusuhan keagamaan yang sensitif.
Helen,
Mengapa perlu penganut kristian menggunakan nama Allah melainkan untuk melihat sejauhmana kesabaran kami.
Isu ini akan menjahanamkan negara kita. Akan terhapuslah kebanggaan bagaimana kita berjaya hidup aman damai walaupun berbeza bangsa dan agama.
Saya sentiasa cuba mengelak dari memberi ulasan apabila puan menulis berkaitan kalimah Allah ini kerana hati saya amat marah.
Saya ingin menegaskan bahawa saya tiada masaalah untuk bermandi darah jika penganut kristian terus terusan berkeras dalam isu ini.
tuan ibni….dalam kes ini saya tidak fikir penganut kristian di semenanjung yang beria-ia berkeras….saya percaya ianya dipromo oleh ketua evangelis dengan didokong oleh evangelis dalam DAP itu sendiri.
alasan Malaysia Timur yakni Sabah dan Sarawak serta Indonesia telah lama menggunakan kalimah ini tidak bermakna Melayu Semenanjung mesti terima kaedah yang sama….
bagi saya, semua ini adalah agenda untuk memporak-porandakan perpaduan antara kaum di negara ini di mana matlamat sebenar mereka adalah bermotifkan politik untuk mengubah kuasa politik di negara ini…
Setuju pada mulanya penganut kristian tidak terfikirpun idea gila ini namun apabila dipromosi oleh DAP, mereka mula bertindak untuk berjuang mebggunakan nama Allah ini.
Statement secara terang oleh Duta Vatican walaupun kemudian dilihat seperti sudah ditarik balik namun cukup menunjukkan gerakan penganut kristian ini sudah sampai keperingkat Vatican.
Why bring back an article written in 2010? Sudah habis modal nak cucuk orang ke Cik Helen?
Bukan! Sebab Helen tau, lu orang masih trolling dia punya blog maa!
hahahaha…masalahnya lubangkecikkelubangbesarke….lubang dah pecahhh!!!
I guess it must be the daily consumption of people like you then, where is Helen? She’s too shy to respond, need support from macai melayu bodoh macam Saudara?
Ya lor, wat to do we macai bodo kerja macam anjing wat! We lurve jadi kuli Helen…
So what brings orang pandai macam you kat sini?
saya tak rasa marahpun bila dikatakan bodoh… semua orang lahir ke dunia ni tanpa tahu apa-apa…. setiap Ilmu itu milik Allah SWT….
setahu saya, orang bijak takkan layan orang bodoh macam saya…. dan oleh kerana itu, apakah tahap kebodohan lubangkeciklubangbesar itu sendiri tidak berada dalam kelas yang sama?
alahai… dulang paku serpih…..!
Well yes it is UMNO’s fault. UMNO controls the propagation of Islam in this country. To argue otherwise would be daft. Is the DAP making use of this issue? Well yes they are. To argue otherwise would be daft. Assigning blame by conflating issues is also daft.
However conflating issues is what politics is all about. UMNO through the Arabization process attempted to maintain hegemony and create a dominant Muslim polity (Bumiputra) together with a Malay polity using Islam as the glue which binds them.
Meanwhile the colonial history of proselytizing and the sub altern histories of various communities is rearing its head on the present day reality of UMNO’s continuing attempt to bolster a myopic/distorted history of this country.
The DAP having discovered a rich vein of discontentment within the Christian religious community and lets face facts, other non Muslim communities, has been exploiting issues such as these to further their own political agendas.
This is ironic since it is the Evangelical movement which has benefitted the most from UMNO’s passive/aggressive posture towards the rise of Christian Evangelism, no doubt fuelled by a filthy lucre.
Adherents thinking their Religion is superior to others is nothing new but when one Religion is controlled by the State, this takes on a whole different tone.
re: “UMNO controls the propagation of Islam in this country”
No.
The Sultans are the heads of Islam in their respective states. The Jabatan-Jabatan Agama are state agencies that recognize the Sultans as the highest temporal religious authority within their state jurisdiction. That’s why the Sultan of Johor boleh bertitah over the Sedili surau and the Sultan of Selangor bertitah his displeasure over the [risk of] politicking taking place in his state’s mosques.
The YDP Agong is the head of Islam for the Federation and in those states without Sultans. Umno is not the head of Islam anywhere.
The state muftis are powerful in their own right. The Mufti of Perak, for example, is a Tan Sri and in no way beholden to Umno, and he would not hesitate to thumb his nose at Umno if the situation warrants.
Let’s take the most recent Jakim khutbah quoted in my blog. The Islamic dept is making a stand that is contrary to the one taken by the Umno president as BN chairman, i.e. the 10-point agreement on kalimah Allah brokered by Idris Jala.
Reflect on all the other public expressions of Islam, such as the Young Ustaz Search reality TV show, the popularity of nasyid groups and Mawi as a pop idol. These are not things that Umno micro manage.
Or just flip through a week’s worth of Utusan and examine all their Bicara Agama columns and articles. Again these ‘men of the cloth’ (more precisely, men of the jubah and serban) do not answer to Umno.
On the other hand, Umno has to tiptoe around the power of Utusan as a pressure group which includes the kind of front page headlines that the paper plays up (“Apa lagi orang Cina mahu?”), its Awang Selamat editorials and the direction that the paper sets, incl. on defending the faith and kalimah Allah.
In fact, I’d suggest that you Google the Utusan op-eds on the kalimah Allah issue or better still, buy a copy of the paper tomorrow and the day after (the Allah case is coming up for hearing tomorrow in the Court of Appeal).
Then you’d realise you’re off-mark to claim that “Umno controls the propagation of Islam in this country”. It’s as off-mark as blaming everything on Umno’s fault.
Re:”No.”
Nonsense.
The powers of the Sultans derive from the benefice of UMNO, which is why over the years UMNO has curtailed the powers of the Sultan. In a similar vein, the so called 10 point agreement was a compromise on the “Allah” issue was brokered by UMNO and not the Sultans.
Similarly the various Religious departments working with civil departments, carry out agendas of Islamization not on behest of the Sultans but rather as proxies for the UMNO State. An example of this wrt to minority communities would be the Jabatan Orang Asli and the various State Relgious departments. The citicims that UMNO controls the message of the sermons and that UMNO places memebers in Surau councils further indicates, the power of the UMNO hegemon over Islam in this country.
Signalling out various State Islamic muftis as impediments to UMNO hegemonic role is factually wrong. Islamic personalities like various UMNO warlords have no problem biting the hands that feeds them but who are not independent of the System.
Nothing the Perak state mufti says detracts from the UMNO Islamic narrative but is the natural extreme conclusion of it. If the mufti of Perak did pose a threat to the UMNO hegemonon, he would be quickly dispatched as other Islamic deviant groups have been over the years.
The Jakim stand on the Allah issue in contradiction of an UMNO PM points more to the split within his own party rather than any power on the part of the Relgious departments. The fact that these department make all the pronouncements they want but the State rarely enforces these “edicts” again points to the disparity in power which favours UMNO over the Religious departments.
However there is also another propagandistic elements to this issue, as in the Non Malays are warned of the Islamic imperatives through these organs while the UMNO state appears to be the moderate element in the System.
Your reference to Islamic pop culture and the fact that UMNO does not micro manage this element is misleading. The power of the State comes in to play when it sanctions, as the UMNO State does when it sanctions deviant groups that it claims is a threat to Islam, or when it does not decide to go the Sharia route in terms of it pursuit of justice.
All those Religious columns in various Malay periodicals points to the fact that UMNO allows such speech in an attempt to engineer a specific kind of Malay/Muslim polity. To argue that this displays the power of the Mullahs is akin to saying that because American pop culture is so readily available here, UMNO must be a proxy to the United States.
To describe Utuan Malaysia as a pressure group is disingenuous. That is akin to saying that the Rocket and the Star are pressure groups. Furthermore your attempt to portray them as a pressure group is nonsensical because, Utusan itself says it is there, to spin and fabricate for UMNO, Rais Yatim has said that it is part of the State propaganda organs, Zam chided the MCA for not controlling its propaganda organs like the way how UMNO controls theirs. To claim that Utusan is not using Islam to stir up Religious sentiment as UMNO does but instead attempt to portray them as some sort of autonomous pressure group is farcical. ‘Apa lagi Cina mahu” is just another expression of “Chinese Tsunami”.
Which does not mean they do not go beyond the limit. After all it was former PM Badawi who warned them not to come crying to him if they were sanctioned by the State for what they published, ignoring the fact that what they publish is what they think UMNO wants.
To attempt to portray UMNO as subservient to Islam in this country is absurd. To attempt to portray UMNO as faultless or minimize their blame in this, pointing instead to propaganda organs or some sort of independent Islamic thought in this country is blatantly misleading.
re: “The powers of the Sultans derive from the benefice of UMNO, which is why over the years UMNO has curtailed the powers of the Sultan.”
If you think that the “powers of the Sultans derive from the benefice of Umno”, then you’re truly in Dapsterland. The Sultans have the power to buang negeri his subjects, and that includes you, me and the Umno Datuk if we live in a state ruled by one of the Raja-Raja Melayu. The Umno Datuk does not have the power to buang negeri his ruler.
The Malaya agreement was signed between Queen Elizabeth II and the Raja-Raja Melayu. It was not signed between QE II and Umno.
re: “In a similar vein, the so called 10 point agreement was a compromise on the ‘Allah’ issue was brokered by UMNO and not the Sultans”.
B’cos it is the native Christians in Sabah & Sarawak who use the ‘Allah’ word and neither Sabah nor Sarawak has a Sultan. Duh …
re: “Similarly the various Religious departments working with civil departments, carry out agendas of Islamization not on behest of the Sultans but rather as proxies for the UMNO State.”
Oh really? have you ever worked in any religious department? Have you ever worked in any civil department that carries out Islamic activities?
When Teo Nie Ching received her warning from MAIS, the department was clear that it was adhering to the Sultan’s instruction that mosques should not be politicised. In no way did MAIS indicate that it received instructions from Umno.
In your claims that the religious authorities are carrying out the behest of Umno, you are implicitly questioning the authority of each of the Raja-Raja Melayu as the heads of Islam in their respective states. You do all this and you still wonder why Muslims have very little patience left for Christians and their behaviour?
re: “An example of this wrt to minority communities would be the Jabatan Orang Asli and the various State Relgious departments. The citicims that UMNO controls the message of the sermons and that UMNO places memebers in Surau councils further indicates, the power of the UMNO hegemon over Islam in this country.”
Hullo! The khutbahs are written by the ustaz(s) like the ones in Jakim who drafted the khutbah I quoted in the previous posting.
You declare that “Umno controls the message of the sermons”. Let’s examine who are the faces of Umno, shall we? Nazri Aziz and his party-going, cigar-chomping son Nedim. Bung Moktar. KJ. JJ. H2O. Adnan Yaakob. KuLi. Rafidah Aziz (who’s still a member of the supreme council until the PAU election). You think these people write Friday sermons?
re: “Signalling out various State Islamic muftis as impediments to UMNO hegemonic role is factually wrong.”
Oh? How is it factually wrong? And what counter claim can you make to show that you are factually correct?
re: “Islamic personalities like various UMNO warlords have no problem biting the hands that feeds them but who are not independent of the System.”
Pray tell which Umno warlord is an Islamic personality and what hand did they bite?
re: “Nothing the Perak state mufti says detracts from the UMNO Islamic narrative but is the natural extreme conclusion of it. If the mufti of Perak did pose a threat to the UMNO hegemonon, he would be quickly dispatched as other Islamic deviant groups have been over the years.”
In what ways are you equating the Perak Mufti with deviant groups? You think Umno folks like Nazri Aziz, Rafidah Aziz, Raja Nong Chik, Ahamd Shabery Cheek & Co. go out to identify who the Islamic deviant groups are?
re: “The Jakim stand on the Allah issue in contradiction of an UMNO PM points more to the split within his own party rather than any power on the part of the Relgious departments. The fact that these department make all the pronouncements they want but the State rarely enforces these “edicts” again points to the disparity in power which favours UMNO over the Religious departments.”
Oh, so you’re saying Umno holds the religious power. When did Umno ever have the power to enforce or not to enforce any religious edict in the first place? Umno is a political party like MCA is a political party like MIC is a political party like DAP is a political party.
And Umno is a party of 3.5 million members. Why in the world would any Umno cadre want to go out and catch culprits who break religious law (e.g. Muslims who eat during fasting month)
re: “However there is also another propagandistic elements to this issue, as in the Non Malays are warned of the Islamic imperatives through these organs while the UMNO state appears to be the moderate element in the System.”
So now you’re claiming that Umno appears to be moderate but it is not (and in the same vein may I add that DAP appears to be evangelical but it is not).
Isn’t it easier to believe that if Umno appears to be the moderate element in the System, then it really is — the principle of Occam’s razor, rather than to believe that Umno may seem to be the moderate but Conrad swears that Umno’s appearances are deceiving.
re: “The power of the State comes in to play when it sanctions, as the UMNO State does when it sanctions deviant groups that it claims is a threat to Islam, or when it does not decide to go the Sharia route in terms of it pursuit of justice.”
(1) Please give a concrete example of a deviant group that “Umno” sanctions.
(2) Explain what you mean by Umno deciding not to go the Sharia route, and whether to think Umno is good or bad for deciding not to go the Sharia route.
re: “All those Religious columns in various Malay periodicals points to the fact that UMNO allows such speech in an attempt to engineer a specific kind of Malay/Muslim polity.”
And you think that Umno has the power to command Utusan not to publish religious columns? Or alternatively, if you think that Umno encourages Utusan to publish religious columns, please share with us who it is in Umno who has encouraged Utusan to do so.
re: “To argue that this displays the power of the Mullahs is akin to saying that because American pop culture is so readily available here, UMNO must be a proxy to the United States.”
If American pop culture is so readily available here, then it shows there is a wide and receptive market for it. If Islamic pop culture like Mawi and Maher Zain is popular, then it similarly shows that there is a wide and receptive market for it. Why fingerpoint Umno for the popularity of Mawi and other Islamic icons (like nasyid ‘pop’ groups and reality TV ustaz talents)?
re: “To describe Utusan Malaysia as a pressure group is disingenuous. That is akin to saying that the Rocket and the Star are pressure groups.”
Let’s ignore the Rocket for the moment as the party organ is an apple to orange comparison. Please elaborate on your comparison (or non-comparison) of Utusan and Star and what you’re implying by their similarities (or dissimilarities).
re: “Furthermore your attempt to portray them as a pressure group is nonsensical because, Utusan itself says it is there, to spin and fabricate for UMNO”
You’re easy at throwing the “NONSENSICAL” word at me. Do you think you’ve been talking solid sense? I don’t think so.
re: “To claim that Utusan is not using Islam to stir up Religious sentiment as UMNO does but instead attempt to portray them as some sort of autonomous pressure group is farcical.”
Utusan is more autonomous than you think.
And as to your claim that the idea of the paper acting as a pressure group is farcical — you do throw words like “nonsense”, “nonsensical” and “farcical” very easily, it’s easy for you to resort to dismissive labelling as an argumentative device, yah? — I’ve already challenged you to buy a copy of Utusan tomorrow and the day after, and examine its coverage of the kalimah Allah hearing, and whether Awang Selamat manages to exert pressure or not.
re: “Which does not mean they do not go beyond the limit. After all it was former PM Badawi who warned them not to come crying to him if they were sanctioned by the State for what they published, ignoring the fact that what they publish is what they think UMNO wants.”
On the contrary, Badawi is history. Whereas Najib attended the Utusan Raya open house. So between Badawi and Utusan, which one do you think is more relevant? You think Utusan published what Umno (Badawi) wanted, meh?
re: “To attempt to portray UMNO as subservient to Islam in this country is absurd.”
And there you go again. Throwing words like “nonsense”, “nonsensical”, “farcical” and now “absurd”. I’m really not impressed that you’re talking sense in reading the ‘Islamic’ situation at all.
Re: “The Umno Datuk does not have the power to buang negeri his ruler.”
Here you go again, willfully misreading arguments. Whoever said anything about the UMNO Datuk ? It is the UMNO state that takes away citizenship, or PR status or anything it wants to within the confines of the law.
Re;” The Malaya agreement was signed between Queen Elizabeth II and the Raja-Raja Melayu. It was not signed between QE II and Umno.”
Hilarious and who do you think the Queen was signing the agreement on behalf? Who do you think the Raja-Raja Melayu was signing the agreement on behalf? Who do you think the British was negotiating with in terms of handing over of power? What role do you think the Constitution plays with regards to the Royals and democratically elected parties?
Re:” B’cos it is the native Christians in Sabah & Sarawak who use the ‘Allah’ word and neither Sabah nor Sarawak has a Sultan. Duh …”
Again who made the decision for this agreement? The Sultans and emissaries from the Royal palaces or you know, the lawfully (or so we are told, since you seem to think we are living in Feudal times) elected UMNO administration ?
Re;” Oh really? have you ever worked in any religious department? Have you ever worked in any civil department that carries out Islamic activities?”
You don’t have to work in a civil department to be aware of the religious activities that is carried out on behest of the government. All you need is to work with Orang Asli Rights groups, Non Malays who petition the courts because of conversion issues or burial disputes and other such activities. All which I have been professionally involved in.
But then again on another thread you conceded that UMNO was raising the race and religion cards….correction, further raising those cards. How do you think they have been doing this? Wishful thinking?
Re: “When Teo Nie Ching received her warning from MAIS, the department was clear that it was adhering to the Sultan’s instruction that mosques should not be politicised. In no way did MAIS indicate that it received instructions from Umno. “
And neither do they indicate they receive any instruction when Opposition figures are denied entry into mosques.
Re:”In your claims that the religious authorities are carrying out the behest of Umno, you are implicitly questioning the authority of each of the Raja-Raja Melayu as the heads of Islam in their respective states. You do all this and you still wonder why Muslims have very little patience left for Christians and their behaviour?”
But of course when UMNO curtails the powers of the Sultan this goes unnoticed by the very same Malays who you claim to speak on behalf off, as if they and only they are Muslims whose opinions matter or that they represent the whole of the Muslim polity.
Re;”You declare that “Umno controls the message of the sermons”. Let’s examine who are the faces of Umno, shall we? Nazri Aziz and his party-going, cigar-chomping son Nedim. Bung Moktar. KJ. JJ. H2O Adnan Yaakob. KuLi. Rafidah Aziz (who’s still a member of the supreme council until the PAU election). You think these people write Friday sermons?”
You think these people write their own speeches ? This is laughable. As if UMNO does not have the right wing element within their party to promote such agendas or writers in their public relations units to come with such sermons. What a nonsensical argument to put forward.
Re:”Oh? How is it factually wrong? And what counter claim can you make to show that you are factually correct?”
The counter claim is that religious organization or individuals who pose a threat to UMNO/Islam have always been put in cold storage. Please tell us what those you mentioned have said that was anything but a threat to the Non Malays communities here in Malaysia.
Re;” Pray tell which Umno warlord is an Islamic personality and what hand did they bite?”
Um, you do realize that the sentence was “Islamic personalities like various UMNO warlords…”. So why do you think I have to point out a warlord who is an Islamic personality?
Re:”In what ways are you equating the Perak Mufti with deviant groups? You think Umno folks like Nazri Aziz, Rafidah Aziz, Raja Nong Chik, Ahamd Shabery Cheek & Co. go out to identify who the Islamic deviant groups are? “
Are you having trouble reading? I never equated the Perak Mufti with deviant groups. What I said was that if they strayed from the UMNO Islamic narrative they would be destroyed like any other deviant group.
Re:” Oh, so you’re saying Umno holds the religious power. When did Umno ever have the power to enforce or not to enforce any religious edict in the first place? Umno is a political party like MCA is a political party like MIC is a political party like DAP is a political party.”
Now this is getting ridiculous. UMNO is not just a political party. UMNO is the Federal government. Furthermore, it has remained the Federal government for decades. It has made it perfectly clear that it is the only voice in government. If UMNO wanted to enforce any religious edict to could.
Re “And Umno is a party of 3.5 million members. Why in the world would any Umno cadre want to go out and catch culprits who break religious law (e.g. Muslims who eat during fasting month)”
Because they have Religious authorities to do that , if they really wanted to.
Re:”So now you’re claiming that Umno appears to be moderate but it is not (and in the same vein may I add that DAP appears to be evangelical but it is not).”
Yes and I am also claiming that UMNO uses Religion to cow the Non Malay population into submission. This really does not work now for a variety of reasons. As for your potshot at the DAP, I have made similar observations before.
Re:” Isn’t it easier to believe that if Umno appears to be the moderate element in the System, then it really is — the principle of Occam’s razor, rather than to believe that Umno may seem to be the moderate but Conrad swears that Umno’s appearances are deceiving.”
If UMNO was really a moderate then why would have they been raising the stakes in the race and Religion cards ? Of course, the total change in the culture of the Malays, has nothing to do with UMNO. Helen would have us believe that UMNO is just another political party which had no role to play in the reality that the Malay community has changed or that they have any influence in Religious departments. I suppose Occam’s razor has a different meaning in her world.
Re:” (1) Please give a concrete example of a deviant group that “Umno” sanctions.”
The most obvious example would the Al-Arqam group. But I forget, that you assume UMNO is a mere political party and has no influence with the Religious department.
Re:” 2) Explain what you mean by Umno deciding not to go the Sharia route, and whether to think Umno is good or bad for deciding not to go the Sharia route.”
I do not think the point needs explaining. Of course it is a good thing which is why I applaud the DAP for making its stand very clear on this issue. UMNO of course goes on about the “time” not being right, but all that is part of the game.
Re:” And you think that Umno has the power to command Utusan not to publish religious columns? Or alternatively, if you think that Umno encourages Utusan to publish religious columns, please share with us who it is in Umno who has encourages Utusan to do so.”
Of course it does have the power. Not only has UMNO openly acknowledged that it is their propaganda organ, (so I really don’t have to name anyone in UMNO), it doesn’t have to micro manage anything, as long as the paper “spins and fabricates” for the government which its editors acknowledge they do.
Re;” If American pop culture is so readily available here, then it shows there is a wide and receptive market for it. If Islamic pop culture like Mawi and Maher Zain is popular, then it similarly shows that there is a wide and receptive market for it. Why fingerpoint Umno for the popularity of Mawi and other Islamic icons (like nasyid ‘pop’ groups and reality TV ustaz talents)?”
I was not disputing that Islamic pop culture was popular only your contention that UMNO is not the entity responsible for propagating Islam. These are two separate issues. I would add that the nature of pop culture is different from before and the depictions of Muslims different and this of course is the consequence of UMNO monopolizing the discourse.
Re:” Let’s ignore the Rocket for the moment as the party organ is an apple to orange comparison. Please elaborate on your comparison (or non-comparison) of Utusan and Star and what you’re implying by their similarities (or dissimilarities).”
No, let’s not ignore the Rocket, since we have already established that UMNO not only considers Utusan its propaganda organ but also other State media.
Re:” You’re easy at throwing the “NONSENSICAL” word at me. Do you think you’ve been talking solid sense? I don’t think so.”
And you maintain that UMNO is merely a political party with no control over Islam makes sense to you ? In every functional democracy in the world political parties attempt to gain control of State institutions to define policy be it religious, economic or social but here in Malaysia according to you this is not the case. Do you think you are making solid sense?
Re:” Utusan is more autonomous than you think.”
Apparently, autonomous means parroting the party line.
Re;” And as to your claim that the idea of the paper acting as a pressure group is farcical — you do throw words like “nonsense”, “nonsensical” and “farcical” very easily, it’s easy for you to resort to dismissive labelling as an argumentative device, yah? — I’ve already challenged you to buy a copy of Utusan tomorrow and the day after, and examine its coverage of the kalimah Allah hearing, and whether Awang Selamat manages to exert pressure or not.”
And you throw around terms like Dapster, kool aid , hoodwinking, Evangelist, threats to Islam, in an attempt to dismiss the arguments which attempt to clarify certain positions. I enjoy reading Utusan sometimes and I have no doubt that the extreme right wing of UMNO will be reflected in that edition.
You make Awang Selamat sound as if they have some influence on UMNO. You never once stop to consider that maybe those exerting pressure are elements within UMNO hostile to the current PM using Utusan to do it. Because we all know that this only happens in the Star.
Re:”On the contrary, Badawi is history. Whereas Najib attended the Utusan Raya open house. So between Badawi and Utusan, which one do you think is more relevant? You think Utusan published what Umno (Badawi) wanted, meh? “
Of course he is history but the reason why I quoted him was because of the nature of relationship between the propaganda organ and UMNO which you seem to think is nonexistent. Of course, Najib went to the open house. Why wouldn’t he?
Re:”And there you go again. Throwing words like “nonsense”, “nonsensical”, “farcical” and now “absurd”. I’m really not impressed that you’re talking sense in reading the ‘Islamic’ situation at all.”
And I am surprised that you would make such an argument. All those words accurately describe what you are essentially saying, which is UMNO has no role to play in the propagating Islam in this country, even though in previous threads you have acknowledged that UMNO has played a role and most recently conceded that UMNO has raised the stakes in the race and religion game.
“If UMNO was really a moderate then why would have they been raising the stakes in the race and Religion cards ?”
Forget about moderate, as far as I can remember, UMNO led Government has been and probably still severely criticised for not being “Islamic” enough by Pas and similar minded NGOs. UMNO is utterly secular, UMNO is Liberal are among the derogatory label being branded to them.
UMNO-led government is also accused of not doing nearly enough in propagating Islam to Non-Muslim. Among the thing cited is the rate in which Non-Muslim enter Islam since Merdeka.
Recent tone of Religion and Race by UMNO is a necessity to UMNO’s survival IMO. They want to appeal to Malay vote traditionally lost to Pas (more on Religion) and PKR (more on Race) now that they have lost a lot Chinese and Indian vote.
Re. Recent tone of Religion and Race by UMNO is a necessity to UMNO’s survival
Yes
Re. They want to appeal to Malay vote traditionally lost to Pas (more on Religion)
They got it in the last GE and now they need to keep the momentum up
Re. and PKR (more on Race)
What race? No race here only the father, mother, daughter and Madu 3 party
RE. they have lost a lot Chinese and Indian vote
No biggie
“Re. and PKR (more on Race)
What race? No race here only the father, mother, daughter and Madu 3 party”
I am under the impression that PKR supporters are basically ex-UMNO supporters who support DSAI. In a way, Malay identity is kinda common denominator when they were in UMNO.
While PKR is ‘muti-racial’ party, my impression is Malay vote UMNO lost to PKR has many element related to issue of Melayu.
Re. Malay vote UMNO lost to PKR has many element related to issue of Melayu.
Ni jenis MELAYU yang kalau boleh semua nak masuk poket dia orang, makan sentiasa nak bersuap…. Kerja dia orang mengutuk GOMEN tapi kerja kebanyakannya dengan GOMEN.
Conrad,
The Merdeka instrument was signed between Queen Elizabeth 11 and Malay rulers. Helen was just saying the truth.
And Malay rulers signed o behalf of the 9 states. as i said earlier, cunning, manipulative and forceful the British could have been . Yet they has one consistent principle: they are legalistic. Everything must be prim and proper.
Tanah Melayu would not have achieved independence had not for Malay rulers consent . it is a fact.
As for Islam, it fells under the purview of Malay rulers. No doubt any goverment of the day naturally has influence. But the final, ultimate authority rests with the ruler.
‘It’s as off-mark as blaming everything on Umno’s fault.’
Stupid as well. And if experiences does not make a man wise then maybe something is dead wrong with his brain faculty!
Yuna way in America does not need UMNO to dictate her donning the turban. It was her personal choice. Well maybe she, like the rest of us wants to be like the arabs. But if you think again, an arab in LA, a lady some more, may not be a good idea after all.
Remember the Sikhs shooting only recently was because they were presumed to be Muslims for donning the turbans, very much like what she is wearing. [YouTube]
What about Shila Amzah in China? Do we really believes that UMNO had any control what so ever for her to donned the hijab? Like, seriously? [YouTube]
But then again dumbing down is a favorite pastime for some!
Sigh….. so sad right?
Sedih dan depa cakap macam senang-senang nak tukar Mufti Perak, masa Paklah larang dulu pun, suruh town down pasal issue IFC dan jumlah kuil dulu pun, dia kena sound balik dengan Sultan Perak.
Masa Mufti Harunsani mai Masjid Wilayah cakap pasal IFC, semua Muslim mai sampai sesak. Masa tu Pas, Keadilan dan UMNO pun hadir!
Masa kami demo IFC kat Penang dulu pun bukan semua ahli Pas saja, ada juga ahli-ahli UMNO. Mamaks pun ramai!
Tapi ada orang tu tak faham saja nak berlagak pandai. Out looking in, but still having the gut to tell us a thing or two about our peradaban, asking us to emulate plak tu!
Sober ke tak ni?
RE. Sober ke tak ni?
Just check the time…
Betul jugak, lol!
For those incapable of thinking in proper terms, blaming Umno is the quickest fix.
Since the police are busy cracking down on crime syndicates, making matters worse for these boobies, patronizing brothels is risky business.
But men, and women, do need an avenue for a quick fix. Viola, and blaming Umno is that quick fix, the quickie !
Thank you!
When you put all the blame to UMNO, its mean you really believe that UMNO is so big and so powerful.. Really pity when somebody just believe that everything happen in our country is because of UMNO..
You just have to love these people. One minute they say people are deserting Umno, insinuating that Umno, and by extension BN is weak, and then, with a 360 degree turn, they say Umno is very powerful. You just have to love these whacks.
‘You just have to love these whacks.’
Enjoying every minutes of it!
dorang dap mainkan isu ‘Allah’ supaya umat islam malaysia melihat kelemahan pemimpin islam malaysia. dap tahu kesensitifan umat islam malaysia terhadap isu agama adalah lemah, dan amat sedikit yang ambil peduli. golongan liberal kat malaysia ni pasti x ambil pusing punya. kelemahan ini yang mempengaruhi pemikiran umat islam terhadap kerajaan sedia ada.
Arabic: أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
Transliteration: ašhadu ʾanla ilāha illal-Lāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna muḥammadan rasūlul-Lāh
Literal:
There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allahu_Akbar
Everybody know about this including this christian people. I really like your previous suggestion for them to use word CLOWN as their God if they don’t know what to name their God.. so funny when thinking about some people just keep praying without know their God or also funny when some people just want to translate their God’s name.. but its not funny anymore if this funny people want to ‘kebas’ my God..
http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah4.htm
What is God’s name?
Kita buat makan pun sebut nama Allah. Solat pun sebut nama Allah. Bersembang. Tersedak. Terkejut. Berita baik. Berita buruk. Semua sebut nama Allah. Tup-tup, projek kebas nama Allah oleh puak Kristian Extremis!
Gomen tak tangkap pulak tu si Murphy!
re: “Tup-tup, projek kebas nama Allah oleh puak Kristian Extremis!”
Ong Kian Ming dengan sebutan ‘Insya’Allah’nya. Baik JAIS dan MAIS pantau rapi.
OKM dan sekutunya dah tau kalau dia sebut ‘Insya’Allah” aje, orang melayu mudah dipengaruhi….
sebab itu beria-ia puak evangelis ni nak guna kalimah Allah…!
OKM seorang wakil DAP di negeri Selangor. Maka JAIS dan MAIS harus mengambil tindakan.
Setuju bebenor!
kenapa tak boleh kongsi nama allah dgn kristian atau kepercayaan2 lain? sedangkan ekonomi orang islam (keluaran barang/makan halal & perbankan islam) dah pun dikongsi dgn bukan islam. bila nama allah jadi isu, satu malaya lompat. kenapa ‘lesen halal’ tak jadi isu satu malaya? tak bising? mana fatwa? mana ngo2 islam?
kampong Lad,
Sebab peringatan Allah SWT pasal Kristian/Yahudi.
“samalah ugama kita. Nama Tuhan pun sama”. itulah yang paderi Kristian dok tunggu.
Dan orang Melayu/Islam pun tak rasa bersalah nak murtad. Sebab jika murtad pun, mereka mash sembah Allah(iaitu pada mereka nabi isa).
Ada faham?