Posted in Evangeliblis

Isma targetted because they are exposing the evangelista agenda

There are 2.08 billion Muslims in the world.

Wherever the Muslim lives, whether it is in Morocco (99.9% Muslim pop.), in Mauritius (16.6% Muslim pop.) or in Mongolia (4.4% Muslim pop.), each and every one of these 2,080,000,000 Muslims calls his God by no other name than Allah.

If you asked a Swiss in Switzerland, a Swazi in Swaziland, a Thai in Thailand or a Finn in Finland – “What is the name of God in Islam?”, every single one of them will answer “Allah”.

It is only in Malaysia that the “meek and mild”, the small minority of “merely 9 percent” Christians insist that the name of God in Christianity is Allah too.

mosqueMongolia
Mosque in Hohhot, inner Mongolia

In Islam, God is called Allah. Many verses of the Quran say so.

سورة الإخلاص

Say, “He is Allah , [who is] One, Allah , the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

Surah Al-‘Ikhlāş 112: 1-4

سورة البقرة

Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth.

Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 255 [partial quote]

سورة الأعراف

And to Allah belong the best names, so invoke Him by them. And leave [the company of] those who practice deviation concerning His names. They will be recompensed for what they have been doing.

Surah Al-‘A`rāf 7: 180

سورة النساء

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Surah An-Nisā’ 4: 171

سورة يونس

Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. There is no intercessor except after His permission. That is Allah , your Lord, so worship Him. Then will you not remember?

Surah Yūnus 10:3

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, “These are our intercessors with Allah ” Say, “Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?” Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him

Surah Yūnus 10:18

سورة الزمر

Indeed, We have sent down to you the Book, [O Muhammad], in truth. So worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion.

Surah Az-Zumar 39:3

سورة العنكبوت

And if you asked them, “Who sends down rain from the sky and gives life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness?” they would surely say ” Allah .” Say, “Praise to Allah “; but most of them do not reason.

Surah Al-`Ankabūt 29:63

سورة الأنعام

And the polytheists assign to Allah from that which He created of crops and livestock a share and say, “This is for Allah ,” by their claim, ” and this is for our partners [associated with Him].” But what is for their “partners” does not reach Allah , while what is for Allah – this reaches their “partners.” Evil is that which they rule.

Surah Al-‘An`ām 6:136

Source: Sahih International

quran

YHWH, Jehovah, Elohim, Adonai

The original Bible language was Hebrew. In the very first book of the Bible Genesis, God says, “My name is YHWH’ (pronounced Yahweh). ‘YHWH’ is mentioned 6,828 times in the Old Testament. Show me where in the Hebrew Bible is God called Allah?

About three centuries before the birth of Christ, scholars in Alexandria, Egypt translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek for the diaspora Jews. Show me where in the Septuagint (the Greek Bible) is God called Allah?

In the late 4th century, the Bible was translated into Latin and the name of God was vocalised as Jehovah. Show me where in the Vulgate (the Latin Bible) is God called Allah?

Bible book, Exodus 29:46

And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them: I am Jehovah their God.

Another word most often used for God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim and the name occurs 2,570 times in the Old Testament.

BELOW: Gereja Katolik Santa Maria Bonda Allah

GerejaBondaAllah

What do the rabbis say is the name of God?

Text 10-1 Midrash on the Names of God

AND G-D SAID UNTO MOSES (Exodus 3:14): R. Abba b. Mammel said: G-d said to Moses: ‘Thou wishest to know My name. Well, I am called according to My work; sometimes I am called “Almighty G-d”, “Lord of Hosts”, “G-d”, “Lord”. When I am judging created beings, I am called “G-d” (Elohim), and when I am waging war against the wicked, I am called “El Shaddai” (Almighty G-d), and when I am merciful towards My world, I am called “Adonai”, for “Adonai” refers to the Attribute of Mercy, as it is said: The Lord, the Lord (Adonai, Adonai), G-d, merciful and gracious. Hence I am that I am in virtue of My deeds.’ R. Isaac said: G-d said to Moses: ‘Tell them that I am now what I always was and always will be’; for this reason is the word eheyeh written three times. Another explanation of I AM THAT I AM is offered by R. Jacob b. Abina in the name of R. Huna of Sepphoris: G-d said to Moses: ‘Tell them that I will be with them in this servitude, and in servitude will they always continue, but I will be with them!’ Whereupon Moses said to G-d: ‘Shall I tell them this? Is not this sufficient for the hour the evil thereof?’ G-d replied: ‘NO: THUS SHALT THOU SAY UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL: “I AM HATH SENT ME UNTO YOU.” To thee only do I reveal this but not to them.’ Another interpretation of I AM.
.

Source: Explanation of the Tanakh via English translation

Where in the Bible?

Is the word ‘Allah’ used for God in the Gutenberg Bible? In the Tyndale Bible? The Geneva Bible? In the King James Bible? In any English Bible? Where? Where?!

Will the DAP evangelistas please show us any verses in any established Bible where God calls Himself Allah?

religion-and-politics

Respect the laws of Malaysia

DAP evangelistas live in Malaysia and as such they should obey Malaysian laws. The Selangor Enactment of 1988: Non-Islamic Religions (Control Of Propagation Amongst Muslims) prohibits Christians from using lafaz Allah to refer to their God.

A Cabinet decision on 16 May 1986 similarly forbade the use of ‘Allah’ by non-Muslims and this was gazetted in the P.U(A) 15/82 Gazette and S.59/3/6/A KKDN circular on 5 Dec 1986.

Why do the “meek and mild” Christians refuse to abide by the law?

Furthermore, these peace-loving Christians claim themselves so eager to “build bridges”.

Yet they are unable to respect the May 2008 national fatwa that decided ‘Allah’ is exclusive to Muslims. A ruling by the Majlis Fatwa kebangsaan is made with the consent of the Majlis Raja-raja. Why are the Christians going against their state rulers? Why are they so determined to disrupt public order?

A Selangor fatwa gazetted in January 2010 also pronounced: “The word ‘Allah’ is a sacred word exclusive to the religion [of Islam] and cannot be used or made equal to other non-Islamic religions”.

Aren’t the peace-loving Christians always talking about inter-faith RESPECT? Yet it seems that, to them respect is a one-way street and not something mutual since they refuse to respect the law, refuse to respect the wishes of the rulers and refuse to respect the core foundational belief of the Muslim majority.

SaifuddinAbdullahMujahid
Mujahid (kanan), anggota golongan liberal PAS yang ditentang Isma

An issue of faith

The defence of the ‘Allah’ word is about the importance of maqasid behind the name. If the evangelistas are really so very keen to call God ‘Allah’, they should just embrace Islam and then they can recite the name in five daily prayers.

MAIS believes that the evangelistas’ real “intent and purpose is to spread Christianity among Malays”.

MAIS believes that their efforts should be seen as “a propaganda ploy and agenda for the success of the Christianisation movement”.

Isma vice president Ustaz Muhammad Fauzi Asmuni believes that the DAP lodged police reports against their organization because NGO Islam sebelum ini telah menentang agenda Evangelist, agenda golongan liberal, tuntutan IFC, tuntutan Comango dan lain-lain usaha DAP dan sekutunya untuk mengubah perlembagaan negara”.

Related:

Ambiga masuk bakul, Ambiga angkat sendiri

Author:

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90 thoughts on “Isma targetted because they are exposing the evangelista agenda

  1. re..Is the word ‘Allah’ used for God in the Gutenberg Bible? In the Tyndale Bible? The Geneva Bible? In the King James Bible? Where? Where?!

    Y so many version of Bible? Which is the genuine one? And the one used by evangelist Dap, which version is it?

    1. re: “And the one used by evangelist Dap, which version is it?”

      Ask Hannah Banana.

    2. There many sects in Christianity and each sect has its own bible.

      Dapsters I think is in the process of writing up their bible. Correct me Hannah if I am wrong.

      The issue here is basically the Malays are not united and they use the disunity among the malay to make sure that malay will remain that way. The problem that the Malays in power give in to their demands ie ISA, Rayer’s case and others.

      But the same people in power will take the law to the letter in the case of Isma.

      1. re: “But the same people in power will take the law to the letter in the case of Isma.’

        The law puts the Malay special position, the national language, the Malay rulers and the matter of citizenship beyond question.

        After the May 13 race riots, Tun Razak took the precaution of deterring the Chinese from questioning Article 153 and the Malays from questioning the Malaysian citizenship of the Chinese for the sake of preserving peace.

          1. ‘Chinese from questioning Article 153’

            Freedom of speech. Minority rights. Democratic living.

            ‘Malays from questioning the Malaysian citizenship of the Chinese’

            Albeit historical. Seditious.

            Apa lagi Cina mahu?

          2. If I were ISMA President I would be careful with the wording and got the facts and words right. I would do research to support my statements.

            1. He also said the British were “penceroboh”.

              He didn’t say the Indian immigrants were penceroboh though.

                1. The orang asli (Temuan) relocated from the Bukit Lanjan in 2002 to make way for housing development that changed the landscape.

                  1. They are now the proud bungalow owners of Damansara Perdana and most are being employed by the developer themselves, whom among others had build school and other public amenities for the Orang Asli, who had a say (agree or disagree, to say the least) in the development, which is why the very reason MK Land had successfully acquired the land, eyeing by so many others!

                    The Malays on the other hand, were colonized. And, against their will, the British brought more and more of their kinds and cheap labors to help them to loot the country’s resources. The pendatangs don’t came here to build this nation.

                    1. re: “The pendatangs don’t came here to build this nation.”

                      The Chinese are very adamant that without their presence here, Malaya would never have developed. They cite KL and Ipoh as two examples.

                    2. Nope. Perhaps by default. I’d give them that!

                      Its like, when YTL says that the would continue to invest in the country as if they would do it for the sake of the country and not their profit margin. Enough of BS.

                      Abdullah Zaik’s of ISMA was stating historical facts. Perhaps the keturunan pendatangs need to belajar sejarah. Kalau tidak, macam mana nak sedar diri and how to closure, like that? Stop being kiasu la, the Malays are the least berkira lots!

                    3. “Ceroboh” would be what happened in Lahad Datu recently.

                      The Chinese, on the contrary, were invited by Sultan Abu Bakar to come to Johor to plant gambir. They were given Surat Sungai by the Sultan to signify a contract, and the Kapitan-Kapitan Cina were issued Surat Kuasa during the 1850s. How can this be called “pencerobohan”?

                      Before the 19th century, Larut was virtually a No Man’s Land. Long Jaafar (wakil Sultan Perak) opened up the area to the Chinese tin miners. So you see, the Chinese were attracted to go to Larut oleh seorang pembesar Melayu where there had been no significant human settlements before.

                      Same with Penang island. Although it was Kedah’s and there were a sprinkling of Malay kampungs before the arrival of Francis Light, nonetheless the whites and the Chinese were integral in developing the place. And since the Kedah Sultan pajakkan the tanah, and signed it over lawfully, the subsequent influx of immigrants was not a ceroboh, unlike Lahad Datu.

                    4. You can have that version of sejarah Helen, you won’t be the first, I can tell you that!

                      Nama pun semenanjung Tanah Melayu, bila pula jadi No Man’s Land. You have pointed out Johor, Larut (Perak) and Penang, what about the rest of the country, kena ceroboh la kan???

                    5. Come on, don’t putar. I referred “No Man’s Land” specifically to Larut before the 19th century.

                      And secondly, if you have another version of history, then disprove what I wrote above. It’s the standard buku-buku sejarah that said Sultan Abu Bakar gave the Surat Sungai and Surat Kuasa to the Chinese.

                      As for the rest of the country, isn’t it the famous storyline that Sultan Mansur Shah married Puteri Hang Li Poh, and she brought along her retinue who intermarried with the locals? That’s Malacca.

                      Some of the states (Kelantan, Terengganu) really have a negligible number of Chinese as a percentage of the population. The Chinese in those states concentrated in the bandar (KB, KK) and conducted small business. Hardly Lahad Datu.

                    6. Helen, Larut is in Perak, Semenanjung Tanah Melayu. Where got No Man’s Land. That’s all I said.

                      ‘As for the rest of the country, isn’t it the famous storyline that Sultan Mansur Shah married Puteri Hang Li Poh, and she brought along her retinue who intermarried with the locals? That’s Malacca.

                      Some of the states (Kelantan, Terengganu) really have a negligible number of Chinese as a percentage of the population. The Chinese in those states concentrated in the bandar (KB, KK) and conducted small business. Hardly Lahad Datu.’

                      Its not that simple la Helen. But like I said, some of us, subscribe to this and I won’t stop them. Surely, we both know, that’s not the whole story, kan?

                    7. Before the 19th century, the peninsula population was rather sparse. Some areas were not occupied or cleared of jungle.

                      That’s how come by the mid-1940s, Chinese+Indians could suddenly number about the same as Malays+Indonesians leading to Malays fearing that they would be swamped and lose their numerical advantage.

                      null

                    8. Helen, Tanah Melayu, Malaya freed from British was not the year the country was founded, thus Merdeka. This is not a No Man’s Land.

                      That big island, down under, later named Australia, as sparse as it is, was never a No Man’s Land either. Go figure.

                    9. “No Man’s Land” is a general phrase in English and can refer to just any disputed territory or even a barren area. Really, it’s usage is common and you’ll come across the phrase in novels even.

                      You’re thinking the context of the legal term in Latin, terra nullius.

                    10. Islam1st is a case of the brain not working when they make their arguments.

                      The Singapore incident was a swift decision by their police to stem hate crime, even though it is just refuse of service or shoving in public places.

                      The argument here is between pendatang and penceroboh. Sure, my grandfather is a pendatang = a migrant. He got his citizenship in post-independence Malaya. To people like Islam1st, he is a penceroboh = an intruder, just like how some Sarawakians and Sabahans consider orang Semenanjung as penceroboh.

                      Nak kata pendatang tanpa izin pun ada, dengan izin pun ada. Berizin biasanya dibawa untuk berkuli, bukan berjoli. Jangan nafi sejarah, jangan nafi warisan turun-temurun dan tradisi serta adat dan susur-galur serta budaya perkauman kita. Orang kaya dan pembesar Melayu dan tauke Eropah yang bawa masuk buruh murah dari negara Cina dan India, sama seperti tauke-tauke besar 1Malaysia sekarang yang bawa masuk mak Indon dengan pak Bangla – semua nak kembang kocek dirinya aje.

                      Rakyat marhaen and orang biasa memang sentiasa dijajah, bezanya lumrah manusia kalau dicucuk hidungnya oleh orang sendiri dia sanggup. Kalau kaum lain dipanggil penjajah, bangsa sendiri dipanggil pemerintah.

                      However, accepting that my ancestors were migrants does not mean that I will tolerate anyone calling me a pendatang or a penceroboh. Just like how I recognize some of my fellow Malaysians has Javanese ancestry or Thai blood or angmoh lineage (daulat tuanku), I am Malaysian. I was born in Malaysia and I’ll be damned if I let some moron call me a pendatang just because he thinks being brown makes him special (which incidentally could be either a good special or a bad special, if you know what istimewa means).

                      This is a great country because the majority feels insecure and their insecurity is protected under the Constitution. The minority is also protected under the Constitution. This is the amazing thing about the Constitution of Malaysia, it allows insecure people feel safe from each other. Trouble happens when insecure people feel threatened, whether they are Chinese, Malay or Indian. Insecure people who feel threaten do a lot of crazy things, you know.

                    11. ‘Insecure people who feel threaten do a lot of crazy things, you know.’

                      I know and history is what it is. There’s nothing we can do to change it. No matter how insecure we felt about it.

                      So tell me what are you so insecure about?

                    12. Go ahead and give whatever label to any community in Msia. Pendatang, penceroboh etc etc. In politics, you need more headcount to be the majority. One person one vote. But in economics and business, you don’t. One business owner equals to hundreds of ordinary Malaysians.

                      None of non-Malays were forcefully evicted from Msia so far as the law protects them. Except those that willingly abandon their citizenship. But the people who has been shouting ‘pendatang’ has been charged (Zaik) and lost in elections (Ibrahim Ali).

                      My point: The non-Malays will continue to stay and prosper in Msia irrespective of the ‘pendatang or penceroboh’ labels. They will continue to be ahead of the average majority in many aspects.

    1. The Christians are a minority in law enforcement — court officials (judges, public prosecutors), police, army.

      So how did this small 9 percent successfully manage to place themselves above the law?

      1. Simple Helen….. the GOMEN so lembikkkkkkk.

        KALAU GOMEN means business … semua akan limit themselves to the law….. Dan negara pun AMAN.

              1. I prefer the proper written words rather the pronunciation. KJ uses the pronunciation.

  2. The evangelistas are real moron, u should know that after so many translations, all the bibles is not the original words of God anymore, real stupid.

    Jesus said “indeed I have raised the dead, but I cannot cure the stupid”.

    As I hv quoted Nietzsche before ” there is only one Christain, and he died on the cross” the rest are just fake, the followers of St Paul.

    1. re: “Jesus said ‘indeed I have raised the dead, but I cannot cure the stupid’.”

      Can please point out which Bible verse he said that?

  3. Thanks MsHelen. You made it clear to the Non Muslim. Are you writing this ? May Allah SWT bless you ( beri rahmat ). Thats how Islam give an appreciation.

    In Islam its not your own words. So our Prophet Muhammad SAW. They came from Allah SWT.

    To blame Malays, especially ISMA these evangelistas really made a damn mistake ! Islam is no enemy to anyone unless somebody starts the hatred…

    This coming Ramadhan, just share the spirit of it. How you exprience the pains and sufferableneses of the paupers.. no harm trying..

    1. ‘pains and sufferableneses of the paupers’

      bulan ramadan, the paupers pun kena posa. no exception unless tak berkemampuan.

  4. Malay Muslim or Muslim in Malaysia IQ is now being challenged as though they cant differentiate between AL Kitab with a cross symbol ‘stubbornly’ uses the word ‘Allah’ for their Lord? God? orJesus?

    O man I’m confused with this al kitab, God is God, Lord is God and Jesus is God Son and not ‘daughter’? Anyway, ‘Allah’ man created controversy is not a RELIGION issues but its a Man Mad Law issue which was supposed to be respected.

    Its stated in Selangor that the word ‘ALLAH’ is prohibited to be used other than in Islam. Simple. Christian Al Kitab wishes to use the word Allah than change the Selangor law first. PR is in POWER and Hannah Yeoh a pure and truly Christian is the speaker.

  5. “Mujahid, anggota golongan liberal PAS yang ditentang Isma”

    This man may play-act in front of the Triune God and its professors, but the angels of Lord Allah are recording his every thought, word and deed.

      1. The All-Knowing One is cognizant of the inside and the outside of The Malaysian Insider people, and the insides and outsides of their adherents.

  6. Thanks Helen, a good piece of posting and I do hope and pray will enlighten many confused people, Muslims included.

  7. Hai yoh, Helen. You are now looking for trouble with the Ibans Christians, Sikhs, Bahais who called their God “Allah” also.

    You focus so much on the DAP evengelistas, you forget there are other people of other faiths and religions in Malaysia.

    So, when is MAIS and JAIS going to seize the holy books of the Sikhs and Bahais? Or is there other political motives just to go after the Christians?

    Lu jaga belakang bila orang Benggali marah, tau?

    1. Dandy,

      You are a batu api (just like Lim Guan Eng) to drag the holy book of the Sikhs into the picture when the Islamic authorities have never disturbed the Punjabis.

      As for the Iban and other native Christians, they have the 10-Point Agreement and furthermore, MAIS has jurisdiction over Selangor only, not East Malaysia. Those who worship in Sabah and Sarawak are not being disturbed.

      re: “you forget there are other people of other faiths and religions in Malaysia”

      On the contrary, it is you who forget. The Christians claim themselves to be less than 10 percent of the population. With all their aggression and hostility, and the trouble they are causing, clearly it is the Christians who forget that 90 percent of the rest of Malaysians don’t share their faith.

      1. ‘With all their aggression and hostility, and the trouble they are causing, clearly it is the Christians who forget that 90 percent of the rest of Malaysians don’t share their faith.’

        And why are we letting these 10% dictate our peaceful living again? Why can’t the rest of the non Muslims, takkan Helen sorang je kut, say something?

        1. Nak kata apa lagi Islam 1st? Simply GEDIK… thts exactly what they are..

          I can clearly say these people memang selama ni tak pernah bercampur dgn Melayu or oghang Islam.. Jadi dok tengah kekok nak adjust diri mereka.

          Being brought up to think they are the smartest species, the richest and suddenly to realise itu sekadar hayalan or donggeng semata2.

          Bila terpaksa melalui self denial, jiwa bergelora dan merontak2.

          Tembam, converted just recently and baru bau pangkat dan gaji melonjak berganda2. She needs to read more self help books to help her inner self to adjust POSITIVELY to the new things suddenly happening in her life.

          Tapi dok tengah perasan dan rasa megah diri sampai terlupa daratan.

      2. “holy book of the Sikhs”

        So, you agree that bibles shall be seized despite the holy book of the Sikhs also contain the word Allah? Isn’t the Selangor enactment imposes blanket ban?

        “MAIS has jurisdiction over Selangor only, not East Malaysia.”

        Isn’t some of the seized bibles were meant to be distributed in Sabah/Sarawak? At least MAIS should return these bibles. Looks like a state agency like MAIS has override the cabinet’s 10 point agreement.

        “clearly it is the Christians who forget that 90 percent of the rest of Malaysians don’t share their faith.”

        How many non-Muslims converted to Islam every year as oppose to Muslims renouncing Islam and convert to non-Islamic religion?

        1. re: “So, you agree that bibles shall be seized despite the holy book of the Sikhs also contain the word Allah?”

          Why don’t you show us where in the scriptures of the Sikh the word ‘Allah’ (??) purportedly appears so that we may examine the context?

          I’m not the best person to explain this (perhaps the Muslim readers will help out) but apparently the word for deity is “ilah”.

          As a secondary issue, is the God of the Sikhs the One Creator or is He 3-in-1 like our Malaysian Christians would have Him, “in the name of Allah the Father, Allah the Son and Allah the Holy Ghost”?

          re: “Isn’t the Selangor enactment imposes blanket ban?”

          You have to ask MAIS whether they would loosen the interpretation to include the Unitarian Christians whose God belongs to the People of the Book.

          re: “Isn’t some of the seized bibles were meant to be distributed in Sabah/Sarawak?”

          Is there any proof that it is? Like bill of sale?

          re: “Looks like a state agency like MAIS has override the cabinet’s 10 point agreement.”

          Then import the Bibles through Kuching lah.

          re: “How many non-Muslims converted to Islam every year as oppose to Muslims renouncing Islam and convert to non-Islamic religion?”

          If you think the restrictive law is unfair, then amend the FedCon. As a first step, abolish the 1988 Enactment since Pakatan has a four-fifths (way exceeding the 2/3 majority required) representation in the Selangor state assembly.

          1. re: I’m not the best person to explain this (perhaps the Muslim readers will help out) but apparently the word for deity is “ilah”.

            Perhaps this link can give some info:-

            http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2014/01/13/allah-ban-applies-to-all-including-sikhs/

            re: You have to ask MAIS whether they would loosen the interpretation to include the Unitarian Christians whose God belongs to the People of the Book.

            Again, the same link above will explain.

            re: Is there any proof that it is? Like bill of sale?

            Sorry. No proof. But some of the seized bibles were in the Iban language.

            re: Then import the Bibles through Kuching lah.

            This is one of the solution. What if an Iban wants to travel to Selangor to find employment and bring along the bible? The bible becomes illegal here but not in Sarawak. We have many non-English speakers of Sabah/Sarawak bumis that reside in Selangor. Isn’t this a breach of freedom of religion despite no proof of proselytisation?

            re: If you think the restrictive law is unfair, then amend the FedCon. As a first step, abolish the 1988 Enactment since Pakatan has a four-fifths (way exceeding the 2/3 majority required) representation in the Selangor state assembly.

            I think the enactment has nothing wrong. It was enacted based on the spirit of the FedCon, i.e. prohibition against proselytisation. FedCon does not spell out on how to do so. Up to the respective state to enact its own state laws. Selangor imposed prohibition of certain words in the enactment. In order for such prohibition to be valid, proselytisation must be proven. This is the basis of the AG in not pursuing charges against BSM. No proof of proselytisation.

            1. (1) re: the link you provided

              (a) The FMT article says that “Malaysian Gurdwara Council president Jagir Singh declined to comment”. So we are not enlightened.

              The Sikh holy book is written in Punjabi. There are claims that the “Allah” word occurs in the book but then again, these claims come from the “opposition” (generally speaking) and as we’ve seen the opposition’s assessment of things is really screwed up — like their belief how Lynas is life-threatening but air lombong in the Selangor water supply is not.

              If you want to make a case, then you have to provide the relevant verses from the Sikh scriptures like I’ve reproduced the relevant verses from the Quran / Bible above so that we can dissect. As it stands, we’re talking about something in the Punjabi language vis-a-vis allegations made by a bunch of Pakatan troublemakers out to aggravate in order to score political points.

              And to appraise the Sikh holy book, we need the input of scholars of the religion as well as linguists because it is in Punjabi (not English, not BM) and we need the context, cf the differentiation between “Allah” and “ilah” in Arabic usage as well as other matters of the intricacies of grammar, e.g.


              “Adonai is the plural of Adon, meaning ‘Lord, Lord, LORD, master, or owner’ (the word Adon derives from a Ugaritic word meaning ‘lord’ or ‘father’). In the Tanakh, the word Adon can refer to men and angels as well as to the LORD God of Israel (e.g., Exodus 34:23). God is called the “Lord of lords”(Deuteronomy 10:17) and Psalm 8:1 mentions God as “YHVH our Lord.”

              The plural form Adonai, like the plural form Elohim, is regularly used with singular verbs and modifiers, so it is best to construe the Name as an ’emphatic plural’ or ‘plural of majesty’.” When the plural is formed using a singular possessive ending (‘my Lords’), it always refers to God, and occurs over 300 times in the Tanakh in this form.”

              http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Adonai/adonai.html

              Language use for singular-plural can be complicated. I wouldn’t put it past the possibility that some opportunists are just trying to drag the Sikhs into the ‘Allah’ quagmire just for their own selfish political capital, as Lim Guan Eng had tried to do with the Buddhists through his Wesak Day message.

              The bottomline is that the Islamic authorities here have not confiscated any Sikh holy books and the Muslim authorities have not organized any seminar on the Threat of Sikhism.

              (2) The same link you provided does not elucidate.

              Like I said, JAIS/MAIS have not taken any action against the Sikhs thus far. Is Selangor state exco for Islamic affairs, Sallehin Mukhyi, who was quoted by FMT a member of MAIS?

              (3) re: “speakers of Sabah/Sarawak bumis that reside in Selangor” who bring their ‘Allah’ Bibles with them to the peninsula

              That’s possession at individual level. Are the Christians fear-mongering and inciting hatred to suggest that JAIS will raid private homes to grab the Bibles?

              (4) Your wrote: “Isn’t some of the seized bibles were meant to be distributed in Sabah/Sarawak?”/ I replied: “Is there any proof that it is? Like bill of sale?” / You responded: “Sorry. No proof. But some of the seized bibles were in the Iban language.”

              I believe the 10-point solution pertains to location, i.e. Sabah & Sarawak, and not to language medium, i.e. some of bibles seized by JAIS in Selangor were in the Iban language. For the moment until something more definitive is able to be worked out, the 10-point solution is the temporary measure and since the Christian Sabahans and Sarawakians in the majority reside in Sabah and Sarawak (and not in Jerusubang), it’s the best partial accommodation for all parties.

              (5) re: “I think the enactment has nothing wrong. It was enacted based on the spirit of the FedCon, i.e. prohibition against proselytisation.”

              The enactment specifies the list of words which the FedCon did not. While I agree that Allah should be exclusive to Muslims, I don’t agree that words like “iman”, “wali”, “nabi” should be proscribed for non Muslims because they’ve already come to be used as common nouns.

              (6) re: “In order for such prohibition to be valid, proselytisation must be proven. This is the basis of the AG in not pursuing charges against BSM. No proof of proselytisation.”

              That’s how Prof Shad Saleem Faruqi reads it (Article 11) and I’m inclined to agree with your interpretation of the AG’s decision.

              However for the Muslim NGOs, the core issue remains the challenge posed by the Christian evangelista doctrine to the very essence of Tauhid.

              The Christian evangelistas are insisting that God is Three, God is a Father and has a Son, Jesus was born of a virgin woman, he has a mother (Mary) and a father (God) but his mother and father are not married to each other, he was killed and came back to life after 3 days, he is the Son of God and was a human being who performed miracles on earth like dividing 5 loaves and 2 fish into enough food to feed a crowd of 5,000 people but then Jesus later became fully divine (although he must have been semi-divine earlier because he could perform all those miracles) and now as we speak he is living in heaven with his Father and presumably his mother too (c.f. the Lord’s Prayer: “Our Father who art/lives in heaven hallowed be thy name …”), and this eventual Trinity divinity is a merged entity of Father and Son glued together by the Holy Ghost, and if sinners believe in Him (i.e. Jesus, but the Holy Ghost and the ‘Father’ are two separate matters because the Jews and the Muslims also believe in the same “Lord God” but unlike Christians, the Jews and the Muslims are not “saved” because they have not been born again in Christ in order to cleanse them of their their original sin).

              The above sums up what the Christians believe. And the evangelistas are saying their God is ‘Allah’ too and the very same deity as that worshipped by the Muslims.

              If you were a Muslim, wouldn’t you think that the Christians who demand equal use of lafaz ‘Allah’ are subverting Islam?

              1. Thanks for the long reply.

                re: If you want to make a case, then you have to provide the relevant verses from the Sikh scriptures like I’ve reproduced the relevant verses from the Quran / Bible above so that we can dissect.

                Sorry. I am not an expert to comment on the Sikh holly books. I can only rely on Internet links to say that the word Allah does appear in the holy book of Sikhs.

                http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/sikhs-will-use-allah-as-it-is-in-their-holy-scriptures-says-gurdwara-counci

                re: That’s possession at individual level. Are the Christians fear-mongering and inciting hatred to suggest that JAIS will raid private homes to grab the Bibles?

                As far as I understand, the Selangor Enactment 1988 does not differentiate between group and individual possession of bibles that contain the word Allah.

                re: However for the Muslim NGOs, the core issue remains the challenge posed by the Christian evangelista doctrine to the very essence of Tauhid.

                Which one shall prevail? The law (i.e. the AG) or the pressure of the Muslims NGO/JAIS? Remember separation of powers. JAIS investigates, AG prosecutes and Court will adjudicate and punish in the event of conviction.

                re: If you were a Muslim, wouldn’t you think that the Christians who demand equal use of lafaz ‘Allah’ are subverting Islam?

                I am not a Muslim. Can’t comment. From the legal point of view, if the use of the word Allah in bibles is not abused to proselytise Muslims it is not illegal. He who alleges must prove. The burden is on the Muslims to prove proselytisation beyond reasonable doubt. Muslims are trying to use the flimsy argument of ‘confusing the akidah’ to prove the same. Is this sufficient?

                1. re: “I can only rely on Internet links to say that the word Allah does appear in the holy book of Sikhs.”

                  Aiyoyo!!! http://www.themalaysianinsider.com is notorious for their spin. Remember, they had to issue four apologies, incl. one to the Tun, all in a single week for their lies and misrepresentation. They had to publish half page apologies to Tajuddin Ramlin in the mainstream papers, and currently one PAS Selangor leader who claims his words on the kick-out-Khalid issue were twisted is now mulling to sue. I would take whatever comes out of TMI with a bucket of salt.

                  re: “As far as I understand, the Selangor Enactment 1988 does not differentiate between group and individual possession of bibles that contain the word Allah.”

                  But kicking down doors of private Christian homes is not something that has happened as yet. Mala fide of the Christians – not referring to you – to over-reach in their projections of what JAIS will do.

                  re: “Which one shall prevail? The law (i.e. the AG) or the pressure of the Muslims NGO/JAIS? Remember separation of powers. JAIS investigates, AG prosecutes and Court will adjudicate and punish in the event of conviction.”

                  Probably the Muslim NGOs because it is not Dr Mahathir who is in charge but Najib who has the Dapster Khairy types riding on his back.

                  re: “From the legal point of view, if the use of the word Allah in bibles is not abused to proselytise Muslims it is not illegal.”

                  That is vis-a-vis the intent of Article 11. However, Selangor Enactment 1988 as a standalone appears to criminalize the use of the list of words without even having to link usage to proselytization.

                  re: “Muslims are trying to use the flimsy argument of ‘confusing the akidah’ to prove the same. Is this sufficient?”

                  It is not the Muslims who are “easily confused” as the Christians are saying. The crux of the issue is the encroachment by the Malaysian evangelistas into the ‘Allah’ domain as it is unanimously understood by 2.08 billion Muslims worldwide.

                  The Christians are too much already. ‘Allah’ has a specific understanding, i.e. tauhid. The Malaysian evangelistas are imposing two additional entities (Son and Holy Ghost) onto ‘Allah’ which the God of Islam does not possess.

                  This act by the Christians akan mengundang jihad.

                  1. re: Aiyoyo!!! http://www.themalaysianinsider.com is notorious……………

                    Malaysia Insider is reporting what Jaghir Singh said. Karpal Singh once said that the word Allah appears 37 times in the Sikh holy book. Even the Selangor exco in charge of Islamic affairs has said that the Allah ban applies to Sikh. So far, no one has denied the existence of the word Allah in Sikh holy book.

                    re: But kicking down doors of private Christian homes is not something that has happened as yet.

                    No doubt it has not happen. But looking at the BSM raid, JAIS can actually do so on individual homes. After all, possessing one bible containing the word Allah is the same as possessing few hundred copies as far as the Enactment is concern.

                    re: That is vis-a-vis the intent of Article 11. However, Selangor Enactment 1988 as a standalone appears to criminalize the use of the list of words without even having to link usage to proselytization.

                    The enactment is derived from the Art. 11 of FedCon. It cannot go beyond that. We can differentiate the wording of the Enactment and the enforcement. No doubt the wording imposed blanket prohibition irrespective of the element of proselytisation. But the enforcement, i.e. the seizure of the BSM bibles has no such element. Hence, the AG’s decision not to charge BSM.

                    1. re: “Malaysia Insider is reporting what Jaghir Singh said.”

                      TMI is infamous for deliberately twists what people say in order to push its political agenda. Hence the many complaints, the portal’s formal apologies to the victims and like I said earlier, the latest case is the PAS S’gor leader who is mulling to sue the portal for its story (mis)quoting him wrt the purported movement to oust MB Khalid.

                      re: “Karpal Singh once said that the word Allah appears 37 times in the Sikh holy book.”

                      He is legendary for saying “over my dead body”. Can you pls quote some other Punjabi who’s more neutral and pls don’t cite FMT columnist Jeswan Kaur, ok.

                      re: “Even the Selangor exco in charge of Islamic affairs has said that the Allah ban applies to Sikh.”

                      But so far in the BSM business, this exco’s word carries no weight. The Sultan and MAIS are the chief decision makers.

                      re: “So far, no one has denied the existence of the word Allah in Sikh holy book.”

                      Like I said, just cite the relevant verses. If I can do so for the Quran, there’s no reason you can’t for the Sikh holy book since you’re so insistent in your assertion.

                      re: “But kicking down doors of private Christian homes is not something that has happened as yet.” / “No doubt it has not happen. But looking at the BSM raid, JAIS can actually do so on individual homes.”

                      You are being berburuk sangka. The Christians are giving the most exaggerated reactions. It’s part of the reason the Muslims become less and less inclined to bertolak ansur.

                      re: “The enactment is derived from the Art. 11 of FedCon. It cannot go beyond that.”

                      Then the 44 Pakatan Aduns in the 56-seat state assembly should challenge the constitutionality of Enactment 1988. After all, they have a 4/5 majority in the House.

                      re: “We can differentiate the wording of the Enactment and the enforcement. No doubt the wording imposed blanket prohibition irrespective of the element of proselytisation. But the enforcement, i.e. the seizure of the BSM bibles has no such element.”

                      The enforcers are JAIS officials. The fact that they actually seized the 321 Bibles means that they interpreted the Selangor law as empowering them to execute the blanket prohibition.

                    2. Dr. Zakir Naik:

                      http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/Aior.htm

                      Can’t find how many times the word ‘Allah’ appear in Sikh holy book.

                      BTW, the latest decision of the Federal Court in upholding the decision of the Court of Appeal indicates that the executive (i.e. the home minister) vide his ministerial instructions may prohibit the word Allah from being used in any material irrespective of whether or not there is any element of proselytisation as provided by Art. 11 of the FedCon. By larger implication, JAIS (executive body) is now empowered to seize the BSM bibles under the Selangor enactment 1988 irrespective of any proselytisation. It is now a strict liability offense. No need to prove proselytisation at all. The FedCon provides for freedom of religion and this freedom may be curtailed in the context of preventing proselytisation of Muslims. What is the point of Art. 11 now?

                    3. I would support more freedoms. I’m actually a liberal.

                      It is DAP that is illiberal, c.f. Guan Eng’s “you dare you print lah and you see what I do to you!” and his administration’s ban on TV3, NST and Utusan reporters from covering Penang state functions.

                      It is the Pakatan supporters who are illiberal. They boast that Guan Eng, by virtue of winning his libel suits against Utusan, has vindicated himself and the guilty finding proves that the “Umno-owned” paper is defamatory.

                      But when Najib wants to sue Malaysiakini (and he didn’t resort to using Sedition Act or MCMC Act, mind you) in his personal capacity, they turn around and say public officials

                      “should accept such adverse comments, no matter how vitriolic, obnoxious or untrue, as natural hazards of putting themselves forth into public political life, so long as it does not affect the person in his or her private sphere”.– Christopher Leong’s statement on behalf of the Bar Council

                      These kind of double standards people cannot be reasoned with. Bagi betis, nak peha lepas tu nak pijak kepala.

                      They are now being treated without the bersangka baik (viz. the proof of intent to proselytize) any longer because they themselves have been wantonly abusing the freedoms that we have.

                      Freedom comes with responsibility and self-restraint. You can see from the public reaction to the judgment that these people are patently lacking in both.

  8. Do you Moslems in Malaysia know that there are also Hindu and Taoists deities similarly called by the name of “Alah” and Jesus (Ya Soh). It’s because Hindus and Taiosts believe in every God whether it belongs to Christians or Moslems or whatever religion.

    Where’s the freedom of religion to not call their deities in any name eg . Na tuk Kong, tua Pek Kong, Kuan Yin, Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tze, Tai sent yeh , ya Soh, Alah and a thousand other names? The only thing is that these deities are seldom being prayed to or statues made due to sensitivities to other religions who don’t believe in sharing their Gods.

    So how? Now you also know the secret of other religions today and what next? Raid their temples and seize their scriptures? Unfortunately, it going to take a long time since the language written is not in Bahasa Melayu and I doubt any MAIS or JAIS knows any other language except Bahasa Arab and BM. Google translator also won’t have yet.

    1. Jangan jadi batu api yang melampau, mahu mengheret pula penganut Hindu and pengikut Tao masuk persengketaan yang Kristian sengaja wujudkan dengan Muslim.

      re: “Raid their temples and seize their scriptures?”

      You are a penghasut, just like Guan Eng.

    2. Dandy hang doksah duk merapu sini.. No need to putar belit cara tu dah lapok as the whole world dah kenal sangat cara hidup hangpa.

      There are as Helen quoted up there, over 2b Musims around the world.

      We pray 5times a day.

      The number of times the name “ALLAH” is being mentioned daily by Muslims tak terbilang jumlahnya.

      It is not merely a written word in books…

    3. Dandy, if you’re a Sarawakian you should know that God in Iban dialect is “petara”. Never before Allah is used in their prayer not until Alkitab in Bahasa Indonesia was introduced (since?). Care to elaborate?

  9. Is not MAIS and JAIS worried that the Sikhs, Taiosts, Hindus, Bahais will also try to convert Moslems to their religion?

    Why go after the Christians only?

    All are considered a serious threat to the Moslems in Semenanjung Tanah Melayu.

    To be fair to the Christians, MAIS and JAIS should also raid and seize all the other religious books and scriptures in all the temples and holy places.

    So why is implementation of the the shariah law one sided in Malaysia?

    1. Obviously the Sikhs, Taiosts, Hindus, Bahais are not converting the Malays.

      As to why the enforcement has been only against the Christians, don’t think just because you’re in denial that the rest of the country must be similarly addicted to holy water too so that they can’t think.

    2. Dandy…are you dumb or what?

      Taoists, Sikhs, Bahais, Buddhists and Hindus are civilized, law abiding people. They appreaciate peace and harmony in this country and they are humble. They don’t proselityze among Muslims, they don’t don’t print their holy books and religious materials in BM, they don’t deceive Muslims into converting to their religions and vis-a-vis Muslims they have no malicious intent, not like you kurang ajar, dumb, rotten and filthy hearted Christians.

      Those people acknowledge the oneness of God, only that they have a drawn a blank when trying to conclude or figure out who God is. Personally, I do not object to their referring to God as Allah because they refer to the one and only God, no blasphemy, no sacrilege here. When they speak of God, they treat God as a Godly or divine Being, unlike you Christians, ascribing human attributes to Him.

      And you Christians are not even sure who God is. Initially God is God but later His “son” Jesus usurped Him and becomes God himself. Not only that, you Christians also claim Jesus died on the cross to cleanse man of the original sin. God dies? And you worship a dead man? Have you any brain at all? With all your logic defying beliefs, you have to gall to call others to your fake religion? Dengan penuh sombong dan takbur pulak tu.

      Please keep your religion to yourselves! You are taking people from light to darkness!

      We Muslims are guided by Prophet Muhammad [saw] about God and therefore have no doubt about Godhood. The Hindus, even though worshipping multiple deities, believe in one supreme God. Those deities, they believe are just intercessors.

    3. Dandy,

      It is DAP politicians who use the word “allah” in order to incite the Christians to hate BN( meaning UMNO).

      And this is made possible as they have the support of Anwar Ibrahim who is ever willing to destroy everything under the sun in order to be the PM. And no thanks too to Munafiks in PAS.

      It is very simple actually. Christians refuse to see that they are the one creating issue out of nothing. Why the insistence on using “allah” when nothing in Bible in all languages have the word.

  10. Apa pasal, sudah tahu lu olang buat salah kan, brader?

    ‘A constitutional lawyer has criticised the Selangor government for its stand in getting a court order before releasing the Bibles seized from the Bible Society of Malaysia, saying that it was “wrong and irresponsible”.’

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/dont-drag-the-courts-into-bible-issue-says-constitutional-lawyer

    Undang-undang sudah dilanggar, maa, pergi court lor!!! Pakiam tak ajar lu olang ker?

    1. Tommy Thomas making such a remark i.e. since JAIS was exercising its executive powers, it must withdraw its action without the aggrieved party having to seek redress from the court? He does not even sound like a lawyer. Isn’t the duty of the court to check the excesses of the executives except when there is a legal provision expressly ousting any interference from the court?

      THBSM clearly has violated the constitution and the Selangor Enactment and JAIS has done the right thing. In fact, JAIS should ahve burned those confiscated bibles immediately. Thomas knows it but TMI, being the satanic mouthpiece of the evangelists could be the real culprit, misquoting Thomas. Otherwise Tommy Thomas needs to go back to law school

      1. re: “TMI, being the satanic mouthpiece of the evangelists could be the real culprit, misquoting Thomas”

        Most recently, Selangor PAS denies rejecting MB Khalid, mulls suing The Malaysian Insider on its editorial

        http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/selangor-pas-denies-rejecting-mb-khalid-mulls-suing-news-portal

        I agree with you Idris. Slick, smooth operator TMI is really a nasty piece of goods. It created a record of sorts when it had to apologize four times in a single week, including to the Tun, for its lies and misrepresentation.

        Yet the Pakatan supporters lap up every word spewed by the portal as if it were the gospel truth.

        1. ‘Yet the Pakatan supporters lap up every word spewed by the portal as if it were the gospel truth.’

          What to do, the commentators punya otak I believed tak sampai 70!

      2. ‘Isn’t the duty of the court to check the excesses of the executives except when there is a legal provision expressly ousting any interference from the court?’

        Exactly. Perhaps the Christian Extremists know that they are in wrong. Thus this and BSM ‘forgiving’ JAIS and not taking them to court. Otherwise they would have gone the Pakiam way!

  11. To you your religion, and to me mine. Just don’t force it upon others or try to politicize it to show which is more correct or superior.

    History has proven there is no end to wars created by religions espeicially among the Moslems and Christians.

    There is a deep hidden seated intention always among all those shouting their loudest about protecting their believers and religion.

    The pitiful part in all those thousands of years war is that only those dumb foot soldiers and believers died believing their loudhailer leaders instead of believing in their God.

    1. Re To you your religion, and to me mine. Just don’t force it upon others or try to politicize it to show which is more correct or superior.

      And the evangelists are busy hoisting their religion upon the Chinese and Indians and upon their conversion, the new converts disparage their former religions at the urging of the church people. Talk about respect yet it is your people who are busy desecrating the social fabric of this country.

      Re History has proven there is no end to wars created by religions espeicially among the Moslems and Christians.

      Ironically the Christians were the ones who colonized the majority of the world from 1500 AD to 1900 AD and in the process, destroying the ancient civilizations of the Mayans and Incas, not to mention the countless tribes in the Americas, Africa and Oceania that have since been relegated to minority status in their own countries both politically, socially and economically. Not to mentioned, Christians also started 2 world wars that decimated tens of millions of people across the globe. Lest you forget, there is the Holocaust and the 6 million Jews who perished in Europe.

      Re There is a deep hidden seated intention always among all those shouting their loudest about protecting their believers and religion.

      Are you referring to yourself here ? Always here to start a fire.

      Re The pitiful part in all those thousands of years war is that only those dumb foot soldiers and believers died believing their loudhailer leaders instead of believing in their God.

      Again are you referring to yourself here ?

    1. The Hebrew Bible was the earliest.

      In what language was the Bible first written?

      “During the thousand years of its composition, almost the entire Old Testament was written in Hebrew. But a few chapters in the prophecies of Ezra and Daniel and one verse in Jeremiah were written in a language called Aramaic. This language became very popular in the ancient world and actually displaced many other languages. Aramaic even became the common language spoken in Israel in Jesus’ time, and it was likely the language He spoke day by day. Some Aramaic words were even used by the Gospel writers in the New Testament.”

      http://www.biblica.com/en-us/bible/bible-faqs/in-what-language-was-the-bible-first-written/

    1. The writer is director of DAP political education bureau in Zairil’s Penang Parliament. Also a member of Aliran.

  12. Don’t manipulate the issue, it’s neither the BN nor the Muslims is regilating the Christian Bible, for none has ever touch or disturb the Christian Bible !

    It’s the Catholics Evangelista here that’s manupilating the Islamic word ALLAH for God, in their MALAY TRANSLATED BIBLE, especially in Clause 17 and 18, that equat ALLAH to Jesus, and JESUS AS SON OF ALLAH AND THE HOLY TRINITY that is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, that’s detrimental to the religious sanctity of Islam !!

  13. The Christian evangalistas in Malaysia are the weirdiest people on earth. In Malaysian street parlance, in trying to undermine the Muslims here, these Christians have heads yang sudah masuk air.

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