Posted in Kristian

Kalimah Allah: Gereja Katolik tipu?

Akhbar terbitan gereja Katolik yang berjudul The Herald itu bermati-matian hendak juga kalimah Allah.

Kononnya naskah The Herald yang diterbitkan dalam gabungan pelbagai bahasa – Inggeris, Cina dan Tamil – mesti menggunakan ‘Allah’ dalam segmen bahasa Melayunya untuk diedarkan kepada pribumi Sabah dan Sarawak yang beragama Kristian.

Akan tetapi cuba perhatikan bahawa kepimpinan tertinggi gereja Katolik adalah rata-rata terdiri orang Cina dan India. Malahan hanya seorang sahaja yang pribumi.

Keturunan Cina: Uskup Paul Tan, uskup emeritus James Chan, uskup agung John Lee, uskup agung John Wong, uskup Cornelius Piong, uskup agung John Ha Tiong Hock, uskup Peter Chung Hoan Ting, uskup Joseph Hii Teck Kwong, uskup Dominic Su Haw Chiu, uskup Anthony Lee Kok Hin

Ramainya Cina!

Keturunan India: Uskup agung Murphy Pakiam, uskup agung emeritus Anthony Soter Fernandez, Uskup Sebastian Francis, uskup emeritus Antony Selvanayagam

Keturunan pribumi: Uskup Julius Dusin Gitom

Seorang sahaja uskup pribumi, ish, ish, ish.

Paderi-paderi Katolik di Sarawak pun kebanyakannya Cina (lihat senarai nama di kaki halaman).

Maka boleh disimpulkan bahawa yang menjadi wakil Katolik dalam pertelingkahan merebut ‘Allah’ ini adalah pemimpin gereja etnik Cina beserta rakan-rakan pastor evangelis mereka. Mana ada suara pribumi?

Butir-butir kariah

‘Diocese’ ialah sebuah kawasan di bawah pentadbiran uskup, manakala ‘archdiocese’ di bawah pentadbiran uskup agung (archbishop).

Bagi orang Kristian, ‘parish’ adalah membawa erti kariah.

(A) Diocese Katolik Pulau Pinang mempunyai sejumlah 89 kariah, termasuk di negeri-negeri Perlis, Kedah, Kelantan dan Perak

Diketuai: Uskup Sebastian Francis, uskup emeritus Antony Selvanayagam

  • Pulau Pinang (bahagian pulau) — 11 kariah
  • Pulau Pinang (bahagian tanah besar) — 14 kariah
  • Kedah — 13 kariah
  • Kelantan — 4 kariah
  • Perlis —  3 kariah
  • Perak — 44 kariah

Jumlah: 65,050 umat Katolik

(B) Archdiocese Katolik Kuala Lumpur mempunyai sejumlah 98 kariah, termasuk di negeri-negeri Wilayah Persekutuan, Selangor, Negeri Sembilan, Pahang dan Terengganu

Diketuai: Uskup agung Murphy Pakiam, uskup agung emeritus Anthony Soter Fernandez

  • Kuala Lumpur — 21 kariah
  • Klang — 10 kariah
  • Petaling — 7 kariah
  • Selangor — 17 kariah
  • Negeri Sembilan — 22 kariah
  • Pahang & Terengganu — 21 kariah

Jumlah: 170,796 umat Katolik

(C) Diocese Katolik Melaka-Johor mempunyai sejumlah 61 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup Paul Tan, uskup emeritus James Chan

  • Melaka — 22 kariah
  • Johor — 39 kariah

Jumlah: 38,476 umat Katolik

(D) Archiocese Katolik Kota Kinabalu mempunyai sejumlah 17 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup agung John Lee, uskup agung John Wong

Jumlah: 194,180 umat Katolik

(E) Diocese Katolik Sandakan mempunyai sejumlah 6 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup Julius Dusin Gitom

Jumlah: 64,000 umat Katolik

(F) Diocese Katolik Keningau mempunyai sejumlah 10 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup Cornelius Piong

Jumlah: 119,940 umat Katolik

(G) Archiocese Katolik Kuching mempunyai sejumlah 19 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup agung John Ha Tiong Hock, uskup Peter Chung Hoan Ting

Jumlah: 185,027 umat Katolik

(H) Diocese Katolik Sibu mempunyai sejumlah 19 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup Joseph Hii Teck Kwong dan uskup Dominic Su Haw Chiu

Jumlah: 110,853 umat Katolik

(I) Diocese Katolik Miri mempunyai sejumlah 17 kariah

Diketuai: Uskup Anthony Lee Kok Hin

Jumlah: Tiada maklumat

Paderi-paderi Katolik di Sarawak

SIBU: John Anandan Chinnapan, Paul Chee, Paul Cheong Yow Far, Thomas Connors, Henry Deslat Delfin, Sannakki Devadas, Jessie Bueno Gecain, David Ho, Philip Hu, Fabian Kong, David Lau, Richard Lau, Simon Lau, Michael Lee, Paul Ling, Peter Ng, Mathews Olili, Joseph Sebastian, Francis Su, Thomas, Taam, Andrew Tan, Alphonsus Tang, James Ting, Markus Use, Ferdinand Vergeer
.

MIRI: Dominic Charlie, John Chia, Gabriel Chiong, Philip Chua, Kevin Chundi, Justin Dan, Sylvester Ding Ibau, Joseph Ding, Philip Empalah, Basil Entili, Francis Kuleh Usat (vicar General), Peter Hwang , Damian Lalo, Andy Lee, Peter Mering, Robert Radin, Vincent Shim, Michael Sia

Author:

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176 thoughts on “Kalimah Allah: Gereja Katolik tipu?

  1. Wow bringing racism into religion as well! This is exactly the motive behind all this fiasco by UMNO. It is about Malay vs non Malay all this while, nothing about religion. Malay must be seen superior that why they defend this universal word Allah.

    1. If you continue to play and manipulate the issue into that direction, well as a Malay Muslim, I say sure, whatever. It’s malay vs Chinese however, not malay vs non malay. Let’s duke it out in the open. No need to beat around the bushes anymore.

        1. Helen did not describe it as such. It’s people like you who like to propagate such rhetoric because it’s the only simple game your kind of brain is capable of doing. I think I’m done talking to the likes of you.

          1. The Indian Catholics and the Indian Hindus have long been into this “fusion thing” and their leaders almost can’t help themselves from dragging “ALLAH The Absolute One, Most Sublime & Unique” into their melting pot.

            [YouTube]

            It’s all to do about humanly innovated cultural practices. The clerics should not embroil the “People of the Quran” in their new- age catholicism. It’s clearly ancient mix-n-match cultural syncretism . . . even if it feels good.

            1. Pray pardon me, please read “ancient mix-n-match religious syncretism” . . . in defiance of the Messengers of Allah, The All-Knowing, Most Wise.

    2. aku bukan penyokong umno. Aku tak peduli apa-apa tentang umno. Tapi aku tak kan setuju apabila perkataan ‘God’ dalam English bible diterjemahkan sebagai ‘Allah’ dalam Malay bible.

    3. malaysian,

      jangan cuba alih isu la. skrg ko try balas balik hujah dalam artikel tu. bukan nak spin ke racism la, umno la.. nampak sangat mereka memang penipu. menggunakan status agama untuk menipu itu baik kah? memalukan!!!

    4. Then the bolldy DAPSster should not raise that Petronas 99% Malays, the govt 99% Malays, scholarships 99% malays, contract 99% malays..in the end the Malays are Malaysians kan…just like we dun question that Cina billionaire companies all cina controlled..in the end malaysians jugakkan..we dun really mind

      Its the screwed DAP brains that give racial dimension to everything…melayu sorang dua billionaire..already raise question.

      Of course the UMNO would recpricate in the gentlemen manner and then Touche and the Fuck you DAP!!!

    5. Don’t be ignorant. It’s the racist Malaysian, Chinese Catholic leaders who love to create all this nonsense. If they want to meet Allah so much, I can arrange for it.

      1. Re. If they want to meet Allah so much, I can arrange for it.

        Yupe. You can see now the mode is more and more towards that from the Malay and they are playing with fire.

          1. Greg Lopez,
            Stop surveying us as if it was us came to their continent with those Gold Gospel Glory and whatnot. We accepted Islam peacefully in this peninsula until the Portuguese terrorists came with their gunpowders.

              1. ‘a respectable international survey research firm’

                That is a very loaded statement, GL.

                I’m sure you must heard of Arthur Andersen; a respectable international accounting firm also, but not until the world get to be introduced to their crafty side with their all time Magnum Opus-ENRON.

                Click to access Enron%20and%20Aurhur%20Andersen.pdf

                So GL, I hope you would understand where I was coming from.

                Oh BTW Bernie Maddoff was a generous philanthropist with ‘his multimillion-dollar private foundation that doled out money to hospitals and theaters. Indeed, through his charity work at places like the Gift of Life Bone Marrow Foundation…’

                GL, I studied marketing and was made attached to Synovate Ltd (now known as IPSOS) for 4 years, and trust me, when the closing is nearing. Certain lee way were made introduced so that the client can get their tabulations by the agreed dateline. And of course, we never cheat though.

                1. Wow — shocking islam1st

                  You reckon no survey firm can be trusted, foreign & local?

                  and also surveys in general, of any kind (political, social & economic) should not be trusted?

                    1. We regularly use surveys islam1st.

                      Transparency International, Freedom House, World Bank Governance Index, Polity, World Values Survey, Asian Barometer, Global Competitiveness Index, etc.

                      All of these are survey based or have a component with survey.

                      Academics also regularly use survey for their own research.

                      Faking a survey — never.

                      You could be right that the private sector survey can be questionable because of the profit motive and lack of rigour (not peer reviewed, etc.), but never heard about fraud for recognised non-profit groups who stake their reputation on reliable products and services.

                      While there could be mistakes (captured in the margin of error), and also the suitability of using the index (e.g. Governance Indicators do not really capture on the ground situation fully), its the first time I’ve heard someone actually question the credibility of non-profit and internationally respected opinion poll.

                      Well, can’t say that we learn something new everyday.

                    2. I would not go as far as to say that we cheat, but perhaps its a matter of ‘methodologies’.

                      As far as NGOs are concern, much has been said about think tanks too. I’m surprised that you are surprised.

                      Humans are gullible, non profit or otherwise, no?

                    3. GL, here’s an article I bumped on my Flipboard this morning.

                      A neurologist, Kai Markus Muller, an ex Simon, Kucher and Partners (reputable, eh?), soon lost interest in his job of helping companies to find suitable prices for their products, ‘when he recognized that classic market research doesn’t work correctly.’

                      http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/scientist-uses-brainwaves-to-test-ideal-prices-for-products-a-926807.html

                      Something academics like you needs to ponder, I must say, yes?

          2. Re, Just wondering, would you use violence to defend your religion?

            Apparently you haven’t read most of my comment about JIHAD,

            1. Hi LOL,

              Yes, haven’t read your comments on jihad. Sorry. Too many discussion threads to follow.

              Could you point me to some of your views.

              Thanks
              Greg

      2. Hahaha.. bagus punya arrangement … Suruh masuk Islam tak mau.. Kalau dah Islam, nak zikir sejuta kali sehari nama Allah pun takde hal, malah dpt pahala.

    6. Wahai Ahli Kitab! Janganlah kamu melampaui batas dalam agama mu, dan janganlah kamu mengatakan terhadap ALLAH kecuali yang benar. Sungguh, Al Masih ‘Isa putra Maryam itu adalah utusan ALLAH dan (yang diciptakan dengan) kalimah Nya yang disampaikan Nya kepada Maryam, dan (dengan tiupan) roh dari Nya. Maka berimanlah kepada ALLAH dan Rasul Nya dan janganlah kamu mengatakan “(ALLAH itu) Tiga (triniti)”. Berhentilah (dari berkata sedemikian). Itu lebih baik bagimu. Sesungguhnya ALLAH Tuhan Yang Maha Esa, Maha Suci dia dari (tohmahan) mempunyai anak. Milik Nya apa yang ada di langit, dan apa yang ada di bumi. Dan cukuplah ALLAH sebagai Pelindung (An-Nisaa’ 4: 171)

  2. Masa saya sekolah Convent dulu bayangan mereka2 ni pun tak nampak – Gereja tepi pagar aje, Tiap pagi assembly Muslims beratur barisan belakang kerena dimulakan dgn nyanyian “COME HOLY GHOST”.

    Sekarang mereka tukar pulak GHOST tu jadi SPIRIT?

    Mana tak tukar, kalau terjemah GHOST dlm Bahasa Malaysia, mesti kanak2 yg berimaginasi melayang2 akan rasa seram dan menakutkan? Macam2 jenis Hantu dalam pemikiran mereka.

    UBAH jgn tak UBAH.. Tak lama lagi Babi pun ubah bagi nama jadi lembu, senang dapat sijil Halal kan?

    Bila le kamu semua ni nak setel down owh?

      1. Rasanya lepas ni dia tukar nama babi ke kerbau pendek pula.. pelik sangat sangat kan spesis mereka ni.

    1. Terutama kanak2 bila terjemah Ghost dlm BM sudah tentu fikirkan Hantu. Pasti tidur malam takleh nyenyak!! Antara jenis-jenis kelompok hantu-hantu ini ialah : (wiki)
      Pontianak/ Puntianak/ Kuntilanak
      Polong
      Toyol
      Pelesit
      Hantu Air/ Hantu Laut
      Hantu Raya
      Hantu Bungkus/ Pocong/ Hantu Punjut
      Langsuir
      Bota
      Bajang
      Bunian
      Hantu Jepun
      Hantu Bukit
      Hantu Kubur
      Pari-pari
      Jerangkung
      Hantu Galah
      Jin Tanah
      Hantu Keramat
      Hantu Kum-Kum
      Orang Minyak
      Puaka
      Penanggalan/ Hantu Tenggelong
      Hantu Bidai
      Hantu Tetek/ Hantu Kopek
      Harimau Jadian
      Jembalang Tanah

        1. For ‘ghost’ alone we had so many names, how dare that they say the Melayu had only borrowed words from Sanskrit, Chinese, Tamil, English, Arab, Persian and others spoken among themselves!

          Nor do they know that the most famous English Wicca whom by the way had befriended the satanic G. Bush Jr maternal grandfather, had learned the magic mantras and act in the hutan dara of Pahang, taught among others by the Malay kampung folks and the Orang Aslis, which in turn prompt him to set up a wiccan colony for which JK Rowling had been accused of stealing her ideas from!

    2. Rina,

      Just wondering.

      After going to a Catholic school, and being exposed to so much of Christianity, did you become a Christian?

      What do you think of the quality of education you received, compared to the national schools, on average?

      Interested to hear your views.

      Thanks
      Greg

      1. Greg,
        We loved our teachers (nuns) and our Reverend Mother. Mereka memupuk budaya kasih sayang and RESPECT sesama rakan dgn begitu berkesan sekali.

        Been over 40yrs we still connect, each month bergilir2 meet-up kat rumah ex-classmates. Once a year group family travel, the last was to China. Those who migrated (other countries) wld make an effort to organize a get-together in their homes shld anyone of us travel there. We hv our grp fb to update with the latest goings on in our lives. Biasany tidoq rumah mereka la, tak kasi duk hotel owh!

        Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, Islam, Christians when we are together all these make no different to us, we remain as one family sharing same hopes and aspirations for the better of this Nation.

        National schools
        Irony my late papa was exHM of national schools however all his kids were sent to attend either missionary schools or siblings below me, to SJKCs). I don’t see any difference as his schools (students and teachers) performances etc are equally as active and successful. (Long after his retirement his ex-teachers/students still kept very close contact with him).

        Itu yg menhairankan sya dgn cara these new Christian converts. Gedik2 semacam, overly excited and sadly – suka instigate yg bukan2 untuk memecah belah rakyat Malaysia!

    3. Lembu skg dah sinonim utk gelaran kaum India yg mati2 pertikai ibadah umat islam. Kalau dah suci sgt, gunanya LEMBU di pangkal nama semua Hindu

      1. re: “pertikai ibadah umat islam”

        Bukan ibadah yang dipertikai tetapi kenapa penyembelihan itu diadakan di perkarangan sekolah.

        1. Err, for lacks of a better space? Or to teach some of the student, Islamic values and practices? It was not the first Helen, I can assure you that.

          So why now, the brouhaha? Have gone American lately?

  3. And as for the list Helen, can we tell the Cina and the India, that God in Malay is Tuhan?!

    When they don’t speak BM, for various reasons of course, low class is one of them, this buta BM kakis will be forever berlagak BODOH SOMBONG!!!

    God = Tuhan just as much as Car = Kereta. Or perhaps these kakis thinks Car = Proton?!

    Murphy Pakiam cares to comment?

    1. In Peninsular God = Tuhan. In Sabah / Sarawak God = Allah. Ini bukan saya cakap punya, ini UMNO yang cakap.

      Ada berani UMNO nak paksa semua bumiputa di sana supaya jangan guna perkataan tersebut? Saya rasa tidak. Demi sokongan politik, UMNO sanggup buat apa jua.

      Mengikut huraian Helen, kepimpinan tertinggi Islam semuanya Melayu dan kepimpinan tertinggi Kristian kebanyakkannya Cina / India, maka mengikut logic Helen, isu ini sebenarnya adalah masalah perkauman antara Melayu dan bukan Melayu!

      1. UMNO kini sudah berdolak-dalik dalam isu ini selepas ketua-ketua parti komponen seperti James Masing dan Bernard Dompok membantah.

        Tiba-tiba mereka mengutus penggunaan kalimah ‘Allah’ hanya dilarang bagi akhbar Herald, manakala pengikut Kristian di Sabah dan Sarawak masih dibenarkan menggunakannya.

    2. Arabo-obsessed katolik should consider ‘ubah ‘ their names to
      arab based names.

      murphy pakiam- murad pak yam

      all the chingkie bishops – al ustad mat chingkie ooi
      or mat chingkie ali just as in indonesia chinese assume names
      like Rudi, hartono. In malaysia the priest can use names like
      Mat Nonok , Mat Putatan. All christian surnames ought to be
      dustbinned and new arab names like Yakob, Mustafa, ought to be used.

      One should emulate names like Mustapa Ong, Omar Ong, Mustapa Pak Yam. This is learning from the 1Malaysia transformation guru!

  4. kepada malaysian, jgn comment sesuatu yg anda sgt tidak fahami konteksnya, apa yg helen maksudkan, kenapa perlu pihak gereja nak pakai ALLAH sedangkan majoriti bukan bumiputera sabah/sarawak yg jd leader di sana

  5. Setahu saya Katolik merupakan minoriti Kristian di Sarawak.

    Majoriti adalah Protestan dan ramai pribumi. Dan mereka memang menggunakan Al-Kitab dari Indonesia yang menggunakan perkataan Allah.

    Mungkin persaingan sesama mazhab untuk menarik pengikut Protestan?

      1. Helen, the Catholics brought the case to Court because the Home Minister made a decision to cancel their licence to print the BM version of the Herald (in which they used the word Allah, according to them since 1994 without any problem. This is written up in substantial detail in the media (both main stream and alternative). So the case was not just brought up to Court out of thin air. I don’t think it’s right of you to spin it this way and to make it a race issue.

        Anyway, I don’t think they will win even in the Federal Court. But if we keep on harping on this whole issue we are contributing to racial tension too. The Court has made a decision; the Church can exercise their legal right to appeal; they can’t win (IMHO) so no point giving the matter so much publicity.

        You are really very anti Christian or else you appear so (maybe due to your hatred of Hannah Yeoh). Do you have any comment about what the Buddhist are doing to the Rohingya in Myanmar? or are you just complicit in your silence?

        1. Wallah..so yo u accept the one who brought this to court in the first place are the Catholics. Catholics being catgholics that allowed the Holocaust to perpetuate uner its nose and ignore its poversty stricken subjects in the Phillipines and Latin America.. making Malaysia burn is just bonus points for the pontiff.

          We dont need to hate the Christians, hatred among the Christians led to world wars and the disintegration of the Europen Union.. we just waiting u guys to make WW3 to finish each other off.

          1. There is nothing to ‘accept’ about who brought this to Court, it’s a known fact. I was merely explaining to Helen my understanding of how it happened based on what i had read.

            BTW forrestcat are you Helen? My comment was directed to her? Do you not understand simple English?

      2. Apa yang saya maksud kan adalah, di sebabkan oleh persaingan untuk merebut pengikut itu sangat penting bagi Katolik, dan kerana pengikut Protestan sudah biasa menggunakan Allah, maka ianya adalah penting bagi Katolik untuk menggunakan perkataan Allah.

        Siapa yang rajin membaca pasti lah tahu bahawa Katolik dan Protestan sudah lama bermusuhan, malah pertumpahan darah dari dulu sudah biasa berlaku.

        Di sini, mungkin tidak nampak sebab mereka minoriti dan merugikan kalau bersengketa secara terbuka. Tetapi saya pernah berjumpa Protestan yang mengutuk ajaran Katolik.

      3. I agree with Sham here. The Catholics brought this case to court after the government revoked their license. If the powers that be had been understanding of the religious landscape in East Malaysia, and not been too paranoid to prohibit something the Christians have been using for generations, we would not have this issue today.

        1. AC-DC. The Roman Catholics of Great Britain were crypto-Catholics after King Henry Viii. Have you ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition ? Have you heard how the Moors of Spain were forced to convert after they lost ? The present conundrum is all in history.

          1. AK47

            Quote: ” Have you ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition ? Have you heard how the Moors of Spain were forced to convert after they lost ? The present conundrum is all in history.”

            In the interest of clarity, are you bringing in the Spanish Inquisition into the argument to highlight the fallacy and abuses of state-sanctioned religious extremism?

            1. I suppose Murphy Pakiam and the Catholic Herald together with MCCBCHST are ahli UMNO and working for the gomen kut?!

              Ye kan, guys?

                1. And who says I did?!

                  ‘to highlight the fallacy and abuses of state-sanctioned religious extremism?’

                  Kerajaan UMNO. ROS anjing UMNOs and other State anjings, for which you can be my guest to add to the list…

                  Got it?

                  1. Rude comments from elected representatives hardly qualify as state-sanctioned religious extremism. If there is anything to be said, it merely reflect the poor standard and lack of civility we have come to expect from our politicians in office.

                    Don’t take the word ‘state-sanctioned’ literally, I know you would very much like to apply the term to opposition held states like Penang and Selangor. Fact is, the opposition hardly have enough ammunition in the legislative department to implement and enforce anything substantial enough to qualify the term state-sanctioned.

                    Citing the Spanish Inquisition naturally denotes religion being used for political gain on such a grand scale only the government of the day has the means to pull off.

                    That is why I am seeking clarification from AK47. Stop butting in incessantly and let the old man speak for himself.

                    1. Dear HH, I’m pretty sure, AK47 will answer you when he decides too. Speaking for himself was never my concern.

                      ‘Stop butting in incessantly and let the old man speak for himself.’

                      Cheers no more, eh?

      1. Let’s not go around casting stones at others. Unfortunately, today millions of innocent people are being butchered in the name of Islam too. Got to say that I agree with OutSyed The Box in that ALL religions are evil.

    1. read,
      saya percaya selepas baca outsyedthebox pun mereka akan tetap berdegil dengan hujah mereka. Kita bentanglah hujah sepanjang PLUS Highway pun, mereka akan kata mereka juga yang betul.

      1. Discussing this issue in terms of linguistic aspects is useless, the Catholics will them pull some obscure Bible kitab or porn from Uganda or Zimbabwe or some god forsaken island even translated by the their protestant enemies or even the Satanist Church bible that use Allah or Krishna or whatever to describe their hantu or momok trinity to justify their claims and then interview Christian Arabs who knows nothing of the Malaysian context to comment how stupid we Malays are and then shove the word Allah into the throats of non Arab christians.

        The damage has been done, from an insider I know, even Anwar Ibrahim is reluctant to discuss this issue any further but the Lims and their Avengelist charlatants insist on on harping this issue to create intense animosity betwee Muslim Malays and the irrational horde of the avengelists.

        The courts decision to defeat the devil Herald by the use of the Constitution that prohibit the use Allah as a tool to proletyze Muslims and to maintain peace and harmony (regardless however cosmetic it is, its the best peace we can afford) is the best decision we could support by our sovereign legal system.

        The foreign news correspondents can say what they say and show churches burning, collapsing and being vandalized in their respective airwaves, but we Malaysian will always move on after such publicity, let the DAPsters toast and giggle over the bad publicity on their own homeland.

  6. The root cause of the Kalimah Allah problem is simple.

    Christians don’t even know what their Gods@G-d@God name is.

    They made us a laughing stock to the world and beyond by squatting on Muslim God’s name and stubbornly choose to continue the stupid fight even though Jesus has asked them to turn the other cheek.

    They metaphorically grab the silver coin from Caesar even though Jesus has asked them to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. (Matt 22 : 21) (in this case, the law of the land.)

    They spit on Jesus words and unashamedly claim they are the devout Christians.

    They think the fight will project themselves as martyr in the eyes of the Christians world, but they only making fool of themselves by revealing that their own religion has so many flaws including the most basic thing like the actual concept and attributes of God and His actual name.

    Ask any Hindu their God’s name, a definite and very confident answer they will give u back.

    Ask any Zoroastrian their God’s name, a straight and confident answer they will give u in a split second.

    Ask any Muslim in any part of the world regardless of what their skin color, race and mother tongue, what is the name of their God, and they will unanimously answer ‘He is Allah.’

    Ask any Christian what is their God or G-d or Gods or god name, they will punch u on the face if don’t allow them to ‘squat’ on ur God’s name.

        1. Islam1st be careful I just reminded another Muslim in my FB yesterday.

          Firman Allah dalam surah Al-An’am ayat 108:

          وَلاَ تَسُبُّوْا الَّذِيْنَ يَدْعُوْنَ مِنْ دُوْنِ اللهِ فَيَسُبُّوْا اللهَ عَدْوًا بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ

          “Dan janganlah kamu cerca benda-benda Yang mereka sembah Yang lain dari Allah, kerana mereka kelak, akan mencerca Allah secara melampaui batas Dengan ketiadaan pengetahuan. Demikianlah Kami memperelokkan pada pandangan tiap-tiap umat akan amal perbuatan mereka, kemudian kepada Tuhan merekalah tempat kembali mereka, lalu ia menerangkan kepada mereka apa Yang mereka telah lakukan.”

          Do remind me, if I cross the line too,

          1. OK. Terima Kasih LOL.

            Actually it was an article title I have been working on, ever since the Allah debacle started, years ago, which for some reasons, I have not been able to finish…perhaps the title itself was WRONG and made WRONGED, perhaps by me.

                1. Alhamdullilah Terima Kasih LOL

                  For most (correct me if I’m wrong here) Christians, Moses and Jesus was Jews. If that was the case, then why did both of them addressed Bani Israel rather differently?

                  Christians, care to clarify?

                  a) Why does Moses, addressed the Bani Israel as ‘O my people…’

                  b) Why does Jesus, did not say ‘O my people…’ but instead says. ‘O Bani Israel…’

                  Perhaps the answer is in this video. Insya Allah.

    1. Alamak.. KRISIS Identiti.. jadinya tak hebatlah Kristian ni sebagaimana yg didakwa oleh penganut mereka. Mati2 nak gunakan nama Tuhan bagi org Islam .. Agama Islam yg mereka kata Terroris, Penindas dan ditegakkan melalui pedang.

      1. Memang kekadang kesian juga dengan dia orang yang tak tahu nama sebenar tuhan sendiri..

  7. Be fair to the Catholic church in East Malaysia.

    In Sarawak, the titular head would be the Archbishop of Kuching, John Ha. Similarly for Sabah, it would be the Archbishop of KK.

    When the Court of Appeals decision was announced, the one voice from Sarawak churches was that of Bolly Lapok, the Anglican Archbishop of Kuching.

    As for the numerous Chinese priests in Sarawak, most are proficient in the native languages. I know Frs Simon Poh, John Chong, Nicholas Ng, Patrick Heng, John Chia, Albert Jacobse personally. They speak Iban, Melanau, Bidayuh, Kayan, Kenyah & a myriad of other native languages fluently. I was baptised by Fr James Meehan who is now in a retirement home & he speaks Bidayuh just as a native would, no accent whatsoever.

    I have said it in the past, and I will say it again. The Catholic church of Sarawak wants no part in all this shit that’s driven by the Peninsular Archdiocese & agitated by the evangelicals.

    Btw, Peter Chung & Dominic Su are both retired thus should be Uskup Agung Emeritus & Uskup Emeritus respectively.

  8. Helen, don’t publish this comment if the earlier one got in. Something seems to be wring with WordPress today as there’s no indication of the comment awaiting moderation. Thks.

    —- my earlier comment —-

    Be fair to the Catholic church in East Malaysia.

    In Sarawak, the titular head would be the Archbishop of Kuching, John Ha. Similarly for Sabah, it would be the Archbishop of KK.

    When the Court of Appeals decision was announced, the one voice from Sarawak churches was that of Bolly Lapok, the Anglican Archbishop of Kuching.

    As for the numerous Chinese priests in Sarawak, most are proficient in the native languages. I know Frs Simon Poh, John Chong, Nicholas Ng, Patrick Heng, John Chia, Albert Jacobse personally. They speak Iban, Melanau, Bidayuh, Kayan, Kenyah & a myriad of other native languages fluently. I was baptised by Fr James Meehan who is now in a retirement home & he speaks Bidayuh just as a native would, no accent whatsoever.

    I have said it in the past, and I will say it again. The Catholic church of Sarawak wants no part in all this shit that’s driven by the Peninsular Archdiocese & agitated by the evangelicals.

    Btw, Peter Chung & Dominic Su are both retired thus should be Uskup Agung Emeritus & Uskup Emeritus respectively.

    1. ‘The Catholic church of Sarawak wants no part in all this shit that’s driven by the Peninsular Archdiocese & agitated by the evangelicals.’

      Perhaps they should speak up. Keeping mum on the issue gives us the impression that they also bersekongkol on this BS, made believe masalah by Murphy Pakiam and sponsors!

      And of course it does not help also, them being quiet about it, since some of us are already thrashing UMNO and the Muslim Bumiputras for something that was not of their making.

      ‘I have said it in the past, and I will say it again.’

      Maybe now, FFC, they will need to say it out loud, themselves.

      1. That’s because unlike some, they collectively believe the judicial process should not be preempted.

        It is my understanding that’s there’s a consensus among the clergy that the judicial process be exhausted before any stance is made public and any statement is issued. As far as I can tell, the Catholic clergy in Sarawak has maintained that stance from day one unlike the “elegant silence” from our PM.

        Train your guns at something closer to home. Issuing statements asking those unhappy to migrate? Issuing statements telling a party not to appeal when it is their right to? Issuing statements telling East Malaysians to stop using the words where we’ve been living, breathing specimens of the much vaunted 1Malaysia? I’m not saying this because I’m Catholic as my stance over this issue is clear if you care to check my past comments.

        What good is all the bullshit when it does nothing towards resolving the issue? What good is it when all the statements are loaded with malice & threats? Are we schoolkids that we have to have the last word in every argument? When churches are firebombed & pig heads are thrown into mosques, all the words in the all the holy books of all the religions means nothing.

        As things stand, the ban was imposed on The Herald. East Malaysians will still stand by the 10 points solution presented by Idris Jala. If those 10 points make East Malaysians happy, tak payah lah nak buat statement sana sini. We don’t need another Paul Tan or fledgling Paul Tan like Sebastian Francis.

        As for any assumptions based on their silence, that’s your prerogative. I was once taught by my boss at work to assume nothing with cold hard facts. By assuming she said I make an ASs of U And ME.

        1. FFC, perhaps you are right.

          But how does that help, the Muslim brethren, for we are being accused of the one who had ‘started the fire’, when it was Murphy Pakiam that has started the Allah debacle when it did?

          Don’t you think that, we could use some help here, especially coming from Christians voices, telling Malaysians and #Malaysia, that we still have some moderate Christian voices, Catholic or otherwise?

          1. Oh come on islam1st @_@

            Both sides are bitching about the other side mate. Since they’re so intent on doing that we, and by we I’m referring to the Catholic Church of Sarawak & possibly the average Sarawakian, would think both sides of the argument has enough support from Perkasa, Isma, Umno, Utusan, TV3 etc etc on one side & evangelicals, MCCHSBT (or something like that), DAP commies, Scissorati, TMI etc etc.

            As for who started it, no one is gonna be bothered much after the finish line is crossed. The argument on who started what sounds much like those handbags we had back in school on the football field.

            The most unemotional people about all this seem to be domiciled or are from Sabah & Sarawak no? If I’m not mistaken, this saga rivals that of Star Wars starting in 1982. We have Episode VII coming in 2015. So chill lah, still a long journey before we hear the last of this issue what?

            1. ‘Both sides are bitching about the other side mate.’

              Agreed. But I just thought that perhaps with some ‘shout out’ from some ‘moderate mate’, would not make this into a Christians vs Muslims thingy, as have been highlighted by you, yes?

              1. Some things are set in stone bro. No amount of argument & counter arguments will make a difference for them.

                Go down to Kuching or Sibu if you have the chance. Walk around the older part of town. You’ll see Muslims & non Muslims sitting together in a Chinese coffee shop sharing coffee & roti kahwin. Same bond of kinship can be seen at weddings, birthdays, funerals etc.

                One word or even a bookful of words will do nothing to change that. So even if the moderates release statements after statements, you think it will change anything with the likes of the zealous Christians & similarly zealous Perkasa around?

            2. FFC, thank you for your comments. It is good to see rationale heads prevail. i am a Muslim but I am not frothing at the mouth because I disagree with the way people are bitching about the whole thing. I too prefer to let the legal process exhaust itself; although i don’t think the Catholic Church is gonna win. They are just wasting time and money. Although it’s too late now, I believe they should never have brought it to Court in the first place. Things like this should be settled in a more consultative manner.

              This may backfire on them you know; their own Christian children may get so confused that they accept Islam more easily.

  9. KRISTIAN tipu sbb asal agama Nasrani diturunkan untuk Bani Israel je. Jesus tak kata suruh sebarkan kpd bangsa lain. Islam memang diturunkan untuk sekalian Alam.

    1. Re. KRISTIAN tipu sbb asal agama Nasrani diturunkan untuk Bani Israel je.

      Itu bukan soal pokoknya. Yang pasti agama Kristian yang mereka amalkan sekarang bukan lagi agama Nasrani yang diturunkan pada Nabi Isa @ Jesus dahulu. Bible juga bukan lagi Bible yang dulu. Tenguk saja dar segi perayaan Christmas yang dikatakan sebagai hari kelahiran Nabi Isa.

      How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?

      A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

      B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

      C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

      D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

      E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

      F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.

      G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]

      H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.

      You can read more in here.

      http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

      The funny thing is I learned first about it from Sheldon the Big Bang Theory.

      1. re: “Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies”

        Reminds me of certain bullying politicians although we have to replace the words ‘Polish’ and ‘anti-semitic’.

          1. Uh-huh. Replace ‘Polish’ with Chinese and ‘anti-semetic’ with Umno and you get the “ABU, Ini kali lah” perpetual hysteria.

            1. A bit of a hyperbole. More appropriate would be ‘Polish’ with UMNO and ‘anti-semitic’ with Chinese, or more appropriately ‘bukan Islam’.

              Perpetual hysteria of ‘tsunami Cina’, konspirasi Yahudi, konspirasi Kristian, agenda Nam Tien, gengster Hindu, you name it.

              1. hmm……..

                You must tell me where I can sign up for a course that teaches me how to spin the arguments. I will sign up for it. Tell me, where can I sign up ?

                  1. Get a recommendation letter from Tony Pua, Hannah Yeoh etc + join an evangelical church, preferably City Harvest to be sure of being hired & guarantee astronomic career progression i.e. appointed press secretary to a minister.

        1. If you remember Kunta Kinte from roots, that was how they bullied the Muslim of Africa. Presently, more and more African American have reverted to Islam. Janet Jackson is the latest celebrity though via her marriage to one Arab Billionaire. It is not like Mr Bean fluke news.

          1. ‘Mr Bean fluke news.’

            Islam the religion, Allah SWT, the worshiped, One and Only God, need not Mr Bean or anyone for that matter to validate the sanctity of the religion and Allah SWT. It was never the case at all.

            The Muslim frenzied was more of a kesyukuran, thanksgivings, if you may, that someone, had reverted and found the one straight path to One and Only God the Almighty!

            Happy Quran reading everyone, especially to you Helen, perhaps you may be better Muslims than some of us here. Insya Allah. Ameen.

            1. Hey folks,

              Have you ever come across Bin Gregory blog? He is an American Jew who has converted to Islam, is married to a Malay/Muslim woman from Perak and now are settling down in Sarawak with their 7 kids. He has become a pious Muslim. Check it out for yourself at http://www.bingregory.com/

  10. Haha I bet Allah aka God aka Tuhan is looking down on these idiots with a wide grin on his face. He’s probably be sayin’ like, I ain’t got time for this farce, and proceeds to play his harp.

  11. Christians are so casual with their faith. They let Dan Brown wrote anything about Jesus, and named their sons Jesus as well. First they want to use the word, then they name their children Allah just like there are Jesus Navas and Jesus Gil today. And they will press for that in the court.

    1. Belum pernah lagi nama umat Islam menggunakan nama Allah (nama khusus) Cth: Allah bin Abu, Tapi Kristian selamba je guna nama jesus pada nama penganut mereka

      1. Berikut ialah interpretasi saya:

        Orang Islam terlalu banyak menggunakan nama ‘Muhammad’. Namun Nabi Muhammad meskipun rasul adalah manusia.

        Orang Kristian menggunakan nama ‘Jesus’ yang juga berupa rasul Allah. Jesus juga seorang manusia.

        Setakat ini persamaan di antara umat Kristian dan Islam.

        Untuk melanjutkan bab “mengelirukan” yang disebut hakim-hakim Mahkamah Rayuan:

        Selain orang Kristian menganggap Jesus sebagai Messiah, mereka juga menganggap Jesus sebagai salah satu Tuhan dalam Trinity mereka. Kalau Jesus tuhan boleh diambil mereka sebagai nama, timbul kemungkinan nama-nama Triniti yang lain juga diambil.

        Jadi memang terbuka ruang bagi orang Kristian menyalahgunakan kalimah Allah dari pelbagai segi memandangkan hakikat gereja evangelis yang mengamalkan pendekatan “anything goes”, contohnya City Harvest Church, serta sikap pengikut-pengikut mereka yang tidak tahu hormat.

          1. Sebab tulah kekeliruan timbul. Jesus dilahirkan ibu Maryam tetapi selepas disalib telah dikurniakan ‘divinity’.

              1. Tuhan Yang Maha Esa diturkarkan kepada Tuhan Yang Maha Isa.

                Sebelum dia orang nak curi Kalimah Allah lah. Sekarang nak sebut, ‘ in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost’ macam dalam filem the exorcist pun payah!

                1. Bukan tu saja. Malah anak-anak India pun mereka kebas. Anak-anak Ramachandran a.k.a Encik Hannah Yeoh, anak-anak dia ubah jadi Cina.

                  Saya pernah tanya soalan ni pada seorang Dapster yang berpendidikan Cina. Dia kata tak apa. Anak-anak seorang wanita Cina boleh dianggap sebagai Cina walaupun suami dia bukan Cina. Macam Yahudi lah tu.

            1. Re: selepas disalib telah dikurniakan ‘divinity’

              A fundamental belief in Christianity is that Jesus was made man to save the sinners by dying on the cross. The story of the Annunciation of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke (Lk 1: 26-38) made clear that Jesus was divine.

              “The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” Luke 1: 35 NIV

              The Nicene Creed a.k.a. The Profession of Faith (which is recited at Mass by Catholics, Anglicans & a number of evangelical & Protestant denominations) which precedes The Apostle’s Creed reads as such;

              (…)
              We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ
              The only Son of God
              Eternally begotten of the Father
              God from God
              Light from Light
              True God from true God
              Begotten, not made
              Consubstantial (of one Being) with the Father
              Through him all things were made
              For us men and for our salvation
              He came down from heaven:
              By the power of the Holy Spirit
              He was incarnate from the Virgin Mary
              And became man (…)

              So for a Christian, divinity of Jesus was a result of dying on the cross as He was already divine even at birth.

              1. So when he dies, where did his spirit go to? Or how did he die? Did he fake his death or did he really died? Like how many hours or days did he died? So when and why did he decide that, it is time for him to be alive again, after a period of being dead?

                When god dies, who had governed the earth? Does the earth governed by itself, when god died at the cross? And if the earth and earthlings did stand on their own, when god died, does that in anyway meant that we are superior than god? How can we be superiors, since we are still alive and kicking, when in fact, god had died?

                Serious, with all due respect, I really wanted to know all this. I hope I don’t sound offensive, because I don’t intent to.

                1. You should read up about the Trinitarian concept that Christians believe in.

                  As for not sounding offensive, I find the aggressive line of questioning well, offensive.

                  I have no interest in a pissing contest as to whose religion is better or whose religion is right.

                  1. ‘You should read up about the Trinitarian concept that Christians believe in’

                    I did. But not as in depth, perhaps, as I should. But I simply can’t appreciate the idea of it. Thus I simply lost interest altogether. Perhaps the very idea is alien to me.

                    But I can tell you that I have found The Gospel of Barnabas as a good read, I have read it twice and personally, I have found the narration had been very much in line with Islamic values (we Muslims subscribed to the idea that Islam was not a new religion, introduced by Prophet Muhammad saw, but he was the Last Messenger of Allah) although some Muslims may disagree with me.

                    The Unitarian concept is more fathomable to me, but then again it was made pariah by the Council of Nicea and the believers were declared heretics, yes?

                    ‘As for not sounding offensive, I find the aggressive line of questioning well, offensive.’

                    I’m sorry if I did. But it was what had popped into my head at the very instance, when I get to read what was written by you.

                    ‘I have no interest in a pissing contest as to whose religion is better or whose religion is right.’

                    Neither do I.

                    And having said that, don’t we as humans, are forever seeking for the truths? That is what that had brought us all here, in the first place, yes FFC?

                    Either way FFC, you are great as you are and I believe that we don’t have to be in agreement with everything thrown at us, all the time.

                2. Islam1st

                  Sorry to butt in.

                  Quote: “How can we be superiors, since we are still alive and kicking, when in fact, god had died?”

                  That depends how you define alive and kicking. I take it you are referring to those people at the time of the crucifixion?

                  According to the bible, Jesus died for 3 days and then he rose from the grave. The interesting part was the talk about where Jesus went during his 3 day absence in death. Of course those material are not church-sanctioned.

                  You asked about trinity somewhere. Explaining the concept of trinity is never easy because it is not written in the bible. Trinity is a by-product from reading and understanding of the bible. Try here for a simple explanation.. http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/a215/our-triune-god

                  If you are researching the concept of trinity for academic purposes then I suppose you got to do your job. If not, I find that (this is personal testimony) theological understanding does nothing to increase one’s faith. I am not saying one has to be ignorant about their religion, I am just sharing the fact theological understanding might add to our knowledge, but it does nothing to the heart.

                  Cheers

                  1. “Understanding” can be of the head, the heart, and even the body! No one though has ever separated his head from his heart from his body, and lived to talk about his faith in something. But the mind that comprehends things has fairly put in place the things that matter to the heart, and in things of which is beyond its reach, the still small voice of the soul speaks volumes what no theologian can express.

        1. Tak payah tenguk jauh Helen, contohnya Mati-mati Dapster @ Evagilista tu kata Zairil Khir Johari tu Melayu.

          1. Re Zairil Khir Johari tu Melayu

            sorry lah tapi hari ni Oct 19, bukan April 1. Kena bagi Dapster tahu kalau tidak mereka akan ingat tiap-tiap hari April 1.

  12. The Kalimah Allah issue was poorly handled by Perkasa and their ilk. Instead of using it as an opportunity for da’wah, they went all territorial macam kucing. They would have done better to explain nicely why it is so offensive to Muslims to imply that Allah is a triune god.

    1. re: “They would have done better to explain nicely …”

      Lots of people have tried to explain to them (them meaning the most vocal such as Bishop Paul Tan, Rev. Eu Hong Seng, Archbishop Murphy Pakiam, Father Lawrence Andrew and their lawyers and their followers, and the Pakatan screeders)

      But their response is invariably ‘Government is Playing Politics with ‘Allah’, see Kee Thuan Chye (whose book Guan Eng launched) @ http://my.news.yahoo.com/blogs/bull-bashing/government-playing-politics-allah-165351643.html

      The state muftis, imam besar, Jakim, Ikim, officers from the various Islamic agencies, theologians, Muslim academics and even Syed Naquib al-Attas are unable to convince them that the Allah issue is not an Umno agenda.

      1. Re. unable to convince them that the Allah issue is not an Umno agenda.

        Asal Bukan UMNO tapi Semua Salah UMNO….

          1. Then the gomen should give a piece of land legally to Indian communities that qualify and provide allocation for Hindu temples to be built. Then we wouldn’t see so many built illegally if there were state-sanctioned alternatives provided.

            1. Very true,

              But the Indian must also corporate and change the way they behave i.e asyik mengutuk dan mengata GOMEN aje sedangkan mereka sendiri kelam kabut. As you mentioned before ” Ada 4 orang India, Mereka hendak menubuhkan 5 buah parti, dengan 10 jawatan”.

              1. I agree. Those Indians that want gomen assistance must modify their behaviour.

                Non-Indians will have to learn to differentiate between the Indians.

                Those who belong to the “I’m-not-Indian-actually” tribe think that they do not need “crumbs from the master Umno’s table” will never desist from asyik mengutuk dan mengata gomen aje b’cos they do figure they do not benefit from any gomen assistance.

                So the pro-establishment folks need to be able to distinguish that there different Indians.

            2. Helen, my view is “yes and no”. It would be of a great help if the govt provides land and even funds for Hindu temples (and other places of worship) in areas where there are significant number of Hindus live. This is being done today but it is not systematic, perhaps it would help if there are clear policies.

              On the other hand, there are enough Indians who are irresponsible and build temples as they wish. There are far more Hindu temples per capita in Malaysia than Mosques. I have been very critical on this issue and some of my Indian friends seemed to think that building temples anywhere they wish (irrespective of the ownership of land or appropriateness of the location) is their human rights. Even in India such practices are illegal.

              There are many projects have been delayed or even halted due to the presence of such illegal temples. My friend told me a major road project in Seremban been halted for years due to a court case involving an illegal temple. Despite losing the case, the temple owner insisted on not moving.

              The problem is not an issue of faith, but of cash. Temples are cash cows (pardon the pun) and those people who fight the hardest are motivated by money. The rest are all sandiwara. Even the infamous case of Kg Jawa temple in Klang that triggered Hindraf upraising was motivated by money.

              1. Calvin,

                I’ve written before my view that the legality or illegality of a Hindu temple should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

                I suggested 1957 as the cut-off year. A temple which is 99 years old – built in 1924, say – can conceivably be excused for not having the proper paper documentation (land title deed). A surau built in the same year might experience the same predicament.

                Another consideration is the provenance. How large an Indian community does it serve? Has it established a custom (long-time tradition), i.e. certain Hindu festivals are held annually and draws a throng of devotees? Size, i.e. significantly big and not a shrine under a tree. Heritage, i.e. history, the gods that the temple serves, aesthetic value of its architecture, etc.

                  1. Islam1st,

                    I agree with both Calvin and Helen.

                    1. Calvin due to the issues posed by the existing temples and it being money generated machine. I have commented about the later before.

                    There is one in Jalan P Ramlee now that is facing a problem. In Jalan Hang Tuah and neaby there are two Hindu temples with less than 50 Indian community (I think).

                    2. Helen due to the fact that the Hindu community needs to start streamlining their priority, mind you there are estimated 330 million gods and goddesses in Hinduism. This is no easy task as everything and anything can be considered as one. That is why Helen proposed a cut off time.

                    1. Perhaps.

                      But surely those in need of a temple, can apply for that piece of land at the local municipalities. Bring over the communities leader along to help ease the process. But the current practice, ‘Pacak, Bina dan Pertahan’ at all cost, is wrong and must be stopped.

                1. I missed that Helen but your points are quite fair and valid. I generally in agreement with you.

                  I have some experiences in such cases before so I can only speak from my own personal experience and those of my close friends. The usual problem is the ones in estates or land that have been sold off. It is normal to have one temple in an estate, sometimes a smaller shrine for other deities. Usually these temples are relocated when the land is sold. This is because the people also move out from the estate.

                  But often some irresponsible, opportunistic people build small shrine on the original land in the hope that the developer will pay them off. This happened many many times. In my own experience almost every case was never the original temple but newer shrines either on the original location or elsewhere. These guys tend to claim these are 100 years old or more. I always call their bluff, since the estate itself was a jungle before the 40s.

                  The Kg jawa also the same case. The developer paid money to temple committe but they took the money but did not vacate the temple. The new committe was established to extract more money which obviously the developer refused to pay. They went to court and won. I don’t think MBSA was correct or politically wise in demolishing the temple but the real villains were the opportunists temple committe members. One such blatant example of such blackmail is the Bukit Tinggi area in Klang where several instant temples mushroomed after the Kg jawa incident to make money out of the developer. You can still see 5 or 6 tiny temples within the 100 m radius of each other.

                  It is possible that some of the disputed temples have some valid grounds, though I have never come across one myself. What I found is that developers be it the Chinese or Malay, usually very careful and respectful in removing temples in the fear of divine retributions. One good example is how the developer maintained the temple at the site of Mid Valley in KL.

                  1. re: “how the developer maintained the temple at the site of Mid Valley in KL”

                    Yes, classic! :D

          2. I did not follow the issue but some one posted the voice recording of the call between the HM and Saravanan. As a Hindu I don’t think animal sacrifice in front of children is approprite but as a Malaysian I understand the reasons and context.

            I don’t know if this is something that should or should not be carried out in school but if this is required then I would have requested the school to be a little more understanding and done away from the presence of Hindu & Budhist kids.

            This guy Saravanan was quite arrogant and came across as having a superiority complex. He was saying he’s calling from overseas and I am not sure of his background.

            I think the HM should not be entertaining such calls from strangers but only from parents and that should be also face to face.

            As for Veda, I must admit that lot of things that Hindus do today are not part of Hinduism. For example the indiscriminate building of temples everywhere is strictly forbidden yet some Hindus in Malaysia do that. The Malaysia Hindu Sangam is weak and mute on this issue.

            1. You can hear the audio recording @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRQuHh_2r6w

              Saravanan wrote a Letter to the Editor on the same topic, http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/244079

              The best way is to comb the government or Education Ministry regulations whether such a slaughtering is permitted or not in the premises of a school.

              It is not a matter of questioning the practise of Islamic korban but whether a school is an appropriate venue to be slaughtering animals.

              1. ‘and done away from the presence of Hindu & Budhist kids.’

                I can see the rational behind this.

                ‘but whether a school is an appropriate venue to be slaughtering animals.’

                Not all SK schools are having this at their school padang. Reasons may be various too, some simply for the lacks of big enough space in the local surroundings and some perhaps, on wanting to teach Islamic values and practices among the Muslim schoolchildren.

                1. re: “wanting to teach Islamic values and practices among the Muslim schoolchildren”

                  Yup, that’s what the pengetua said in the audio recording we heard with Saravanan.

                  The repercussions of his act (and other headmasters who adopt the same approach) is that Hindu parents will begin to shy away from national school. Already the SKs do not have Chinese enrollment. We saw that in the ethnic breakdown of the Seri Pristana pupils.

              2. Re. It is not a matter of questioning the practise of Islamic korban but whether a school is an appropriate venue to be slaughtering animals.

                Sorry to say Helen.

                Inilah benda-benda “remeh” yang kaum Indian patut atasi dan “get over it”, sedangkan masyarakat Islam di Singapura dan negara Barat cuba menerima seadanya kekangan yang diberi kerajaan negara tersebut dalam menjalankan ibadah mereka.

                Di Bukit Bintang ni di sebuah kawasan Flat DBKL, upacara Korban dibuat di sebelah Kuil Hindu, lebih kurang 50 meter and nobody complains and it has been that way since.

                1. It boils down to what activities can be carried out within school premises and what cannot. There are written rules and regulations governing the conduct of schools, and the disputants should look at the fine print pertaining.

                  In any case, the Indian oppo MPs are bringing up this matter today in Parliament. I wonder what will be the MIC’s stand.

                  1. Re. It boils down to what activities can be carried out within school premises and what cannot. There are written rules and regulations governing the conduct of schools, and the disputants should look at the fine print pertaining.

                    Isu-isu remeh. The School has other important things to deal with.

                    Re. In any case, the Indian oppo MPs are bringing up this matter today in Parliament. I wonder what will be the MIC’s stand.

                    Can you beat that? There many more issues that will benefit the Indian the most that they should put forward and they choose this.

                    1. re: “Isu-isu remeh. The School has other important things to deal with.”

                      It is not a trivial matter to the Hindu parents.

                      If the shoe was on the other foot, and a Chinese school with 5 percent Malay student population slaughtered a suckling pig to roast for some thanksgiving function, the Muslim parents would not take kindly either.

                    2. While that is true, but the rule always favor ” While In Rome Acts Like A Roman, While In Greece Acts Like A Greek”. The same way the Malays who goes to SJKC and have no issue with the canteen serving pork.

                      My point is, when the tide is not in your favor do prioritize. Kalau asyik-asyik buat lagu tu aje, lama-lama orang pun menyampah.

                    3. Your point taken, LOL, insofar as realpolitik goes.

                      However the public space for the non-Muslims is diminishing so rapidly. We feel that we have no place in this country.

                    4. Re. However the public space for the non-Muslims is diminishing so rapidly.

                      I am not sure whether that is true as you can see, there already the biggest Church in Asia, Sleeping Buddha in Kelantan and in fact two of them, The Goddess of something in Penang, Batu Caves being the largest in Southeast Asia plus many many temples along the way legal plus illegal.

                      Present development will not accommodate anymore space for such. As you can see all of disputes are the results of the development taking place and who are the developers most of the time?

                      The issue may be easier for us the Muslim, but still we can just build mosque and surau as we wish, we are highly regulated by the GOMEN and JAKIM. Even renovation and rebuilding require long process of approval to justify the reason where they will come and do inspection.

                      Unlike the Hindu Indian, where they normally will gradually build it without even asking for permit still the government keep a blind eye over that, until the developer comes up to reclaim. The same way the red box that I have been talking about. The GOmen has not said anything about thus far.

                      So to say that “the public space for the non-Muslims is diminishing so rapidly” with the hint that it was the GOMEN fault is not fair at all.

                      FYI, for us Muslim here in Malaysia there are currently 11,000 hectors or 22,000 hectors idle waqf land donated by individual Muslim – can’t recall the exact figure it may be bigger. This is the land which most of the time will be used to build Mosque and Surau, But the trend is changing, where now the GOMEN, JAKIM and Majlis Agama Islam Negeri together with Waqf Organisation have started refocus into business related/commercial building with sustainable incomes that will be reinvested and used for the Muslim community. Bank Islam Headquarter in Jalan Perak Bukit Bintang is one such example. The GOMEN don’t fund this project, but it takes 3 organisations to collaborate i.e Tabung Haji via funding from depositors, JAKIM the administrator of the Waqf Land and Bank Islam the anchor tenant. There are several other similar project.

                      Re. We feel that we have no place in this country.

                      I understand, but it is beyond my control.

                    5. re: “the biggest Church in Asia, Sleeping Buddha in Kelantan and in fact two of them, The Goddess of something in Penang, Batu Caves being the largest in Southeast Asia plus many many temples along the way legal plus illegal.”

                      The supposedly biggest church (in Bukit Jalil) in Southeast Asia is a new building erected by the evangelists. The others that you mention are old.

                      The authorities blocked the building of the statue of Goddess Maru in Kudat, Sabah.

              3. I m not sure if there are such rules exist. I would suggest that there should be some clear policies on such senstivities issues. Personally I don’t think such slaughtering of animals in schools is appropriate. But I think it is whether it is appropriate or not should be left to the Muslim religious scholars to decide. This is because the reality in Malaysia today is non Muslims make up that less than 10% of the student population in SKs.

                However my personal view is that even this is permitted, it should be done in such a way that it is restricted physically and visually to the Muslim kids. Non Muslim kids should be kept away and measures should be in place to ensure the ceremony is done such way and respect those who might be sensitive to such activities.

                In India for example, Hindu practices are held at schools despite the presence of non Hindus and that the country is officially secular. The same goes in Missionary schools or even in the US.

                1. re: “This is because the reality in Malaysia today is non Muslims make up that less than 10% of the student population in SKs.”

                  It’s heading to zero percent at the rate things are going.

                  re: “The same goes in Missionary schools or even in the US.”

                  Even if a mission school were to hold a Christmas (carol singing) pageant and have a rotund teacher dress up as Santa Claus to distribute candy to non-Christian students, it would not be as traumatizing as a young pupil witnessing the slaughter of a cow.

                  If the national schools want to be fully Islamic schools, fine. Just don’t expect to push Satu Sekolah Untuk Semua and expect a ringing endorsement for the concept.

                  1. Re. it would not be as traumatizing as a young pupil witnessing the slaughter of a cow.

                    Why are they there in the first place. I don’t think it is like a compulsory assembly that they have to attend. Even for the Muslims, the parents will normally won’t brings young kids to attend the Ibadah Korban.

                    1. ‘If the national schools want to be fully Islamic schools, fine. Just don’t expect to push Satu Sekolah Untuk Semua and expect a ringing endorsement for the concept.’

                      I can see the opportunity for the Anti Satu Sekolah Untuk Semua to jumps at this and at the Seri Pristina brouhaha.

                      But I would rather push for more and more non Muslims to send their kids to SK, so that decision made on the schools activity won’t be Muslim centric.

                      As of now, there is no need to be extra sensitivities to some, perhaps different people had different take on issues, since non Muslim pupils count less than 10%. Still I think that should not be the only considerations, but still how do you think the voices of the non Muslim parents will be represented in the respective PIBGs?

      2. On the other hand, it is DAP that made this a political issue and used it to garner vote starting from the Sarawak state elections. The reason why Dapsters are keen to say it is an UMNO agenda is to divert a legal matter to the political platform so they can capitalize it.

        The strategy of DAP is to make every issue regarding Malays and islam as an UMNO issue so they can attack it and use it to frighten the non Muslims. In short, instead of attacking Malays and Muslims, they use UMNO as a proxy.

        1. re: “The strategy of DAP is to make every issue regarding Malays and islam as an UMNO issue so they can attack it and use it to frighten the non Muslims.”

          They’ve already got the Chinese and non-native Christian votes locked down. With the Chinese-Christian support for DAP already at saturation level, wouldn’t it be the law of diminishing returns to continue frightening the non Muslims?

          I feel their strategy would be for the spesi Iguana Eng to step up their Jilat Bontot efforts, going into overdrive amou-bodek Melayu voters by wearing tudung, descending upon the suraus and mosques, and tweet “Insya Allah”, “Alhamdulillah” because a lot of the new 4 million or more young, eligible voters are Melayu.

          DAP have got a lot of young leaders. A number of their Aduns and MPs in Johor are only in their 20s and 30s.

          1. ‘because a lot of the new 4 million or more young, eligible voters are Melayu.’

            The very reason why OKM and kakis are wary (and worried too) of UMNO and Perkasa’s voter registration drives!

          2. Re. They’ve already got the Chinese and non-native Christian votes locked down.

            Orang Cina sekarang ini Ibarat Ikan Emas dalam Aquarium, where you can see their lips are moving but nobody is listening, as all their leaders are busy catching other fish.

          3. You are right about the law of diminishing returns and saturation. However, the strategy of Pakatan is to focus on the Sabah and Sarawak non Chinese Christian voters. That’s why their statements are rather guarded and some (LGE, HY, etc) did not even comment.

            Their Iguana strategy is both defensive and attacking. Defensive in the sense that they want to be avoid seen as anti Malay by their wolf in sheeps’ clothing act. Attacking in the sense that they are appealing to the urban, young Malay voters. Christopher Ross alias Zairil and whats-her-name LKS’ aide are example of such strategic moves. Expect more such Ali Babis…oooops…Ali Babas to be joining the Development Above People party.

            1. CS for saying this, ‘Expect more such Ali Babis’, you, I’m sure, aware that you have made your good self eligible for the ‘Anjing UMNOs’ label around your neck?!

            2. .
              .

              .

              .

              Calvin

              Lim G E has been styling his

              image on an arab leader , Omar Abdul

              Aziz. I suspect the process of islamization

              of the Dapmen and Dapsies [dap daisies] will go one gear up-

              dapmen will take arab names like Omar Lim, and dapsies will assume

              names like Hasna or Hanana Yeoh or even Katijah Kok . So far

              the dapsies have gone tudung-crazy like Siti Neoh

              giving lectures and alms in mosques. We must look

              forward to seeing Katijah Kok declaring that she too

              would wear tudung and dropping to see the melayus at

              the local mosque!

              all these measures are in line with the evangelistas

              going arabo-crazy. first they want the Allah word as

              their declared god to be the nescafe-mix 3-in-1 god

              in their bible. Assuming arab style as brader Omar Lim

              would be a logical progression. Of course Murphy [Pakiam]

              would sound funny now that the catholic want to use arabo-

              nomenclature for God. A name like Mustapa Qayyam would be

              a suitable choice for Pakiam should the catholic

              eventually got their wish!

          4. Re I feel their strategy would be for the spesi Iguana Eng to step up their Jilat Bontot efforts, going into overdrive amou-bodek Melayu voters by wearing tudung, descending upon the suraus and mosques, and tweet “Insya Allah”, “Alhamdulillah” because a lot of the new 4 million or more young, eligible voters are Melayu.

            Yet during 505, they told the Chinese that only they, the DAP can fight for the interest of the Chinese community.

            So what is all this jilat bontot now ? The Chinese must be really proud of themselves now. The so called heroes of the Chinese, the DAP jilat bontot orang Melayu. Their way of defending the Chinese, fighting for the Chinese is to jilat bontot orang Melayu.

            1. My typo, ” ampu-bodek Melayu”

              Yup, the DAP supporters have been suckered bigtime. Their DAP heroes fighting for Chinese interests:

              null

              1. No pun intended. Only now I realized that the “new” Chinese or Cina Baru look like these 2. Thanks. By the way, next time, if you intend to use the term “Cina Baru” please mention my name. He he he !

  13. Agama tidak dapat menyelamatkan manusia.Percaya pada Yesus dan jalankan misi Dia nescaya manusia selamat sampai selamanya.Amen…

  14. Agama Yesus boleh pudar dan hilang tapi FirmanNya akan tetap untuk selamanya! Bukankah orang Kristian di Arab juga guna kalimah”ALLAH”????

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