Posted in Dosa Umno

Kalimah Allah: Orang Melayu tidakkah geram dengan Parti Paling Tidak Apa itu?

I’ve copypasted in full below the BBC analysis of Monday’s ‘Allah’ verdict by the Court of Appeal.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24516181

By Jennifer Pak (BBC News, Kuala Lumpur)
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“The verdict does not come as a surprise to the two million Christians in Malaysia. Many of them believe that the case stems from a tight race between the governing Malay-Muslim party, UMNO, and the opposition Islamic party, PAS.
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The Allah ban is seen as an attempt by UMNO to boost its Islamic credentials and win back votes. It’s an issue that crops up in the government-linked media ahead of an election and promptly dwindles after the vote.
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Christians are so convinced that this issue is about political posturing that most followers say they will continue to use the offending Bibles and use the word Allah in their worship.
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Not all Muslims back the ban. But one of the most outspoken supporters is an influential group called Perkasa, which is backed by former prime minister Mahathir Mohamad – a champion of Malay-Muslim rights.”
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To summarize the BBC so-called analysis by Ms Jennifer Pak (a Chinese):

(1) Christians believe the case stems from political rivalry between Umno and PAS.

(2) Umno is exploiting the issue to (a) boost its Islamic credentials, and (b) win back votes.

(3) Christians are convinced that Umno is politically posturing over this.

(4) It’s a Perkasa agenda.

Like duh!

From all the venting in cyberspace, it seems that Umno is viewed as being responsible for the judges ruling the way they did. Semua salah Umno. Semua tangan hitam Umno. Sheeesh …

(1) The BBC says that the court case stems from the “tight race” between PAS and Umno.

(i) Wrong. Umno is miles ahead in terms of getting Malay support.

(ii) And the two parties are striking different positions. So how can it be a “tight race” when each is going in different direction? PAS is inclined to allow the Christians the leeway, whereas Umno is not.

(iii) The verdict will cause the BN, which is led by Umno, to lose some native Christian votes.

It will also make PAS lose some Malay votes from being seen as wishy-washy in the defence of Muslim interests.

We know how important the Sabah and Sarawak “fixed deposit” is to the BN, so why in the world would Umno choose to gamble with this issue and jeopardize its vote bank?

For PAS on the other hand, it is continually put on the backfoot by the DAP’s posturing (yup, this is the party that is doing the posturing, for the BBC’s information), and similarly PAS’s traditional support base is also put at risk over this issue.

Hence, in what the BBC blabs as the “tight race”, it really benefits neither party to have this Allah thing blow up. A lose-lose situation for both Umno and PAS.

(2) Umno president Najib Razak did not comment nor tweet about the verdict. Neither did the liberal Umno Youth chief. I’m uncertain that even the DPM made any comment. If Umno is said to be exploiting the issue, why is the party so subdued?

(3) The Christian’s deep conviction about the alleged “political posturing” by Umno. This is by the Parti Paling Tidak Apa, okay. Roll my eyes.

(4) At least the BBC got this one half correct. Ibrahim Ali came out with a strong, immediate statement and Perkasa vice president Zul Noordin has been at the forefront. But they’re don’t represent the Umno mainstream. Neither are members of the Umno supreme council. They’re not Umno Ministers. Nor are they the Umno Menteris Besar. Heck, we’re not even sure if they’ve signed up to be Umno members yet.

Plain and simple

This ‘Allah’ case is a hot potato because it affects the very foundation of Islam (I got this from regular commenter Shamshul Anuar).

And it is the umat Islam who are most concerned because it is a matter of akidah. In all of this, Umno remains the Parti Paling Tidak Apa. How come nobody’s giving any credit to the deep and genuine concern felt by the ordinary Muslim but instead projecting Umno conspiracy theories?

Honestly, if I were a Muslim, Umno would surely give me tekanan darah tinggi and make me burst a blood vessel because the party is so very tidak apa dalam menangani isu. Look at how many showcause letters were sent by the Home Ministry to the Herald — letter after letter after letter. Memang betul Menteri Amaran dalam Negeri yang tidak berupaya mengambil apa-apa tindakan.

How can Umno so lose the plot that a major news organization like the BBC can get its story so wrong and so pro-Christian biased? As I’ve said before, Umno has got precious little influence over the narrative.

In this kalimah Allah issue, it is the DAP evangelista who are in control of the narrative that is going out to the international audience.

Klu saya seorang lelaki Melayu, awal-awal lagi dah aku mengamok dengan Umno! parti yang paling tidak apa itu!!

Related:

DAP SuperCyber Bully slams the judges

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141 thoughts on “Kalimah Allah: Orang Melayu tidakkah geram dengan Parti Paling Tidak Apa itu?

  1. I think Zahid is waiting to reply those who attacks the judgement of the court, AFTER UMNO election.

    Let’s wait and see.

    1. Didalam kitab Bible Arab, Allah adalah umum ganti untuk Tuhan, manakala mereka masih memanggil yang khusus sebagai YWH. Ramai orang terpelajar Kristian tidak gemar dengan penggantian tuhan secara umum kepada Allah

      Hujah pejuang Kristian di Malaysia, Allah mereka sama dengan Allah umat Islam di negara ini. Lansung tidak sebenarnya. Allah kami khusus. Kamu khusus YWH dan si Chua Jui Meng seronok ambil ayat ayat Al-Quran sparuh separuh.

      ika baca pelbagai kertas rujukan dari Christian Scholars, ada ramai yang tidak setuju Allah digunakan di Arabic Bible kata salah satunya senang untuk Pendakwah Islam memanupulasikan fakta untuk berdakwah kepada orang orang Kristian, dan ada juga Pendakwah Kristian kata walau salah konsep nama di Bible ianya boleh digunakan untuk bahan mendekati saudara Islam dengan lebih mudah.

      Jika kita lihat di Sabah dan Sarawak ramai orang Kristian yang menjadi Islam bukan sebaliknya. Kekalkan kalimah Allah. Lebih mudah untuk mendekati mereka. Seorang Kristian Sabah yang saya kenali tidak setuju dengan penggunaan Kalimah Allah sebagai pengganti Tuhan. Mungkin beratus tahun yang lepas ialah senang untuk berdakwah menarik ramai yang menutur Bahasa Melayu/Indonesia untuk tertarik kepada Kristianiti, tetapi sekaran sudah ‘backfire’ katanya.

      Jadi kalau saya jadi NGO Melayu saya akan sokong dibenarkan guna Kalimah Allah senang untuk berdakwah. Malah jika saya pendakwah saya akan gunakan kesempatan ini untuk ‘out reach’ apa bezanya Allah saya dan Allah kamu.

      Kita ramai expert yang tidak pernah pergi sekolah. Ramai menzahirkan opnion tanpa kaji selidik.

      Pada saya umat Islam di Negara tidak perlu risau sangat dan cari ‘silver lining’.

      Selagi ramai yang mengatakan ini isu politik memang akan buta selamanya kerana ini adalah perjuangan sifat-sifat Tuhan yang kita sembah. Allah di Bible bukan Allah di Quran.

      Sedihnya yang mempertahankan Kalimah Allah pun ramai tak faham apa akar umbi isu ini sebenarnya. Ramai yang hanya ikut buta buta. Malah ramai juga yang menggunakan nya untuk tambah populariti sebagai calon winnable ‘UMNO’ atau ahli PAS yang progresif dan memahami.

      1. ‘Jadi kalau saya jadi NGO Melayu saya akan sokong dibenarkan guna Kalimah Allah senang untuk berdakwah. Malah jika saya pendakwah saya akan gunakan kesempatan ini untuk ‘out reach’ apa bezanya Allah saya dan Allah kamu.’

        Niat baik kamu hanya Allah SWT saja yang dapat balas. Tapi kita boleh buat apa yang anda dambakan tanpa perlu kita benarkan orang lain menghina Allah SWT dengan pemahaman yang salah. Sememangnya Allah SWT tidak akan menunjukkan rasa terhina secara zahir kita, manusia, tetapi seeloknya, apabila Perlembagaan Persekutuan sendiri sudah menyatakan Islam sebagai agama Persekutuan, makanya, eloklah juga kita bersyukur dan menunjukkan rasa syukur dengan memurnikan nama Allah SWT, Tuhan sekelian alam, semoga Allah SWT memuliakan kita semua pula. Amin.

        Ketidakikhlasan mereka yang berpolitik tentunya hanya Allah SWT yang Maha Mengetahui dan Dia lah berhak membalasnya, kita sesama hamba-Nya, tidak perlulah kita berburuk sangka dan menjatuhkan hukum yang Allah SWT saja berhak lakukan.

  2. I agree. I was angry at Umno over the Allah issue and I would have felt compelled to do something if the verdict was different. But since the verdict is in our favour and help cement the constitutional position of Islam, I can’t be bothered with Umno’s stand in all of this. I do not have any faith in Umno to stand for Islam or the Malays, unless the Muslim Malay is one of their own. And the recent Umno wings results provide further evidence that Umno is not for me and the Malays in rural Malaysia.

    The Umno government is also totally unreliable to stand up for Islam and the Malays. The evidence is in the media, both local and international. On every major issue that arose in the past few years (ranging from Bersih, election, Anwar, LGE’s badmouthing the nation, Rosmah, kalimah Allah), the UMNO government has not been able to make a stand and looked foolish or weak.

    And to the two million Christian who are upset with the verdict, ask yourselves this question – when something happens and you say in English “oh my god!”, if you have to say that phrase in Malay what would be your response. As a Malay Muslim, I would say “Ya Allah!” or in a weak moment “Ya, tuhan!”. What would you say, honestly?

    1. PAS also at fault in looking the other way with regards of this kalimah Allah issue.

      Don’t you forget about that.

      1. As angry as I am to UMNO, I’m more sakit hati to PAS. How dare they side themselves with DAP on this issue. They lost my vote forever after the Allah issue.

        :(sarah

        1. Hi Sarah,

          As I understand PAS provided an Islamic perspective for their basis to allow Christians to use Allah.

          You would know that the exception is only Malaysia i.e. that only in Malaysia, do (some) Muslims say that Christians cannot use Allah. Many learned Islamic scholars in Malaysia also agree that Christians can use the term Allah.

          Furthermore, with this court of appeals decision, Malaysia is the only country where Christians are not allowed to use Allah, despite having constitutional guarantees for freedom of religion.

          You definitely have the right to choose who to vote for, but I would suggest that it be done by deliberating on the issue, rather than simply hatred for something.

          Best
          Greg

          1. Greg,

            I heard a lot of opinion in this issue. One and foremost is that, for Allah name to be used you must ensure that the god is only one not to be born and don’t have a chilren.

            Even my Christian friends agree with this. To my friends, the fight of using Allah in bible will under minds the status of Kristians as the Religions of the choosen. It also will agree with the claim of the muslim all around the world that their god Allah is the TRUE God for the humankind.

            I’m a Muslim Greg, and I can understan my friends feeling on how this things playing havoc to the Christians believed as my religious has been misunderstand for a thousand years.

            I read a lot about others religions and as far as my reading goes, each and everyone of this religions have their specific God name assign to them. My opinions, this happen because in a way, God want people to lives harmonious with one anothers regardless their religions.

            We human tend to be possasive especially with our own. This different will simplyfied the matter. You know your own God and will not confusing it with others. What we the worshipper of all religions must do is respect others religions God. I’m not saying that is easy but it is the first step.

            By taking others religions God name and making it your own, it likes slapping to a face of two religions at once. In this case, Islam and Kristian,

            Kristian for naming their Holy Father Of God with the same accepted name of The muslim God and the muslim for naming the Father Of God as Allah as muslim believed that God is only one and he is not married and will never have a son. If this name accepted to be used, what will become to Jesus and Mary?

            By using the same name, it also will created a bubble of possesiveness and misunderstanding of who wil be superior and better in the God grace. It is the seed of distruction on inter religious relationship. And Greg, this is very dangerous as history proved it time and time again..

            That is why I won’t agree with the used of Allah by other religions. I’m not only thinking of my religion, I’m thinking of others too.

            If others can simply used The word Allah as translation to their own God, what make others religions God name like Buddha, Mahabratta, Yuli Agong, Krishna exclusively protected from the same treatment. They will hell bound to used it to.

            Understand that Some God name existing for thousand of years, more than Kristians and Islam existing when considering academicly this two religions is a new religions. How does this old religions follower will feel if we simply using their God name to replace our God without realising their God own characteristic? It is like a nuclear bomb waiting to explode..

            This is a dangerous game and it must be stop.

            :dsarah

                1. Greg,

                  I think Waleed Aly just loved to play with fire. A few times he is landing in his backside because of his artical. Somehow he just like JStar editor releasing the provoke rtical and then moved to other prey.

                  I read it if I accidently stumble it in my reaserch. Otherwise, his is not on my reading list as a lot of times I find his rumbling is like a kids who’s a mother refuse to gives a cookies before dinner. And that how I place Waleed Aly. I rather watch Jaremy Kyle with his repeated same old same old guests problem than reading some of his rumbing.

                  :psarah

      2. Yes, but then I have quite often overlooked PAS since PAS is not the establishment. While PAS should stand with UMNO on this issue, the fact that they don’t is quite expected because let’s face it they will say the sky is red if Umno makes a stand that the sky is blue.

        1. for me..tujuan sebenarnya pembangkang sebulat suara menyokong penggunaan kalimah Allah oleh bukan islam.. adalah, pilihanraya dun sarawak akan berlangusng lebih awal… 65/70% rakyat sarawak adalah bukan muslim.. dulu isu ini sudah senyap..

          siapa yg timbulkan kembali? ya. Lim Guan Eng.. utk?.. untuk menembusi sarawak.. naikkan sedikit sentimen keagamaan.. easy vote for PR. Kerana mereka tahu, Umno pasti akan mempertahankan Kalimah Allah.. so PR akan dilihat sebagai “Champion” oleh non-muslim di sarawak.

      3. That is why Hadi Awang lost in Kuala Terenganu and Datuk Harun Taib lost in Arau in PRU13. Both are Ulama and they failed to make a strong stand on “Kalimah Allah” prior PRU13.

            1. Yes, Mat Sabu in Pendang in GE13 but in K. T’ganu in GE12.

              Raja Kamarul Bahrin contested K. T’ganu in GE13 and won.

              Hadi Awang did not lose any of his state or Parliament (Marang) seats in both GE12 & 13. Rhu Rendang is a state seat.

          1. Helen,

            Mat sabu lost in 2004, 2008 and 2013.

            But it was not mainly due to PAS alliance with DAP (or submitting to DAP).

            This is a peculiar situation. Mat Sabu lost because Malay community DOES NOT TRUST him. He is popular, not respected. People like to listen to his “ceramah”. But they see Mat Sabu more like a clown or court jester.

            In Kedah dialect, Mat Sabu is “haprak’. Meaning good for nothing.
            Mat sabu triumphs in anarchy.

            He is in this predicament as he loves to “mengumpat”. Some self reflection will do wonder to this sick soul.

    2. “And to the two million Christian who are upset with the verdict, ask yourselves this question – when something happens and you say in English “oh my god!”, if you have to say that phrase in Malay what would be your response.”

      The reason why you (and even I) would make this statement is that we probably mix with the Christians from Peninsular who are Chinese, Indians and Eurasians. From what I gather from the newspapers 60% of the 2 million Christians are actually East Malaysian Bumiputras whose primary language (in addition to their native dialects) is Malay; so probably we need to ask them this and not make such a general assumption.

      Whilst I am happy with the results of the Appeals Court, I somehow think that we cannot just ignore the Bumiputra Christians in Sabah and Sarawak and how this will affect them.

      1. Maybe you’re right. The few Christians from East Malaysia I know speak English. So it’s always OMG or Jesus Christ as exclamations. So, I still would like to know what is the equivalent exclamation in Malay.

    3. Why angry to UMNO?
      Why Not PAS?
      Who stand Up for Kalimah ALLAH? Isn’t goverment?
      who is gov? Isn’t UMNO?

  3. Memang UMNO sekarang sudah jadi parti tidak apa. Dari ‘their red lips president’ sampailah pada ahli ahli biasa semuanya jadi tidak apa. Itu sebabnya orang Melayu biasa sudah tidak ada apa apa perasaan lagi terhadap UMNO. ‘We feel nothing’ terhadap UMNO!.

    Survival UMNO dalam PRU ke 13 bergantung kepada undi orang Melayu yang ketika itu percaya masih ada kelipan api lilin untuk mereka berjuang untuk kepentingan agama Islam, negara dan bangsa terutamannya.

    Sekarang dengan kemenangan KJ sebagai KP UMNO harapan sebesar kerlipan api lilin telah padam. Harapan Mukhriz untuk menang Vice President makin malap. Golongan yang menang hari itu akan pastikan dia kecundang. Makin tidak ada siapa siapa lagi pemimpin yang menarik dalam UMNO!

    Mereka yang menang pemilihan jangan perasaan. Mereka menang bukan sokongan semua orang Melayu malah bukan semua ahli UMNO! Cuma ahli ahli UMNO yang layak mengundi dan masih boleh dimanipulasi

    Saya tertarik hati dengan ramalan pemilihan UMNO 2018 dalam blog Annie. Ramalan itu mungkin jadi kenyataan. Dengan barisan kepimpinan yang tidak apa itu, apa lagi keistemewaan yang ada dalam UMNO di mata orang Melayu?

    Berjuang untuk bangsa, agama dan negara?

    Pooooorahlah!

    1. Helen,

      Yup. You are right. With due respect to UMNO, I strongly believe all members of UMNO Supreme council deserve a “good slapping” on face.

      “rasa macam nak terajang saja”. That was my mother in law’s response when some moron brought PSY from Korea to entertain rakyat( meaning Chinese voters).

      And I am upset with Nazir when he said DEB was “bastardized”. It is tantamount to spitting on his own father, Tun Razak. He simply forgot that he is at helm of CIMB not purely on him being brilliant. His name opens door naturally.

      I have enough of “Melayu lupa diri” who proudly proclaimed they are malaysian first but chose to compete in “Melayu pekat” areas. why not stand on heavily chinese are like Ipoh Barat or Petaling Jaya. see whether your Malaysian first tag brings vote from Chinese.

      UMNO’s “tidak apa”s attitude literally destroy Malay strengh. NO ACTION TAKEN ON ASTRO BOY WHO LIED THAT THERE WAS MASSIVE BLACKOUT during vote counting after election.

      Why? Cant Najib see that part of the proble lies with AG’s office.?

    1. Firstly, its difficult to equate Islam with religious pluralism.

      Secondly, for me this issue is strictly in the context of Malaysia, and I strongly believe that the word god cannot be translated to Allah in Malay. Even on a straight forward English-Malay translation (let’s ignore the theology for the moment), god in English is not and will never be Allah in Malay. It”s TUHAN. I think you learn that in Primary One.

      Thirdly, if you surf the internet, yes, you will find that the Muslims are not truly united on this issue. But then again, if you google for the Christians stand on the issue, you will also find dissent among them.

    2. Greg Lopez,

      Not to worry. Muslims do not have the “monopoly” on being duped again and again. It happens across the board. Meaning all religions are affected.

      in this “Allah” case, may I ask you why it is so important for christians to use “Allah” when the word has never been mentioned even once in Bible old or King James version?

      Why none of my Christian friends when asked never said they worship “allah?”. All of them said “jesus”

      1. Hi Shamsul,

        I think the point of law (which the court was asked to adjudicate) is whether Malaysian Christians have the right to call their God whatever they want.

        Meaning, do a Malaysian Christian, have the freedom, to call their own god, whatever, they want under the Federal Constitution.

        The High Court decision decided yes.

        The court of appeal has said no for the following reasons based on the submission of the government.

        (1) That Muslims may riot and kill Christians if Christians are allowed to use Allah (peace and order argument).

        (2) That Islam is the supreme religion of Malaysia, and if anything others does (Muslim and non-Muslims alike), that offends Islam and Muslims (often these groups are not the ordinary Muslims who just want to go about their daily lives but those linked to power within the current Malaysian system) (Islam as the religion of the federation argument).

        But here is the irony

        The Deputy Home Minister has now said that the Allah ban is only in Peninsular Malaysia and in printed materials only, and not to Sabah & Sarawak at all.

        Can you explain how is Allah exclusive to Muslims when the government has said the above?

        1. Sorry — here is the source. The Deputy Minister even went on to say that the government can decide to not enforce the Court of Appeal ruling.

          http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/putrajaya-can-override-courts-on-allah-says-deputy-home-minister

          * And sorry, no. 2 was not coherent.

          (2) That Islam is the supreme religion of Malaysia, and if anything others does (Muslim and non-Muslims alike), that offends Islam and Muslims then it should be stopped. (Islam as the religion of the federation argument).

          So, the question then becomes, if today Allah, what happens tomorrow should a small group decide that something else is offensive. For example no songs about Jesus in public spaces, no crosses or Christian symbols in Catholic schools, maybe ban Christianity altogether.

          A rhetorical question to you Shamsul. Have you wondered that
          Christianity has been in Malaysia for the past 500 years, why only since 2007 — when UMNO began to lose its power the Malay community — did Allah become an issue?

          * Just to note that often these groups — who claim that Christians are a threat are not the ordinary majority Muslims. Ordinary Muslims just want to go about their daily lives. They want good schools, good teachers, good infrastructure, good jobs.

          It is those in power under the current system that are causing these problems.

          1. perhaps this pak girl should shed some light on the chronology of the event. it was not umno which in the first place brought this thing up. it was the federation of church malaysia under pakiam who brought it. kdn acted on its judgement under law. of course the mass malay muslim is angry of the federation of church to use the special name that is Allah as some god that has different attribute than the one they learn and knew all along.

            yes, not to mention muslim, any individual want good school, infra, yada, yada… but the difference is we hold our religion as paramount in our life. that means, not only worldly needs that you mentioned but also the afterlife including our belief that is more important. thus, you cant equate the so called mainstream human rights to be applied to the entire muslim community.

          2. Greg ,

            No need to “wonder’. For the past 500 years, Christianity in this so called ‘tanah Melayu” did not use the word “Allah”.

            Only recently in its quest to “murtadkan” Malay Muslim community, Christian preachers finds the “need” to use “allah” .

            It is not about UMNO or PAS. It is about the very foundation of islam. UMNO only reacts simply because its members are also Muslims. And Malay community expects UMNO to reject Christians attempt to use ‘Allah”.

            It has nothing to do with political power. The choice is very simple to UMNO and PAS. Agree to Christian using “allah” and Malays will abandon these parties.

            1. Hi Shamsul,

              Do you have evidence of this quest to “murtadkan” malay Muslim community.

              Otherwise, this is fitnah.

              Also, here is an illustration of the use of Allah in the Malay archipelago.

              Christian missionaries used local language to preach the faith wherever they went (in Chinese, in Japanese, in Malay, etc.), i.e. they did not preach in English. So the use of Allah is widespread among non-English speaking

              I have attended several Bahasa mass, and the use of Allah is common.

              Maybe have a talk to Sabahan and Sarawakian Bumiputera Christians (those who use Bahasa as their first language) to get further information.

              Best
              Greg

              1. ‘I have attended several Bahasa mass, and the use of Allah is common.’

                Of course more and more are using BM now. In Butterworth they are roping in the Indonesians and having their mass in BM er BI, bahasa Indonesian that is.

                And with more Orang Asli being made Christians, the more they will say that these Orang Asli, who had their very own dialects, would refer to God as Allah, as taught by them with the already massive printed AlKitab.

                The Dutch and Portuguese who was not native in the first place had got it wrong to have translated God into Allah. Their mistake should not be left unchecked, yes? Same goes to the tutup sebelah mata by the KDN for the Indonesian bibles being brought into Sabah and Sarawak.

                As far as Malaysia is concerned, the Bahasa Malaysia translation of God is Tuhan. Why should our lives being left dictated by some unlearned, feringghi scholars?

                1. Hi Islam1st,

                  “…Why should our lives being left dictated by some unlearned, feringghi scholars?…”

                  Very good question. But I do not have the answer.

                  But I do know this:

                  The Government of Malaysia did not challenge the use of Allah for its historicity.

                  This is because in law, there is a way of arguing i.e. there is a particular logic in presenting your case.

                  It is an established fact that Christians have been using Allah for more than hundreds of years, and its documented, and that is why the Government did not use the common assertion made by many (that Christians have only used Allah recently or that the use of Allah is new) in their defence.

                  Rather they stated:
                  – It will cause confusion to Muslim Malaysians (not proven)
                  – It will cause unrest (not proven — the unrest caused is because of the failure of the rule of law)
                  – It will diminish the Supremacy of Islam (article 4 of the FC says that the Constitution is Supreme, and not Islam)

                  As for what Malaysian Christians call their God — well that is the point of law that Malaysian Christians want to clarify — that Christians have the freedom to call their God, what they want as stipulated by the Federal Constitution.

                  Best
                  Greg

                  1. Greg,

                    Really. Then why all Christians whom I asked said that they worship Jesus. None answered “allah’

                    Why? Contrary to what you may want to feel, majority Christians also do not agree with Christian using Allah. Only some Christian preachers.

                    Do enlighten me why it is so important to use “Allah” when the word is not even once mentioned in Bible. If you believe Bible is the word of your God, why your God (as what you believe, Jesus) never used “Allah”.

                  2. ‘It is an established fact that Christians have been using Allah for more than hundreds of years’

                    Something happens beyond Malaysian shores, is definitely not a concern of ours.

                    ‘and that is why the Government did not use the common assertion made by many (that Christians have only used Allah recently or that the use of Allah is new) in their defence.’

                    I believe it was unnecessary to do so, as thoroughly explained by all the three judges.

                    ‘that Christians have the freedom to call their God’

                    Not at the expense of the Muslims and Islam as the religion of the Federation and other religion may be practiced ‘dengan aman dan damai’ as stressed by the judges.

          3. .
            .
            .

            .

            .
            Greg and other esteemed readers

            Salam 1 malaysia

            The thing I want to touch upon is

            the need for mutual R-E-S-P-E-CT.

            Greg , you like other evangelical christians

            you want the name Allah as a matter of right-

            your unalienable right as a citizen of Malaysia.

            One cannot have unbounded rights that

            transgresses someone else’s rights. Catholics

            demanding a right to call Allah your god

            must know that at the next door of your house

            live the Melayus whose right begin. Katolics come

            to Malaysia and the Melayus have been kind enough

            to accomodate you as neighbours. And to think

            that catholics have bullied brother melayus in

            Indonesia and fellow melayus in the Phillipines

            who had been converted en masse by the catholics!

            Who is going to fight for the rights of the Phillipine

            Melayus to uphold their ancestral religion- Islam?

            The catholics in my mind are a

            devil incarnate .

            Can the melayus here trust that the catholics will not

            use the word Allah to attract muslims to become catholics?

            Probably not.

            The catholics have had a treachorous reputation in history.

            Look at the contradictions that the catholics had introduced

            in the al kitab in the translation of holy ghost.

            Holy ghost simply translated from the conceptual event that

            purportedly had taken place would be -holy pontianak.

            Yet the dutch willy nilly wrongly translated it as ‘roh kuddus’

            In Islam attributes of Allah are memorized by children and

            God’s attributes are invariably the opposite of that of a man..

            Sample attributes-1. Man is created and procreates in turn.

            2. Man lives for a finite life- x number of years

            Attributes of Allah
            ——————-

            1. Allah is not created and does not create.

            Melayus will have to insist that the first line of the bible

            has got to go into the dustbin.

            3. Allah is omniprescient- exist from infinity and will

            exist until infinity. Surely any reasonable man will ask

            why christian god has a father and a son- that is a man’s

            attribute. And the third component 3 in 1 god

            of the catholic god [from line1, page 1 of the bible] , the

            holy ghost is translated wrongly as ‘roh kuddus’ again

            using arabicised malay words which roughly mean a good roh.

            Roh is a life given to man when he is born and we know

            that it has an expiry date -meaning that roh is finite.

            Is it not strange that the first line of the bible

            emphasised that the catholic God is human like [having

            a Father] , It has a Son and to add injury to God’s

            image the Melayu translation says that it has a man

            like attribute -having an expiry date !

            Simply put , the catholic bible is beyond belief [my take]

            It has a father, it has a Son and It has a finite life [roh]

            as can be seen when Jesus died!

            Do you still blame me for insisting that I have a right to

            insist that ‘My’ Allah has attributes of Infinite existence-

            Omniprescient -He will and had existed infinitely! At my door

            catholics et al will have rights other that aforementioned

            concepts and both belief are mutually exclusive. You keep your

            belief and me melayus will keep my belief as per surah Al Kafirun.

            One ‘ easy ‘[cincai-lah] lawyer Aziz Bari declared such a declaration

            would make the melayus a laughing stock to the world. I would say

            F$$$k You to him and all who shared his opinion!

            Interestingly Bari did not feel shy when

            [V.K.] Lingam who had been shown to have transgressed

            an acceptable behaviour is still in the Register of the bar Council!

            He is an example of a lawyer who is unclear of the concept of rights…

            So Greg, u can review this or follow Bari in his fight for stupidity..

            is the holy

            can glean from the movies ‘Elizabeth 1 ‘ and ‘Elizabeth 11’!

          1. Hi Shamsul.

            Read the High Court decision. All the facts are there including where Allah is in the Bible.

            You can also google search to find out. Its been in the Malay language since the 15th century.

            1. The Dutch translation uses Allah because they needed a familair term for god that is familiar to to local Muslim natives because they have failed to proletyze through Dutch.

              The use of Allah as god is proven to be used as a missionary tool, not for worship.

              Greg, I know you think you are smart but not so, if so the bible use Allah since 15th century, pray, tell all the Europeans and the Catholic church to use that version 100%, opppps… but the Dutch Leidjecker translation is not by a Catholic but by a Protestant…… since both consider each other as ‘Lost’… where do we go from here.

              This shows that the devious paedophiliac Catholic Church is not consistent in its theology.. they have to use the translation of a another competing Christian denomination to make that case, by right Leidjecker version of the bible is considered lost in translation in the first place ..lol

              Read here for more details, dont read syiok sendiri by ur own circle of friends
              http://satdthinks.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/leijdecker-s-original-sin-allah-in.html

              1. Hi Forrestcat,

                I’m not smart.

                I’m just trying to dialogue in a respectable and honest manner, without degrading anyone, in the hope that we (all Malaysians) can all find the truth, and resolve this, and many other issues in an amicable manner.

                Yes, the Catholic Church have done terrible things. Its on record. We are all sinners and rely on the mercy of God for forgiveness and strength to live decent lives.

                But coming back to your point of the use of Allah.

                Here are a list of articles written by Dr. Ng Kam Weng, providing evidence. Have a read.

                http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2013/01/collated-resources-christians-from-pre-islam-arab-christians-to-bumiputera-christians-have-the-right-to-use-allah/

                And also look up these publications.

                Best
                Greg

              2. By the way Forrestcat, not sure who is sad thinks (or pure shite — the link you gave). Do you have any respectable resources to support your views, that I can read.

                Thanks
                Greg

                1. As a new mandala journalist you can surely see that SatD references his research, more credible than new mandala. Plus, SatD interacts well with the readers.

                  Pre islamic Christians? Were there any pre islamic christian in Borneo and nusantara or religions that us Allah-God..the answer is No? Hence those conjectures by fanatic christians do not apply to christians in Nusantara that have the word tuhan for god on Malay. Anglophile idiots Waleed Aly assumes that Malays is a bastardized language that borrows almost everything from Arab, im not sure f he is christian or muslim, but this guy proves thst anglophile arabs are probably stuouder than their deset counterparts because in his article he is convinced that the word god in Malay is zallah when it is not. The word Allah is incorporated into the bible for missionary purposed, period, hence zi agree that using Allah, the deity of Islam is inconsistemt with catholic thelology domihated by the Europeans.

                  The use of Allah or Ilah applies for Arabs who can differentiate the Islamic deity from the generic term zilah, if both sound the same, the spelling differ greatly by the letter lam which l.

                  The missionaries are spinning this issue to fracture the Islamic identity of the Malaysian constitution which guarantees the supremeity of Islam and its subjects.

                  The Malaysian court is absolute right within the context of the Constitution which bars the use of Allah as a missionary tool to proletyze Muslims, which is what it is meant for, if Malaysia goes alone in banning Allah in the screwed up Malay bibles by the inconsistent Catholic Church, so be it.

              3. Hi Forrestcat,

                I tried to send this message earlier, but did not go through.

                Trying again.

                If you believe satdthinks article is credible, you should forward it on to the AG’s Chambers, so they can evaluate its usefulness for the pending appeal.

                Best
                Greg

            2. But returning to my earlier point, Shamsul, the point of law in question, is whether Christians in Malaysia have the right to call god as they deem fit.

              Meaning no other authority other than Christian religious authorities should tell Christians how to address their god.

              A corollary would be whether any organisation or entities other than Muslim religious authorities have the right to tell Muslims how to address their god.

              That is the real point of law that is being discussed here.

              Now if this decision (Court of Appeal) holds, the Federal Constitution will have to be re-written this way

              http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2013/10/welcome-to-ketuanan-islam-supremacy-of-islam-in-malaysia/

              Dr. Ng Kam Weng’s blog also has high quality research on the Allah issue which you maybe interested.

              All the best.

            3. Greg,

              Then why I cant find any word “allah” in Bible?

              Strange is it not? You insist on using “allah” when it was never mentioned in any Bible, old or newer version.

              1. Hi Shamsul,

                I hope you did not look into English bibles to find Allah — that would be silly. You would not even find Deus, or Theos, or whatever was used in ancient times.

                The Bible is translated into hundreds of languages to be used by Christians all over the world. Unlike Islam, where only Arabic is used for the Quran, the Bible has been translated many times. I’m sure you know that.

                So you should look into Bibles in the local language where the term Allah is used, to mean god, such as in the middle east and the malay archipelago.

                Read this article in Malay that provides a scholarly treatment of why Christians in the Malay archipelago use Allah.

                http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2013/09/pengharaman-penggunaan-allah-perdebatan-teologi-dan-hegemoni-ideologi/

                For a graphical illustration of the historical basis of the use of Allah, (since the 15th century in the Malay archipelago), look at this chart.

                Of course, if you read the High Court judgement, you would also find many of these same information

                Hope this helps.

                Best
                Greg

                1. Also Shamsul, I am just wondering — if these assertions are true — why did not the Government of Malaysia use this argument.

                  The Government has all the needed resources (historians, National Archives, etc.) to research and prove definitively that Christians were not using Allah.

                  1. Greg,

                    The answer is staring at your face. Look around you. All Christians say they worship Jesus.

                    So, why so hard up to use “allah”

                    1. Greg,

                      When Hannah Yeoh got a new born child, she tweeted “thankyou Jesus”.

                      You have yet to answer me where is the word “allah” in Bible.

            4. Hi Shamshul,

              I think I have not been able to explain myself clearly.

              I will try again.

              What you keep returning to (whether Christians actually use Allah) is not the issue here (or the point of law).

              The issue here (or the point of law) is whether the Government of Malaysia has the constitutional right (or power) to tell Malaysian Christians how to address their god.

              By banning The Herald from using the word Allah in its publication (the Bahasa Malaysia section which is meant for Bumiputera Catholics), the Government of Malaysia has imposed its will on Malaysian Christians on how they should address their god.

              What you are referring to (or the logic that you are using) is conceptualised as the “tyranny of the majority”, where numbers determine everything, and not principles.

              That is why the concept of the rule of law was conceived — to protect minority groups (or weaker groups), from governments, elites, and majoritarian groups who abuse their position.

              Malaysia is a constitutional democracy with a written constitution, and with fundamental liberties enshrined in it.

              Article 4 states that the supreme law of the land is the Federal Constitution.

              The Federal Constitution states that there is Freedom of Religion.

              The Herald has asked whether the Government of Malaysia (the Home Minister through the Printing Presses and Publication Act 1984) has the right to tell Herald not to use Allah in its Bahasa Malaysia section (the section for Bumiputera Catholics).

              That is the issue (or point of law), and not how many Christians use the term Allah.

              Hope this clarifies.

              Best
              Greg

              1. Greg,

                Not the tyranny of the majority. Check the constitution. Non Islamic faiths are allowed to be freely practised. But they must not be practised in a way that disturb the official religion: Islam.

                Freedom of religion is not limitless/. Do remember that you are free to practise your faith. But you cant preach your faith to Muslims or practise your belief in a way that disturb the sensitivity of Muslims.

                Not to worry about minority rights. The country ruled by brown Muslim is a model of benevolences compared to massive persecution of minorities so common in other multi racial country.

                I have a better suggestion. Advise the Herald to use generic term “Tuhan” in its publications. It should not be a problem, I believe. Especially I have yet to encounter a Christian who said he worships Allah.

                Funny is it not. Some group resist one school system. Yet they insist on using “Allah” . something is fishy here.

  4. Posted this earlier on fmt ‘Everyone are commenting as if they have so much understanding. Along the way they insulted the Muslims and they became the bigots they claimed others are.

    Before opening your mouth do your own research. Allah in the Bible replaced Elohim never YWH. Read materials from scholars both sides. Who is making this matter a political issue. There are so many PAS supporters who are supporting the judgement. Many Muslims are, regardless of their political belief.

    Perhaps these two reading materials wrote by the Arab Christians will give some fresh perspective http://www.arabbible.com/t-Allah.aspx and here http://www.arabicbible.com/for-christians/1810-the-word-allah-and-islam.html

      1. 1.Islam is the religion of the federation. But freedom of religion and worship is guaranteed.

        2.The constitution also prohibits proletyzing of Muslims by other religion.

        3.The Herald use of Allah in place of Tuhan can manifest itself as an unregulated form of proletyzing. True Herald is not highly subscribed, but it opens the opportunity for other non Islamic article particularly by Evangelists to be published using Allah=3 in 1 gods that may proletyze Muslims as Christian Avengelical movements is very active in South East Asia including Malaysia as can be seen by the rise of conversion of urban Chinese to Christianity, if the Evangelists are thrilled over the new sino flock, why not the Malays?

        Hence, the courts decision, according to the law and constitution is by definition legal and correct. Under the pretext to prevent Allah from being used to proletyze the Malay Muslims.

        1. re: “True Herald is not highly subscribed”

          The Herald can be read online by anybody … tiada sekatan.

          1. So you are saying that the Malay who are able to READ and USE INTERNET and able to even access The Herald website and intelligent enough to click the BM version and read the whole article in it are still stupid enough to be confused by mere this word? I didn’t know you think Malay are generally that stupid!

            1. Helen didn’t say any of that. All she ever said was “No restriction”.

              You’re showing your colors again. Adding stuff not said by anyone and then accusing people of saying them. You’re rally pathetic.

              Now are you the 50sen army member ?

              1. She is certainly implying that. This is her tactic in accusing the Chinese especially that they are against the gov, anti Islam and being not patriotic (patriotic means supporting UMNO). For example, She is accusing that DAP is using Allah in Christian because some of them use “Insya Allah”.

          1. They can’t even produce the exact number or evidence that Malay are converted into Christian. There is no direct evidence. Just propaganda by the fanatics.

            1. yes propaganda by the fanatics, that I agree, especially propaganda by fanatics like the evangelists who are telling the Malays that they are like brothers and sisters, donning Malay attire, occupying mosques and so on, the most despicable being the tendency to tell Malays that they are Malaysians but telling their Chinese supporters that they must vote for them because Chinese must vote for Chinese.

          2. Hello thambi,

            Ini bukan soal orang bertukar agama atau tidak, tapi ini soal akidah kami Umat Islam di Malaysia yang tidak hendak Panggilan kalimah Allah itu digunakan untuk sesuatu yang lari dari pergertian yang benar sebenar-benarnya, yakni Tuhan yang satu, tiada anak.

            Lu cakap serupa mabuk lah thambi.

        2. Hi Forrestcat,

          (1) There are specific laws penalising proselytizing by non-Muslims to Muslims.

          The various state Islamic agencies can under these laws, with sufficient evidence, charge these people in court. Any idea why these laws are not used to penalise Christians who are guilty of proselytizing, and also why are these Islamic agencies not arresting and charging the apostates?

          This would be the better option rather than banning the use of Allah.

          (2) I don’t think we can regulate the internet. Impossible logistically, and besides, if a Muslim, who goes on the internet, and then reads it on his/her own free will — that is not the definition of proselytizing.

          Also consider if Bumiputera Christians in Sabah & Sarawak, or Indonesian Christians have websites in Bahasa which use Allah, and Malay Muslims read them — what then?

          Or for graphic illustration: Thousands of people go online to watch porn. Should the state be able to arrest them? I think many Malaysian would be in jail.

          (3) Why are Muslims converting out of Islam in Malaysia especially when Islam is the world’s most popular religion. In the US and Europe, it is among the fastest growing religion.

          Also, if you are a Muslim in Malaysia, you have many benefits that non-Muslims do not have. So, I really do not understand why Muslims in Malaysia are leaving the religion (if it is true, because no one has provided any clear factual evidence).

          1. We just want to protect the word Allah from being abused and in a way mocked with things like Tuhan Bapa, Tuhan Anak and Roh Kudus.

            Jesus was claimed by Christians as a Jew, does that means the Christian God (Allah SWT, should the Christians get away with it) was/is a Jew too?

            So you see the kinds of nonsense we try to protect Allah SWT from, not that, Dia needs any kind of protection form mortals like us, I must add. But more of a gratitude from a hamba to his Creator, so that Dia pleases. That’s about it.

            Greg, I hope the Quranic explanation below would shed some light unto you.

            Surat Al-‘Ikhlāş (The Sincerity) 112(1-4) Sahih International Translation

            Say, “He is Allah , [who is] One,
            Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
            He neither begets nor is born,
            Nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

            Surat Maryam (Mary) 19 (35-36) Sahih International Translation

            It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is.
            [Jesus said], “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

            Surat At-Tawbah (The Repentance) 9 (30-33) Sahih International Translation

            The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah “; and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah .” That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
            They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
            They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
            It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

            Surat Al-Mā’idah (The Table Spread) 5 (72-75)

            They have certainly disbelieved who say, ” Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary” while the Messiah has said, “O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord.” Indeed, he who associates others with Allah – Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
            They have certainly disbelieved who say, ” Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
            So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
            The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

            Surat An-Nisā’ (The Women) 4 (155-158) Sahih International Translation

            And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, “Our hearts are wrapped”. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
            And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander, And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
            Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

            Greg, you can read and learn more here:

            http://quran.com/

            1. Dear Islam1st,

              Thank you for your kind elaboration. I appreciate that.

              I go back to the point of law — do Christians in Malaysia, have the right to call their God in the way they choose (Without others telling them what they can or cannot).

              1. On you point about abusing Allah. Why would any decent person abuse the their God.

              Judaism, Christianity and Islam are monotheistic religion i.e. we all believe in One God.

              Now the concept of the Triune God (Trinity) is complex and beyond my ability to explain here. But just let me reiterate that Christians believe in One God (not three Gods).

              We naturally have our differences (Jews, Christians and Muslims) but let that not divide us.

              2. There is no intention to convert. As I mentioned in another comment, Islam is the world’s most popular religion. In the liberal West, it is the fastest growing religion.

              So, really the question is, why is it in Malaysia, if it is true (again — no one is giving any clear facts), that Muslims are leaving Malaysia.

              3. You will be interested in the reason the Government of Malaysia gave to ban Allah.

              It was not for historical reasons. Many in this forum are saying that Christians never used Allah. But the Government of Malaysia did not raise that as an issue. In fact, they recognise the rights of Bumiputera Christians to use Allah (as outlined in the 10-point plan, and the Deputy Minister’s statement.

              4. The reasons given by the Government is that:

              – Peace and stability i.e. that some Muslims may react violently if others use Allah (e.g. church bombing, etc).
              – Muslims will be confused.
              – Supremacy of Islam

              These issues are not related to Christianity or Islam. It is related to the Government’s perception of what MAY happen, again made without any evidence.

              On peace and stability. Bumiputera Christians have been using Allah since they converted, which is hundreds of years ago. No problem there. In fact, Sabah and Sarawak are models for religious diversity. In one family, you will find a Catholic nun and the brother a Muslim cleric. This is the norm over there. We should learn from them.

              Those who have caused trouble so far are certain powerful Muslim groups who fear their positions are being threatened, not Christians, and definitely not ordinary Muslims.

              This is a law and order issue, not a religious one. If the government administers the rule of law, none of these issues would have arisen.

              For instance, the Perak Syariah Court or the Attorney General’s Chambers should have asked the Mufti of Perak to prove his allegations in a court of law. Then his allegations would have either been proven conclusively, or proven to be a lie.

              I think what Malaysia needs most is more dialogue between the different communities and also proper administration of the rule of law.

              Best
              Greg

                1. ‘1. On you point about abusing Allah. Why would any decent person abuse the their God.’

                  Tepuk Dada, Tanya Iman.

                  ‘Judaism, Christianity and Islam are monotheistic religion i.e. we all believe in One God.’

                  We, Muslims, don’t believe in Jesus as God.

                  ‘Now the concept of the Triune God (Trinity) is complex and beyond my ability to explain here. But just let me reiterate that Christians believe in One God (not three Gods).’

                  This is, I believe a matter of your opinion. Other denominations have their own take, I believe. So perhaps Christians can resolved this amongst themselves, first.

                  ‘We naturally have our differences (Jews, Christians and Muslims) but let that not divide us.’

                  Agree wholeheartedly.

                  ‘2. There is no intention to convert’

                  I don’t buy this at all. As for Muslims leaving Islam, I can’t be speaking for them, since I believe that the reasons would be extremely diverse.

                  ‘3. You will be interested in the reason the Government of Malaysia gave to ban Allah.

                  It was not for historical reasons. Many in this forum are saying that Christians never used Allah. But the Government of Malaysia did not raise that as an issue. In fact, they recognise the rights of Bumiputera Christians to use Allah (as outlined in the 10-point plan, and the Deputy Minister’s statement.’

                  As the judge has explained, there was no need for them to do so. Peace and security is paramount. The 10-point plan holds no legal standing.

                  ‘Bumiputera Christians have been using Allah since they converted, which is hundreds of years ago.’

                  Do we have documented evidence with Malaysian context?

                  ‘No problem there. In fact, Sabah and Sarawak are models for religious diversity. In one family, you will find a Catholic nun and the brother a Muslim cleric. This is the norm over there. We should learn from them.’

                  Murphy Pakiam should be made known about this fact. But I guess it is just too late, wouldn’t you say?

                  ‘Those who have caused trouble so far are certain powerful Muslim groups who fear their positions are being threatened, not Christians, and definitely not ordinary Muslims.’

                  I disagree. The Christian groups are the one who had taken the issue to court. The Muslims are merely reacting.

                  ‘If the government administers the rule of law, none of these issues would have arisen.’

                  The government, KDN, had been doing just that, since 1986. And filing the appeal also was part of the government administering the rule of law.

                  ‘For instance, the Perak Syariah Court or the Attorney General’s Chambers should have asked the Mufti of Perak to prove his allegations in a court of law. Then his allegations would have either been proven conclusively, or proven to be a lie.’

                  I’m as puzzled as you are. Government (especially ours) works in mysterious ways too. But I believe the Perak Mufti wholeheartedly. I agree that he should have just proceed with legal actions. But as a Muslim, I was aware also, that some in high positions would not want this to happen. The Perak Mufti and JAIS was being told not to gung-ho with their allegations.

                  ‘I think what Malaysia needs most is more dialogue between the different communities and also proper administration of the rule of law.’

                  This is fair and I agree.

              1. “There is no intention to convert”?!?!!?
                MUAHAHAHAHA……
                Pardon me while I laugh my guts out…..

      2. Greg, there is nothing in the constituition says that you have the right to call your god anything you wish to. I consider the Herald’s argument using constituition to be highly irresponsible – it is an attempt to equate the Kalimah Allah to freedom of religion. They are basically saying that if they lose then it implies there is no religious freedom – a black mail.

        1. Hi Calvin,

          Interesting observation.

          Two points.

          1. I think you missed an earlier message I sent to you requesting your dataset for your very interesting article on the Chinese Tsunami as I would like to re-run them. Thanks. (I’m at: gregore.lopez@anu.edu.au ).

          In response to your two immediate very interesting points.

          2a. “…Greg, there is nothing in the constitution says that you have the right to call your god anything you wish to….”

          This is the point of law, that Herald was seeking the judiciary to adjudicate (or to interpret the Constitution) – whether Herald (representing Christians) had the right to call their god whatever they wanted (in this case Allah).

          2b. “…I consider the Herald’s argument using constitution to be highly irresponsible – it is an attempt to equate the Kalimah Allah to freedom of religion. They are basically saying that if they lose then it implies there is no religious freedom – a black mail….”

          Malaysia is a theoretically a constitutional democracy designed after the Westminster system — with a separation of powers between legislature, executive and judiciary based on the rule of law i.e. a government of laws, the supremacy of the law and equality of all before the law.

          Consider the following events:

          1. The highest ranked Islamic civil servant – the Mufti of Perak makes an allegation that x number of Muslims have converted out of Islam. Interesting that with all the powers and resources invested in him, he could not charge anyone of those apostates under available laws in Perak.

          In Islam, if you cannot prove something, and yet say it — it is fitnah. Not to mention no respect for the rule of law.

          2. The same Mufti, upon receiving a text message from someone unknown, claiming that there will be mass conversions of Muslims, whips up a frenzy, and more than 200 Muslims lay siege to a Catholic Church where little children were being baptised

          No respect for the rule of law, and Islamic jurisprudence that require any allegation to be substantiated by respectable men. If fact it was mob rule.

          3. Muslims in Shah Alam defile a sacred animal of the Hindu faith to demonstrate the displeasure for the building of a Hindu temple that the state had allocated to them.

          No respect for the rule of law.

          4. Ibrahim Ali calls for jihad for alleged conversion out of Islam. Again, instead of taking those alleged apostates to the Syariah courts where they have the legal powers to penalise the, allegations (fitnah) are made.

          No respect for Islamic jurisprudence and the rule of law.

          5. DUMC incident. The Sultan says that there is evidence but insufficient to charge in court.

          Again, failure to respect Islamic jurisprudence and the rule of law.

          There are many more incidents.

          Now conversely, going back to the earlier definition of Malaysia’s system of government: a constitutional democracy premised on the rule of law. Therefore, Herald instead of disrespecting the rule of law such as those done by those above, and knowing that they had no other recourse (because Albar had made the directive public and politicised it) used the available constitutional rights accorded to them. It went to court.

          Best
          Greg

          1. Greg,

            I was away for a few days and didn’t notice your message until you reminded me about it.

            Sure, no problem at all. Give me a day or two to send it over since I need to edit the file a bit in order to remove my calculations, workings, simulations, graphics, etc. Otherwise the file will be too big to send over.

            I will also have a look at the link you had provided. A bit busy with work right now which had piled up after the holidays, do allow me a day or two to respond.

          2. Greg,

            Let me respond to your reply.

            In the matter of religious freedom I don’t think any law / constituition – be it in Malaysia or elsewhere – specifies how you should address your god. It is illogical to ask the court to intepret the constituition to grant them the right to call Jesus as Allah. There is no country in the world that allows such practise. In fact such argument is devoid of logic.

            I can understand if they base their arguments on the decades old practice in Sabah, Sarawak and Indonesia. But quoting constituional right is ridiculous.

            Imagine if the court grants the right – it would open a pandora box of controversies and would lead to religious riots. Our courts will be made to look like idiots in the eyes of the world.

            As such the action of the Church in linking constituitional right of religious freedom to the Kalimmah Allah issue is both mischievious and dangerous. In fact I think it is a highly provocative and inflammatory action that calculated to show that it they lose, then it would imply the absence of religious freedom and that christianity is not allowed to be practised in Malaysia.

            Given the historical and current hostility between Islam and Christianity, this would inflame emotions not just in Malaysia but also across the world.

            Recall the word ‘pariah” and Interlok ? Though it is a legitimate and factually correct word, Indians in Malaysia refused to accept it, claiming it an insulting term. Imagine if someone goes to court using historical usage to back up their argument and wins. Would you still argue that the word should be accepted since it is based on facts ?

            I think most Muslims don;’t have a problem if people in Sabah and Sarawak use the term Allah. In fact this is something that the govt allowed and will continue to allow. However, when Pak Lah loosed up censorship of the press, introduced greater democratization and allowed more space for freedom of expression, the Herald is among those who abused such rights by pushing the boundries too far to the edge.

            They started to import Malay Bibles via Port Klang and went to court to fight their case rather than sit down and negotiate. This is a calculated move, not so much to seek justice, but to draw international attention. And when Idris Jala offered a compromise, they refused. Is this the mark of a religion that seeks peace and love ?

            As for the antics of Mufti and Perkasa, I don’t see that as relevant to this discussion at all. These people do not represent Muslims and this is a known fact. I don’t condone these actions either.

            That DUMC incident is real and the Sultan decided not to pursue not due to a lack of evidence but to maintain religious harmony in the state.

            You seems to only notice the things you wish to see but failed to note the provocative behaviour of the evangelists toward Muslims and non Christians.

            Why didn’t you quote the politicians and religious leaders who used religion to spread hate and anti-BN message ? Why didn’t you mention Namawee who insults Malays and Muslims ? Why no mention of Patrick Teoh who spews profanity about Islam or Alvivi who recommends bak kut teh as buka puasa dish ? Or you think religious bigotry is exclusive to Muslims?

            1. Dear Calvin,

              Thank you for your detailed elaboration. I appreciate it.

              However, I have to respectfully disagree with your views.

              (My views are best surmised in comment no. 52)

              I do note that this is a complex issue, and many people will have different views, and all are entitled to give their views.

              As you noted, it has now gone global. A senior editor of the Jakarta Post is extremely worried, if the precedent set here will spread to Indonesia.

              Let’s hope that all continue discussing these issues of importance in a calm and measured manner to find an amicable solution to everyone.

              I do agree with you that Namewee and Patrick Teoh should have been charged in court, in the same way the government went after Alvivi.

              This will give them a chance to defend themselves, and if found to be guilty, it would have been done through due process, and the rule of law.

              At the same time, this approach should be extended to all Malaysians. Whom-so-ever that insults another persons race or religion, should be charged immediately.

              This is what Malaysia needs — the proper administration of the rule of law.

              I fully support you on this.

              ps: Look forward to working on your dataset. Very fascinating. Maybe Helen can restart a discussion on the Chinese Tsunami. I would be very pleased to discuss this with the forum members.

              Best
              Greg

      3. Macam mana pula dengan hak orang islam yang juga termaktud dalam Perlembagaan?

        Apa sudah pupuskan kristian di Malaysia ini?

      4. Dimana hak orang kristian selama ini dinafikan, wahai thambi yang putih suci murni lagi budiman?

        Mereka bebas menganut dan mengamalkan akan kepercayaan mereka. Malah untuk membina gereja pun, di benarkan.

        Lihat sahajalah gereja terbesar di asia tenggara yang terletak di bukit jalil, tidak dengar orang orang islam bantah pun.

  5. Isu Kalimah “Allah” ini adalah ujian Allah SWT kat umat mesia ni. Pertama orang kristus terutama keterunan Cina gatal bontot sebab negara terlalu aman, tak pernah berlaku konflik agama serperti di negara lain, kristus ini gian nak berperang kot.

    Kedua ujian terhadap umat Islam kerana pecah belah, menyokong yg batil (semuanya batil tapi yg paling sial sekali adalah PAS & Melayu PKR) & majoriti tidak beriman dan beramal seperti yg di kehendaki oleh Allah & Rasul Nya. Tapi tak apa kita tengok & tunggu aje akhibat “Gatal Bontot” kristus ini.

  6. Suppose many of these descendants of Pendatangs are real confused lots. Really really otak melelong.

    They change their citizenships, change their motherlands, change their religions, change their names, change their traditions and customs and now decided to also change the name of their God.

    …..Ops! except their mother tongue (now what mother tongue nonsense are they trying to impress us – I am sure 98% of Malaysian Chinese cannot even communicate in Mandarin when they first landed on this land – really confused lots la you people)

    Bila mau setel down owh?

    1. Rina,

      I’m also waiting for them to migrate elsewhere beramai-ramai. Kata mereka kena tindas oleh pemimpin Melayu, tapi yang hairannya masih lagi duduk kekal di Malaysia. Apasal? Negara lain tak nak terima ke?

      1. saya tak kisah jika orang bukan islam nak migrate sebab tak dapat guna kalimah ALLAH atau apa sebab sekali pun.

        penhijrahan satu perkara biasa dari dahulu hingga sekarang.

          1. Brunei took a lesson from Malaysia experience hence resulting in stateless Chinese in Brunei now.

            Re. Ko ingat negara Mat salleh akan terima mereka ke ?

            Only if they have enough money and brain. Otherwise merangkak semula balik sini cari makan. Bila dah kaya baru apply balik jadi PR kat UK, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

            You will see more and more prominent Malay business people going forward, they are being groom by the GOMEN with the understanding that they have to reinvest back into the country e.g. Tan Sri Syed Mohktar, The Naza Group, Mydin etc. and they are going to be more successful GLC e.g. Tabung Haji, Johor Corp, Felda, etc. These companies have communal sense and responsibility not individualistic unlike the Chinese own companies e.g. Rober Kuok, Khoo Kay Peng. YTL, Ananda Krishnan, etc. will be the last of its kind going forward.

            1. Really? See how ecoworld going to become next listed property tycoon company in such a short time? The fact is even these Malay GLC are depending on the Malaysian Chinese for their business.

              1. Yupe you are right. Do you how the GOMEN make use of it. The Cina Property Developers have to build RUMAH MAMPU MILIK, otherwise their projects are not going to be approved by the GOMEN. The way rumah mampu milik works is that the developer will build it and the higher end buyers e.g. mostly the Malaysian and Singaporean Chinese will subsidize the cost for the lower and middle end buyers e.g. mostly the Malays. That is how it works, you guys become the sucker who pay high end property cost plus paying for the Malay and the poor of all races as well. This is one such example:

                http://www.bharian.com.my/articles/Johorbekuprojekperumahanjikapemajugagalsiaprumahmampumilik/Article/

                Have heard about TH Property and Bandar Enstek, Uda Land North, Naza TTDI, these are just some of the new companies. They are well diversified at group level. Their buyers are mostly Muslim Malays. Just google Tabung Haji Berhad you can see they have diversified businesses domestically and internationally and never once they reported losses. They are even part of the Perdana University a combination of John Hopkins University, Scotland Royal Surgeon College and UiTM. They even own chain of international hotels, their own hospitals in Saudi Arabia, They pay 8% dividend to Muslim Tabung Haji Depositors this year. They are not greedy like the Chinese business tycoon where all goes to their pocket.

                Take Robert Kuok for example, he was rumored to have bought RM1 billion worth of yacht and the Chinese are so proud of it. The same goes to Khoo Kay Peng who has house worth RM500 million in the UK.

                Now look at Tan Sri Syed Mokthar Al-Bukhari, half of his business incomes are reinvested back into the Muslim community in Malaysia. For instance scholarship for both local and overseas Muslims. He already has Al Bukhary International University. On yearly basis he sponsored about 250 poor Malaysian to perform hajj. On Hariraya Haji he sponsored cows for Kurban, at the mosque that I frequent yesterday, he donated 14 cows and another 2 cows by individuals. This is just in KL, he does that all over Malaysia and abroad.

                Now look at Tan Sri Azman Hashim. He already pledged RM1 billion of his money to the community. For instance, in University Islam Antarabangsa, he donated RM7 million to build Azman Hashim complex which houses bank, shops, cafe and conference room. Rental incomes from this complex are used to sponsor poor Muslim students both local and international. Lembaga Tabung Angkatan Tentera also donated few million to build hostel for students and the incomes are used 100% for scholarship.

                They don’t go around town to announce their good deeds for in Islam it is considered RIAK and a Sin. I got to know all these through my readings and meetings with their people.

                Muslim Malays are very communal society where they share their wealth with others within the circle. These are just few examples.

                1. Tan Sri Syed Mokhtar Al Bukary is a very shrewd businessman. He runs Port of Tanjung Pelepas, not long after the opening of the new port, Maersk moved its business from Singapore Port and it reduces Singpore Port business volume by 30% at an instance.

                  That is why he was given the right of Penang Port which the Cina DAP made a big huuhaa over it.

                  The same case where Felda bought RM100 million building from Naza Property for its HQ near KLCC. The Cina DAP was also making noise as if it will not benefit the Felda Settlers. The return for the building at current rate is about 2% and the return will increase over time adjusted to market rate. Naza got the money and reinvest it in another project so and so forth. Felda also has bought an apartment building in London at high end area. The same process works, where the return will be reinvested for the benefits of the Felda settlers.

    2. The Iban, Kadazan Dusun Murut, Bajau, Orang Asli, Melanau, Bidayuh are not pendatang.

      But you Rina, if you are from West Malaysia, are a pendatang in Sabah and Sarawak. Keep that in mind and do not be so arrogant.

      1. Kut celah mana I am arrogant? I stated the true facts, takleh terima ke?

        About Mandarin? Try speaking in Mandarin with some Apeks/Ahso – majority still don’t understand this so called “mother tongue” taught in SJKC. Even those attending SKebangsaan don’t know how to read, write or converse in Mandarin.

        Nak kerja Sabah W Msian kena ada work permit owh! Wife and kids still need pass tanggungan so don’t need to remind, kami sentiasa tahu asal usul kami dari mana ya and behave accordingly while in Sarawak or Sabah. Masuk kandang kambing kami turut sama mengembek tak oink oink ya.

        1. “Kut celah mana I am arrogant? I stated the true facts, takleh terima ke?”

          A classic symptom of what they call ‘bodoh sombong’ is displayed above. Arrogant that they do not realise it.

          The Christians who use ‘Allah’ are the Bumiputera Christians. Understand that.

          “Masuk kandang kambing kami turut sama mengembek tak oink oink ya.”

          Dan selepas keluar kandang, Rina boleh kembali membebel ‘oink oink’. :)

        1. Re. Mr Short Circuit !

          AK, you crack me up. When I was young, we used to call that as “Otak Tak Ada Current” in Malay.

          1. LOL. You are great. I will always support you. Mr Short Circuit is actually ‘AK47 dies before AC-DC’ that is if he did short-circuit himself dead alady ! Acheh ! (learnt it in India when I was 7 years old !)

        2. AK47

          And RIna’s rant on ‘pendatang’s descendant’ is polite and just?

          Guess I expected more from you, but, I should have known better than to hold high esteem for bitter old men who chose to utilize their remainning days bitching about their Singapore relative like a broken record.

          1. HH,
            Indeed I am very polite and just and not bullshiting. 8 in our family (my siblings and their kids) were/are from SJKCs. Schools in Kedah, SgBesi, Rawang, Sandakan, PJ so imagine the nbr of different Chinese dialects they are fluent in. Termasuk Bahasa Cina lama which not many Chinese themselves don’t understand.

            You pi gebang2 kat Beijing pun guna Mandarin Malaysia/ Singapore kena adjust2 owh. So claiming Mandarin as your Bahasa Ibunda is nonsense.

            Am I rude for bringing this ‘mother tongue thingy’ out for all to take note? Just you confirm here, benar atau tidak?

              1. Rina

                I apologize for the late reply. I was out of town.

                Quote: “Am I rude for bringing this ‘mother tongue thingy’ out for all to take note?”

                You are not rude, more like condescending and arrogant in your observation.

                In your original comment (Oktober 16, 2013 at 12:35 am) :

                Quote:” except their mother tongue (now what mother tongue nonsense are they trying to impress us – I am sure 98% of Malaysian Chinese cannot even communicate in Mandarin when they first landed on this land – really confused lots la you people)”

                The gist of your original comment was to insinuate the Chinese as a fickle minded race. The Chinese changed mother land, religion, custom and names. (your words)

                It is not very nice and very wrong to paint an entire race with generalization and assumptions through your personal interaction with the Chinese. I don’t deny your assessment, for you have the right to form your own opinion, as long as you acknowledge it is just that, your own opinion. The truth lies in whatever framework of reality you subscribe to, or make up for yourself. It is not absolute.

                Just go through history and you will find people of all races reluctantly thrown into the turmoil of migration because of factors beyond their control. There is no point bringing this up as your ‘fickle minded’ point because migration in the early days did not denote a deliberate choice for many Chinese. The move out of their homeland leaned more towards the Chinese being the victims of circumstances. Why hold that against them?

                As for the Chinese being fickle minded in religion, the argument goes both ways. Let’s say Chinese or non-Malays in Malaysia are blessed with the liberty of choice when it comes to religion but not the Malays. Non-Malays do not hold the Malays’ lack of religious freedom against them so, neither should you hold the religious liberty of the non-Malays against the Chinese. This liberty by the way should never be construed as fickle mindedness.

                You are right many Chinese do not know Mandarin. These are obviously the Sekolah Kebangsaan crowd. Unless Mandarin is spoken at home, it is little wonder they cannot speak Mandarin fluently. If you are of the opinion Chinese should know Mandarin, then you should advocate more Chinese vernacular schools. At the moment it is still lacking.

                Cheers

                1. ‘It is not very nice and very wrong to paint an entire race with generalization and assumptions…’

                  Acheh, as if you have never done this, huh?

                  Potong Hidung Pakistanis, remember?

                  HH, kata dulang paku serpih, *sigh*

                  1. When did I paint an entire race with generalization?

                    The association between Islamic extremism practices with the nose cutting Pakistanis? I am sure you recall I was asked to elaborate what I meant by countries with extreme and moderate Islam practices. I did not try to misrepresent my generalization as the gospel truth considering the fact I put a caveat explaining this is how in layman term I count Pakistan as a country practicing extreme Islam. At no time was I trying to pass off my observation as anything more than what it is.

                    You on the other hand are blatantly disingenuous in continuing to quote things out of context just for the sake of a retort.

                    While at it, have you answered my question – Are Muslims defined by their culture/race or their practices?

                    1. ‘Are Muslims defined by their culture/race or their practices?’

                      What do you think? After all, what’s in your head is what matter most, wouldn’t it?

                      Muslims are humans too, just like everyone else. So if you can’t understand that, I don’t think you can ever understand, seriously, anything!

            1. And you are a classic example of douche bag with chronic syndrome of constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth.
              : D

  7. I agree, the BBC article is so biased and misleading, it’s probably just wrong. On the other hand, that’s probably what the whole Malaysian Christians involved in this issue really believed, eh?

    It’s so funny.

    The Malays blame UMNO for not doing its utmost for the issue, everyone else blames UMNO for taking advantage of the issue.

    Everyone’s crazy.

    I thought the Malaysian judiciary is supposed to be independent?

    I would probably feel sorry for UMNO, but after the recent UMNO results, ehhh…you got it coming.

    So why no mention of DAP, BBC? Would you refer to DAP as Chinese Christian party like you referred UMNO as Malay Muslim?

    I think that’s what DAP’s trying to pass themselves as now to win Sarawak.

  8. is the good Pope Francis going to use the word ‘Allah’ in his Christmas Sermon this year? You know from that balcony in the Vatican? I dont think the Pope will dare utter the word ‘Allah’ in the Vatican. They will get rid of him if he does that.

    1. Or the British Churches using the Allah word in their sermons in the UK? There is no issue. Only issues brought up by certain Malaysians who are very free.

      1. My American work colleagues when asked about them using Allah as God said “Allah is the Muslim God and not the Christian God!”

        Christians in Malaysia are mengada-ngada especially in West Malaysia. We the Muslims often say “Oh, Ya Allah Ya Tuhanku…” Do you think they, who speak English and pray in English would utter the same? Poorah!

        1. Remember this Aku Melayu?

          Like A Prayer – Madonna [YouTube]

          1. Pepsi Cancels Madonna Ad
          Published: April 05, 1989

          “Pepsico Inc. said yesterday that it had canceled plans to broadcast a television commercial in which the rock star Madonna advertises Pepsi-Cola, after finding that consumers confused the commercial with a music video by the singer that included religious imagery.”

          2. Vatican’s fury over Madonna ‘blasphemy’

          “Catholic leaders condemned as blasphemous her controversial 1989 video for hit song “Like a Prayer”, featuring burning crosses, statues crying blood and Madonna seducing a black Jesus.”

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-398931/Vaticans-fury-Madonna-blasphemy.html

          Actually during that period, it had also sparked a controversy over whether Jesus is back or white which inadvertently had furred the conservative white Christian.

  9. Tulisan dari Ms Jennifer Pak bukan pandangan orang islam Malaysia (penduduk majoriti Malaysia) ia lebih kepada pemikiran dan tanggapan diri dia sendiri.

    Pandangan sebegini kerap kali di tulis oleh mereka yang bukan Melayu dan Islam kerana mereka tidak suka kepada Melayu dan Islam di Malaysia.

    1. This is the problem of Malaysian Islam, the non Muslim cannot give opinion. Even the Muslim with different stance cannot give opinion. The court gave the verdict that this word cannot be used by non Muslim but UMNO said can used in East Malaysia. It seems that UMNO stance is based on their political gain.

      1. The problem is, there are people who love to get involve in issues that are not related to them. People like you.

        You should ask yourself this question. Why is it that Muslims have not problems with Buddhists, Taoists and those who worship other gods but with Evangelical Christians ?

        You know the answer don’t you ?

  10. I am so sad that our beloved idols OKM and Hannah Montana are so quite this Hari Raya Haji. No more cheerful Insya Allah or fashionista baju Melayu. So sad. Did they have a really bad day?

    Hannah Yeoh ‏@hannahyeoh 14 Oct Just finished meeting. Going home to my babies. Selamat Hari Raya Aidil Adha to all my Muslim friends!

    Ng Tien Chee ‏@eddiengtienchee 14h Bersama @imokman di Majlis Jamuan Rakyat Sempena Hari Raya Qurban Aidiladha anjuran JMB Tmn Sri Indah.

  11. If this a political agenda by UMNO to increase its Islamic image, then why did DAP and LGE bring this issue up last December during his Christmas speech?

    If its true its just a political ploy by UMNO to gain more Muslim support then its also a ploy by DAP to gain a stronger grip on the Christian community

  12. More Christian evangelical literature supoorting Allah is not for Christians.

    http://tnvalleytalks.hoop.la/topic/allah-is-not-god-ruling-by-muslim-judges
    “Finally, Muslim judges in a court of law have ruled that Christians may NOT use the name Allah to mean God! No big surprise. We Christians have long said that the Muslim Allah is not the same as our Christian God of the Bible. Now, their judges agree with us.”

    http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible-answer-man/read/articles/is-the-allah-of-islam-the-god-of-the-bible-10578.html
    “Long before Muhammad was born, Arabic Christians were already referring to God as Allah — and millions continue to do so today. The Allah of Islam, however, is definitely not the God of the Bible; for while Muslims passionately defend the unity of God, they patently deny His triunity”

    http://radicaltruth.net/index.php/learn/radical-truth-christianity/95-who-is-allah-is-he-the-god-of-the-bible
    “The god of Islam, Allah, is not the same person as the God of the Bible, YHWH.

    •YHWH is a trinity, Allah is absolutely one.
    •YHWH can be known and seeks to be known. Allah is unknowable.
    •YHWH is a relational God and seek relationship with us. Allah does not.
    •YHWH is perfectly good and is never responsible for evil. Allah causes evil along with good.
    •The love of YHWH is unconditional; we cannot earn it. Allah’s love requires a Muslim to earn it.
    •YHWH is perfectly just. Allah is unjust because he punishes people for the sins he causes them to commit.
    •The relationships we experience in our families reflects the relationship with have with God, and the relationship the triune God has with himself. The relationship Muslim families also experience does not reflect the relationship with Allah.”

    1. By the way I do not support what Radical Truth said about Islam. All religions are about LOVE. Only man that spreads HATE.

      1. It is very clear that the US Evangelists believe that they they more superior to the Muslims and they don’t want to mix. The Bible belt clearly want Allah and God to be separate.

        Why in Malaysia, the Evangelista of Malaysia who are just new converts so excited about their rights to Allah? Practising Bible Belters in the US who have been Christians for generations (like Pastor Moller of the Southern Baptist), the very impolite Radical Truth, one place etc are clear that Allah is NOT for Christians.

  13. ngomong-ngomong orang melayu/islam ini terlalu baik… sebab tu depa pijak kepala… ingat pesan Laksamana Hang Tuah.. ‘buat baik berpada-pada… buat jahat jangan sekali”… errr.. boleh lagi ke pegang pesan Datuk LaksamanaTuah ni??

  14. Interestingly I was talking to some of my (Hindu) friends over the long holidays about the judgment. It seems that the evangelists Christians used similar tactics to Tamil Hindus in India and in Malaysia. One of the most worshipped deities for the Hindus from South (Tamils and others like Malayali and Telegus) is Goddess Mariammal. They evangelists apparently changed the name to Mary Ammal and sold the fiction that Virgin Mary and Mariammal are one and the same and converted them.

    Knowing their less than stellar track record, I think it is wise for the Muslims in Malaysia to put their collective feet down on such devious semantic driven tactics. Of course such tactics might not work on the educated but they usually target the vulnerable and less educated demographic.

      1. re: “This evangelist are really superb in their tactics”

        The Sneaky Star and their Scissorati

          1. Universiti Kristian dan media Kristian sudah lama ada di Indonesia.

            Nampaknya ada orang yang baru pergi keluar dari tempurungnya…

            1. AD-DC = Mr. Short Circuit

              Please read the article in full as per the given link. Don’t simply comment.

              Re. Nampaknya ada orang yang baru pergi keluar dari tempurungnya…

              The “BANGLAS” have better command of Bahasa Melayu than you do apparently.

  15. Kristian missionary memang mempunyai agenda terhadap penggunaan perkataan Allah. Cuma Haji Hadi dan pemimpin PAS yang seangkatan denganya serta BAPAK ANWAR IBRAHIM DAN lain-lain sekutunya buat-buat tak ngerti kerana POLITIK . Mudahan ALLAH menurunkan peringatan kepada mereka semua.

    Buat teman -teman kristian- anda sendiri mengaku anda tak sembah ALLAH tetapi menyembah Jesus Christ dan lebih selesa menyebutnya GOD atau Jesus so ….. kenapa nak teruskan isu ini , anda tak jujur dalam kepercyaan anda ke….. Pastor William Pakiam saya tahu anda tahu apa yang ada di hati anda….. cuma nak bagi tahu Pastor kami orang islam takkan menggadaikan kalimah suci ini biarpun apa terjadi……. jika anda tahu …..

  16. .

    .

    .

    saudara pembaca yang saya hormati.

    Ada kebenaran apa yang dihuraikan

    olih Tuan Noh gadut itu.

    Kenyataan yang di keluarkan dek
    Asri
    diberikan bogel tanpa penjelasan

    dan huraian latar belakang sejarah

    asal usul agama di dalam dunia Arab.

    Arab sebelum adanya Muhammad SAW

    memeluki

    agama yang dipimpin olih Nabi Musa
    dan
    di ikuti pula olih Nabi Isa [alaihi salam ]
    Pengikut nabi Musa [geng yahudi] dan
    pengikut nabi Isa [dikenali sekarang sebagai
    Agama Nabi Isa [Kristus] atau Kristian.

    Saya fokus bicara kepada agama yang

    dipimpin

    Nabi Isa yang jelas ajarkan Allah

    adalah tuhan yang satu dan beliau

    adalah nabinya.

    Jadi bila se orang Arab kristian

    sebut Allah-

    ianya jelas yang Allah yang dia

    rujuk itu adalah

    Allah yang satu. Selepas Nabi Isa

    ‘dibunuh’

    olih musuhnya , seorang penduduk

    kampongnya ,Paul,

    telah mereka [membuat cerita]

    bahawa nabi Isa

    telang pulang sebagai hantu

    [pontianak] atau holy

    ghost dan mengadakan entiti Tuhan

    Bapa, Tuhan Anak,

    dan Holy Ghost [pontianak] didalam

    konsep ketuhanan

    baru untuk pengikut pengikut

    kristian yang

    diterajui olih Gereja Katolik di

    Vatican [satu

    perkampongan -negeri di Roma,
    Itali.

    Ada lebih 100 juta kristian

    Unitarian dan seangkatan

    di dalam pemikiran bahawa Allah

    adalah satu dan Isa

    adalah nabinya di US dan merata

    dunia. Google unitarian

    church dan lihatlah sendiri.Dan

    mereka adalah berhak

    untuk memanggil Allah sebagai tuhan mereka!

    Walau apapun yang berlaku di dunia

    Arab, atau di

    Indonesia kita melayu Malaysia

    mesti ada pegangan.

    Bahasa rasmi negara adalah Bahasa

    Malaysia- bukan base

    Arab. Dan gereja katolik bila ianya merujuk
    kepada tuhan ianya mengikut baris

    pertama di dalam

    bible- adala Bapa Tuhan, Anak Tuhan

    dan Pontianak [holy

    ghost] . Pontianak di

    salahterjemahkan sebagai roh

    kudus. Tuan tuan sedia maklum roh

    adalah ciri ciri

    manusia bukan tuhan. Olih kerana

    takut digelakkad dek

    Atheis dan agamawan lain holy ghost

    sudah ditukarkan

    ke holy spirit baru baru ini! Roh

    ditiupkan kepada

    setiap nyawa yang dilahirkan dan

    ianya diambil olih

    malaikat apabila nyawa kita

    dicabut.

    Apakah ciri ciri [attributes ] Allah-

    Tiada mula atau akhir [Allah is

    omniprescient-infinite]

    Roh adalah finite[ada had ada

    hari-hadari!]

    Bila muslim bolih jatuh murtad?

    Bila kita samakan Allah yang satu

    kepada tuhan

    3 dalam 1 -tuhan yang dianuti dek

    pegangan katolik-nauzubillah
    .

    .

    .
    Akhirkata
    ———

    Loyar loyar melayu senyap bila

    Majlis peguam hentam

    gomen yang diterajui olih mat

    melayu kau kau semasa

    ‘bersih’ dulu. Tapi Majlis yang di terajui dan dipenuhi

    olih kolings dan chingkies tak ambil tindakan untuk buang

    Pundek Lingam dari senarai Loyar , keikhlasan n integriti

    loyar propeser ngangkang Bari dan geng geng khususnya

    Ambiga-‘bersin’ di dalam majlis

    sangat sangat diragui.

    Ada kemungkinan

    propeser melayu tidak kompeten in

    BI -kerana termasuklah

    di dalam geng geng ‘

    mat-me-no-spik/read-inglis ‘ yang

    sukar memahami bible setebal 400

    muka surat itu.

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