Below is the image that emerged on a glass window of the SJMC hospital in November 2012.
Christians started praying to it because they believed it was a miracle sighting of Mary, Mother of God.
Non-Muslims were asked to be respectful of those Christians who believed that the image on the window was divine.
This week, Muslims sighted the appearance of crosses on the rooftop of some houses in Langkawi.
When Christians see the Holy Mother of God in a dusty Subang Jaya window, we’re asked to respect their religious sensitivities. But when Muslims see a cross on Langkawi roofs, it’s quite alright if their religious sensitivities get thrown out the window.
With the Christians of Jerusubang, we’re asked to give our understanding and practise religious harmony. The Muslims feel uneasy about the crosses but that’s okay, go ahead and mock them mercilessly for having a wild imagination.
After all, it’s only a mirror to the balance of power between the Christians and Muslims globally and between mourning for the casualties of the Paris bombing versus all the dead in the cities of Syria.
BELOW: Christians praying to the Subang Jaya window pane
Photo credit: Kwong Wah
101 thoughts on “Remember the Holy Virgin Mother Mary in the Subang Jaya window?”
Never ceases to amaze how people can be so one sided and allow themselves to be fooled time and time again by the same people using the same tricks.
Whatever happened to the Virgin Mary of Madjigoria who was created when the Church was helping anti Yugoslavia forces to galvanize Catholic anti Socialist sentiment to bring down Yugoslavia just like Bersih and this Virgin Mary is being used to topple the government of Malaysia? Is she now gone? No more miracles? faded?
The faces on each of those “pilgrims” outside the Subang Jaya hospital kneeling before the man made farce called the “Virgin Mary” is farcical and pathetic beyond description. It is embarrassing. Grown individuals supposedly with a rational mind and some common sense falling for this con by the church.
It explains why the feel they are second class citizens in Malaysia. And so they should be. Waiting for handouts whether this be for God through the mother of Christ or government.
Wonder is any of them will now blame God for tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and accidents and ask him to resign because of the billions “Christ” and the church receives in “Donations” not just from Arabs but from all of mankind.
What’s good for the PM must be good for Christ.
The window pane was removed and taken to the Marian Church of Our Lady Lourdes in Klang.
I have not seen the glass pane myself, whether in situ at Sime Darby Medical Centre or in the church in Klang.
However, I have examined pictures of the window as closely as I could and it appears to be just a stain or discolouration of some layer on the glass, causing it it somehow resembling the image of a woman wearing a head covering.
Otherwise I do not think it is an apparition of Mother Mary, which some Catholics believe and neither do I believe that it was deliberately created but formed naturally due the effects of moisture, water, dissolved paint or something like that.
Catholic priests themselves warned their follows not to blinely accept what they saw as a miracle until it has been properly verified using prescribed criteria by the Catholic church.
If the glass pane is still on display at the church, it would be worthwhile paying a visit to study it more closely.
Also, ask the priest what the status of official verification of the image was and if an official verification was conducted.
Good that the church took the window pane to venerate or otherwise if the image had turned into some sort of a shrine, it would have stalled traffic and blocked the ambulances.
The developer agreeing to paint the roofs is also a peace-keeping compromise.
Schiess we have seen the display in the Church you name here as well we had spoken to two individuals who unknown to each other examined the glass pane closely enough. No conclusive evidence was available to suggest it was man made or that it was the result of a divine miracle. What is a divine miracle anyway?
The Church has always allowed these sorts of magic shows to proliferate at times of uncertainty if it brought worshipers, new and old closer to it. It remains ambivalent where the authenticity of the ‘document’ the glass pane is concerned.
What is authenticity you may ask. Lets take another piece of documentary evidence as controversial in recent times and examine the point.
The Lingham tapes was a document of a man (Lingham) purportedly speaking to someone over fixing something before the courts. It may have been judges. It may have been a judge.
However the evidence which the panel of 3 blind mice (3 retired judges) concluded was a tape of Lingham speaking to retired judge Fairuz or someone of similar stature on the other side of that prop (the telephone) Lingham was holding to his ear, was not in fact a tape of anything mroe than a man called Lingham speaking over a telephone ear/ mouth piece.
How the 3 Blind Mice came to the conclusion they came to is nothing short of a divine miracle. There is no evidence of another voice on the tape to suggest Lingham was in fact speaking to someone else let alone the former Chief Justice. And that point alone demonstrates the fickle nature of mob rule. 3 Blind mice demolish their credibility as learned men of the law by concluding it was otherwise.
The Church likewise is content to say that it is an image of the Virgin Mary but stays silent on the “miracle” aspect of the document (the glass pane). They are content to allow the fickle amongst their flock to dig deep into their pockets and make “donations” to the church. Now why is that not as controversial as the 2.6 billion donation to Najib?
And in any case who has any proof of what the virgin Mary looked like really? Artistes in ancient times who drew pictures of her were doing so on the basis of stories and their own perceptions of what a beautiful Jewish woman would have looked like at that time in history. And there are millions of versions of what Mary would have looked like. This is the Hollywood version of what the Virgin Mary would have looked like. If one has visited the Vatican and seen what the depictions of this woman they call the Virgin Mary is presented as it would make them change their minds about Christianity altogether. She looks Italian in all Catholic depictions of the Virgin Mary.
A Fraud is what I call it. A trigger to blindly commit treason and to trigger a civil war as the church did in Yugoslavia with the Virgin of Majigoria, and other “apparitions” as occurred before World War 1 and 2 and in South America during “Operation Condor”.
“A trigger to blindly commit treason and to trigger a civil war as the church did in Yugoslavia with the Virgin of Majigoria,”
You are truly a goose who clearly has in in for Christianity. An alleged apparition in a little village called Medjugorje to a few little children in 1981, which was heavily criticized by the local bishop of Mostar, the Vatican at the time and in fact to this very day is being blamed as a trigger to a civil war? Whatever you are smoking, I would love some of it.
FYI, the alleged apparitions are still supposedly happening today. I know you love to come across as highly knowledgeable , but perhaps you should do more research into some of the things that you claim to know a lot about. And condemning something from your bedroom, because it doesn’t fit with your worldview, isn’t being smart at all. It’s just makes you look like a conceited….
‘And condemning something from your bedroom, because it doesn’t fit with your worldview, isn’t being smart at all. It’s just makes you look like a conceited….’
The same can be said of you!
I live in this country and engage with Muslims and Christians every day. I highly doubt grkumar even knows where Medjugorje is, but pretends to be an expert on what is going on there. The fact the alleged apparitions are still supposedly happening (which he wasn’t aware of) almost fifteen years after the civil war has ended makes his claims even more laughable.
Try harder la brader.
A goose ? well perhaps you ought to get out of the “pen” then my friend and live with humans. Pope John Paul II or Karol Wojtiwa once archbishop of Mt. Hagn in Papua New Guinea declared it a miracle.
He was a highly political figure a total right wing fascist who came to powere after the murder of Pope John Paul the first a humble non interfering neutral man.
Having worked with his former Polish countryman then American Zbignew Brezenski (who although having served under Carter as Democrat, jumped ship and served under Reagan and William Casey in setting up that fraud), in later years, the whole saga unfolded because of the involvement in the murder of banker Roberto Calvi and the arms trades it became embroiled in with Col. Oliver North, Adminral Pointdexter in what became known as the Iran/ Contra Affair.
So much for the morality of the Holy Roman Empire of misfits and murderers. And why should I not have it in for them? Fool
I noticed you have shied away from your Medjugorje rant. Typical. And I must now tell all oppo supporters that a sure way of toppling the ruling government is to paint some Christian image on a window pane. That should be good enough to convert the Muslims and convince them all to never vote UMNO again…
If thats your idea of ‘shied away’ who am I to stop you. Be my guest
Haha WTJ you think the feringghis for the last few hundred years never did?? What la you?!
Brader, I know your style.You will make a comment, and then will not have a response to the person’s rebuttal, so will totally sidestep the issue, and then support another poster with a one liner. Why even bother, brader?
As for grkumar, your absurd comments on the Medjugorje apparitions and the window pane leading to the toppling of the government is enough proof for everyone here to never take you seriously again. You love to come across as an intellectual but you obviously are far from it.
re: “is enough proof for everyone here to never take you seriously again”
A description more apt for you and your evangelista methods.
Haha..You are so out of it. I hardly ever comment on politics anymore. I only rebut every now and again when you and your sheeple continue to bash Christianity for no reason. I don’t have an agenda. You on the other hand….
It is a most unconvincing “rebuttal” (sic) to accuse us of “bashing” Christianity.
In what way is discussing snow and the winter solstice and their connection to Christmas iconography “bashing” Christianity?
re: “for no reason”
Have you ever asked yourself why it is that the Malays are reacting to Christians but not stirred or shaken by Buddhists and Taoists who are greater in number than the Christians in Malaysia?
OK. If you saw the display of the glass pane in question, what did you make out that image which formed on it is?
Just looking at the photo of it in Helen’s blog above, the pane in question and those in the windows above and below it appear to be made of green coloured glass or are tinted green to reduce the sun’s intensity and heat.
Those windows also appear to be coated by some whitish substance which could have come from wall paint dissolved by the rain over time.
Now what appears to have happened over time in that window pane in question is that some of the green tinting has peeled off, perhaps due to a manufacturing defect. You can see green speckles or patches in the lower part of the glass pane, especially in the part which looks like part of a woman’s cloak.
The green tint has peeled off in such a way as to produce what looks like a woman complete with head, and the green tinting has peeled off most of the centre of the glass, which has been clouded by the whitish substance, thus appearing to be the breast and lower torso of a woman.
As for Medjugorje, some Catholics have come out to denounce it as a fraud.
The fact that priests neither confirm nor debunk nature of the image, whether miraculous or not, could well be due to the rules over how such claims should be handled. Here is an excerpt from Catechism of the Catholic Church which may explain the protocol to be observed.
“Another way of saying this is that private revelations may not be believed with divine and Catholic Faith. They rest on the credibility of the evidence in favor of a supernatural origin. In the case of private revelations approved by the highest authority in the Church we can say with Pope Benedict XIV,”
“Although an assent of Catholic faith may not be given to revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules such revelations are probable and worthy of pious credence. [De Serv. Dei Beatif.]”
“The Pope is saying that a Catholic, seeing that the Church (and here the Holy See is meant, as only it’s acts can be of universal effect) has investigated and approved certain revelations, is being prudent to give them human assent. That acceptance does not rest on the guarantee of Faith, or the charism of infallibility, but on the credibility of the evidence as it appeals to reason. The assent involved is not supernatural but the natural assent that the intellect gives to facts which it judges to be true. Approved private revelations are thus worthy of our acceptance and can be of great benefit to the faithful, for as the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes,”
So when dealing with such sightings purportedly of a divine nature in the religion’s eyes, until the supposed apparition of Mother Mary is deemed by the Church to be genuine of not, the priests must maintain silence with regards it.
With regards you allegation that the Church made money out of this:-
” They are content to allow the fickle amongst their flock to dig deep into their pockets and make “donations” to the church.”
What proof do you have of the Church making any money out of this and if so, how much?
All churches and temples have donation boxes and some churches such as the Roman Catholic Church collect voluntary donations from their devotees towards the end of mass.
Other churches collect tithes, just as in the case of Muslims who pay thites (zakat) and there are donation boxes in restaurants, etc. for diners to donate spare change towards mosque building, social welfare and other causes.
Also, let’s not forget statues of Lord Ganesh drinking milk and other such supernatural or divine happenings.
Of course, you may not be a Hindu at all, as your handle “Gopal Raj Kumar” suggests, since I understand that “Gopal Raj Kumar” is the pseudonym for a group of commentators, much like “Awang Selamat” is for Utusan.
Also note that the Evangelical churches which the likes of Hannah Yeoh belong to are Protestant and do not honour nor venerate Mother Mary but rather gives Mother Mary little or no significance in their beliefs.
The window in context.
The tear lines in what appears to be the greenish tint layer strongly suggests the seeming image was formed by the gradual peeling off of that layer.
None of the Hindu deities draw a comparison to that which the Catholic Church inflicts on its followers. One merely has to go to the Church where the glass pane has been retired to to see the paraphenelia on display and for sale and make inquiries of the priest as to how much a mass there would cost if dedicated to the appeared virgin.
Ganesha drinking milk is as old as religion itself. It is all about symbolism. And yes slight of hand. How does that justify the “true church and true God” replicating the sleight of hand and magic shows of Hindus?
Firstly Kumar, you have not answered my question. From what you have observed of the said image on display in the church, what does it look like to you?
If it’s not divine or man made, then is it just the result of something much more mundane, such as wear and tear over time due to exposure to the elements or was it caused by some substance which stained it.?
Secondly, did you enquire of the priest as to how much a mass dedicated to the “appeared virgin” would cost and if so how much?
If they are charging exorbitantly for it, then there is cause for criticism, though not of the faith but rather of the particular church.
I am not trying to justify anything alleged on the church’s part by citing instances of images of Lord Ganesha drinking milk but just to point out that such things happen in all religions or religious denominations either with many facets of god or a hierarchy of persons regarded as divine or semi-divine.
You do not hear of such supernatural occurrences amongst Protestant Christians, Jews and Muslims since Jews and Muslims are strict monothiests, with one supreme almighty, whilst Protestants only look to the three facets of god – i.e. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but none other.
However, with the Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians, not only do they believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but they also honour Mother Mary and the saints and believe that they can can appeal to Mother Mary and the Saints to in turn appeal to Jesus or God on their behalf.
In Hinduism, the many facets of the one God are given rolls similar to that of the saints.
re: “You do not hear of such supernatural occurrences amongst Protestant Christians, Jews and Muslims”
The syiah and their imams’ holy shrine?
Perhaps any of the Muslim readers can enlighten us on this.
“The syiah and their imams’ holy shrine?”
Yes whilst I don’t know much about it but I have an idea that Shia Islam honours its Holy Imams somewhat like Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians honour saints.
However, I am not yet heard or read of Shia getting excited over images somewhat resembling any of their Imams appearing in paintwork of walls, in the sand, in the clouds, etc. and beleieving that they possess some kind of divine power.
Anyway, the kind of scenes of pious fervour which took place outside the Subang Jaya Medical Centre over what they believed to be an image of Mother Mary are not unique to Roman Catholics alone but to believers of other faiths and denominations as well.
For example, back in 2007, a craze over the Jatukham Rammathhep amulet swept Thailand to the dismay of Buddhist traditionalists.
“The Jatukham Rammathep amulet is believed by millions Thais and to some extent Malaysians and Singaporeans, to bring wealth to its possessor.It is reported in the Thai press that during the unprecedented Jatukarm amulet craze just a few months ago, the temple where the talismans originated, had been fully booked for rituals.”
Anyway, however “irrational” such beliefs may appear to pure rationalists, those who firmly believe must have had some kind of experience which reinforces their belief, even though their experience cannot be rationally explained by today’s science.
“As with any sacred relic, claims are made for their power and transformative ability, but unusually these assertions have actually been tested by a Stanford University physicist and a former Mayo Clinic doctor, who claim the relics rearrange the atoms and molecules in the space around them into a more coherent order (more of which later).”
“Some 2.3 million people in 68 countries have already come to see the relics on they tour the world. The relics will eventually be enshrined in a 45m bronze statue of Maitreya Buddha to be built in Bodh Gaya, northern India. The sense of serenity emanating from them is the prime attraction: as with visitors to the Virgin Mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale; or to Amma, the Hugging Nun, some people describe an exquisite energy in their presence.
“Alongside the pearls (dismissed by cynics as carbonised kidney stones) are strands of hair and bits of bone belonging to Buddhist masters from India, Tibet, Korea and China. The relics are amassed in the same haphazard way as the body parts of saints were collected in the early Irish church: some gathered from old monasteries and museums in Tibet, Nepal and Burma; others randomly received from followers of the deceased masters who meet up with the tour as it tracks around the world and offer bits picked from the cremation ashes of their old lamas or yogis.”
“Dr William Tiller, a retired Stanford physicist whose Institute for Psychoenergetic Science studies the quantifiable impact of human consciousness on the physical world, claims to be able to measure the intent inputted into an inert object through concentrated thought. He demonstrates this by imprinting an electrical device through focused thought with instructions to raise or lower the pH of a glass of water. He then carries the device to a different location where it will adjust the pH of a different glass of water according to the initial instructions. He claims this is due to deltrons, high thermodynamic particles, that exist between atoms and molecules and are capable of storing focused thought or intent.”
“At a University of Arizona conference in 2012, his co-researcher, Dr Nisha Manek from the Mayo Clinic, claimed that the relics have been imprinted with the consciousness of the original Buddhist masters and then primed by the many devotees who interact with them.”
“Their potency was such that they could change the thermodynamics of the space they were in, re-ordering the molecules (groups of atoms bonded together) into a more “coherent” form. While such thinking is unlikely to pass muster with this newspaper’s science editor, the power of the relics to entrance is evident in the ecstasy, tears and silent veneration one sees at every venue the tour visits. They attract the faithful and faithless, and children and animals seem especially affected.”
Talking of this sense of serenity, I have experienced an intense sense of serenity whilst walking beside the main shrine hall of Chetawan Temple in Petaling Jaya. This is side overlooking Jalan Gasing and Section 5 in the distance. However, when I visited last week, this sense of serenity less strong, perhaps due to the massive building which has taken place at the temple. including beside the main shirne hall.
I also experienced a similar feeling of intense serenity whilst visiting a temple with my Thai friends in Bangkok back in the 1970s, during a transit stopover from the UK enroute to KL. At the time I was completely materialist minded but this feeling left an impression on me that there could be more out there than accepted materialist science and rationality can explain.
Those people who firmly believe in the beneficient power of Mother Mary, the Goodess of Mercy Kuan Ying, Lord Ganesh, Lord Krishna, the Saints, Gautama Buddha, certain Bodhisatvas, certain deceased monks, the relics of buddhas and arahants, of certain llamas, of certain Imams, Yogis, etc. must continue to do so because they have experenced something about them spiritually, even though they cannot explain it rationally.
Psychologists may explain that by having faith that such external entities will help them, such believers gain the courage and confidence to help themselves and succeed in achieving what they want or solve their problems.
Perhaps. But if believing that something external to themselves helps them overcome their problems works for certain persons, thus reinforcing their belief, then can anyone blame them.
re: “scenes of pious fervour which took place outside the Subang Jaya Medical Centre”
The Jerusubangites display the same pious fervour for their politics. It’s the kind of mindset conducive to be harnessed for a Taiping Rebellion.
It’s a basic human trait to try and ascribe meaning to seemingly random patterns e.g. cloud shapes. That’s how we can read handwriting, appreciate art and so on.
Does the window look like the Virgin Mary? Yes, it does rather … and if the Catholics feel that it’s a miracle , well, that’s up to them.
There’s supposedly a Buddha face on a cliff side in Perak and while it attracts some devotees, that doesn’t mean all Buddhists are thronging to it – everyone has their own level and approach to how they want to practice their faith; so long as it doesn’t impinge on others then what’s the harm?
re: “so long as it doesn’t impinge on others then what’s the harm?”
The throng of devotees block traffic. Ambulances need to enter and exit the SJMC hospital.
The question you ;posed was answered quite clearly. This is a western depiction of what the virgin Mary Looked like. One of several variants. To me it looked like what it is. An image created out of pigment that reacts to light. Thats the suspicion of the Papal Nuncio who one of our writers interviewed over the telephone when this image appeared and sent worshipers into a frenzy. Read the blog on the subject on http://www.takemon.wordpress.com.
As for the amounts being charged by the local parish priest at the time, it too was disclosed after a couple of parishioners told one of our writers that the amounts being charged were a bit exorbitant. The Kelang parish has always been a highly controversial parish over the years from what we have learned. What exorbitant is differs from one party to another. Why you insist on knowing how much exorbitant is is really irrelevant and a distraction to what clearly irritates you or hits a raw never with you over this fraud.
You are justifying what churches do by drawing parallels with Lord Ganesha and what others do. If you were not you would not raise the issue at all.
The Muslims are not what you believe them to be. They are more diverse than you seem to know as a group.
Over the past decade the Muslims in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States as well as in south India began to display fish caught from the high seas with inscriptions of verses from the Koran across their bodies. They proclaimed it a miracle. After a few months its stopped in Saudi Arabia where the price of fish skyrocketed. it then appeared in the states of Kerela and Bengal, two Indian states with a significant Muslim population.
As for the Jews you are again wrong. In 1999 when Rabi Menachem Schneerson (the Rabbe) died in New York, his followers from the Chassidic Jewish community danced and sang on the streets that he would rise on the third day. They believed him to be the Messiah (Messsiach) and treated him accordingly. Schneerson did not set foot in Israel.
He believed and encouraged his many followers (including Australian billionaire Rabi Joe Gutnick and his father Chaim Gutnick ) that he was the Messiah and that no one but the Messiah has the right to proclaim the state of Israel and the right of return of Jews to return to Israel. Many Jews believe that the state of Israel is illegtimate in its present form and tat they the Jews will pay a huge price for disregarding to Gods promise to them.
Gutnick believed his Rebbe could perform miracles and openly declared that miraculous ability of Scheerson to locate Gold and Diamonds in the desert. Gutnick’s and his sister Rose’s ability to find gold and diamonds respectively through their listed companies in Australia was later the subject of fraud investigations which brought Gutnick undone. Not as badly as an Indian fertilizer company who he defrauded brought him undone for millions last week.
There is no known and organized religion anywhere that does not practice this well worn trick.
Thanks for enlightening my ignorance on gullibility of many belonging to various organised religions.
However, how did this acrylic paint get onto that glass pane. Was it applied on the pane before it was installed or was it painted later?
“A unique form of acrylic paint is being tested at a laboratory in the UK from a sample taken from the “miraculous image” of the Virgin Mary of Sime Darby. In addition to this the reflective quality of the glass panel and the chemical reaction to what has been identified as a “substance” that was added to it has also been taken for analysis.”
“Isn’t it strange how the Virgin Mary and Jesus himself as God are unable to inspire Malaysians of all denominations to work together and as hard as the other to achieve prosperity and peace?”
Well does this blog and the commentors herein help promote all Malaysians to work together to achieve prosperity and peace?
I think it helps promote the opposite, which is unfortunate.
I’ve thought for a while, that I should not bother about Malaysian politics and worry spend my time taking more care of my own affairs and that of my close friends and family.
If the rest of Malaysia must go to the dogs, then so be it.
Que sera, sera. What will be, will be.
It is really not up to any individual (unless they see it as their mission to do so in life) “to help promote Malaysian or anyone else to work together to achieve peace and harmony”.
Peace is an illusion. Humanity will never achieve that goal because peace is a very subjective condition.
If I am to suggest a description or definition for it, it is a relative calm between our conflicts and confrontations. There was never a time in human history when we had “peace”. We advance and progress through conflicts differences and confrontation over common objectives and uncommon ones. The level of conflict differs from one group to another from one priority to another.
It is religion that gives us this make believe condition of peace. Anyway the subject is really irrelevant here. We digress.
I think people who support an incompetent and ridiculous opposition supported from abroad work together to fin their own “peace”. Those who support the government (as well as those who oppose it) take full advantage of what it offers and live in relative harmony and peace although they are not prepared to admit to it.
What oyu propose to do in your last sentences is perhaps the correct way to go about finding at least a personal peace for yourself.
Be the change you want to see in this world. Charity begins at home. Let each concerned person do what they believe in if they believe it will achieve that peace they seek.
“Peace is an illusion. Humanity will never achieve that goal because peace is a very subjective condition.”
Gautama Buddha was right that nothing in this world is permanent but is forever changing, war and peace included, but he never advocated that we should not do our best to preserve peace, good morals, integrity, etc., Likewise he likened those who cared for the ill as caring for him, even though the patient eventually die one day.
Thus, I do wish to contribute towards conflict, even though at times it’s inevitable.
If there are opposition politicos who are acting in ways which you object to, then counter them in particular, not sweepingly tar a whole religious group with the same brush, which wittingly or unwittingly tends to happen on this blog.
you fight fire with fire.
re: “Well does this blog and the commentors herein help promote all Malaysians to work together to achieve prosperity and peace?”
Those preaching ‘peace’ all the time are hypocrites. Their talk is as cheap as the ‘love’ they offer.
Take for example, Where’s the Justice (WtJ) who complained that my Christmas posting was distasteful. Well, I bylined the article and I will take responsibility for what I wrote about the origins of the Dec 25 festival from the winter solstice and Saturnalia.
Plus I published in my own space.
Examine, on the other hand, the actions of the ostensibly peace-loving Christians. WtJ commented that the Prophet Muhammad was a [deleted] … I did not let his description through.
Are the Christians promoting peace by saying that about the prophet and other things about Islam and Muslkims all over the online message boards? And furthermore, they do it under the cloak of anonymity while using other people’s publishing space to evade personal responsibility.
Do you trust that these kind of people are really promoting peace? I don’t.
Like GR Kumar said, we have no obligation to them (the sneaky bastards).
“Examine, on the other hand, the actions of the ostensibly peace-loving Christians. WtJ commented that the Prophet Muhammad was a [deleted] … I did not let his description through.”
There you go twisting things again. Look at the context of that comment. First of all, it was in response to one of the commentators who was grossly belittling and misrepresenting Christianity, so I said how would you like it if I had said this about your prophet.
Secondly, it’s a historical fact and so I have no idea why you deleted it. In today’s terms, the word that I used is highly accurate. Funny, so it’s only within your rights to say that you are simply presenting the truth behind Christmas and Christianity, but others cannot present certain truths about Islam or other religions? Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
You are the sneakiest person of the lot…
Why don’t you use a name and make your identity known instead of baling batu sembunyi tangan. Typical evangelista.
re: “the word that I used is highly accurate”
And is what you insist on saying/repeating a way to promote peace between the races and religions?
You oppo evangelistas who style yourselves as promoters of ‘peace and harmony’ are bloody hypocrites.
This is Helen’s perspective – I will come up with an article on Christmas day to annoy the Christians and dampen their spirits on their festive day, and will just state that it was for educational purposes when they call me out on it, even though it’s purely done to instigate. But if one of those Christians in turn tries to educate a Muslim with factual statements, I will rip him to shreds as I must bow to my Malay masters. I know I’m a bloody hypocrite but the majority on this blog will probably be too blind to notice, and I guess I can always divert away the unwanted attention and accusations to Hannah.
re: “I must bow to my Malay masters”
I am not a politician. I do not need to win a popularity contest in order to collect Malay votes. The DAP leaders, on the other hand, will retract their statements (like Chong Zhemin on the Israeli athletes) bowing to Malay sentiments for fear of alienating the Malay vote.
re: “I know I’m a bloody hypocrite”
I know the evangelistas are bloody hypocrites and you’re one of them.
re: “but the majority on this blog will probably be too blind to notice”
Unlike the evangelistas, the majority on this blog are not blinded by hatred and are open to reason (like on the Isreali athletes issue).
re: “I guess I can always divert away the unwanted attention and accusations to Hannah.”
Leadership in hypocrisy not only by Mama but by Papa too.
“Why don’t you use a name and make your identity known instead of baling batu sembunyi tangan. Typical evangelista. ”
When most of your followers here are using pseudo names, why ask me to reveal myself? Hypocrite!
There is no need to compare between you and the other commentators on this blog. We’re comparing you with me.
You accuse me of not promoting peace while I threw back that your comments here are in no way promoting peace.
I use my name. My identity is publicly known and thus I am responsible for what I say about Christmas.
You, on the other hand, hide behind anonymity and trying to spew hate at Prophet Muhammad in my publishing space and thus evading responsibility for your words.
“And is what you insist on saying/repeating a way to promote peace between the races and religions? ”
Haha. The hatemonger is trying to advise others on promoting peace.
Christmas is celebrated with a tree bedecked with glittering baubles, and colourful presents in stockings purportedly from Santa who had shimmying down the chimney after travelling through snow on his reindeer sleigh.
What has all of the above has got to do with religious teachings of the man – or Prophet or Son of God, whichever you believe – born in the desert area of the Middle East?
I said the celebration of Christmas on Dec 25 as the “birthday” of Jesus is a creation of latter day vested interests. I have not said anything nasty about Jesus or about God.
You, on the other hand, have not ceased heaping contempt and spewing hatred at Prophet Muhammad. For you to turn around and accuse me of hate-mongering is typical of the evangelistas’ ‘Bak Kut Teh is not pork’ sleight of hand.
Helen, I encounter a number of Christians who forward me stuff which expresses hate or ridicule of Muslims and I also have some Buddhist and Hindu friends who speak ill of Muslims and Malaysia in private conversation.
However, whilst they may have some valid issues which make them act that way, I do not believe that a “us versus them” attitude solves anything, since it only fuels the hatreds which can potential lead to bloodshed in Malaysia and I do not want to be a part of that.
On one occasion I received an e-mail from a Malaysian Christian friend which he forwarded from another Christian who expressed ridicule at a group of refugees in Europe who refused food on grounds that it was not halal.
I replied telling them that rather than make issue over this trivial stuff, they should be more concerned about the plight of Arab Christians in Syria and other Middle Eastern countries who are being killed by western and Saudi backed Islamic militants who have occupied the territories these Arab Christians live in and backed my argument up with video features and documentaries about the plight of these Christians and how they were relieved of such persecution when the Muslim Kurds drove these Islamist militants such as ISIS out of their area, and how Arab Muslims and Christians worked together rebuild churches destroyed by the western and Saudi-backed Islamist militants. Also, some of these Arab Christians have joined their fellow Muslim Arabs in armed militia to fight against these Islamists who also attack and persecute Alawi Muslims.
I then told the posters that I would sooner regard more seriously what these Arab Christians who have been there since 100 years after the death of Jesus, than the views of “Johnny come lately” Christians in Malaysia.
In another post I received from a Christian Malaysian contained link to a rightist, anti-immigrant propaganda video about the current wave of migrants entering Europe.
I replied and said that he can gloat now at this right wing reaction to this massive influx of mostly Muslim migrants but one day, these right wingers could very well turn against one of his loved ones or friends living in the west since they will not be able to distinguish between a Muslim or non-Muslim non-white person or more likely, they would not care since they basically are against any non-white, whatever their religion, ethnicity or national origin.
I know. I was a student in the U.K. in the summer of 1976 when strong anti-immigant sentiment flared up over the arrival of a relative handful of ethnic Indians fleeing persecution and racial prejudice in Malawi. Africa.
Resulting from that, two non-while male students from Mile End were killed in a racist attack in 1976 and two weeks later, a Sikh youth, Gurdip Singh Chagar was stabbed to death by white racists outside a pub in Southall, London.
I did not receive any more of such postings from them after that.
I believe that behind this facade of religious antagonism lies racial prejudices and resentments and such people use their religion to justify and support their racial prejudices.
And. many of such persons are Pakatoons, which I’m sure does not surprise you.
These are the kind people whom I dub “stupid Malaysians”.
Whilst you are right to criticise politicians for using religion to further their political agendas, I however feel you often go too far and tar all Christians with the same brush in a sweeping fashion and in doing so promote hatred towards Christians, whether or not they go along with this or not.
Whilst you are perfectly entitled to question whether the 25th of December actually is the birthday of Jesus on your blog, like many others have done elsewhere, however what is wrong with 25th December being a symbolic date for the celebration of the birth of Jesus, when Malaysia officially celebrates the Agong’s birthday on the first Saturday of June, when none of Malaysia’s 14 Agong’s so far were born in the month of June, and it’s just a official king’s birthday.
This quite frankly is not very different from some dogmatic Protestants who condemn other Christians who observe their weekly sabbath day on a Sunday (the first day), rather than a Saturday (the seventh day of the week), even going so far as to say that those Christians who observe a Sunday sabbath will be condemned to hell for observing the sabbath on the “wrong day”.
Such people place too much emphasis on the letter of the law over the spirit of the law, which is to dedicate a day in the week for the worship of God and their religious obligations.
This of over emphasis on legalism is what Jesus disagreed with in the practice of Judaism of his time when he placed more emphasis on the spiritual aspects of mans’ relationship with God.
So if most of Christianity has accepted that they celebrate the birth of Christ on the 25th of December, why not?
How many times have you held your birthday party on the weekend after so that more friends can attend or held a joint birthday party of several friends born around the same time on a day which is not the exact anniversary of any of your actual birth dates?
It makes one wonder whether people who take issue with that put more importance on the date rather than the birth.
On the other hand, why do people celebrate their being one year closer to death?
re: “Helen, I encounter a number of Christians who forward me stuff which expresses hate or ridicule of Muslims”
A HUGE number. They are the evangelistas.
re: “and I also have some Buddhist and Hindu friends who speak ill of Muslims and Malaysia in private conversation.”
This is unfortunate. They’ve been infected with the ABU virus and brainwashed by the agitprop of the evangelical party to hate.
re: “I do not believe that a ‘us versus them’ attitude solves anything”
They passed the point of no return when they successfully instigated 95 percent of the Chinese to be anti-Umno and anti-PAS (these two parties together representing a bulk of the Malay Muslims).
re: “which can potential lead to bloodshed in Malaysia”
For starters, there’s a need to acknowledge the racial nature of the Low Yat, Kota Raya and Petaling Street/Chinatown symptomatic episodes instead of sticking their Firster heads in the sand.
Their adamant in-denial (and shooting the messenger) is only painting a false picture that prevents the real threat from being properly diagnosed.
re: “e-mail from a Malaysian Christian friend which he forwarded from another Christian who expressed ridicule …”
Precisely. They live in their own echo chamber and are out of touch with/clueless about the mainstream. But they’re so dominant in the English-language social media that they don’t realise their circle jerk.
Part of the insulation comes from the cyber terrorists who shut out alternative, contrary or dissenting views from reaching these Pakatoons. The hit squads do this by character assassinating the critics and fabricating lies all the time.
re: “some of these Arab Christians have joined their fellow Muslim Arabs in armed militia to fight against these Islamists”
The Arab Christians feel they have a stake in their land. The Born Again Christians in Malaysia only want to migrate to Tasmania.
re: “these Arab Christians who have been there since 100 years after the death of Jesus”
Like I said above. The Chinese minorities are birds of passage. They’ll fly at the first whiff of greener pasture. The Vietnamese boat people were mostly ethnic Chinese.
re: “than the views of ‘Johnny come lately’ Christians in Malaysia”
They control the media. So their views are vastly amplified. They’re also vicious cyber bullies.
re: “I believe that behind this facade of religious antagonism lies racial prejudices and resentments”
You’re right about the religious facade. All the tudungs in the world cannot veil the DAP’s reeking antagonism.
re: “and such people use their religion to justify and support their racial prejudices’
They’re loud in proclaiming themselves Christians but deny that they belong to any race. The insistence on their ostensible colour blindness and those navel-gazing Instagrams they love to post and share are nauseating, to say the least.
re: “many of such persons are Pakatoons, which I’m sure does not surprise you”
Three parts DAP, one part PKR and some MCA renegades.
re: “These are the kind people whom I dub ‘stupid Malaysians’.”
Stupidity is forgivable. Not everybody is blessed with intelligence. Bodoh sombong, however, is another matter. Bodoh sombong coupled with delusional is a more potent mix. Throw in their ultra kiasuness and propensity to bully, and what do we have?
re: “I however feel you often go too far and tar all Christians with the same brush in a sweeping fashion”
On the contrary, I’m specific that they’re the Born Agains and linked to DAP. That’s not “all Christians”, is it?
re: “and in doing so promote hatred towards Christians, whether or not they go along with this or not”
The Christians should repudiate the evangelistas like how Muslims repudiate Isis. Why don’t they do this?
re: “So if most of Christianity has accepted that they celebrate the birth of Christ on the 25th of December, why not?”
It’s not the 25th that is at issue. It’s their expropriating Winter Solstice and Saturnalia and the Persians’ birth-of-the-sun belief and other related solstices. They’re so good at purloining that people have forgotten the traditions originated with the older ‘pagan’ religions.
Now they’re hellbent to kebas kalimah Allah. It’s not inconceivable that what happened with Christmas could happen with kalimah Allah. Then the Christians will own ‘Allah’ in the same way that Christmas now owns the Saxon/Celtic/Gaelic/Teutonic festivals with some minor modifications (ubah).
Then to rub salt into the wound, the Christian puritans turn around and deride the Saxons/Celts/Gaels/Teutons as “pagans”. Sneaky bastards!
re: “How many times have you held your birthday party on the weekend after so that more friends can attend”
More Muslim countries will ban Christmas next year.
” They’ve been infected with the ABU virus and brainwashed by the agitprop of the evangelical party to hate. ”
It’s statements like this that make you lose some credibility, Helen. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the idea of proselytizing either but please don’t pretend that the Buddhists and Hindus in this country are squeaky clean and have only recently started speaking ill of Muslims. My earliest memories go back to the early eighties and I can remember many of my dad’s friends, who were not Christians being extremely scathing of Muslims, in private of course.
The general sentiment was that the followers of other creeds were open minded and open to dialogue but the Muslims were viewed as being overly rigid and fanatical. My parents and others have also confirmed this sentiment going way back to the fifties, but of course to a much lesser scale.
Conversely, I have also had experiences with my Malay colleagues who have openly asked me why I have not embraced and converted to Islam, since I have an aunty and two cousins who are Muslim in my family. So let’s not pretend that one group is evil and the others are saintly. Funnily enough, both those cousins have never brought up religion to me, and are probably my favourite cousins because all our conversations tend to be of a secular nature.
I agree that initially you were only being critical of the Evangelicals, but in recent weeks, you seem to be extending that net to all Christians. This is when your blog can start to get dangerous.
re: “in recent weeks, you seem to be extending that net to all Christians”
Then the Christians should repudiate the DAP evangelistas just like peace-loving Muslims around the world have repudiated Isis.
“Then the Christians should repudiate the DAP evangelistas just like peace-loving Muslims around the world have repudiated Isis.”
That’s the thing, it’s not very apparent to many of us. I have never encountered a Bible Christian try to convert me to their denomination and I’m in my late thirties. Neither have any of my friends, so most of us are genuinely unaware of this attempt at mass conversion that you speak about. And how do you repudiate a group? By not voting for them? Perhaps if BN post Dr M had done a better job in governing the country and not mismanaging the economy, many would not have looked for other alternatives.
re: “That’s the thing, it’s not very apparent to many of us.”
Pls refer IT.Scheiss’ original comment that you picked up my “ABU virus” rejoinder from.
It is not apparent to you how hateful your fellow evangelistas are. According to IT.Scheiss, “I encounter a number of Christians who forward me stuff which expresses hate or ridicule of Muslims”, and “an e-mail from a Malaysian Christian friend which he forwarded from another Christian who expressed ridicule at a group of refugees in Europe who refused food on grounds that it was not halal”.
re: “And how do you repudiate a group?”
As one example, let’s use Bersih 4.0 and the churches organizing support for the event.
Christians who are willing to distance themselves from the evangelistas should have voiced their objection to the pastors bringing DAP politics to the pulpit.
They could have objected to Bersih T-shirts being sold in church premises like Jesus’ own example.
They could have objected to the church facilitating transport to the rally, such as booking buses. And objected to any donation drives to collect funding for Bersih.
They can object to church bulletins playing politics. One example post-Bersih is the NCEF’s most recent volume on the Pharoah and Ketuanan. See, https://helenang.wordpress.com/2015/12/18/is-evangelical-body-necf-calling-no-1-the-wicked-pharaoh/
The Herald also carries politically partisan op-eds. I should imagine other church-related publications and recommended reading materials are no better.
re: “Perhaps if BN post Dr M had done a better job in governing the country and not mismanaging the economy, many would not have looked for other alternatives.”
Quite frankly, they’re so gung-ho about ABU that they don’t care about mismanagement. Therefore it’s disingenuous for you to bring up this element as the cause for the voters rejection of BN.
Pro-Pakatan Selangorians put up with the water cuts without a whimper. Selangorians put up with the stench of rubbish despite the garbage disposal being so badly managed. Selangorians put up with killer potholes on the roads. Selangorians put up with DIEG.
Their media were willing to downplay Pakatan controversies and scandals all in the name of protecting the oppo. Voters were willing to overlook shenanigans like Langkah Kajang and Khalid Ibrahim’s ouster.
All because the main agenda comes first – kick out Umno from Putrajaya. Dapsters are consumed with hate. This hate is incited by the evangelistas.
‘If the rest of Malaysia must go to the dogs, then so be it.’
Some wants exactly that. Of course we are not gonna let them have it their way, do we?!
Actually, it is not about what the Virgin Mary looked like/that it is an image of the artistic depiction of the Virgin Mary, that it is divine and neither is it about creating civil war. It is about getting specialists in to conduct an investigation on what it is and how it came to be. Everything else you are talking about is irrelevant.
Some grownups circle stones! That’s even worst!
Please use another nick the next time, thanks.
“this Virgin Mary is being used to topple the government of Malaysia?”
Did you just write this? Really??
Bar tutup ke brader??
He will be here everyday regardless of the topic of discussion until he gets his Kiwi or Aussie PR which I m afraid is……………l o l !
The Christians were doing something which relates to their own religion only. However farcial or nonsensical it may be they are not stepping on anyone.The Muslims on the other hand are forcing their views on others. Typical Ketuanan Melayu-Islam shit. I know you bend over for your Malays masters but sometimes I think all that banging must have dislodged you brain cells.
re: “sometimes I think all that banging must have dislodged you brain cells”
I think you’re going to throw yourself off the cliff with the rest of the demented lemmings.
Occasionally some evangelista will pay you a visit this time it’s this Vincent chap l o l
They sent a clansman ‘Ang’, ROTFL.
Yeah I was aware of the clansman thing, only difference being that your Ang has the capital A while his ang is the minor ‘a’ l o l Maybe he’s just a minor coming here to do some target practice, a new recruit perhaps ? l o l
re:..”Typical Ketuanan Melayu-Islam shit”. I’m offended.Being a Melayu-Islam I’m taught to respect every beings.But in this case I dare to retaliate with this “Vincent,you’re shit all right”.
I hope you are offended. Now you know how the nons feels when you Ketuanan Melayu-Islam bastards kick them around.
ALL my architect and developer friends unanimously agrees that the design of the roof is nonsensical unless it was deliberately designed to potray a cross. Some desperate christian architect must have collected quite some sins and trying to score major brownie points with the man upstairs. But not as funny as the kind of awe and devotion is shown by the sheeples to a partially dirty window. I seriously would understand if it is in the sky or on the face of a hill. Might be some priest’s niece need some dough to cut a demo. What do i know right. Some S8 from Amway will work wonders on that stain.
You seem to have some inside knowledge regarding the fact that it is just “a partially dirty window”. Please explain where you got this information from and why this is the conclusion. Thanks
Stain on windows? Common sense, highest probability and first hand observation of watching the condensation on my office windows. I might be able to rope along one or two professional window cleaners if you need expert opinions. S8? My friendly neighborhood Amway dealer. :p
Btw these divine images, weeping statues and stigmatas are hoaxes,i ve read somewhere, about 95% of the time they were put to scientific test. The other 5% is either inconclusive or not tested due to religious sensitivities. So don’t get yr hopes up…
“Btw these divine images, weeping statues and stigmatas are hoaxes,i ve read somewhere,”
Reading it in Utusan doesn’t count, AE. Try harder.
Not just somewhere….everywhere. I got the utusan link….u want? Hahaha
In none of the articles did I see the 95% figure that you quoted which suggests that you probably pulled it out of your …
Also, going to news sources that by default are skeptical of anything supernatural to proof your point is hardly what we call being objective. The first link even has the word sceptic on it.
Nobody is denying that there a lot of hoaxes, but not one of the links you posted actually states conclusively that anything has been debunked. Fatima was one of them that was reported by the secular media present and witnessed by 70,00+ people.
Try harder, AE..
Read the second one. I know u didnt. Its long and its boring. The only weeping idol the vatican ever confirmed will never have any experiment done on it,ever! Everything else never confirmed or denied even tho the vatican have their miracle investigation dept. Makan tithe buta ke tak reti buat kerja?Apa kes? Goyang takut kena debunked?
Of course i will take sceptics views rather than sheeples because if you discover a turd under a crucified idol you all will call it THE HOLY SHIT! Remember, i m not here to help u understand your religion. I just want to show the manmade lies that it is. If u try harder u would see it.
‘Of course i will take sceptics views rather than sheeples….Remember, i m not here to help u understand your religion. I just want to show the manmade lies that it is.”
If an atheist with a materialistic worldview said this, I would be ok with it.
But coming from a Muslim who believes in flying winged horses, I find your comment to be hilarious.
In the midst of all this, a DAP leader has come out with a stupid statement about “crosses” at KLIA, the same fellow who purportedly said that MH370 would be found if DAP were in charge, or something like that.
The runways at KLIA do not resemble the crosses of the Christians at all! Trust these evangelists to muddy the waters.
DAP dan politik kebencian memang tiada tolok banding!!
Puki PAS dan UMNO dengan politik KetuanaN Melayu-Islam bangsat.
What is the problem over the cross-like symbol on top of houses and the Mary image? Consider the facts below:-
1. The symbols and image are situated within private properties.
2. Both properties are not house of worship i.e. church.
How do we draw the line to measure the degree of religious sensitivity? Should there be a permissible distance between the image of a cross and the eye-sight of Muslims? 2km? 5km? Or 10km?
The aerial view of KLIA is indeed a cross shape.
The Tudung Index is an informal measure of the degree of Muslim conservatism in our society. During the time when Siti Hasmah was a girl, the majority of Malay women did not wear tudung. Today, the Tudung Index has already maxed out.
Perhaps it can be replaced by a Crucifix Index, i.e. frequency of sightings of the cross.
‘Today, the Tudung Index has already maxed out.’
Bisnis tudung meletup Helen!
‘Pelakon dan pengacara jelita, Neelofa Noor, 26, mengaut keuntungan berlipat kali ganda selepas tudung keluarannya di bawah jenama Naelofar Hijab (NH) memperoleh hasil jualan sebanyak RM50 juta tahun ini. – See more at: http://m.utusan.com.my/berita/nasional/jualan-naelofar-hijab-cecah-rm50-juta-1.170192#sthash.Gh3uOHNt.dpuf
‘The businessman said there are some four to five million Muslim women aged between 25 and 50 years as of 2010, estimating that about 80 to 90 per cent of them wear the tudung and that between two and three million Muslim women in that age group are middle-income earners.
Fareeda’s retail prices range from RM80 to RM250 for adults and from RM60 to RM250 for children aged between five and 12 years. Customised headscarves can cost upwards of RM200.
– See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/tudung-industry-in-malaysia-cashing-in-on-conservative-islam#sthash.0X88uMKR.dpuf
Oh my the beverage merchant drinho is here again.
spectre & islam1st,
Yes. I am here. Care to comment on my points or the links?
l o l
Let say we take your “Crucifix Index”. What is the formula? Measureable by naked eyes? From the perspective of Muslims? What is the permissible distance between a cross and the observer?
KLIA cross yes, crucifix no, alright. But the roofs of the houses in Langkawi bear the image of the crucifix, not just any cross.
Itu pun tak faham ke?
There are also a sizeable number of near naked people who wear the crucifix around their necks.
“But the roofs of the houses in Langkawi bear the image of the crucifix”
Looks more like a scarecrow to me.
Mr. A will say ‘crucifix’. Mr. B will say ‘scarecrow’. Mr. C will say “architectural design’. I will say ‘Don’t bother the shape. Get a life and move on’.
We sukak(or rather tak suka). And when we decided suka or not over some things. It got changed. Thats how we lead our lives around here. You not happy? Stop the unnecessary jealousy already.
Whether you like it or not, the cross symbol or any lookalike image (whether intentional or not) exists everywhere in Msia. You can get the developer to repaint the air wells in Kedah. What about other places? Recent example is the Taman Medan church. Despite the protest, the cross is now reinstated. The protest is proven to be futile. You want to go around and tip-off the authorities to remove any cross? Or organise protest with overzealous Muslims in front of any premises that display a cross?
re: “the cross is now reinstated”
Where is this reported?
KJ’s response on the issue:
I didn’t know you were a fan of KJ’s …
Not a KJ’s fan. But a fan of his response.
What say you?
Creepy … the crosses on the roof, I mean.
‘He also said that nobody could deny the church its symbol of faith. – See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/cross-to-rise-again-in-taman-medan#sthash.HMAN28kK.dpuf
They are waiting for signs la. Masih tunggu lagi kut. Anyway yang ni yang best sekali. Nobody could stop the Cs in this country. Not even the law. How classy.
‘He also said that nobody could deny the church its symbol of faith. – See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/cross-to-rise-again-in-taman-medan#sthash.HMAN28kK.dpuf
We waste too much time on stupid issues, says KJ
Golly, the KJ fan club congregates.
See drinho’s comment as well.
Apologies. I didn’t see drinho’s comment.
Sudah terang lagi bersuluh Helen. Ketua Pemuda comes GE14 kena bertanding kat Bukit Bintang or Bangsar. Mari kita tengok his kakis will vote for him or not??
“And (remember) when the angels said: ‘O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah has chosen you, purified you (from falsehood and egotism), and chosen you above the women of the world (of your lifetime).’ ”
(Quran, Ali Imran: v.42)
“And mention in the Book, Maryam, when she withdrew from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen from them; then We sent to her our Angel (Jibril/Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in human form.
She said: ‘I seek refuge with The Most Beneficent [Lord] from you, if you will fear Him!’
(The angel) said: ‘I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.’
She said: ‘How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?’
He (the angel) said: ‘So it shall be, for your Lord has said: ‘That is easy for Me:- And to appoint him as a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah)’, and such is the matter decreed (by the Lord).’ ”
(Quran, Maryam: v.16-21)
One more thing Helen Ang I really hope to see you someday so that I can really put the Ang into you so as to remind you of who you really are.
I am Chinese.
Your pathetic “colour blind” lot – the “beyond race” Dapsters, konon – are raceless.
How pitiful that you’re all willing to pawn your patrimony just so that the evangelistas can enjoy their perks and power. How smart is that?
You do not get the into eh? Pathetic Malay cum whore. Get it now?
The thing is, it does not matter whether this image is divine or not, the questions that should be asked are:
1. Is an investigation regarding what it is being conducted by scientists/specialists?
2. Is an investigation regarding how this image came to be being conducted by scientists/specialists?
Everything I read here is just pure speculation since no-one here is an authority on this phenomenon.
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