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Was MAS plane flying over warzone to cut fuel cost?

A shorter route uses less fuel and thus saving Malaysia Airlines money. But MH17 was flying over a restricted zone.

Since April, the commercial aircraft of British, European and American operators were already warned that the Ukrainian airspace over the Crimea region is dangerous.

See full story in Daily Mail (summary below).

Was MH17 flying through warzone to save fuel
Daily Mail info box

A sign from the sky?

Even the war-torn Iraq, Syria, Somalia and Sudan have not had their planes – whether passenger or military – fall from the sky like this.

Out of all the countries in the world, only Malaysia Airlines has been struck by two such massive air tragedies within such a short span of time, i.e. MH370 where 239 people are presumed dead and MH17 with its 298 passengers and crew.

The MAS crashes are the only two major commercial airliner crashes in the world this year.

MH17logo

Two MH crashes, 537 dead / around the world 15 crashes, 222 dead

Other plane crashes this year have mostly involved small passenger aircraft like Cessna and Fokker which recorded less than a dozen fatalities each, and the air forces of Algeria, Laos and Ukraine — none of which exceeded two digits in fatalities.

From January 2014 until present (including MH17), there have been some one-and-a-half dozen air crashes around the world. The civilian casualties were 2 or 3, or 4-8 dead. See full list in previous posting.

Altogether 222 people died from a total of 15 air crashes (excluding MAS planes) this year.

The two crashes by Malaysia Airlines alone have cost 537 lives.

Is there something troubling Malaysia’s moral compass?

(242 words)

YET MORE CHRISTIAN PRAYER: Hannah Yeoh  #prayformalaysia #MH17

Hannah Yeoh (hannahyeoh) on Twitter 2014-07-18 10-36-48

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Nik Aziz memetik Quran tentang bangsa-bangsa dilaknati Allah

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111 thoughts on “Was MAS plane flying over warzone to cut fuel cost?

  1. “Other planes shown steering well clear of disrupted areas” after MH17 was shot down.. not before… ICAO has confirmed that there was no restriction to fly over the area and the pathway chosen by MH17 is a normal route… and it flies with a safe altitude of 33,000 feet.. Only now that all airplanes are diverting.. Why Daily Mail choose to look at this side of the story.. obviously to create points to discredit MAS specifically and Malaysia in general.

    1. re: “it flies with a safe altitude of 33,000 feet..”

      If the altitude was “safe”, why are some 300 people now dead?

      MH17 was flying over “restricted airspace”.

      “This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 [32,000ft] …”

      “A notice posted by the UK’s Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) on 14 June urged carriers to avoid overflying Crimea and parts of southern Ukraine a month ago due to safety concerns”

      See, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace

      Don’t shoot the messenger (Daily Mail) lah by accusing them of trying to “discredit MAS specifically and Malaysia in general”.

      1. If the altitude was “safe”, why are some 300 people now dead? .. all of the aviation people was taking for granted that although in conflict, nobody would have thought that someone could use a missile that could reached tens of thousands of feet to down a passenger plane.. it has to be a sophisticated weapon.. that is why the airspace is not restricted… by ICAO and also the European Aviation Authorities… thus the 33,000 feet is considered safe by all these peoplelah…

        noted on the notice by UK CAA..

        Don’t you feel that the article title is unfair and prejudicial?

        1. Saya rasa semangat kebangsaan saya has put me into defensive mode in dispelling the notion that certain faults lies in our national carrier.. hence the shooting of the messenger…

        2. re: “all of the aviation people was taking for granted that although in conflict, nobody would have thought that someone could use a missile that could reach …”

          Not true. Air Canada said it has been “proactively” avoiding the area EVEN BEFORE the crash. I’m sure more airlines will reveal the same in this breaking story.

          “Three months ago, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration prohibited U.S. airlines from flying in areas not far from …”, see http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html

          re: “that is why the airspace is not restricted… by ICAO and also the European Aviation Authorities… thus the 33,000 feet is considered safe by all these peoplelah…”

          The airspace above 33,000ft is not restricted. However the same airspace below 33,000ft is “no fly”. MH17 was in the danger zone a mere 300 metres above minimum 33,000ft.

          If it had been flying at 40,000ft, then maybe your claim that a surface-to-air missile can’t reach that altitude.

          re: “Don’t you feel that the article title is unfair and prejudicial?”

          I do not own any MAS shares. It is the feelings of investors whom MAS and its now busy-busy corporate communications staff should be worried about.

          1. ‘If it had been flying at 40,000ft, then maybe your claim that a surface-to-air missile can’t reach that altitude.’

            ‘For months fighters in eastern Ukraine have been downing Ukrainian military helicopters, warplanes, and even a military transport aircraft – all using various forms of man-portable anti-air missiles – all of which are incapable of downing the Malaysian 777 which was flying at approximately 33,000 feet – well above the effective range of man-portable air defense systems.

            The system cited as responsible for the downing of flight MH17, was the sophisticated Buk radar guided, tracked-vehicle mounted, anti-aircraft missile system. The New York Daily News reported in an article titled, “Malaysia Airlines plane feared shot down in Ukraine near Russian border,” that:

            Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, reported Interfax, a Ukranian news agency.

            It is not clear if fighters in eastern Ukraine obtained any Buk systems – and if they did, it is unclear whether they had the ability to maintain and operate them. If they did have any Buk systems, they would be few. Kiev claims that the systems were passed along by Russia – apparently denying that any of their own systems had gone missing. Unfortunately, even if Russia was arming fighters in eastern Ukraine, it would not be with Buk systems that would be traced directly back to Moscow during their first use regardless of what they fired at.’

            http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2014/07/flight-mh17-down-over-ukraine.html#more

          2. Korean Air, Asiana, Qantas had all rerouted flights over Crimea since beginning of March, and Taiwan’s China Airlines since April.

            1. ADD:

              Hong Kong’s Cathay Pacific had not been using Ukrainian airspace “for quite some time”.

      2. But Donetsk (where the plane was shot) is not near Crimea. The airspace that was specifically restricted is over Simferopol in Crimea, located about 440km south-west of Grabovo where MH17 crashed.

          1. time for me to join the blame game: I blame Ukraine for not declaring an airspace ban over their region when they can’t contain the conflict in their region! arrgghh!

            still, I think MAS had relied on international aviation body to confirm what area is viable and safe, and made their route decision based on that. I still cannot find it in me to fault them in this >.<

            http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Ukraine-had-marked-Crimea-unsafe-not-Donetsk-where-MH17-was-downed/articleshow/38632107.cms

    2. I really do not understand why only now MH decides not to use that route.

      It is always a risk to fly in zones that are in arm conflicts even though there is no fly restriction. Prior to the MH incident, 2 planes had been shot and crashed in that area.

      In the airline industry, you take zero risk. Not even 0.000001% risk.

      1. It is a no fly zone (warning by Ukrainian authorities) and “restricted airspace” up to 33,000 ft or “Flight Level 330 apparently — according to many news reports.

        MH17 was said to be flying at 34,000 ft, i.e. 1,000 ft or 300m above the minimum ‘no fly’. So on a technicality, the plane was supposed to be flying clear of danger due to high altitude.

        In my non-expert, layman’s opinion worth 2 sen, methinks clearing safety Level 330 by a height equivalent to merely Menara Telekom is rather risky.

        We just do not have a culture of safety. If we’re pedestrians walking on the road, a safety wheel might come off the monorail and fall on our head. See, http://www.thestar.com.my/story.aspx/?file=%2f2009%2f4%2f8%2fnation%2f20090408142401&amp;

        If we’re driving, construction equipment for the LRT might fall on our car and still crush us to death. See, http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2013/03/29/Motorist-crushed-to-death-by-falling-construction-equipment-at-LRT-extension-site-in-Subang/

        1. I still remember that I invited MAS CFO in 1990s to speak to my students in a local public university. He told us that MAS took zero tolerance to risk. Every thing must be perfect. That was the reason why MAS had no virtually no accident accept for the Kubang case, which was beyond their control.

          The MD then was Tan Sri Aziz Abdul Rahman who is still alive and kicking. But now sad to say it always the Malaysian mentality that we only react after fatal accident happens. Just to give one example is Karak Highway The 4-lane Karak Highway was only constructed after so many fatal accidents that caused too many lives lost.

          Prevention is always better than cure. MH17 case is penny wise pound (very) foolish.

        2. interestingly I just that Ukraine ATC had requested that MH17 fly at 33,000 ft (the plane was at 35,000ft) due to air traffic at the time.

  2. If it is true that the MAS plane had tried to save fuel by flying over a war zone, then the airline’s management is penny-wise but pound-foolish. So amateurish, coming so soon after the earlier tragedy.

  3. Other airlines including Lufthansa and SIA use the route. To say that MAS usenthe route to save cost is incorrect.

    The route through Ukraine is vouched as safe by ICAO which is a UN organization that supervise aviation affairs. The no fly zone does not extend to 10000m altitude.

    1. re: “The route through Ukraine is vouched as safe by ICAO”

      Airlines have been told that flying over the Crimea conflict zone is generally dangerous.

      re: “The no fly zone does not extend to 10000m altitude.”

      Yes but MH17 was flying a mere 300m above the minimum altitude. A 300-metre distance is shorter than the height of Menara Telekom.

      1. Here’s another take on that advisory –

        Airlines have begun avoiding Ukrainian airspace. *This flight was traveling along a route it had regularly used on a daily basis in recent weeks. (Flights over conflict zones are actually common. The Federal Aviation Administration banned U.S. carriers from flying over certain areas above Crimea and the Black Sea, but this zone did not appear to include the area where the jet went down.) “It’s an established route…It’s not a no-fly zone,” Robert Benzon, a retired lead investigator at the National Transportation Safety Board, told The Washington Post.

              1. Urm, on second thought …

                Singapore known to be even more kiasu. They too wanted to save on fuel?

  4. “Is there something troubling Malaysia’s moral compass?”

    More like, is somebody out to get Malaysia?

    MAS had a great record for years. Do you seriously want to blame somebody shooting a MAS plane down with a SAM on MAS?

    You misunderstand what they mean by ‘restricted airspace”, MAS is flying above that height, 32 000 feet, both sides in the conflict are not supposed to touch the civilian planes flying above that, MAS planes were not the only one flying in the airspace. Is it a question of bad luck, or were we targeted from the beginning? Like you said, 2 incidences is too much of a coincidence. Too bad you choose to see MAS get blamed.

    Seriously, don’t need this.

    You touch a lot of people’s nerves, choosing to run along with the narrative and speculation of Daily Mail. Even the commenters in the same page disagree.

    Sorely disappointed with you.

    1. re: “both sides in the conflict are not supposed to touch the civilian planes flying above that”

      And WHO, pray tell, is going to compel both sides in the conflict to behave? (wag finger … the two of you are supposed to play nice and not touch civilian planes)

      re: “Too bad you choose to see MAS get blamed.”

      There are hundreds of airlines in the world. Yeah, why MAS indeed? Two major crashes in just a little over a quarter year.

      re: “You touch a lot of people’s nerves, choosing to run along with the narrative and speculation of Daily Mail.”

      It’s not just the UK paper. Very shortly, a lot more of the major global news networks will be questioning along the same lines.

      And mind you, the international media have already had their first hostile brush with Malaysia’s aviation bosses not too long ago.

      1. re: “the international media have already had their first hostile brush with Malaysia’s aviation bosses not too long ago.”

        Not true. Malaysia was very open, too open at times over MH370 but the media saw that openness as a weakness and started “attacking” the authorities.

        1. I’m anticipating that the international media will not be treating Malaysia with kid gloves over this. That’s what I meant by alluding to the “hostile brush” the last time around.

          The agencies and networks will probably send their same clutch of reporters who have been seasoned from the MH370 experience.

          And Liow Tiong Lai is real lembik, btw. He will not hold up well.

          1. Re And Liow Tiong Lai is real lembik, btw. He will not hold up well.

            His command of English is below par. Hisham on the other hand, he was very calm, composed, he articulated the position of the government very well. LTL, I don’t know how he’s going to respond. I mean, does he even know what people are asking of him and his ministry ? This looks really bad on Malaysia.

            1. Remember when he was the Minister of Health and how he denied that the tear gas had been fired into Tung Shin hospital?

              1. Exactly. Now I m just waiting for him to “put on a show” and it’ll be very embarrassing for Malaysia.

            2. “His command of English is below par…LTL, I don’t know how he’s going to respond. I mean, does he even know what people are asking of him and his ministry ? This looks really bad on Malaysia.”

              Itulah, nak sangat kongsi kuasa. 1M konon. It’s about getting the best man for the job. What does dr wanna be LTL, Bachelor of Science (Nutrition) from Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia know about transportation. Dulu kat MOH lagi. Gila.

              Politicians jadi captains and leaders of the country, that’s where the country is heading. Just look at Penang, nak ban tukang masak bukan warganegara jual makanan gerai.

    2. People should react with caution when they read something from the Daily Mail or for that matter, any news from the western media.

      With the situation in the Ukraine, now this latest development, the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner, the western media, with the BBC calling this a game changer of sort in the Ukraine crisis, you smell a rat.

      Now they are calling on the Russians to put more pressure on the “separatists” to end the fighting, you may wonder, who are the ones benefiting from all this ?

      1. re: “you may wonder, who are the ones benefiting from all this?”

        MH370 remains an unresolved mystery.

        Again, now MH17.

        No other airline in the world suffers so much speculation and conspiracy theories.

        1. When are we going to hear someone say “the aircraft would not have been shot if we are the government ?”

          1. Of course it would not be shot at if they are the government. They’ll probably shut down MAS 10 minutes into their term.

  5. ICAO is a higher authority than EASA and FAA which are specific to Europe and US, many European airlines like Lufthansa, Air France and KLM use the Ukraine routes despite advisories by EASA because they prefer ICAO guidance. Any decisions not to use te routes are voluntary by airliners as long as they comply to ICAO advisories. In this case, there is no fault in MAS using the Ukraine route even if its to save cost which as of now is speculative. The safety of the route in the end is vouched by ICAO, the international regulatory body for civil aviation.

    1. re: “use the Ukraine routes despite advisories by EASA because they prefer ICAO guidance”

      DESPITE the advisories, sigh.

      re: “Any decisions not to use the routes are voluntary by airliners as long as …”

      Well, after yesterday, all the airlines are now voluntarily avoiding the route over Crimea.

      1. EASA and FAA are limited by their borders, airliners from Africa, Asia are not expected to follow FAA and EASA advisories especially on routes outside their borders. Ukraine is not under EASA and FAA domain. ICAO regulate the entire global civil aviation matters.

      2. As the risks is 100% and real, of course airliners are avoiding the route even if ICAO says its safe.

        Even if the routes are realligend, civil airiners are still at risk from Russian S-300 missiles that have a range of 300km not to mention the hidden NATO missiles transferred around East Europe follwing the Ukraine crisis. As long as we dont know who allegedly shot down MH17, I advise, dont fly to Europe at all… because to me NATO, Ukraine and Russia are equally responsible and capable of such acts…

        -Ukraine shot down Russian aircraft in 2001
        -US(NATO) shot down Iran Air aircraft in 1988

  6. If the Ukraine route is defined as an unsafe route by all means, routes through hot zones such as south phillippine, south thailand, iraq, and many others are unsafe due to possibilities of missile strike, we have seen in Syria and zukraine, anyine can get a missile system from China and Russia whose shoulder launched missiles can be bought by anyone in the black market. While the magnitudes of these hot zones vary, the risks of being shot down is there but the movement of civil aviation traffic is prioritized as long as the risks are understood and accepted.

    Last year 3 billion people flew domestically ahd internationally statisticaly a majority of air routes including the Ukraine route is deemed safe. Unfrtunately, statistics is not on MAS side, and its natural MAS is expected to share the blame albeit due ti speculations.

    1. re: “south Philippines, south Thailand”

      Can’t seem to recall Moro and Pattani guerrillas shooting down aeroplanes, be it big or small.

      re: “Unfortunately, statistics is not on MAS side”

      You can say that again.

      My question: Why? Stats is not a game of dice.

      1. Stats is about trend and patterns, and trends say that the Ukraine route is safe. Its this trend that IATA and ICAO deem the route safe.

        The trend for MAS it seems one of its planes may crash every 3 months.

        Obviously the statistics and trend has been spoiled by a trigger happy missile launcher operator. The question is why is a medium range missile launched when Donetsk separatists only need shoulder launch missiles to attack Ukraine transport or ground attack planes planes which fly low unless they were expecting a high priority target 10000m above.

        1. ‘The question is why is a medium range missile launched when Donetsk separatists only need shoulder launch missiles to attack Ukraine transport or ground attack planes planes which fly low unless they were expecting a high priority target 10000m above.’

          ‘The remote possibility that separatists obtained a sophisticated Buk anti-air missile system, was able to maintain and operate it, failed to identify the Malaysian 777, and exercised the poor judgement to fire on it – would make the tragedy a catastrophic case of mistaken identify – for the separatists have no conceivable reason to fire on a Malaysian passenger liner – and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so.

          However, for the regime in Kiev facing decimated and unraveling military forces in the east, growing dissent in the west, and Western sponsors who are unable to materialize any form of meaningful aid militarily, economically, or politically – shooting down a civilian airliner and blaming it on the separatists could unite public opinion and the leadership of European nations behind NATO and the US for a more direct intervention on behalf of Kiev and change the tide of what is now a battle they will otherwise inevitably lose.

          The West is already working hard to set the stage for such a scenario. The BBC in an article titled, “Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone,” stated that:

          Sir Tony Brenton, a former UK ambassador to Russia, told BBC News it would not be a huge surprise if suspicion initially fell on the rebels.

          “That would be very damaging both for them and for their Russian supporters,” he said.

          “The Russians have undoubtedly been supplying them with weapons, almost certainly with anti-aircraft weapons, so Russia would very likely be implicated and that would raise the volume of international criticism of Russia.”

          Only the West and their proxies in Kiev would stand to benefit from this – and commentators like Tony Brenton and the BBC intentionally prey on the ignorance of their audience in hopes that they don’t know the difference between the Igla systems separatists most likely have, and the Buk system they most likely don’t have or are unable to operate.’

          http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2014/07/kiev-losing-sanctions-flopped-airliner.html#more

          1. things is suddenly everyone decided the plane MUST be shot with a Buk system. Because that’s what US intelligence said it is, from the get go isn’t it? They got on to it really quickly. I hope whoever is investigating, will investigate on all angles, and not just latch onto whatever ‘evidence’ that people give because they SAY it is so.

      2. ‘Why?’

        The West, read the Americans and the EU is waging war against Russia. They are waiting for Russia to literally invade Ukraine, but it didn’t happen. Thus this. Malaysia was and easy target to be bullied because we are not China to begin with.

        Let’s see whether this one, gives any clout, especially with Ukraine and the Netherlands involved, to the West via UN to attack Russia. Already the West are pointing their fingers at Russia!

        Funny enough I was reading this yesterday. Enjoy reading Helen.

        ‘With Kiev’s military campaign against fellow Ukrainians to the east faring poorly, an actual Russian invasion of Ukraine would only benefit them and their backers in both the European Union and collaborating states within NATO. Despite attempts to portray local defense fighters withdrawing from the Donetsk city of Slavyansk as a “retreat” and a “turning point” in the conflict in favor of Kiev, Kiev’s forces have continued to suffer heavy losses, most recently in Lugansk where apparently an entire tank column of between 40-70 vehicles was destroyed.’

        http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2014/07/nato-hopes-for-russian-invasion-of.html

          1. Absolutely. For news on the Westernt world, RT and PressTV are my first two choices.

            At times, DWTV seems to be reliable as well. But not on Russia, I guess.

        1. i believe this is the case too :(

          remember – so far the only ‘evidence’ that what hit MH17 is a surface to air missile is from US intelligence, who claim that this is indeed the case. Are we to take them at their words? Their own media have been setting up the stage that Russia is the culprit (right now they’re drumming up ‘pro-Russian rebels’ non stop to give the impression that these people are synonymous with ‘Russians’).

          1. ‘i believe this is the case too :(‘

            ‘MH17 crash: Anger towards Russia grows over tragedy’

            http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/20/MH17-crash-Anger-towards-Russia-grows/

            ‘Ukraine, rebels argue over wreck; Europeans give Putin ‘last chance’ ‘

            http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/20/Obama-says-downing-of-plane-a-wakeup-call-for-Europe-over-Ukraine-conflict/

            ‘Britain says Russia to blame over air disaster if rebels found responsible ‘

            http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/20/Britain-says-Russia-to-blame-over-air-disaster-if-rebels-found-responsible/

            ‘Britain, Netherlands say EU will need to reconsider approach to Russia due to plane disaster’

            http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/20/Britain-Netherlands-say-EU-will-need-to-reconsider-approach-to-Russia-due-to-plane-disaster/

            ‘Australian PM points finger at Russia over downed Malaysian plane’

            http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-airlines-abbott-idUSKBN0FN09220140718

            ‘MH17: Hillary Clinton says Russian-backed rebels likely shot down plane. Former US secretary of state declares ‘Putin has gone too far’ as White House criticises Kremlin’s arming of Ukraine separatists’

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-hillary-clinton-says-russian-backed-rebels-likely-shot-down-plane?CMP=twt_gu

            ‘Their own media have been setting up the stage that Russia is the culprit’

            ‘The level of unsubstantiated propaganda being directed against Russia regarding the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has reached unprecedented lows.

            There is tangible desperation across Western media establishments, their political spheres, and within their corporate-financier funded policy think-tanks as they attempt to reassert their agenda and narrative not only upon the crisis in Ukraine, but upon the entire world as their weakening grip becomes apparent to all.

            The dangerous desperation emanating from the West followes the latest in a series of growing failures – the previous and most comparable being the loss of its proxy war against Syria and the desperate criminal conspiracy they unleashed in a failed attempt to save it.’

            http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2014/07/mh17-weathering-propaganda-firestorm.html

            MH17 was deliberately targeted!

            ‘The Ukrainian air traffic control (ATC) did not permit Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH17 to scale 35,000 feet, MAS director of operations, Captain Izham Ismail said yesterday.

            He said MH17 planned to fly at 35,000 feet but according to the ATC, there was other traffic at that time, and the ATC ordered the doomed plane to fly at the next best altitude at 33,000 feet, which was above the restricted altitude.’

            Read more: http://www.theborneopost.com/2014/07/20/mas-mh17-following-ukrainian-atc-order-to-fly-at-33000-ft/#ixzz37xnuMYxk

            The Government of Ukraine, EU and US must be held responsible over this false flag!!!

            ‘Malaysia MH17 crash: 10 questions Russia wants Ukraine to answer’

            ‘8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?’

            http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

  7. HA,
    We may argue all the points, pro and cons , the hows and whys but lets us look at it from another angle.

    Malaysia is so deeply troubled by the differing views of politicians which cascaded down to its masses. There is no sense of belonging, what more unity.

    And lets not delve further into all the divisive factors.

    For non-believers, please ignore this ranting BUT for those who believe in God and Godliness, a message has been sent, not once but twice.

    Yet we are still not united as Malaysians. When disaster strikes, it is a message for us to be one and act as one. The blame game will start soon and, save for a handful, the rest of us will enjoy “our freedom of expression” without even thinking of the effects it has on families affected.

    Time to forget and forgive, especially in this holy month of Ramadhan. Time also for us to look deep into our hearts and evaluate what we have said and done. Let us not split hairs as there is enough on our plate, for more than we can swallow.

    Time also for leaders of various faiths, beliefs, opinions and views to lead their people and learn how to compromise and live in harmony.

    Or do we need another disaster and catastrophe, this time closer or even in our land itself before we realize that time is too short for the bickering and “you claim I claim” rhetorics.

    1. re: “Or do we need another disaster and catastrophe”

      Bad things usually happen in threes.

    1. Thanks orangkampung.

      The second (‘AFTER’) radar screengrab shows all the planes quickly scrambling clear away from Ukrainian airspace.

      … Of all those planes, of all the airlines, why MAS sudah jatuh lagi ditimpa tangga? …

      1. This is where I’m gonna go with – “God works in mysterious ways”.

        You know, somethings are just meant to be. Somethings are just beyond our logical comprehension. I guess this is one of those things. I doubt there’s any conspiracy here, just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

      2. Here’s some info on the plane –
        Reg. no 9M-MRD
        Age – 17 years
        First Flight – 17-07-97
        Last flight – 17-07-2014

        Conspiracy theory, anyone?

        1. And another point, according to your earlier posting with the list of 2014 plane crashes, MH17 is the 17th plane crash for the year.

        2. Reports of Twin MH370 found parked on Israeli land.. Makes me wonder if all these strange happenings were mere coincidences?

          Deepest condolence to all families of those who parished in this sad tragedy and to all the Muslim victims, Alfatihah.

        3. And possibly shot down by BUK, also known as SA-17 GRIZZLY.

          Sorry, I’m getting a bit obsessed by the no. 17

  8. PAS pulak nak bekerjasama dengan kerajaaan.

    http://www.pas.org.my/v2/index.php/artikel/ketua-penerangan/164-kenyataan-ketua-penerangan-pas-pusat-sesi-2013-2015/2516-tragedi-mh17-pas-sedia-kerjasama-dengan-kerajaan

    “Beliau turut menggesa semua pihak tampil ke hadapan dan PAS bersedia untuk bekerjasaman dengan kerajaan dalam menyediakan pakar-pakar yang ada di dalam PAS bagi membantu kerajaan berhadapan peristiwa tersebut. – HARAKAHDAILY 18/7/2014”

    PAS ada pakar-pakar aviation tak, atau pakar militar? Pakar berunding dengan Rusia? Apa yang PAS boleh tolong?

    1. re: “Apa yang PAS boleh tolong?”

      Their Pakatan partner Hannah Yeoh has contributed her standard prayer.

      Hopefully PAS will pray for the dead, and refrain from blaming Umno saying this too is Umno’s fault.

      1. You truly are deplorable. You are clueless about the number of flights that took that route with mas. There was an sq flight just a few miles away. and you choose to politicize the issue. Truly a disgusting person you are Helen. Let see what Malaysians think of you

        1. I can’t speak for other Malaysians but I personally find some of you quite repulsive.

          When some commenters in this forum talk about the need for spiritual introspection and God’s mysterious ways or plan for us, I hope they will consider too the current state of the nation and what Malaysia has become with the rise and rise of your kind of accusatory people – either making accusations/allegations all the time or all the time making a public spectacle of praying.

          And if you’ve forgotten, the Sultan of Selangor – only just a couple of days ago – bertitah on the troublemakers who “choose to politicize the issue”, who use religion for political their capital, and who invade the mosques to do their politicking.

          The Sultan was certainly not targetting his criticism at me or at Buddhists.

    2. I didn’t know they have experts. This is news. What can they do to help ? Invite the evangelists to mosques to pray for the victims ?

  9. 2014 is very bad year for Malaysia. We have suffered malapetaka after malapetaka. MH had 2 crashes in within a short-period of time which no other airlines had suffered.

    We, Malay and Islam, have also suffered which we never experienced before at the hand of Dapsters led by Lim dynasty who like to spin hatred against us. Due to this division of Malays, Dapsters have used this opportunity to enforce its wills on us and in a position to politically knock us out of our beloved country.

    I call upon Malays to unite and be strong as this is our only country. The MH17 crash had also eliminated Malays from this world.

  10. “YET MORE CHRISTIAN PRAYER: Hannah Yeoh #prayformalaysia #MH17”

    What does Hannah mean that only the families of MH370 can understand the families of MH17? Grief is grief. What is wrong with her? Or this is a quick Twitter love publicity momment.

    In other Hannah news

    Why is Hannah Yeoh harping about Tasmanian food with YouTiup? [tweet]

    Another Anak Malaysia is born will blessings from Hannah.
    Question: Father is Indian but the kid’s name is very pelik. Semi Chinese [tweet]

    Apa itu “borang pendaftaraan balik kampung”? [tweet]

    Dan Hannah pergi masjid lagi

    1. re: “The rest of us can only pray for them”

      I hope that Hannah Yeoh’s prayer calling upon God’s peace and comfort for MH17 is of help to the direct victims.

      The rest of us who are not directly impacted appear to be somewhat agitated.

    2. Goodness, I really hate this picture. Takleh buat banner besar2 ke tunjuk apa yg ditulis kat kertas tu?

      Real clowns… Nak beri sumbangan takyah le sampai bergambaq2. Those poor orphans n oghang2 yg tak keupayaan, don’t use them for your cheap stunts la…

      Crazy people!

  11. I dedicate this to Mr Lopez, and all western suckers out there!

    ‘While the EU promotes itself as a bastion of freedom, stability, and prosperity, it appears increasingly more like a hegemonic bloc, dictating to, rather than acting as a representative of, the European people. The slogan “Toward a Europe Whole and Free” rings hollow when the EU Commission begins dictating policy to individual states, and curtailing progress that benefits both individual nations and their people.

    The EU, in this light, appears more of an autocratic oligarchical consolidation of regional power and resources, not a democratic collaboration between nations. A slogan like “Toward a Europe Whole and Free” appears then to represent Europe, but only from the perspective of special interests seeking to loot the region collectively, rather than nation-by-nation.’

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2014/07/toward-europe-whole-and-free-to-loot.html

  12. Wake up call, it’s a big bad world where people will kill you for whatever reason that comes to mind.

    We should count our blessings here and work towards understanding to build a great country.

    Disagreements are inevitable. It’s how we deal with them that is important.

    Petty finger pointing, name calling and that rather perplexing trope that keeps surfacing about Chinese people not washing backside with water* in any kind of comments page has got to stop.

    *not true.

    1. Especially if the feces is creamy, it’s best to wipe-off with tissue first before washing the rectum with the left fingers, and then to cleanse the hands with soap* and water.

      * unfortunately in most public places, not available

  13. My prayers and heart goes out to all the victims and their families.

    This double whammy to hit MAS and our nation makes me wonder whether it’s bad luck, coincidence or sengaja?

    Our poor innocent plane fell victim to a power play between Russia and the the US.

    Also, I won’t be surprised if we soon find out what truly happened to MH370 now. I think both the US and Russia know what happened to the missing plane. If the US was complicit in the disappearance, (the Diego Garcia conspiracy), Moscow might just release the info to hit back at Washington.

  14. Dear all and Helen,
    Hari ini cikgu nak tulis bahasa Inggeris.

    MAS is not like Air Asia to cut everything at the expense of the Rakyat, safety and morality. MAS is a credible airlines and the pilot/s are well trained and committed for Malaysia. The kapten/pilots are not hypocrites like the above kiasu DAP leaders or worst case of PKR boomerang or the bad boy Khalid Samad. MAS stewardess have pride to serve Malaysia and to promote Malaysia hospitality. So dont blame the kapten/pilot ie. they are not stupid like Anwar, Khalid Samad and Rafizi.

    Malaysian should be matured to discuss issues and help the government to protect our dignity. The western corrupt media will start to play another music to further spread national integration and identity. Thus dont trust these media.

    Cikgu has licence to fly small aircraft, and i tell you it is not easy to fly. Cikgu needs to plan the journey especially on safety concern. Thus, just imagine the MAS kapten’s work plan. For sure he/she will fly on the route that is most trusted as advice by the so called international aviation ICAO expert. If the route is not safe and ICAO or NATO has issued no fly zone, definitely all airlines including MAS will take necessary action.

    Thus, Cikgu would like to appeal to all Malaysians especially the pembangkangs and selfish NGOs, please work together to uplift Malaysia spirit. Dont spoil Malaysian solidarity and every minutes attacking government, PDRM, Islam and the Sultan.

    Selamat Berbuka Puasa kpd muslims dan sesiapa yang berlakon sebagai muslims.

    1. ‘MAS is a credible airlines and the pilot/s are well trained and committed for Malaysia.’

      Absolutely CK. To suggest or insinuate otherwise is just plain wrong bordering to stupidity.

    2. Putin blames the Ukraine government.

      Ukraine blames the “separatists” in eastern Ukraine and their puppet masters in Russia.

      It’s turned into a blame game.

      Who will look out for the interests of the victims?

      For sure, not the Cikgu, who is more interested in politicizing the subject.

      As if he’s some sort of aviation expert, just because he has a PPL.

        1. Some notes on the universal law of karma:

          [YouTube]

          No soul is so refined that he is privileged to attribute a physical event to a non-evidential moral factor like “pg people” wants to arrogate for himself. But a socially irresponsible and judgemental attitude like his will certainly lead to disharmony and confusion among people.

        2. I don’t understand what is the link between MH17 with Umno, Perkasa and Isma?

          MAS is managed by professional managers whose performance is still a big question mark.

    3. If we want to blame, then blame on the VP for flight operation who plans the routes to be followed by all flights. At the moment we really do not know what exactly had happened. What we know is that MH17 was shot at and crashed.

      To MH there is a Chinese term “suwei”. Am I right Helen? I personally think MH needs to start all over again with a new label. When I travel I always travel by MH. I am very sad and I feel so sorry for those victims and their families. Condolences to them is the best that I can offer.

      To Najib, he needs to ponder why all those bad things happened to our beloved country when he is the big boss. You just name it from MH incidents to Allah issue and others.

  15. Ms H. I used to fly regularly to and fro London and Europe during the Iran-Iraq War, the Gulf War ! and 2. Our plane was never over any war-zones. What is happeninig these days with advanced weaponry, World of the Web, geo-politics etc ? Anyone with a sound mind and body would have avoided war zones like the plague !

  16. qoute from pprunes

    “‘airspace was closed up to fl240 weeks ago. lately it was closed up to Fl 320. now up to 660.”

    ”What kind of thinking will lead one to flight plan at FL330, when the airspace below is closed for damn good reasons? What risk assessment took place, and how could the outcome from such an assessment ever come to the conclusion 330 and above would be safe, when 320 and below are demonstrably not?”‘

  17. Ms H. Here is a Malaysian Chinese classic for all of us. Quote, ” LIOW : NO ONE SAID ROUTE WAS UNSAFE.” Ref. FMT. My father never told me not to drive without a licence. My 3 Golden Attributes for a Minister (i) Commonsense (ii) Abillity to think out of the Box (iii) Compassiion.

  18. Re: The rest of us who are not directly impacted appear to be agitated

    Dia tu maksud nya ‘berat mata memandang berat lagi bahu yang memikul…’bukan kah dia ni dah terkenal memikul segalanya macam hal orang Muslim, Kristian… pencetus ummah no Malays none Indians zero Chinese dan yang belum dipikul nya berat kg. M/Helen sebaliknya dia yang sering dipukul… kan

  19. Um, officials of Eurocontrol said that 75 airlines used the same flight path before the crash. And I’m preeeetty sure this is the same path my friends and I took while coming back from the US (via KLM though) back in 2009, though granted Ukraine was not embroiled with whatever is happening with them right now.

    why is everyone blaming the airline for god’s sake? That they could’ve saved people by not using the flight path that’s was approved and often used by all necessary aviation governing body? It’s like blaming someone for using a highway when their car was carjacked instead of blaming the carjacker. What could’ve saved 298 lives is people NOT SHOOTING IT OUT OF THE SKY.

    and Daily Mail sucks. their ‘sensational’ coverage of MH370 few months back totally nauseated me.

    1. re: “officials of Eurocontrol said that 75 airlines used the same flight path before the crash”

      Well, out of the 75 airlines, it had to be MH that was shot down. And out of the hundreds of major airlines, it had to be MAS which is the carrier involved in the only two commercial liner catastrophes this year.

      Airlines avoiding Ukraine before the shoot down are British Airways, Qantas, Cathay Pacific, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan’s China Airlines

      Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months (The Guardian, 18 July 2014)

      Also Air Canada and Delta Airlines.

      re: “SHOOTING IT OUT OF THE SKY”

      It is the work of Christian terrorists.

      re: “Daily Mail sucks. their ‘sensational’ coverage …”

      Granted that as a sensationalist newspaper, DM was among the first to highlight the angle. Since then, the other media have trotted out their respective aviation experts,

      former head of safety at Qantas
      http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/malaysia-airlines-mh17-australian-expert-questions-flights-ukraine-route-20140718-zuilw.html

      accident investigation and safety specialist Professor Geoff Dell
      https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24492106/mh17-should-have-avoided-route-expert/

      “Air safety experts have criticised Malaysia Airlines for flying over Ukraine airspace”
      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live

  20. what can anyone say? Either someone really had it in for MAS that they can’t catch a break? or that it’s karma? or that it’s a really, really bad coincidence?

    Personally for me, for now, until all the facts are out – this is what it is, and I can’t really blame anyone except those who shot it out of the air. People want blood and wants to blame someone, but as far as I can see – the facts point out that as much as there’re 9 airlines that avoided that flight path, there’re also MANY MORE that don’t as it’s deemed safe and approved by international aviation bodies. Singapore Airlines flew just under half hour after the crash (or was it before?) in the same flight path. Indian PM flew using the same flight path the same day for god’s sake – only an hour after.

    From what I can see from previous MH370 reporting from various media – it’s really what angle they want to focus on, and each angle asks a specific question – but it never tell the whole story, does it? It’s almost like, if you want to malign something, you can nitpick at one particular perceived weakness and make it so big, you lose sight of the big picture. I see a lot of people in quoting the Qantas head of safety, and good on him that he didn’t lose an airplane under his care when he was there, but looking at every other reports out there that said otherwise and the fact that so many other planes have used the same route prior to this – I really can’t say MAS is to be blamed. Greatly unlucky. But to be blamed? Far from it.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-crash-loss-of-the-two-boeing-777-planes-are-unlikely-to-be-linked-9613277.html

    Not gonna comment on the religion of the terrorists since i think it’s highly irrelevant. But I DO know there’re big world superpower that’s going to use this incident to act on their long held grudge on another big world superpower.

    1. re: “the facts point out that as much as there’re 9 airlines that avoided that flight path”

      My bad. There are more but I didn’t list down those names that are less familiar to us such as Etihad Airways (UAE).

      re: “I see a lot of people in quoting the Qantas head of safety, and good on him that he didn’t lose an airplane under his care when he was there”

      Now that you’ve reminded me, I recall that Qantas has the reputation of being the safest airline in the world.

      re: “Not gonna comment on the religion of the terrorists since i think it’s highly irrelevant.”

      Every time an attack is carried out by a Muslim, the world media take pains to call him an Islamic terrorist.

      1. I know Etihad airways. Regardless – until the crash – this particular route was still used by many airlines, and not deemed unsafe by ICAO, nor restricted. And even as there who said that one shouldn’t fly over war-torn zones – there are also many who said that this is common practice and civilian planes have been flying over warzones all the time! And even then – was Air Iran even flying over a warzone when it was shot by US Navy? Is it their fault for ..well, being Iranians?? It’s easy now to look back and said ‘you should’ve used this route’ – but seriously – had India PM’s plane been the one that was shot down instead – would people have blamed India for taking the route, or look at the fact someone SHOT a CIVILIAN PLANE?

        ‘Now that you’ve reminded me, I recall that Qantas has the reputation of being the safest airline in the world.’
        Good on Qantas then. Air France’s Concorde used to be safest plane until an unfortunate freak accident that killed everyone on board made them lose that record. Even then I still can’t fault Concorde’s operator – considering the circumstances the accident happened. You can read up on that somewhere. The thing is an airline can have a great safety record but any airplane is also at risk of losing everyone in single accident due to the nature of air travel. I still can’t fault Malaysia Airlines for this – I still don’t think this is human error, or due to mechanical error of the machine.

        There was a good question posed by someone on the new recently – if FAA had known something beforehand, had known that there are possibilities of weapons on ground that can shoot an airplane out of the sky, knowledge that they would’ve known from their army intelligence – why is it not something that they would share with ICAO nor the world in order to make flight routes safer for everyone? What is it that they’re not sharing with everyone? Keep in mind that it is also US intelligence who said it was definitely a surface to air missile that hit our plane, though they stopped short of saying WHO shot it exactly.

        ‘Every time an attack is carried out by a Muslim, the world media take pains to call him an Islamic terrorist.’ <— yeah but I don't want to be one those people. I'm a Muslim and I hate it when people do that, so I imagine other people would hate it too if the same thing is done to them, heh XD

        1. *sorry forgot to mention – even FAA’s notice appears to apply mainly to Crimea and the areas immediately to its north, all of which are south of the reported crash zone. So this rule would apparently not have prevented flights over the exact area of the crash.

    2. ‘you lose sight of the big picture.’

      the loss of aid in battling AIDS

      ‘The International AIDS Society (IAS) has today confirmed the devastating news that at least six delegates traveling to the 20th
      International AIDS Conference (AIDS 2014) in Melbourne, Australia, including former IAS President Joep Lange, were on board the Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 that crashed over Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. ‘

      Click to access IAS_press-statement_190714_2.pdf

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