Posted in Religion

Dr M: “You can investigate but you don’t have to stop people getting married”

Source of title quote, ‘Dr M: Jais wrong, should go back to Quran’ (Malaysiakini, breaking news)

The Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism and Taoism (MCCBCHST} is “appalled that Jais had gone into a Hindu temple and stopped a marriage ceremony from taking place”.

BN political parties MCA and Gerakan have expressed their concern.

But DAP’s spokesmen have not said a thing.

The last press statement to appear in Lim Guan Eng’s website is his Open Letter to Teluk Intan voters.

BELOW: “No Indians” in DAP Cloud Cuckoo Land

twitterhannahNoChinese

The latest 5 press statement to appear in Lim Kit Siang’s website are:

  • The greatest enemy to Najib’s 1Malaysia Policy are the cancer organisations like Isma which preaches the politics of hate, intolerance, lies and racism (LKS press statement)
  • Dyanamania, Dyanaphobia and Dyanaphiles (TMI article)
  • Will Najib at the Cabinet meeting tomorrow put a stop to the Dyanaphobia which is beginning to sweep Muhyiddin’s Education Ministry? (LKS press statement)
  • The BN Government should close down MAS (Letter from DAP supporter)
  • How I felt when I joined DAP (Dyana’s Malay Mail article)

From the 5 most recent postings (listed above) to appear in Kit Siang’s blog, you can see that his party is very self-absorbed and only interested in themselves. Four of Kit Siang’s most recent postings focus on or are related to Dyana.

The DAP clearly does not give a hoot about issues affecting Indians or Hindus.

It is very rich of the navel-gazing Kit Siang to brand Isma as preaching “the politics of hate, intolerance, lies and racism”.

Jalan Selangor berkolam pancing

Selangor is ruled by Pakatan

Selangor is badly governed. Selangorians are left wondering if our MB wants to poison us through piping air lombong to our homes.

Badly maintained roads, which are full of potholes, cause motorcycles to spill and the riders to be injured.

The poor service from municipal council allows rubbish to accumulate and lalang to grow and breed aedes mosquitoes. Selangorians get sick from leptospirosis, a disease transmitted through rat urine because the dirtiness of the state (due to lousy garbage disposal service) is encouraging rats — especially in Subang Jaya.

BELOW: Puan Speaker preparing for the barbecue, yummy yammy

HannahTikus

Selangorians die from denggi fever due to the semak-samun that are not cleared and the clogged drains which become mosquito breeding grounds.

Some women have had miscarriages because Selangor is like a Third World country where people have to line up with their buckets to collect water from the passing trucks.

Jais is a state agency under the Selangor government. The Selangor government is totally dominated by Pakatan. Four out of every 5 Selangor Adun is a Pakatan representative.

GajiNaikSelangor

Jais invokes a law in Selangor which makes it an offence “to persuade, influence or incite any Muslim to change their faith”.

In the case of the Hindu wedding that was raided by Jais, the affected woman was having her marriage ceremony lah. She was not conducting any ritual to leave Islam or to convert out of Islam.

The bride has only practised Hinduism since birth. She has never recited the kalimah syahadah. She was raised by her Hindu mother. One parent (the father) cannot unilaterally convert the children.

According to the woman, she has been trying the last seven years to remove the word “Islam” from her IC and spent thousands of ringgit already on lawyers fees but the NRD won’t budge.

Basically, the authorities want her to bang her head against the wall until her skull cracks.

DAPbang

And the religious authority of Selangor detained her on her wedding day some more, to give her [last minute] “advice” on Islam.

Meanwhile the DAP which claims that it believes in a “Malaysia for Malaysians” has nothing to comment on the Jais raid that took place in a state presided over by its DAP Speaker because the party is afraid of offending the potential Malay vote bank.

The DAP is very much like Dyana and her snaky stand on hudud. In front of different audiences, she says different things. DAP do not say what they mean and do not mean what they say. Theirs is the politics of expediency. They will do anything to get the votes to come to federal  power.

The Malay votes will provide DAP their electoral breakthrough. That’s why the DAP is keeping quiet on this Jais business. DAP will not speak up for the Indians nor Hindus at the risk of offending the Muslims.

On the other hand Dr Mahathir, whom the Dapsters daily curse, is firm on ‘no hudud’ and he maintains the same public message to all audiences.

Tun has also weighed in on the Jais raid while the DAP preserves its thundering silence. And the Dapsters say BN voters are “stupid”. Jais is a Selangor agency, no meh?

http://news.malaysia.msn.com/tmi/dr-mahathir-rebukes-jais-for-disrupting-hindu-wedding
http://news.malaysia.msn.com/tmi/dr-mahathir-rebukes-jais-for-disrupting-hindu-wedding

(818 words)

She said she spent thousands of ringgit hiring lawyers to help but it was all in vain.

– See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/muslim-woman-who-married-a-hindu-refuses-to-back-down#sthash.UWZrYWJ9.dpuf

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42 thoughts on “Dr M: “You can investigate but you don’t have to stop people getting married”

    1. The Indians in Selangor support Pakatan.

      The Pakatan reps that they voted into office and who control the Selangor legislative body will do nothing for them even though Pakatan has far more than a 2/3 majority (4/5 in fact).

      The Aduns prefer giving their Speakers 300% pay hikes rather than take an interest in these matters.

      In GE13, Pakatan received 59.8% of the popular vote for Selangor’s state seats. Only 40% of Selangor voters are “stupid”. Sixty percent of them are very clever.

    1. PAS for all, hudud for all.

      Orang Cina undi PAS dan undi Pakatan, bermakna mereka sokong hudud.

  1. Jais is under Selangor. The Selangorian voted for Jais as well. So live with it, and enjoy their ruling. you choose the wrong government, you pay the price!!!!!! he he he.

  2. Still remember my bro’s question when he visited Selangor for the 1st time “Bang, nape Selangor ni banyak sangat sampah merata?”

    The over-paid politicians in Selangor with the so-called status of the most advanced and richest state in Malaysia doesn’t really reflect their service to the people and its conditions.

    A situation which also reminds me of Kenya though, albeit not as advanced as Selangor.

  3. its good to wait and see the reactions of pakatan esp pas in selangor on this issue. pas has been saying that umno is liberal n ignorant of islam since decades. lets see how they handle sensitive religious
    issues.

    religion issues are terribly
    difficult to handle helen. on
    one hand muslims can’t be
    seen as allowing apostasy
    which is dosa sgt besar.
    unfortunately, there will be
    more of these kind of
    controversies.

    dap shud consult pas on
    the punishment under
    hudud for apostasy. if they
    don’t ve the guts to, there”s
    always dyana the puppet
    as their mouthpiece. only
    she will get the blame coz
    she’s a muslim. lks n lge will
    be let off the hook.

    there is a need to consult
    the muftis n majlis fatwa
    on the appropriate SOP as
    this kind of issues will be
    on the rise thus causing
    religious tensions

    btw, living in selangor is worse than living in the
    kampung nowadays, water
    problems, rumput tak
    potong, jln berlubang, dirty
    environment n all kinds of
    illegal shops n eateries by
    the roadsides, illegals
    everywhere we go.(sigh)

    kalau bn yg perintah selangor, for sure everyday pakatan supporters will demo…..

    1. I think this woman’s case is rare and does not have an impact on the akidah of the ummah at large.

      She’s not murtad if she has never ucap kalimah syahadah. Quietly let this one go lah :)

          1. An error on his identity card causing heartache for Johann Lim Noordin

            KUALA LUMPUR: An error which occurred nineteen years ago on the identity card of Johann Lim Nordin has caused a lot of inconvenience and heartache for him.

            On his official identity card, his full name is stated as Johann Lim Noordin bin Billy Noordin while his birth certificate states his name as Johann Lim Noordin .

            By religion, Johann is a Buddhist and has never been a Muslim.

            Pronounced as Yo-han, this 32-year old Chindian from Penang has been trying to get this error resolved with the National Registration Department (NRD) since he was 13-years-old.

            According to Johann’s email to Astro AWANI, he has submitted all the necessary supporting documents to the NRD which included a copy of his birth certificate and identity card, his father’s identity card and an amendment form dated October 7, 2011.

            He even included his younger brother’s identity card and an official letter from the Penang State Religious office stating that the office has no records of such a name in their list, just so to strongly prove that he is not a Muslim.

            All the supporting documents pointed out an error which took place when Johann registered for his official identity card when he was twelve years old.

            In his letter to the NRD, he has been trying to get this issue sorted out since he was 13 and after his application was passed on from one department to another, Johann decided to give it a rest.

            It was only two years ago that Johann realised the impact this error posed to his personal life – Johann could not get married to the woman of his dreams with an error on the religion status of his identity card.

            Realising this complexity, Johann went all out to get his identity card straightened out only to encounter overwhelming frustration with the answers given by the NRD. It has been close to three years and his case is still pending.

            According to Johann, the last reply from the NRD had caused even more confusion. In a reply dated May 19, 2014, the department had suggested for Johann to obtain an official letter from the Syariah Court stating that he is not a Muslim.

            Johann has sought legal advice and is pleading the NRD to look into his case urgently.

            Astro AWANI contacted the NRD earlier today for comments and according to an officer there, Johann’s case was still under investigation and that the NRD is not obliged to release any information on the matter until further clarification has been made by the rightful authority of the NRD.

            Read more at: http://english.astroawani.com/news/show/an-error-on-his-identity-card-causing-heartache-for-johann-lim-noordin-36118?cp

                1. Isn’t this what Hannah Yeoh’s whole ‘Anak Bangsa Malaysia’ rigmarole is all about?

                  The DAP is always inciting the Chinese that they are second class citizens compared to Malays who are first class citizens.

                  So the DAP shenanigans to do away with race identification is in fact to flatten the landscape so that the Malays can no longer be identified as “Malays” (DAP has made “Malay” become a racist, four letter word) and thus there is no Bumiputera-ism.

                  So here is a Chinese guy who might be eligible to buy ASN. This is what Hannah Yeoh is fighting for by manipulating her children’s formal identity. Now this Johann Lim bin Noordin wants out pula?

                  He and Hannah should meet up and exchange views, or exchange places.

              1. In Sarawak it’s common among the non-muslim Melanaus to have “bin” or “binti” in their names.There’s never been a fuss on this.And that they are respected as such.There was never a confusion since memorial.

                1. Am aware that non-Muslim native Sarawakians have bin/binti but this chap is, according to the report, a Chindian surnamed “Lim”.

          2. ‘Why do you (as one example) feel that she must be kept within Islam?’

            She’s not Lina Joy to begin with. I just hope the authority serves her justice.

            1. The authority i.e. JAIS has the right intention but with the wrong MO. The intention doesn’t justify the deed.

              By now NRD should have enough cases to do a review once and for all, to clean up the list and establish policy and procedure, and table it in the parliament. I am pretty sure that there are many other silence cases or cases bound to happen for as long as the general public is not being informed and educated accordingly.

              Long ago we have Nurulhuda Abdullah, our swimming queen who was a Buddhist by birth and given a Muslim name. Alhamdulillah, now she has received hidayah and become a Muslim. We have no issue back then. And now we have Hannah Yeoh and the husband who tried to push the boundary. Her children may have not faced any problem should anything happened to them, for they are public figures. Just imagine should ordinary people follow the trend and God forbid, something unthinkable and the children were left orphan. and being pushed from orphanage to another through out their lives. Mistake is bound to happen, and what will become of them should the case of Johan Lim Bin Abdullah being replicated? and this is just one probable scenario. Already there is a case in Pulau Pinang or Kedah where an Indian girl raised in an orphanage and was converted to become Muslim when she was young (according to her), but now decides to become Hindu upon finding out that she was born a Hindu.

              Then there is case of Nonya Mansur who is a non-Muslim with Muslim name. When she died, the family had problem with religious authority for her identity card (I think) stated as she is Muslim. The court had given order in favor of the family as she had never practiced Islam and Malay Culture.

              There are various other cases related to Muslim converts who hid their status from their immediate family, but when they died, the tussle began between the religious authority and the immediate family members. The case of the late Mount Everest climber (the first attempt) is one such example.

              Finally there is a growing case of parent who converted to become Muslim and unknown to his/her partner has also converted the children along. To say that children should be allowed to decide on their religious conviction on their own by the age of 18 years old, is rather idealistic, for by 18 years old if you have been brought up as non-Muslim the odd is you will never become one (without hidayah from Allah swt). I firmly believe that by virtue that Islam is the official religion of this country, the Islamic jurisdiction should prevail over the other religion in dealing with this issue. This will totally sound unfair to the non-Muslim, but to be fair as a precedent the law of this country has allowed non-Muslim parents to decide on the religion of their children, and should the children wish to become Muslim they have to wait until they reach the age of 18 years old; referring to a case of a Chinese girl who went to court to seek order to be allowed to become a Muslim, but was advised by the court to come back when she reached the age of 18 years old and Alhamdulillah she did. I think her Muslim name is Siti Aishah.

              1. The cabinet has decided that no minors should be converted unilaterally by one parent alone.

                It takes both the father and the mother to create a child, and the child was conceived within a non-Muslim marriage, i.e. at birth born to a non-Muslim mother as well as a non-Muslim father.

                The child should remain within the fold of the religion in which it was conceived.

                1. Re. The child should remain within the fold of the religion in which it was conceived.

                  Idealistically Yes. But there is an issue of custody right and the battle over it. The syariah law rules that for Muslim couple if there is no amicable solution between the two parents, the mother will be given the right over children custody below the age of 7 years. But this is always not the case, for many of the time the father has also given the same custody right.

                  Now with regards to civil law, the custody battle will be totally different many of the time, either party would have equal chance to win the right should there is no amicable solution.

                  Let’s put forward a case where either one of the parents is a Muslim convert, should the winning party is a Muslim do you think that he or she would want to raise the kid as non-Muslim? Fat chance right?

                  How do you explain and resolve the situation then? Whether you like it or not, being a country where Islam is the official religion, the bias will be in favor of the Muslims. Likewise, the reverse will be applied in other country with religious pluralism practice.

                  Di Mana Bumi Dipijak Di Situ Langit Dijunjung.

                  1. re: “should the winning party is a Muslim do you think that he or she would want to raise the kid as non-Muslim?”

                    We might want to question the sincerity of the parent’s conversion itself.

                    As you correctly point out, Malaysia being a country where Islam is the official religion, the bias always will be in favor of the Muslims. Therefore, the mualaf parent feels that he is in a “sure win” position, and he is right. We’ve seen this, not only in the Syariah Court decisions on custody but also in the selective actions of the police.

                    Do you remember the Red Beanie who came here to taunt me to convert? He said that if I became a Muslim, he’d vote for to become the Adun of Subang Jaya. He also masqueraded as a Malay by using a Malay pseudonym.

                    It only goes to show how cynically some scumbags treat religion as a vehicle for personal advancement.

                    (1) To the Red Beanie and their captains and generals, there is nothing sacred about Islam or being a Muslim.

                    If by putting on a tudung, making an appearance at the mosque, tweeting #sahur, wishing “Insya Allah” and spouting [mispronouncing] a few verses of the Quran will net them the votes in order to win power [= Gold + self-Glory], then by God that’s what they’ll do.

                    (2) We’re all aware how the Red Beanies menyamar sebagai orang Melayu dan Muslim. What kind of people are they?!

                    Given what we know above about the Red Beanies, how sure are we about the authenticity of the conversions?

                    It doesn’t look like the religious authorities are stringent about who is Muslim and who is not. Take the case of The Bride. She clearly has no wish to practise Islam yet the mullahs still want to keep her in Islam.

                    So, supposing the convert is insincere, how can they bring up their kidnapped children as Muslims? We cannot discount the possibility that conversion is just a means of “sure win” and to kenakan their ex-spouse.

                    1. We know of friends and family who have embraced Islam either by their own accord or by marriage. Its done openly and everyone knows. Which is why all these unilateral and secretive conversions are so suspect. There is ulterior motive and malicious intent, leveraging on the law to get their way in custody or property.

                    2. Re. There is ulterior motive and malicious intent, leveraging on the law to get their way in custody or property.

                      I have explained about the custody part above, but in terms of property, they are still bound under civil law not the syariah law. In syariah law the husband doesn’t have the right over the wife’s property. But it is natural that when the wife died, the property will normally be transferred to the living spouse and children.

                      Sometime ago, an acquittance who is a non-Muslim has a brother who is a Muslim convert and married to a Malay Muslim. I remember reading the news about the wife who died in a motorcycle accident. She is a big bike fan. I believe the legal tussle over the property right over the late wife estate started when the in-laws also wanted to claim the right over the estate. Since the wife didn’t leave any will, the case would be decided by the syariah court as per the stated law. The things that puzzle me over this case is when the acquaintance who is not Muslim claimed that her brother was at the losing end, because the syariah court would take all the estate away from his brother, which is not true, for the brother is a Muslim. Thus he is bound by the syariah law and not civil law.

                    3. ‘Which is why all these unilateral and secretive conversions are so suspect. There is ulterior motive and malicious intent, leveraging on the law to get their way in custody or property.’

                      My concern as well

                  2. Re. We might want to question the sincerity of the parent’s conversion itself.

                    I think in many cases, the conversion took place while he or she was still married, but when the other spouse refuses to convert, that’s when the trouble begins and leads to divorce. There is no way that a Muslim convert can remain marriage to his/her non-Muslim partners as this country doesn’t practice religious pluralism like in Indonesia. Btw, do you know that the late Inbu Tien is a Christian while Suharto is a Muslim, or Shah Rukh Khan is a Muslim, while his wife is a Hindu?

                    I can understand dubious conversion case may take place after the divorce and during custody battle, when either the losing or winning party wants to secure their rights. But a lot of the time, I don’t think that the court will favor the one without the custody right to convert the children while the children still remain with the non-Muslim parent. Still the case of the Indian doctor (the father), a Muslim convert who has the custody right (I think but not sure about this), who has converted his children as well found that the court ruling doesn’t favor him where the children were return to the mother.

                    I am a Muslim, so my opinion will always be bias towards another Muslim convert regardless of their motive of conversion.

                    1. re: “when the other spouse refuses to convert, that’s when the trouble begins and leads to divorce”

                      Fair enough. However, the marriage should be dissolved through civil law because the couple married under civil law. In other words, which way in, same way out.

                      Similarly, child custody should be settled by the civil court before the parents part ways because their child was conceived in a civil marriage.

                      I have no theoretical objections if the civil court awards custody to the mualaf woman since the court customary favours the mother in cases of young children.

                      However it appears that the mualaf man uses his Muslim status to grab the children who would otherwise stay with the mom. In all the cases cited — Shamala, Subashini, Indira Gandhi, Deepa and now the latest The Bride’s parents — it is the husband who converted to Islam.

                      So far we’ve not have any public controversies of Hindu women converting and taking their custody battles to the Syariah Court.

  4. Well let the Indians do what they have done best throughout their history of settlement in Malaysia. Fight each other and make bad decisions simply because they wish to cut their noses to spite their faces.

    As long as the Chinese want someone to carry their buckets for them there will not be a shortage of Indians willing to do it “in the name of democracy” and a “principle” of course.

  5. Shuzheng has pointed out years ago when iGuana Eng and family were quiet as a mouse when a chinese girl was taken away from school by her freshly converted mum, accompanied by ‘officials’ with guns no less. newly converts are above the law just like recent cases.

    1. So have I, back in August 2011. The Chinese girl’s case was a cross border kidnapping between two Pakatan states, Penang and Selangor. See, https://helenang.wordpress.com/2011/08/20/butir-butir-kes-murtad-di-pulau-pinang/

      For years, the DAP has kept quiet and not spoken up for religious minorities who are Buddhists and Hindus. But if the Chinese and Indians are determined to keep supporting the Christian party, then let them lah.

      After all, they belong to the 60 percent “clever” Pakatan voters in S’gor compared to 40 percent “stupid” BN supporters, and 67.5 percent “clever” Pakatan voters in Penang compared to 32.5 percent “stupid” BN supporters.

  6. Setakat yang diketahui, UIA tak pernah banjir.. selepas dr m. beri premier lecture di UiA dan memperkecilkan tindakan Jais dengan menyuruh mengaji balik.. petang terus banjir.. itu baru banjir..

    1. Ke situ pulak ko ni. Itu hujan rahmat la dol. next time suh tun m balun jais kat kawasan tadahan lak, gerenti penuh dams kat selangok

      1. i agree, itu hujan rahmat. Tun is a good muslim, even the Arab respect him. Only the ungrateful will criticise him. That maxime is the ungrateful and doesn’t deserve the rahmat fr the almighty.

        1. Haha, I know. But always checking your website from time to time. Actually got married last year and been juggling as a wife and as mommy-to-be ;p

          Keep on writing Helen!

  7. For me, it’s bad enough that JAIS intercepted the woman on her wedding day. What’s worse is that they had the audacity to walk into a Hindu temple to do it.

    Hinduism has no problem with adherents of other faiths coming into our temples (note that we do NOT proselytize). I have personally given Malay and foreign Muslims guided tours around temples – because they approached me with questions.

    But for JAIS to do so in this manner is an act of utter disrespect and contempt for the sanctity of the temple and the faith.

    Is this not further evidence that the hubris associated with Ketuanan Melayu is now manifest in Ketuanan Islam which now somehow empowers Muslims to intrude uncouthly and insult the dignity of other religious institutions?

    The only words I have to describe this are: Kurang ajar!

    Desecrating a holy place violates the constitution
    http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/264789

    ‘This act clearly violates the sanctity of places of worships even though the person involved is technically a Muslim (?) and there could be proper ways to handle without offending the Hindus who patronise the temple.’

    ‘Therefore, I strongly feel as a senior member of Jais’ management, in carrying out so-called “routine checks” like this, Ahmad Zaki Arshad and his team have been downright insensitive and demeaning to non-Muslims in this country and he should apologise for his enforcement officers raiding the temple.’

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