Posted in Evangelista Bintang Tiga

Allah issue: Christians say it is “urban terrorism” by “BN-sponsored fascism”

A Christian peninsular High Court judge delivered the ‘Allah’ verdict on 31 Dec 2009. You can read the full text of Justice Lau Bee Lan’s judgement HERE.

Peninsular Christians have accused Umno of starting the whole Allah issue. Read The Nut Graph article of 12 January 2010 which said that far from being a moderate Muslim state, Malaysia has become “a fascist state under BN rule“.

The Nut Graph Christian editor Jacqueline Ann Surin wrote that the firebombings did “not begin with narrow-minded and ignorant Muslim pressure groups threatening to spill blood to assert their sole right to use ‘Allah’ but instead started with the Umno-led BN government’s 1986 ban.

The Nut Graph graphics

Jacqueline Ann Surin reminded Malaysians not to forget that it wouldn’t be an issue at all if the Umno-led government had “respected the legitimate rights of other faith communities”.

She added:

“The ‘Allah’ issue would not have spiraled into, to quote a friend, suburban terrorism — and it is terrorism when violence and intimidation are used towards achieving one’s goals — if the Home Ministry had not acted to deny the rights of non-Muslim citizens in the first place.”

All Umno’s fault

Is Umno accountable for the situation we find ourselves in as claimed by Jacqueline Ann Surin?

She is convinced that “the government is responsible for this narrow-minded and bigoted interpretation of who can use ‘Allah’ in Malaysia”, as well as ignoring the flames fanned among “the bigots in our midst” and whose bigotry have caused others to be stripped of their rights.

Jacqueline mentioned that although “a couple of politicians including Umno Youth chief Khairy Jamaluddin have now [January 2010]  called for an interfaith dialogue to resolve the issue, “really, the time for dialogue is over”.

She wrote:

“And mind you, the use of the word ‘Allah’ is not a “sensitive” issue, as top Umno leaders and the Umno-backed Utusan Malaysia are fond of restating repeatedly. It’s a copyright issue. And there is nothing at all that gives Muslims in Malaysia, or elsewhere, the copyright to use the word to refer to God and deny others the right to do so.”

She also asked:

“But if Christians and Sikhs have not been confused thus far from the use of ‘Allah’ in their worship, what makes Malaysian Muslims so special that the government should continue to perpetuate their ignorance about a word that pre-dates Islam?”

She further demanded:

“Additionally, since copyright for the word does not belong to Muslims, what right do Muslim groups and politicians have to demand that non-Muslims can only use ‘Tuhan’ and not ‘Allah’?” …

… while at the same time accusing Umno of “perpetuating this age of ignorance”.

Jacqueline concluded that the “BN-sponsored fascism” is “no different from the Nazi state”, and urged her readers to make no mistake that it is surely the BN government that started all of this.

***   ***   ***

Evangelista

Ong Kian Ming's stand on Allah
Ong Kian Ming’s stand on Allah
Ong Kian Ming says
Ong Kian Ming says

Read ‘Hanya Muslim yang rapuh iman boleh begitu mudah konpius, kata juru strategi DAP‘ (2 Jan 2013)

DAP’s Serdang Christian MP Ong Kian Ming asserts:

“To say that Christians should change the word Allah to Tuhan is to disrespect the rights of a religious group – Christians, in this case – to have autonomy and control over their own religious texts.”  — ‘Allah row: What’s the name of the game?

Ong argues that Christians must be allowed to translated ‘God’ into ‘Allah’ because otherwise “Lord God” in the Bible would need to be translated into “Tuhan Tuhan”.

<Quote>

“because If Allah is to be replaced with Tuhan, we would find Tuhan appearing twice in the same verse. For example, Exodus 29:46 would read: “Mereka akan tahu bahawa Akulah TUHAN, Tuhan (rather than Allah) mereka yang telah membawa mereka kelaur dari Mesir, supaya Aku dapat tingal bersama-sama mereka. Akulah TUHAN Tuhan mereka” (“They will know that I am the LORD, their Lord (rather than God), who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their Lord (rather than God).”

<Unquote>

http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/217720
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/217720

Ong ended his article by saying: “I hope that we can have a mature and sensible discussion over this matter rather than to resort to baseless accusations and impractical ‘suggestions’ that ignores due process.”

Bintang Tiga bermaharajalela

I too blame Umno for all that is happening now. I fault Umno for failing to get a grip on the situation.

It is through Umno’s neglect that the evangelistas have gained firm control of the public discourse and subversives like The Sneaky Star have been able to get away with the Scissorsing that they’re doing.

The evangelistas are successfully portraying to the outside world (that communicates in the international language English) as if they are the only ones who are “mature and sensible” whereas the Malays are depicted as resorting irrationally to “baseless accusations”.

And the evangelistas are so conniving that they make out as if it is the “non-Muslims” across the board who want to use the Allah word.

This deceit is typical of their forked tongue.

In reality, Buddhists do not express any desire to use the word Allah. Neither are the Hindus clamouring to print the word in their scriptures. It is only the evangelistas here who are trying to steal Allah but they attempt to drag all of Malaysia’s other non-Muslims into the imbroglio.

Twitter hannahyeoh Do not confuse

Who is confused?

Umno has allowed the evangelistas to make out as if Malays are idiots who will be “easily confused” when in fact it is the evangelistas who can’t even finger the name of their God.

A quarter of the world’s population is Muslim and if you asked the billions of them who is their God, they will unanimously give a single, unwavering reply — “Allah”. Their clarity is unequivocal.

Now you ask the DAP evangelist politician – who is given a column in The J-Star so that he can reach an urban Malaysian audience of 5 million – and he bleats about the difficulty of translation resulting in the doubling of “Tuhan Tuhan” should the Christians be forbidden from using ‘Allah’.

Their God, apparently, can take on any name as suits the prevailing local conditions.

And yet the evangelistas point the finger at others with regard to “confused” and “confusion”. Umno should just tell Ong Kian Ming and his ilk “Frankly, we don’t give a damn about your translation nitty-gritty.”

PartyLogosTicks

Why is it that Umno is unable to prevent its BN components, like the MCA and the media which this Chinese party owns and controls, from undermining the BN’s stand on the ‘Allah’ word? Why shouldn’t Umno be blamed for our patience now coming perilously close to snapping?

Read also:

Bekas pengarang akhbar SinChew kata Pemuda Umno sokong Kristian guna kalimah Allah

Author:

I have no Faceook or Twitter.

76 thoughts on “Allah issue: Christians say it is “urban terrorism” by “BN-sponsored fascism”

  1. Muslims know who their God is. One word. Allah. Muslims are not confused. They are sober.

    Hindus also know who their God is.

    Buddhists and Taoists also know who their God is.

    Same for Sikhs.

    Christians also know who their God is. The Jews also know who their God is.

    The evangelists are a different breed. I believe they too know who their God is. Their God has a name. That name is ME. That’s right. They worship themselves. They say they are right all the time. They say they know everything. They say they are above everyone else. They also say they know what’s best for everyone. They also say they know what’s right and what’s wrong. In other words, they are GOD.

    1. No you are very wrong. According to JAKIM or MAIS, Muslim are a confuse lot. A mere word of Allah is enough to make the Muslim half Christian. They seems to confuse the Allah word in malay bible to be their God.

      1. The Christian european missionaries try to confuse the borneos jungle people saying that their religion is the same as that of the malays. They meant to confuse the tribes of borneos while they know that the Allah of the Malays refer to the Islamic faith.

        The borneos tribe look highly on the Malays brethren and would not have embraced the jewish priest Jesus as their god if they knew the truth.

        In the end, Christianity is a discredited jewish religion and those who propagate it in Asia is for their own benefit and interest just as the jews have done millenium ago.

        That is why they Chinese hanged and killed the Christians missionaries who propagated their god to the Chinese. And the Japanese crucified the Portuguese chrisitan missionaries to teach them a lesson that its all rubbish.
        The Christian God Jesus definitely is afraid of the Japanese Shogun.

  2. Before this people claim to use Allah as their God, did their God got name?

    Maybe AC-DC or Conrad can help me.. thanks in advance.

    1. You are inviting the spinners to spin the debate here. But what the heck ! We could use a bit of entertainment. I look forward to hearing from those 2. Ha ha ha !

  3. Helen,
    memang benar UMNO membuat kesilapan. tetapi bukankah UMNO itu orang Melayu?

    bukankah orang Melayu sejak azali membawa sikap yang bertoleransi yang menjadi teras dalam budaya kehidupan mereka?
    sebenarnya sikap bertoleransi ini sudahpun memakan diri apabila ianya diambil kesempatan oleh puak-puak evangelis jahanam!
    biasa kita lihat bangsa india atau cina yang cuma satu atau dua keluarga yang tinggal di dalam perkampungan orang Melayu. senario ini masih wujud di banyak negeri terutama di Kelantan.
    tetapi,

    senario ini berubah apabila orang cina atau india ini ‘kampungkan’ di ‘New Village’ dan di perkampungan ‘Estate’…mereka berubah menjadi terlebih ‘langsi’ dan terlebih ‘berani’. mereka hilang sifat bertoleransi, berlemah-lembut dan berhemah seperti orang cina atau india yang tinggal dan berasimilasi dengan orang melayu di perkampungan melayu.

    apabila “New Village’ bertukar ‘URBAN’ dan ‘Estate’ terbubar menjadi ‘Garden’ iaitu taman-taman perumahan, UMNO khususnya kerajaan seolah-olah tidak berbuat apa-apa apabila penempatan penduduk di dominasi oleh sesuatau kaum terutama disebabkan oleh jurang ekonomi antara kaum, nilai hartanah yang memeningkan kepala selain taburan kawasan sektor pekerjaan dan perniagaan yang menjadi tumpuan kaum-kaum tertentu.

    sebagai contoh lihat aje di selangor…Klang dengan cinanya, taman sentosa dengan indianya, kampung jawa dengan melayunya….!
    inilah polarisasi kaum hasil sikap terlalu berlepas tangan oleh UMNO….

    kita sudah merdeka sekian lama tetapi tetap GAGAL berasimilasi sesama kaum dan kegagalan ini memang hak mutlak UMNO, MCA dan MIC!

      1. Memecat memerlukan kejantanan yang tinggi.. do you think PM Najib got a ball?

        Perbaiki kesilapan dengan bersikap tegas dan konsisten dalam menangani apa juga perkara.

  4. Quote: “Why is it that Umno is unable to prevent its BN components, like the MCA and the media which this Chinese party owns and controls, from undermining the BN’s stand on the ‘Allah’ word?”

    No political party in their right mind would want to step into such murky territory like religion. Unless religion serve your political purpose and provide mileage to your party agenda.

    MCA is a Chinese party. Chinese are, let’s say, not particularly known for their zeal for religion. Coupled with the fact most religion embraced by the Chinese are of the ‘liberal’ kind, religion is not top priority for MCA. Simply put, it’s not MCA’s fight.

    For the same reason MIC is not out defending Islam for BN either.

    1. re: “Coupled with the fact most religion embraced by the Chinese are of the ‘liberal’ kind, religion is not top priority for MCA. Simply put, it’s not MCA’s fight.”

      MCA is fighting pula for the use of ‘Allah’ to extend beyond the Christians to also include the Sikhs, the Baba-Nyonya, the Orang Asli and the Hindus.

      MCA wants to make the use of ‘Allah’ one big messy family.

      http://www.mca.org.my/en/press-statement-by-mca-central-committee-member-sdr-loh-seng-kok-deputy-chairman-of-mca-publicity-bureau-on-allah-term/

      What is Umno waiting for? Sack MCA now!

      1. Helen

        I would hardly call MCA’s press statement in upholding the High Court judgement of 31 December 2009 ‘fighting for the use of Allah’. Coupled with the fact the statement was issued before the GE13, it is understandable on MCA’s part to distance itself from siding Islam extremism. (perceived or otherwise)

        Quote: “What is Umno waiting for? Sack MCA now!”

        and put years of denial MCA is nothing but a stooge in the coalition to an end?

        1. re: “and put years of denial MCA is nothing but a stooge in the coalition to an end?”

          There’s no need to keep up the facade any longer. Even CSL himself admitted that 85% of the Chinese votes went to the oppo in GE13.

        2. re: “Coupled with the fact the statement was issued before the GE13, it is understandable on MCA’s part to distance itself from siding Islam extremism. (perceived or otherwise).”

          catch-22 situation: Hadi Awang is an Islamist ideologue whose ideas about the nature of God Most High are outside the fold of the majoritarian Muslim creed, namely, that Allah is “Existent”, “Eternal” and “Everlasting”, uncircumscribed by the dimensions of time and space .

          Contrary to Hadi Awang’s conceptions, Allah does not need to “come down” nor “go up” nor travel in any direction in space to get somewhere in time: That’s what a right-minded Muslim should understand when he says that Allah is Almighty over every thing created and absolutely unlike anything in creation, that human beings can perceive or imagine. Allah the Most Sublime Essence is the unborn and the uncreate.

          Below is the proof of Hadi Awang’s false beliefs about his god (especially from 2:35 on the video, when he denies that Allah is existent (Wujud) eternal (Qidam) and everlasting (Baqa’):

          [YouTube]

          Like the Wahhabi Salafis who hold such undying deviant convictions about Allah, religious politicization and radicalism are just a stone’s throw away. And mixing up their “principles” for the sake of power and money is endemic for these cohorts of worldliness, whether in Saudi Arabia or here in Malaysia.

          Just like with “Postmodernist Liberalism”, the “Salafi Fundamentalism” is custom-made for the culture of Jahiliyyah (an Age of Ignorance) in which every Tribe has its own story and its own uncritical version of “truth”. Historically, this has always resulted in pervasive dissensions and disputations, for want of a wisdom whose objective is mercy to others above oneself – in deference to the teachings and laws of the Creator God Most High and Sublime, as conveyed through His Noble Messengers. [YouTube]

    1. Sorry TIJ,

      Not agree.. Sacking is a very light sentence.. We should let MCA ‘Di gantung tak bertali”

  5. Helen on the whole level it was the tidak apa attitude. Tidak mahu dan berasa tidak perlu untuk masuk campur dalam urusan agama-agama lain.

    Masa Mahathir-tidak boleh/no way jose!
    Masa Pak Lah-zzzzzzz
    Masa Najib-lemah dan hilang fokus

    Saya pun marah dengan UMNO sebab sampai jadi macam ni. Tapi saya lagiarah dengan hipokrasi yang ditunjukkan kebanyakkan pemimipin Pas!

      1. Buat apa pasang benda macam tu. Tak semacam pun. Lebih baik pasang kain rentang “Najib bila nak bertindak membersihkan rumah BN ?”.

        Bila staf The Star nampak benda macam tu, baru ada impak. Dia orang pun tertanya-tanya. Apa benda tu ? Ah ha ha ha !

        Aduh. Benda tu ? Tak faham ke ? Bersihkan rumah. BN kan banyak parti komponen. Kena ada cleanup lepas tu rumah baru nampak elok. Banyak benda-benda yang bertaburan. Tak faham lagi ke ?

    1. You know why the situation is like this today not only in this issue and many others ?

      I don’t think we can blame Pak Lah or Najib. The fundamental issue is because of Malays/Muslims themselves who are divided into three groups – fundamentalists (PAS), liberal (PKR) and the rest (UMNO).

      If you notice the dynamics in PR, the party that is most (in fact fanatically) committed to Pakatan is DAP. Because they know that with just Chinese votes they can do nothing but when they can split the Malays using Malays, they can be Kings or Tokongs.
      If you notice in any contentious issues involving Muslims and non-Muslims, the pro-Pakatan media always rolls out a Muslim to articulate the views that held by the non-Muslims. Look at Allah issue, there are Malays who write in Mkini & MI to support the Christians. They had Malay machais to write to condemn Tanda Putera. And so on.

      In the case of Allah, if PAS & PKR are firm with the stance, I don’t think the Christian Nazis will dare to challenge the govt.
      I find the statements of people like OKM is highly insulting to the Muslims yet Nik Aziz the great Mullah behaves like a DAP’s poodle and kept his mouth shut.

      1. During Tun M also malay divide into UMNO, PAS, S46 etc… Like chinese, malay also never stay in one house..

        Even UMNO also ‘haram’ during Tun M but you see how ‘cruel’ Tun M managing the crisis and succeed.. For me, the blame (if any) still go to Pak Lah and Najib..

        Thank you Tun M..

      2. The problem is created by UMNO. UMNO should not try to gather Muslim support by posing themselves as defender of Allah. If they think the word Allah is impropriate, they should have discussed this behind close door with the Christian group based on facts and history that Allah never used as name for God in Bible. But by being highhanded in this issue, you are making the Christian group being ‘lose face” and make the Muslim like superior group. UMNO should have convince the Christian behind close door and let the Christian themselves announce that they will not use the Allah word.

        1. You are overestimate UMNO. If UMNO can create this problem and then can gather all malay muslim to defend the name of Allah, then UMNO will survive forever.. I really hope UMNO as smart as what you think..

          1. Agree with Ibni, I was at the Istana Kehakiman this afternoon, and take it from me, despite the Mkini pics of showing some wanita UMNO, they are in fact a minority there throughout the whole day.

            A lot of Perkasa, ISMA, Pembina, Perkid and some other Muslim NGOs.

      3. ‘I find the statements of people like OKM is highly insulting to the Muslims yet Nik Aziz the great Mullah behaves like a DAP’s poodle and kept his mouth shut.’

        I’m insulted by the both of them!

  6. Before we go to the Courts (1)

    Helen, I read a few points from either your commenters or from your news clippings some faulty arguments regarding the Allah issue that I feel called to clarify. Before this issue goes on to the next step, I would like people to step back and ponder a few things. Because looked at from either the Morphological, Intellectual, Logical or Epistemological perspectives, there can be no doubt that as it stands, when the Christians talk about God and when the Muslims talk about God, they are talking about two different entities altogether, although in reality this shouldn’t be the case. This can be attributed to the very different Sifaat or characteristics that is attributed to this God in the written testaments of both faiths. And therefore, the issue of wanting to use Allah as the name to replace “God” in the bibles in Malaysia CANNOT be due to its theological correctness, but rather purely for reasons of dishonest proselytization chicaneries and craftily insulated conversion schemes. This has then propelled forward mudslinging onslaughts from both sides, and to provide the needed diverso suspicios, the oft-quoted vindicated question is to ask,

    “Is Islam such a weak religion and are Muslims such weak adherents to their faith that a simple name change is enough to rattle them, enough to make them feel non-confident of the state of their faiths?”

    to which pundits of equal astute from the other party give an equally challenging catechism:

    “Has Christianity, after a massive onslaught by Modern Liberalization and Atheism in the west, resulting in empty cathedrals and massive exodus towards agnosticism, been reduced to dirty chicaneries and linguistic deceptions in its effort to increase numbers on unsuspecting adherents of other faiths in less-than developed Eastern nations?”

    Yes, perhaps Ong Kian Ming’s qualm in that thing about “an insult to the muslims” could be answered that way. But then, this issue seems to keep being flamed on to keep it burning. Not so much that the theological and epistemological implications are so great that Christians feel sinful if in their prayers the name “Allah” is not mentioned (after all for the past 2000 years not only have they not done so, but made it an article of faith to be at war with those who says, “My God is Allah”), but in Malaysia, the question of the sanctity of Islam is closely-related to another factor: that being a malay, generally, is being a muslim. So therefore politically, it is not ISLAM that is being the object of brunt to local political forces here—but it is rather the MALAYS. Come what may, any issue held dear by the malays, well—THAT’s the issue that should be dissented on. Ironi-cally, many of the local chinese who are loudest in denouncing the government actions to stop from misusing the name Allah are themselves non-Christians, and thereby least affected faithwise, or, if they are, belong to non-catholic creeds, a majority of whom, judging from the policies of their protestant centers in the west, do NOT want the name Allah to be put in the bible. But as I said, since it is inherently a MALAY issue, the opportunity for government bashing and dissentful remarks is like a God—err—Allah sent manna from heaven.

    Apocryphalist

    1. Apocryphalist

      Quote: ” And therefore, the issue of wanting to use Allah as the name to replace “God” in the bibles in Malaysia CANNOT be due to its theological correctness, but rather purely for reasons of dishonest proselytization chicaneries and craftily insulated conversion schemes. ”

      When you start off your argument with a preconceived stance of “Christianity usage of Allah purely for dishonest proselytization..”, you leave little room for meaningful discourse.

      In the name of fairness, just leave it to the court to decide.

        1. Islam1st

          Hey dude, long time no see.

          Quote: “Yea as if Malaysiakini and CFM had done nothing but letting the court to decide!”

          Itu biasalah. Utusan and others also sibuk. Controversy sells.

          Cheers

  7. Before we go to the Courts (2)

    Now one of the main contentions on why this issue seem to be kept alive by those who do NOT want the issue to die and settle is that “If you prevent the Catholics from using the name Allah in their bible, what about other religions who do so, particularly the Sikhs?”

    Well, let’s look at the Sikh religion. Are we sure that when the Christians say “Allah” and when the Sikhs say “Allah”, they are meaning the same entity as when the muslims do? Let’s have a look at the differences between these three religions:

    (C) – Christian (S)- Sikh (I)- Islam

    How many Gods?
    (C) – Three (S) – One (I) – One

    Who was Jesus?
    (C) – Deity (S) – Creation (I) – Creation

    Has God a Son?
    (C) – Yes (S) – No (I) – No

    Any human Characteristics of God?
    (C) – Hungry[1]. Weary[2]. Prayed[3]. Depressed[4]. Worked[5].
    Paid Taxes[6]. Sorrowful[7]. Cried[8]. Died[9].
    (S) – None
    (I) – None

    Any un-Godly characteristics of this God?
    (C) Participated in wrestling match with human, and lost[10]; Stripped, and walked naked[11]; Admits that there are other Gods[12]; Fire coming out of mouth and Smoke from nostrils[13]
    (S) – None
    (I) – None

    Any special teachings of this God?
    (C)) Hate your family[15]; (S) – No such Teachings (I) – No such Teachings
    (C) Sin is inherited from parents[16]; (S) You do your own sins (I) – You do yours too

    Salvation Lies where?
    (C) – Only in Jesus Christ
    (S) – Faith and Good works
    (I) Faith, Good Works, Grace of God

    Any disgusting characteristics of this God?
    (C) – Hate your family[15]: Commands to eat human shit[18]; Enjoins Cannibalism[19]
    (S) – No such nonsense
    (I) – No such nonsense

    We can clearly see that there is no way that the description of God by the Christians match the one by Muslims and Sikhs.. How then can one enforce that they are the same, and thus allowing to share the Name?

    In short it is this. The muslims do not have a problem with Sikhs, or whoever else for that matter, because their idea of God parallels so much with the Allah in the Quran. They do not blaspheme, do not assign sons and wives, do not have crazy and disgus-ting descriptions of this God, who alone by Himself created the Universe and man-kind. In fact, such a description forces any muslim to conclude that that God must then be Allah: the same Allah who describes Himself in the same manner in the Quran. In fact, the Sikhs can call this God whatever name they want but to us as long as the description and characteristics fit the same as that in the Quran, hey! That’s Allah all right.

    Even if an Eskimo, or a Navajo tribe, or any deep Papua New Guinean has a descript-tion of a God that fits in well with the Quran, why not. Call Him any way you want, that’s Allah right there for us.

    But not so in the Bible case. In fact not only is the biblical description demeaning, but even this Allah states categorically in the Quran of His anger to those who assign to any human being a Godhood and to Him a Sonhood. And He doesn’t mince His words when He literally mentions that the object of His anger are Christians for this very exact abomination.

    [1]. Mark 11:12, Matthew 4:2
    [2]. John 4:6
    [3]. Mark 1:35, Luke 6:12
    [4]. John 11:35
    [5]. Mark 6:3
    [6]. Matthew 22:21
    [7]. Matthew 26:37-38
    [8]. Mark 15:37
    [9]. John 19:33
    [10]. Genesis 32:24
    [11]. Micah 1:8
    [12]. Acts 17: 18-23
    [13]. II Samuel 22:9
    [14]. Numbers 23:22
    [15]. Luke 14:26
    [16]. Joshua 10:
    [17]. John 3:16
    [18]. Ezekiel 4:12-13
    [19]. II Kings 6:28

    1. Quote: “Now one of the main contentions on why this issue seem to be kept alive by those who do NOT want the issue to die and settle is that “If you prevent the Catholics from using the name Allah in their bible, what about other religions who do so, particularly the Sikhs?”

      The ones who don’t want to let this issue die are those who appealed the judgment handed by the High Court. Having said that, I am not denying anybody’s right to an appeal. As long as the fight is fought in court and in accordance to the law of the land, so be it.

      Quote: “In short it is this. The muslims do not have a problem with Sikhs, or whoever else for that matter, because their idea of God parallels so much with the Allah in the Quran. ”

      Quote: “Even if an Eskimo, or a Navajo tribe, or any deep Papua New Guinean has a descript-tion of a God that fits in well with the Quran, why not. Call Him any way you want, that’s Allah right there for us.”

      In all due respect, I hope you know what you are saying and those commenters who seems to agree with you. On the first part you are basically saying as long as the characteristic of Allah fits, you are fine with anyone using the word Allah. That is like saying as long as you have a man who can perform his bedroom duties, you have no problem calling him father. Well, that’s your prerogative. I am just pointing out the fallacy of your argument.

      As for the 2nd part, you are essentially saying the same thing, but throwing in Eskimos and the rest to prove you have no objection to them using Allah because the characteristic of their God is somewhat similar to yours. But god forbid, not the Christian God. Nevermind indisputably both Christianity and Islam originated from the same source, Abraham’s convenant with God.

      I have to agree with you though the God in the Christian context differs from the Islam context. I don’t think we are talking about the same God. But then we mortals are not here to argue your God is bigger than mine or vice versa. Either side winning the argument in reality will not make our claim any more true.

      Whom you chose to worship, the choice is yours to take. But why lay exclusive claim to a word that pre dates Islam?

      1. In [sic] all due respect, I hope you know what you are saying and those commenters who seems [sic] to agree with you.

        URGGHHH. I HATE IT WHEN I HAVE TO ANSWER ARGUMENTS BY THOSE WHOSE ENGLISH GRAMMAR IS ALL IN TOPSY TURVY FORM.

        On the first part you are basically saying as long as the characteristic of Allah fits, you are fine with anyone using the word Allah.

        YES. BASICALLY THAT’S WHAT I AM SAYING. AND WAS HOPING THE MATTER BE LEFT THERE WHEN LO AND BEHOLD, WHEN ONE WAS JUST ABOUT TO THINK THINGS COULD NOT BE GETTING ANY STUPIDER, HERE COMES THE NO-FRILLS, NO-NONSENSE MOTHER-OF-ALL SUPID EXAMPLE AND ASSOCIATION …

        That is like saying as long as you have a man who can perform his bedroom duties, you have no problem calling him father.

        HEHEHE. WHAT A STUPID ASSOCIATION. APPLES AND ORANGES. I REST MY CASE.

        As for the 2nd part, you are essentially saying the same thing, but throwing in Eskimos and the rest to prove you have no objection to them using Allah because the characteristic of their God is somewhat similar to yours.

        YES. CLEVER I AM AINT I? AND STUPID YOU ARE, AINT YOU, FOR NOT EVEN COMPREHENDING A SIMPLE THING EVEN THOUGH SO MANY EXAMPLES HAVE BEEN GIVEN. ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU ARE NOT THINKING THAT YOUR ”FATHER PERFORMING HIS BEDROOM DUTIES” EXAMPLE WAS IN THE SAME LEAGUE, DO YOU?

        I have to agree with you though the God in the Christian context differs from the Islam context. I don’t think we are talking about the same God.

        THEN GO TO COURTS, STAND UP ON THE BENCH, AND SHOUT, “STOP THE PROCEEDINGS! STOP THE PROCEEDINGS! WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME GOD. OUR GOD HAS HORNS, FUMES COMING OUT OF HIS MOUTH AND LOST IN A TIGER-LOCK IN A WRESTLING MATCH WITH ONE OF HIS CREATIONS. THEIR ALLAH DID NOT DO THESE THINGS”.

        UNDERSTAND?

        I rest my case and arguments, and heretofore your replies will be just rhetorics and picking up the pieces and dusting off the dirt from the fall, to which I reserve my good and valuable time from indulging in.

        Apocryphalist

          1. To add…

            Hey, it suddenly dawned on me your grammar fetish reminded me of Mulan.

            Come to think of it, the sentence construction also looked familliar. Long lost twins or something sinister? :P

            Cheers

            1. Hey, it suddenly dawned on me your grammar fetish reminded me of Mulan.

              Come to think of it, the sentence construction also looked familliar. Long lost twins or something sinister? :P

              There you go, HH, shameful. Especially bringing in Mulan into this. You should had settle the old score with her. Be classy(some class clown had taught me this) will you?!

              1. Islam1st

                There is no old score to settle between Mulan and me.

                It is indeed true Mulan has this preoccupation with grammar (though this Apocryphalist should’ve been just as meticulous about his/her spelling. Well, nobody’s perfect.) and there is an eerie similarity how Mulan and Acpocy chose to argue their logic. It has not gone unnoticed tho.

                As for being classy, I think I am still hanging on. Thanks for asking.

                Class clown? C’mon, you would hardly be borrowing his words if you truly believe he is a clown.

  8. The Filipinos xtians in the largest Catholic nation in Asia do not use Allah but God. Why? So are the xtians in US, Poland, Denmark, UK etc.

    The xtians of orthodox church of Arab origins, however, use Allah to refer to their God. ONLY those of Arab origins use Allah to refer to God.

    All muslims of any origins refer to Allah as their ONE and ONLY God.

    Our xtian firends in Sabah and Sarawak still refer to their xtian God as “Lord Jesus” if their Sunday mass is in English or B.Cina. They don’t say Allah in their Lord’s Prayer. During a mass conducted in Iban “Tuhan Isa” is commonly used never Allah. (maybe “alah tala” on certain function).

    Baseless claims by Sabah Church do not make Xtianity less xtian.

    1. re: “ONLY those of Arab origins use Allah to refer to God.”

      Okay, we Arabize the DAP evangelistas. Like I said before, Muslim schoolchildren ambil mata pelajaran Bahasa Arab and so should the Christian schoolchildren.

      I would like to see the DAP evangelista women dress like Arabs too in abaya/hijab since they so berkenan dan nak juga perkataan Arab.

      1. ‘re: “ONLY those of Arab origins use Allah to refer to God.”

        Okay, we Arabize the DAP evangelistas. Like I said before, Muslim schoolchildren ambil mata pelajaran Bahasa Arab and so should the Christian schoolchildren.’

        Agree. veteran and Helen, even the Christian-Indian taxi driver, who speaks flawless BM BTW, knows that God is Tuhan in Malay. Since he was driving a proton saga, I could not resists but to highlight to him that car is kereta in Malay. Car is not Proton. Proton is the name or brand of the car. We had our laughs right in front of Istana Kehakiman.

        For OKM, Dr, Lord is Tuan in Malay. Lord can also be translated into Raja in Malay. So please take your pick.

        For Lord God, OKM can translate it as Raja Tuhan or Tuan Tuhan.

        ‘I would like to see the DAP evangelista women dress like Arabs too in abaya/hijab since they so berkenan dan nak juga perkataan Arab.’

        For all we know, HY and her Chinese daughters might be looking for some already…Dubai (bagi class skit maa) here we come!

        1. re: “HY and her Chinese daughters might be looking for some already”

          Ya, tapi sepertimana juga nama Tuhan evangelis yang boleh diubah nama, jenis mereka ni cara ‘tutup aurat’ pun boleh diubah-ubah mengikut suasana dan keadaan, bukan macam Muslimah yang kalau bertudung, kenalah konsisten selalu.

  9. To quote a friend;
    “Kalau kita ada sekolah jenis kebangsaan cina & tamil, kenapa kita tidak ada sekolah jenis kebangsaan iban, kadazan, melanau, bidayuh, murut, sulu, jawa, bugis, siam & portugis? Kalau tidak mahu berbahasa melayu sangat, kenapa bermati-matian mahukan kalimah Allah dan alkitab. Guna sahaja god & bible versi bahasa inggeris!”
    I rest my case.

    1. Betul lah tu.. keyakinan tuan ini bermaksud bahawa UMNO ini sangat berpengaruh dan berkuasa di Malaysia.. jIka UMNO petik jari sahaja, rakyat akan datang berpusu pusu untuk menerima arahan UMNO..

  10. if ask you why i fail my wife onmalam jumaat, i bet you will find a way to blame scissorati inside blanket :)

  11. To me what the most dangerous and evil aspect of these supporters is how they equate the right to call their god Allah with fundamental right to practise their Christian rights. This is the dangerous link that these ultra Christians is putting forward. This in turn is inflaming the Christians in the country and elsewhere. No one calls Jesus as Allah in Singapore but that doesn’t mean Singapore is not allowing religious freedom or oppressing Christians.

    In most of the churches in Malaysia, this issue has been used as a major weapon to enrage the Christians and consider BN as evil for preventing the Allah use. This is No 1 reason why many Christians in both peninsular and Sabah/Sarawak voted for PR.

  12. I don’t have an issue calling my Trinitarian God either Allah or Tuhan. Then again, I rarely attend mass in BM, last being some 2-3 years ago.

    If Jesus can rebuke Peter for cutting the ear of the servant at the Garden of Gethsemane despite his life being in peril, why can’t the Christians turn the other cheek by not prolonging this matter further?

    At the end of it, the issue is one driven by those with vested interest. It becomes a rallying point for the mostly middle class Christians to oppose the “oppressive” regime that is UMNO. Whatever good intentions at the start are now washed away by the involvement of other parties.

    All parties concerned should allow the courts to adjudicate without any undue pressure. And when all legal avenues are exhausted, the decision has to be respected.

    All this politicking over a term to call the Almighty is honestly tiresome. I know I could use some time out from politically charged sermons on Sundays.

    1. If “oppressive” is UMNO, wondering what you called this christian followers that suddenly come and try to translate their God’s name to Allah.. and coincidently happen during the time and UMNO so weak..

        1. Seems very difficult for you to naming this christian follower compare to how easy your naming UMNO as an oppressive regime.. actually you call them as ‘middle class Christian’..

          1. It is not me who branded UMNO as repressive. The open & closed inverted commas implied as such. If I considered that UMNO was indeed an oppressive regime, I would say so without the inverted commas.

            As for the reference to Fr Merrin, he was a character in the movie The Exorcist which starred Linda Blair. Why did I bring his character into my answer? Because to exorcise a devil, an exorcist will have to obtain the name of the evil spirit possessing the person. Only when this is obtained can the exorcism proceed. As such I’m implying that the Malaysian Christians “defenders of the faith” are not driven by pure thoughts & intentions.

    2. I can feel that one day your sermon also change to Friday.. are you ok with this changes if really happen?

      1. If it is the law of the land, as a citizen I’m duty bound to adhere to it. Why is the day of worship an issue at all?

        Men should be oft reminded that religion is neither comfortable nor convenient even at the best of times.

        1. Understand you & respect..

          If I find out that PM Najib want to change my Friday prayer to Sunday prayer, I will ensure he (or me) died before he even think about that..

  13. The amount of energy spent on arguing about usage of a stupid word is mind boggling. Don’t you guys have something better to do, like robbing the bank?

  14. I find debating on religious issues a “lost cause”. It’s not just about opinions, it’s also about faith. Where rationale and faith collides, faith takes precedence. That is basic in religion, more especially in Islam. So in using rationale for using the word Allah in the Malay translation vs faith (in this case Akidah), faith wins no contest. To question that, is to question your faith.

    Now, maybe the proponents wanting to use the word Allah in the Malay bible (somehow, the word Malay and Bible cannot go together constitutionally) should take a look at the Arab Bible (http://www.arabbible.com/t-Allah.aspx).

    Here’s an excerpt:
    Islam deals with the god/God issue as well. The general term for a god is “ilaah”. This Arabic word is a common noun, and can either refer to any supposed god, or may also refer to the unique one. This is universally accepted among all Arabic-speaking peoples. Next, we can talk about the proper noun, or his actual Arabic name. The name universally accepted among Muslims that refers to the deity of Islam is “Allah”. There is a swirl of controversy these days about the linguistic origins of that name, but the fact remains that there is no controversy whatsoever about what Islam’s deity is named. “Allah” is his proper name, the name that he calls himself, and expects others to call him. If someone would like to contest this claim, let him consider the words of Edward William Lane, the sole author of the Arabic-English Lexicon. This eight-volume authoritative series not only took thirty years to compile, but is said to far surpass every lexicon ever produced in any language. Concerning the word “Allah”, Lane says that according to the most correct opinions of Arab grammarians, which are more than thirty in number, Allah “is a proper name”. Also, Abdul Mannan Omar, the editor of the Encyclopedia of Islam, and translator of the Qur’an into English, says directly that Allah “is not a common noun” and, like Lane, declares it to be a “proper name” (The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an p.28, 29).

    1. ‘Mereka cuba membawa umat ini ke ke arah kesesatan pemikiran. Dengan biaya dari dana yang besar, mereka-mereka ini telah diternak supaya menyuntik dosis-dosis pemikiran kacau ke dalam minda bawah sedar umat Islam. Sama seperti apa yang dilakukan oleh ulama’ Yahudi ketika menolak untuk percaya bahawa Allah itu satu seperti yang disebut di dalam Deuteronomy fasal 6 ayat 4.

      שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.
      Shema Yisrael, Yahuwa Eloheinu Yahuwa Ehad
      Dengarlah wahai Israel, Yahuwa Tuhan Kamu, Dia adalah Ahad (Esa)

      Sama juga sepertimana yang dilakukan oleh ulama’ Yahudi ketika berdepan dengan Isa a.s. ketika mana mereka bertanyakan kepada Isa tentang apakah dia rukun ajaran yang paling utama? Lalu Isa menjawab seperti berikut :

      28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus (PBUH) answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”

      Isa kembali mengulang apa yang telah disebut berulangkali di dalam Taurat sepertimana yang dinyatakan di dalam Deuteronomy fasal 6 ayat 4.

      Sama juga ketika mana ulama’ Yahudi datang membawa persoalan yang sama sepertimana diajukan kepada Musa dan Isa sebelum ini kepada Rasulullah. “Terangkan kepada kami, siapa itu Allah?”

      Lalu Allah merotan mereka dengan sebuah surah yang berisi satu ultimatum ke atas mereka.

      بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ

      قُلۡ هُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ
      اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ
      لَمۡ یَلِدۡۙ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ
      وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّهّ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ

      Jika dahulu, mereka mengajuk-ajuk perkataan Musa dengan berulang kali mengulang “Shema Yisrael…(שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל)” yang bermaksud “Dengarlah Bani Israel…” sedangkan apa yang dituntut Taurat dan Allah pada ketika itu ialah mereka memahami dan menyatakan dengan bersungguh-sungguh bahawa Tuhan itu satu dan bukan diadakan-adakan sekutu baginya.

      Setelah pertanyaan itu dibawakan kepada Muhammad s.a.w., maka Allah menjawabnya dengan surah al Ikhlas. Dari Shema (שְׁמַע – Dengar)yang mereka selalu ulang-ulangkan, Allah mengubahnya kepada satu tuntutan untuk mereka isytiharkan dengan mulut mereka sendiri bahawa Allah itu Esa.

      Perhatikan bagaimana surah al Ikhlas diwahyukan bukan hanya setakat jawapan kepada persoalan ulama’ Yahudi tersebut, malah ia bertujuan menghentikan kepura-puraan mereka di dalam mempersendakan ketauhidan kepada Allah sepertimana yang telah dilakukan oleh umat Yahudi dan Nasrani. Perhatikan bagaimana mereka mengajuk Musa dan kemudian Isa tetapi apabila sampai kepada Muhammad, perbuatan mengajuk tersebut dihentikan dengan ultimatum surah al Ikhlas.

      Jika selama ini mereka mengajuk Musa dan Isa dengan menyatakan kalimah persaksian mereka dengan mengulangi apa Deuteronomy fasal 6 ayat 4..

      Dengarlah Bani Israel, Yahuwa Tuhan kamu, Dia adalah Ahad (Esa).

      Tetapi apabila berhadapan dengan Muhammad, mereka dipaksa Allah untuk mengisytiharkan dengan lisan mereka bahawa Allah itu Esa. Dari Shema-שְׁמַע (Dengar!) kepada Qul-قُلۡ (Katakan/Isytiharkan!)

      Katakanlah (Isytiharkan!), Dia-lah Allah, yang Maha Esa.’

      Read more here

      http://satuhala.blogspot.com/2013/09/isu-nama-allah-belum-garisan-penamat.html#more

  15. Hoho.. behold my Christian friends….. you are please to use Tuhan as God. Why do you want to use Allah when even your Pope in Vatican not using it. Even when Bible translated from Hebrew (OT) or Greek (NT) to English, elohim and theos translated to God, not Allah.

    You want God to be translated in BM. Tuhan is that word… Allah is your Lord there is no doubt, but the way you worship Allah and said God is begotten and begets, God is like coffee 3in1, that is what we Muslims go against…

    christians must now busied yourselves for returning back to Bible.. not to Pakiam, some saints or Paul.. then let us talk about narrowing gap between Muslims and Christians in Malaysia.. jangan la obvious sangat nak menyebar dakyah songsang korang tu kat orang lain

Comments are closed.