Kalau dia orang yang nak, perkara itu “non-issue”. Kalau orang lain yang buat, ia akan dianggap isu besar.
Bagi Uskop Paul Tan untuk berkata “a non-issue really” membayangkan keangkuhan pemimpin gereja tersebut serta penganut-penganut Kristian yang sewaktunya. Mereka mengkehendaki orang lain mengikut landasan dan kayu ukur mereka tentang apa yang hak dan apa yang batil.
Saya sebagai seorang bukan Islam pun mengetahui bahawa perebutan kalimah Allah adalah merupakan isu yang sebesar-besarnya.
Malah ada pejuang jihad yang sanggup mati syahid demi mempertahankan kesucian kalimah Allah.
Uskop itu berkata tiada negara lain dunia kecuali Malaysia yang melarang golongan bukan Islam menggunakan kalimah Allah.
(Ini mungkin kerana tiada negara lain di mana kaum Muslimnya begitu sabar sekali – cuba tengok kalau pemimpin Kristian di Pakistan atau di mana-mana negara Islam yang lain sering menghasut macam Lim Guan Eng, apa akan terjadi kepadanya. Juga negara yang mana ada kaum minoriti yang berperangai macam Dapster?)
Tambah Uskop Paul lagi, seramai 10-12 juta orang Kristian Arab menggunakannya.
Hujah Uskop Paul Tan kurang mantap. Meskipun 10-12 juta orang Kristian Arab menggunakan kalimah Allah gara-gara bahasa Arab adalah bahasa ibunda mereka, kenapa kita tidak dikhabarkan bahawa 2 bilion penganut Kristian yang lain turut menggunakannya.
Lagipun pemahaman tentang Tuhan Yang Satu di kalangan 2.1 bilion Muslim di seluruh dunia yang menggelar-Nya sebagai Allah berbeza dengan pemahaman tentang Tuhan Triniti yang disembah 10-12 juta orang Kristian Arab itu.
Adakah sebuah gereja akan digelar Rumah Allah, dan Jesu digelar Anak Allah di bumi Malaysia nanti?
Helen Ang 
Spewing more rubbish ex cathedra by claiming it is covered by the infallibility clause again it seems
Shame on you Paul Tan! “The hottest places in hell” will be reserved for you it seems. As you judge others, so shall you be judged!
For centuries, Christians in Islamic countries have been using the word Allah without stirring up any storm … Bishop Paul Tan.
It’s about time that we should put a stop this issues for good. We should follows what the prophet had taught i.e. to look into the Sunnah nabi and the Al Quran for guidance whenever there are any “Akidah” issues such as the current Christian – Islam kalimah Allah tug-a-war. Looking back into the Islamic historical events there was an incidence where the Christian Arabs of Najran came to see Prophet Muhammad SAW to inquire or do debates concerning Islam and Christianity differences.
Despites of most of their question being accurately answered by Rasulullah, they are still remained in ignorant or refused to give in while claiming that they are correct.
They had come to the point where the issues is “stalemated”, to that the prophet received command from Allah via Jibril (Gabriel). You may refer to surah Al Imran 3:61 “But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the CURSE OF ALLAH ON THE LIARS”
This was revealed during the time of the debate or “Mubahela”….between our Prophet (SAW), and the Christians of Najran.
We learned that these Najran Christian Arabs had backed off from doing the said MUBAHALAH. Their refusal had in a way provide the obvious answers don’t you think so? Bishop Paul may want to ask himself whether HE would dare to do the MUBAHALAH with us the MUSLIM?
Tuan paderi Paul ada berani ?
What do you expevt, his former big boss is a Hitler Youth member for life and ringleader of paedophiles. The Catholics Church fork tongue have allowed to get away from heinous crimes, and playing with Allah issue in Muslim majority Malaysia is childs play to them.
Shows an insensitive and selfish Bishop.
Some more lying. As if, people do not know their intention is to proselytise Muslims in Semananjung.
They insist that it should apply to all over the country and not merely to Christian Pribumi of Sabah and Sarawak.
Anti Fake,
If the bishop refuses to accept the law of the land, please pack up and find another country. If you are not willing to accord respect to the “lord of the house”, then out you go.
No worry, there is an opening for Bishops like Paul in Rome!
Pope Paul Tan, classic eh?
Hi Paul,
Your behaviour un christian, i think. You forgot the teaching of Jesus,of love, of turning the other cheek..
Why go into confrontation when our Muslims scholars have said “Syirik”..The Christians here are not Arab…why insist on Arab name for God.
38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. —Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV
Hello Paulie, Kalau nak sangat kalimah Allah, then Abraham tukar to Ibrahim, Moses tukar Musa, etc. etc. etc. Senang cerita, bible tukar jadi Quran. Kristian tukar jadi Islam lah. [edited]
saya sokong statement di atas ~ lepas tukar ptut boleh jadi aman skit dunia nie, tp kne makesure vatican sanction yer~ then poper leh jadi Grand Mufti of Christendom. Sorry if i’ve insulted the christian in here…
Yo Paul. Some, who are delusional bordering stupid may believe you but the majority sees through your lies. I suspect the Vatican also agrees with me.
Helen, Please do some research on the usage of the word Allah. I understand that God in Arabic Language is ALLAH. That’s why, in the Middle East, the word Allah is being used. In Bahasa Malaysia, God is TUHAN. So why not use the word TUHAN. Everybody will understand this word.
Tuhan is a generic term i.e having to do with or characteristic of a genus, kind or class e.g fluid while Allah is a specific term e.g milk.
How come this bishop is unaware of the plethora of evidences already put forward by the muslims as to why his request cannot be accepted.
And the reason he is putting up now had been explained again and again as inadmissable/non applicable in the Malaysian case.
Only one thing I know: typical Bodoh Sombong.
I repost the comment I’ve made in previous article with little modifications(Dr.M: yang memperalatkan agama akan dimakan agama).
There might be so many reasons behind this rule and one of them is a proactive measure to avoid religious conflict. Someone may ask…how can freedom to use the word of Allah can start a religious conflict ? The answer is, when someone abuse the freedom by making fun of it. It will surely cause a serious implication.
All these kind of rules are the one that making Malaysian in this multi-racial country living in harmony. There maybe religious reason behind it, but keeping the country in a harmony by closing all the possibilities that can incite a racial/religious conflict is one of them and as a Malaysian, I’m happy with it.
What is the point of freedom if you can’t live in harmony.
To those who commented, my question is if you have read the entire article?
My take is, having different religions should not divide us but be a uniting factor (we can be of different beliefs but harmonious as one).
The uniting factor should be continue in praying for our country, for peace, unity and justice to prevail. For more good politicians to rise up to replace the corrupted ones.
I tried finding a video which I watched recently but could not find. It’s about a close relationship between a mosque and a church in Egypt. The cleric visited the church and gave a short speech. It moved all the crowd in tears as it showed the solidarity between Muslims and Christians in Egypt in helping each other.
Also, I remembered Muslims protecting Christians and vice versa during Egypt’s revolution last year so that each can pray ie. people forming human shield.
What united the Muslim and Christian? I believe is love.
Brownny;
Are you just landed from planet MARS…You are taking Egypt as an example of Muslims and Christians living in harmony, they protect each other….
In Egypt, the Christians Copts were heavily discriminated, they live in shanty areas and their daily jobs collecting garbage…
Compare that with the Christisns living over here. If you are blind, please pack your bags and go to Egypt then.
There is none so blind, as he who will not see…
Goondoo and Helen,
Pack your bags and go to Egypt ? As a Sarawakian Iban Christian (not Catholic) I have the luxury of staying in Sarawak. My kind form the majority in our State. My bible refers to my God as Allah. Please come over to Sarawak and try and burn my bible. While you’re at it, please state your case to us why we should stay in the Federation and accept your point of view.
head hunter, the use of allah in ibanland (sabah /sarawak) in not the problem, the goverment has no problem with, it as it was the case before merdeka, but in semenanjug people trying to drag in the ibans in to their politics.
But most iban i work with knows this , so can only assume that you are either on of the stupids ones, not an iban or ravin ‘smoking LGE micro sotong’, and just like a Dap’s zahril k. j., a hijacker of people ethnicity.
Wank by the way is the pope want call his god m#%he@ focker, it is his wish, i have no problem. but his flock will shove one up his anus.
On the same note if the pope want to desecrate my god , well what do think, i will do.
I’m new to this blog. It’s full of colourful characters like you. Just as I can’t/won’t prove to you that I’m Iban, neither can you prove otherwise. So let’s keep our discourse rational and civil. Don’t you agree, Helen ?
Well, welcome to the bog, sorry if i sound too harsh . i was flushing for ‘DaPsshole that’ are now are now evolving with many names.
Hang around long enough ,and one will appear. ;)
“I’m new to this blog.”
Something feels so… displaced here. I sense familiarity.
Oh well. Time will tell, as always.
Bro,
I think the issue has been politicized by certain quarters for political expediency. I abhor the fact that the usage of the word is used as “the” reason to justify the call to Catholics to vote out BN.
As I’ve mentioned in my previous comments on other threads, Sarawak’s bishops i.e. John Ha, Peter Chung, Joseph Hii, Dominic Su & Anthony Lee practiced restraint in commenting over this issue. While here in West Malaysia, Archbishop Murphy acted with decorum, dignity & grace by asking all to be calm & leave it to the courts to decide.
As an interim solution, the government through Idris Jala announced steps to address the issue including ensuring East Malaysians can continue to use the word in question.
As such, seeing the clergy preaching from the pulpit extolling the goodness of PR & telling the people that they must vote for them is wrong. The church should remain apolitical.
As for Paul Tan, he should be aware that pronouncements ex cathedra (from the (bishop’s) throne) is covered by the “infallibility clause”. As Catholics, we must never forget how this man made clause has been misused many times over centuries for personal interest.
As for the “colourful” language here, there are no excuses to justify them. In fact, I’ve used some pretty strong industrial language too. Nevertheless, sometimes the words overshadow the crux of the message they wanna send out so just ignore the words if you can.
Anyways, welcome to the blog. And in case you’re wondering, auk, kamek miak Sarawak juak.
Just curious, what about Ibans working in Peninsular? Can they use the word Allah? or even those who came over and have stayed here. Would like to know. Thanks!
I have attended BM masses here in KL, specifically in St Anthony’s Pudu, St Francis of Assisi Cheras & CDM Shah Alam. The term Allah is still used in the context of the Liturgical & Eucharistic celebration.
Similarly I’ve attended English masses in KL as well. And along the way I’ve met a few priest who conveniently replaced the word God with Allah. We can only speculate on their reasons for doing so.
As for bibles in BM, I don’t see a problem with the request that a cross is placed on the cover of the bible. After all, since we believe it contains the word of God, why make a fuss over the symbol of salvation for Christians? As for the suggestion that all bibles are stamped & serialized with numbers, I personally feel that that would be a step too far. There’s no need to add fuel to the fire by that as inevitably there will be quarters claiming that such acts would be tantamount to desecration.
As it is, the status quo remains pending the disposal of the court case. The Herald still uses the term Allah in their weekly publication too. As such, I believe figures like Paul Tan & LGE jumped the gun with their numerous statements on the issue. However well thought Paul Tan’s arguments are, he should reserve that for his day in court. As a direct consequence of these actions, we see the admittedly worrying but wholly understandable reaction from Ibrahim Ali & a few others in oral retaliation.
With all due respect to Christians using BM as their primary language in worship, I’ve had the privilege of helping out in Sunday school instruction. I was assigned Holy Communion class in BM for 2 years due to a lack of BM speaking instructors. Doing a lot of research as a result of my unfamiliarity, I rarely if ever come across the word Allah when poring over resources in BM for the class. Then again, over that period of time, I probably only touched the tip of the iceberg.
Ultimately, yes the matter has dragged on in the corridors of our courts for a while now but that’s no excuse for anyone to cause consternation or incite hatred over the usage of the term.
The only court case that made it to the Mahkamah Majistret under the said state enactment was in Temerloh, Pahang (a married Indian was coercing his female Malay girlfriend/mistress? to renounce her faith) in 2002.
It wasn’t a case for prohibiting the usage of Allah.
The key issue here is the same as the Border’s case – whether the Ministry of Home Affairs should enforce the respective state laws in toto (syariah and civil). The real problem here is its enforcibility (which btw the states have different lists) because the denial of use in print can only be through federal laws (i.e. printing press act) or at the specific discretion of the Minister. Denial of VERBAL use sounds a little silly.
The Publication and Quranic Texts Control Division under the Ministry is ultimately the one responsible to determine if the circular to the Herald was misguided or misinformed. Since the MHA clearly could not regulate the day-to-day usage of Allah (that’s stupid), it can only act under the prescribed laws for publications in print or in circulation. The key question here is that what kind of settlement or agreement can be reached between the Herald and the MHA at this juncture. Pakiam’s earlier unhappiness with MHA stems from the fact that the Ministry wanted to stop the Malay section of the Herald when the case was in the courts, and I wasn’t too sure if the other two conditions (sold in Churches and labelled for Christiams only) were problematic. I assume the status quo stands because MHA lost their case and the Herald resumed its publication, which now goes online.
The PR is divided over the use of Allah in Malay bibles, lets be clear on the matter. Our arrangement in the past has been consistent in the manner which Malay-language bibles are allowed in Sabah and Sarawak, THAT was a long standing compromise. Today, by provoking the issue of Allah and the use of Malay bibles, that solution is no longer tenable. The said state enactments are being urged for gazette in Penang, Federal Territories, Sabah and Sarawak. These are NOT syariah laws but civil ones and are applicable to non-Muslims. By forcing the issue, the Church is also forcing the hand of the politicians / the government. This is a leveraging point which caught BN by surprise, and PR decided to go with the more liberal option.
I have a feeling our politicians don’t really care about the Malay bibles anyway, but if it is a flashpoint that might cost them votes, I fear appeasing 60% of the population is far easier than the minorities when it comes down to the maths (hence the urging to gazette the enakmen kawalan dan sekatan). I think BN won the who blinked first game and PAS is clearly now feeling the brunt of DSAI’s decision. I think the message has already made and a combative pastor like Paul Tan is helping UMNO everyday with their insensitive demands.
I doubt any religion can claim any exclusive use of a word, but I would like to remind Christians, terutamanya penganut-penganut agama Kristian yang menggunakan kitab injil berbahasa Melayu boleh memahami kenapa perkara ini menjadi satu isu kepada orang-orang Melayu di Semenanjung. Selagi enakmen kawalan dan sekatan itu ada di negeri-negeri berkenaan, maka orang Melayu berasa kuasa Islam telah tercabar dan terhakis. Saya rasa kita boleh bertolak-ansur, selagi kitab Melayu Injil ada lambang salib atau label agama Kristian, itu sudah memadai. Persoalannya, apakah jalan tengah yang dicari oleh kedua-dua belah pihak? Now, the problem is the disconnect between state and federal laws which made enforcement problematic and loopey. If the Islamic authorities get their act together and federal laws were passed to prohibit the use of Allah by non-muslims in non-Islamic religious texts, you think the Herald would be so lucky again?
Beringat sebelum kena, berjimat sebelum habis. If the Chinese, like the Christians, exhaust all goodwill with the Malays, they wouldn’t be too enthusiastic to keep everyone happy. Kalimah Allah and DAP is doing much more for Malay unity than UMNO and PAS combined.
re: “the Chinese … exhaust all goodwill with the Malays”.
Precisely and most unfortunately so under the leadership of DAP 2.0. I’ve been saying for quite sometime now that Guan Eng is al-Nakba.
Hey Fake Calvin, I hate n’sync,
Thanks for your reply. I must it was a good one!
Better not to jump the gun and allow the court to decide.
Practice tolerance and guard our hearts.
Do not be deceive by people who politicized the matters till the extend one felt threaten about his or her faith.
Ultimately, when one must be secure and be strong in his or her faith.
God will have the final verdict.
Let me share a sneak preview of sorts with you all. The Catholic church here in KL is actually insecure about “defections” to the Muslim faith. Will share in greater detail when the blog subject is relevant.
Goondoo..I’m not surprised by your ‘name” as it already reflected your absolute “goondoo-ness”!
My comparison was during the revolution in Egypt, both Muslims and Christian rose up to fought and stand against a common enemy; which is those who are corrupted in the their government.
You should read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sumbul-alikaramali/egyptian-muslims-egyptian_b_818829.html
Also, you cannot deny that there are Muslims and Christians who are truly living harmony now in Egypt eventhough there may be different places in Egypt which have discrimination.
Also, you comment of Re: If you are blind, please pack your bags and go to Egypt then, sounded like a cavemen who have no access to internet technology to do research from a by-partisan view.
Browny
Yelah… after that they start to kill each other..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19089474
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/03/201138211326148908.html
Ini macam kah u mau happen in Malaysia … Follow Egypt lah
and then slaughter each other.
At least in not so perfect Malaysia, there was no religious riot happened in Malaysia, no Christian being killed because of their Christian faith, right…
Those who are true to their purest form of religion will love and love lives. Hence, peace will prevail. There is no fear in love. I sincerely believe no religion promotes the killing of another human beings. If there is, let me know which one and why? Only extremists does that. An act of terror doesn’t mean all people in the same faith are like that.
People who kills and thinking that they are doing God a favor will face their Creator one day and I wonder what will their Creator say to them. God doesn’t need our favor.
Goondoo, if you don’t want these clashes to happen here, then I hope you’re praying to your God for peace in our nation.
Brownny,
“Goondoo, if you don’t want these clashes to happen here, then I hope you’re praying to your God for peace in our nation.”
Praying to God is not enough, understanding the root cause of any religious clashes and try to prevent it shall be the way to go.
If praying to God is sufficient, how come God did not stop when Rwanda Christians were killing each other. They prayed in the same church but were slaughtered because they look different.
In Egypt, they look the same, but was killed because of their religion. In Malaysia, you look different, you speak different, your culture different, your religion different and yet for hundreds of years we can leave in peace…
Tak rasa bersyukur ke…kena pray to your God and bersyukur dengan apa yang ada…bukan begitu..
re: understanding the root cause of any religious clashes and try to prevent it shall be the way to go.
Goondoo, this I have to agree with you.
Brownny..
You agree with me this. goood, can you tell that to your bishop.
Will the Christians become less Christian if they did not use the word Allah?
If they insist, why stop at using the Allah, why not say also Allah is one and Jesus was a prophet of God..
After all we muslims are better follower of Jesus than you. We get ourself circumcised as Jesus, we did not eat pork as Jesus and we prayed as Jesus had prayed. We believed in Jesus and no muslim is a muslim if they denied Jesus.In Quran, Jesus name was mentioned 154 time, many many time more than Prophet Muhammad.
In Mesir (Egypt for you), the population were entirely (almost that is) made up of Arabs or Semitics if you like. Some Arabs were Muslims, some Arabs were Christian and some were even Jewish. They all use Arabic language and script in their daily life. So, they use the same word for their Quran or Bibles or love letters. See no problem there in the Middle East.
Here, we are so different, some were Chinese Chinese who converse in Chinese language, some were Indian Indian conversing in all their Indian dialects and some others AngloIndian or AngloChinese who malu to talk Chinese or Indian(?) etc…etc…. who speak omputih at home and abroad (the house) and were labelled the ‘saved one’.
See so much difference it will take too much space to story all.
So why not you think or pore over some other journals than the Flash Gordon vehicle, Hapakdaily type or the more academically inclined read for yourself for one time and make a personal rational conclusion ah? Can kan?
Kurang ajar bishop ni. Dah lah menipu kononnya kristian Di Malaysia sudah memakai perkataan Allah Dari Kurun ke 17. Kurang ajar betul!! Tak da isu dia kata.
Read the New Straits Times. Saturday 16 February 2013. Page 29.’Protests put S’pore at political risk.’ The Star. Saturday 16 February 2013 Page 25.Seah Chiang Nee Column.
5,000 person protested against the Singapore Population White Paper. The DAP has not got the academic qualifications and intellect of Lee Kuan Yew who as a one man over 55 year ruler over Singapore failed with his policies. The DAP will make it 10 times worse for Malaysia. DAP go home !
Masalah disini adalah bukan kristian, tapi masalah disini adalah cina yang menganuti agama kristian.
Paul Tan mungkin adalah penganut kristian, namun sifat kiasu beliau tetap masih ada.
Dan hari itu beliau menyalahkan Ibrahim Ali, Tun Mahathir etc akan kononnya mereka adalah punca keretakkan keharmonian kaum di Malaysia.
Wujudnya orang seperti Paul Tan, maka wujudnya pula orang seperti Ibrahim ali etc.
Bak kata orang – punggung sendiri belum basuh, apa pasal mau sebok punggung orang lain.
indahrupa,
“Wujudnya orang seperti Paul Tan, maka wujudnya pula orang seperti Ibrahim ali etc.”
Siapa yang terlebih dahulu menonjolkan diri? Bukankah Ibrahim Ali yang menubuhkan Perkasa selepas PRU Mac 2008 dan mula menonjolkan diri. Paul Tan hanya 3 tahun lalu mula bersuara kerana kes kalimah Allah di Mahkamah Tinggi.
Wonder what Bishop Paul would say should some animists who worship the sun call the sun Lord Jesus.
Excellent!
Turn the tables. If Bishop Paul says “it is clear that to forbid anyone from using any word for that Absolute Almighty is to fall into irrationality and absurdity”, that I can – by the same token – choose to call anything that I worship as my ‘God’ by the name of Jesus too.
So if I worship Tua Pek Kong, I shall call Him Jesus.
I believe what Bishop Paul said was that if the Christians want to address their God as “Allah” then they should not be prevented from doing so. By the same token, if you want to worship your Tua Pek Kong as “Jesus” and so be it – you should have the freedom to do so and no one should be able to stop you from doing so.
Ok. The Pakatan idea of ‘freedom of religion’ is one that gives me the right to call my God by whatever name pleases me.
So I choose to call him Jesus. By Bishop Paul’s logic, that is fine.
But then what if I start talking to Christians and I tell Christians that this (picture below) is what Jesus looks like. And I tell Christians that they need to put my ‘Jesus’ (who is their Jesus too) on an altar and that they should pray to our Jesus with joss sticks. How, can?
Helen
How did you make the leap from calling your God by whatever name to telling the Christians what to do in their Churches ? And at the same time using the term “logic” in the same breath ? I don’t the Bishop is trying to tell the Muslims how to pray.
Wait, some clarification is needed here. There is no state law forbidding the word Allah for the Christians in Sarawak or Sabah. The words are only banned in majority Peninsula Malaysia states which has gazetted the related laws i.e. enakmen kawalan dan sekatan – a non-syariah but civil law passed by our ADUNs.
Also, technically, there is no law controlling the usage of Allah in Malaysia except the ones specified under the respective state laws (as mentioned above), which in itself can be challenged under provisions in our constitution. The Herald’s case is being used to test the waters.
There are two ways we can go about this, if we are serious. ADUNs in PR-controlled states can repeal the state enactments in question because they are state laws and not federal ones. Hal ehwal Islam adalah di bawah kuasa negeri, bukan persekutuan.
End of story.
Thanks for putting the case so explicitly.
For the record, I had earlier blogged (in relation to the DUMC controversy):
(24 Ogos 2011)
Helen,
You may address your Tua Pek Kong with whatever name, including ‘Jesus’. There is no directive from the Church prohibiting non-Christians from using the word ‘Jesus’. Even if there is, the said directive is not enforceable on non-Christians. So, you need not afraid to use the word Jesus. Go ahead.
You still can go around and tell Christians that your Tua Pek Kong is ‘Jesus’. But the real and conscious Christians will be able to differentiate between the their Jesus and you Jesus (Tua Pek Kong). You have your faith, the Christians have theirs. No issue.
But you are definitely not allowed to go into a Church and put your Tua Pek Kong (Jesus) at the altar. Similarly, you cannot instruct the Christians in the Church to burn chopsticks for your Tua Pek Kong (Jesus). You are not allowed to dictate how other people pray!!!!!! No offense to you, Helen but I think that you have ridiculed yourself by asking such question.
Bottomline, as what you have said “Ok. The Pakatan idea of ‘freedom of religion’ is one that gives me the right to call my God by whatever name pleases me.” That is exactly the position of law in Malaysia as per the High Court judgement as long as there is no proselytization on Muslims. We have a separate set of laws to deal with evangelist.
Uskop Paul Tan harus bertanya pada diri sendiri apakah tindakan yg diambil itu, dia begitu yakin boleh menyelesaikan masalah yg ada? Sebab dari pengalaman lepas walaupun pihak gereja “berjaya” dari sudut perundangan ternyata masalah mmg akan bertambah. Kesannya akan beRtambah ramai melAhirkan orang seperti Ibrahim Ali kelak ! Tidak kah kita semua tahu bahawa tidak lah mudah utk memuaskan hati semua orang?
Lagi pun isu ini amat unik kerana “perkara” yg dijadikan isu adalah kalimah Allah sendiri. Sedangkan terdapat begitu ramai dikalangan orang Islam sendiri begitu jahil ttg Pencipta sendiri dan pengalaman menunjukkan masih ramai orang-orang Islam sendiri mengabaikan solat 5 waktu. Sbb sekiranya mereka benar2 kenal Pencipta sudah tentu mereka begitu gerun utk meninggal perkara yg wajib didalam rukun Islam itu. Inikan pula orang bukan Islam, sudah tentu mereka langsung tidak faham apa yg mereka minta sebenarnya. Tidak mustahil patung yg sedia ada didalam gereja atau kuil pun mereka akan namakan dgn kalimah Allah. Nauzubillah !!!
Kemarahan umat Islam yg tidak dapat dibendung itu adalah manifestasi kepada takutnya orang Islam dgn dosa syirik. Orang bukan Islam harus faham, mendiamkan diri bererti kami setuju dgn kehendak orang bukan Islam utk kalimah Allah akhirnya dijadikan berhala ditempat ibadah mereka. Tidak ada orang Islam yg waras yg akan mendiamkan diri sekiranya ini terjadi. Kami lebih rela mati dari membiarkan keadaan itu terjadi !!!
Orang bukan Islam cuma ada dua pilihan :
1. Lupakan perkara yg tidak senonoh ini dan teruskan menyembah ikut seperti mana datuk moyang kamu sembahyang dulu. Logiknya sebarang pindaan dgn cara “sembahyang” kalian skrg akan menunjukkan ada banyak kesilapan didalam “agama” kamu itu. Sbb itu jangan marah kalau kita panggil kitab kamu itu kitab yg kamu modified sendiri. Atau lebih tepat lagi ugama agak-agak ! (Entah betul atau tidak)
2. Sekiranya mereka begitu inginkan kalimah Allah itu dijadikan sebagai Pencipta yg disembah. Belajar dgn orang Islam atau badan Islam siapa Allah yg sebenarnya? Kenali sifat-sifat Pencipta dan fahami apa yg boleh dan tidak layak bagi Pencipta.
Adalah tidak benar Allah adalah Tuhan yg khas utk orang Melayu sahaja, buktinya sudah ramai orang Cina dan India yg sudah terima Allah sebagai Pencipta mereka kerana mereka ini sudah mengikuti kursus dgn PERKIM. – Masuk Islam tak ada siapa yang akan marah punya !
Sebaliknya jika KAMU masih berdegil utk menggunakan undang-undang atau paksaan terhadap kami ttg penggunaan kalimah Allah itu; kita terpanggil utk menggunakan kaedah yg disyorkan sendiri olih Pencipta yaitu Allah utk melakukan MUBAHALAH. Kaedah ini adalah ULTIMATUM supaya semua manusia boleh lihat sendiri samada kamu benar-benar ada TELOR atau sekadar nak menjadi busy body sahaja. Kesannya memang buruk sekiranya kamu sememangnya seorang penipu atau jahil ttg perkara yg kamu tuntut itu.
Apa Uskop Paul Tan kamu ada berani ke? Ajakla kawan-kawan kamu yg lain tu sekali seperti timbalan presiden Majlis Gurdwara Malaysia Jagir Singh; dan Sing Kan dan Prematilaka KD Serisena untuk agama Buddha dan Rev Thomas Philips untuk agama Kristian; Datuk RS Mohan Shan bagi Hindu. utk melakukan MUBAHALAH bersama dgn kami orang-orang Islam Malaysia melalui MAIS !!
Cuma aku nak nasihatkan sebelum kamu semua bersetuju elokla and google dulu sejarah MUBAHALA ini sbb Pendita Arab Keristian semasa zaman Nabi Muhammad dulu tidak berani apabila dicabar olih baginda Rasulullah sendiri.
SELAMAT BERMUBAHALAH USKOP PAUL TAN KALAU ANDA BENAR-BENAR ADA TELOR !!
Lets put things into perspective. In Malaysia, Christians in sabah and sarawak, as well as semenanjung also have used the word Allah for a long time without causing any storm. No issue. Only when Herald wants to use it in its official publication that started the issue. When you use it officially, it means it has to be legal. But that violate article 14 of the constitution. If this thing is allowed, it would mean that all other clauses in article 14 will be null and void. That would mean Malaysia is no longer having Islam as the federation religion. None Muslim can now dakwah the Muslim, Muslim can murtad suka hati.
To sum up, lets make some revision on the tuntutan IFC (source http://www.jais.gov.my/isuagama/ifc.php). Look at item no 9. So Mr Paul, you think Muslim wouldn’t be furious? You are torching up big religion conflict in Malaysia.
Ancaman Daripada 14 Tuntutan IFC Terhadap Umat Islam
1. Seseorang anak yang dilahirkan oleh ibubapa Islam tidak seharusnya secara terus menjadi orang Islam.
2. Orang-orang bukan Islam yang telah memeluk Islam hendaklah diberikan kebebasan untuk kembali ke agama asal mereka(murtad) dan tidak boleh dikenakan tindakan undang-undang.
3. Sebarang kes pertukaran agama orang Islam kepada bukan Islam tidak sepatutnya dikendalikan oleh mahkamah syariah tetapi dikendalikan oleh mahkamah sivil.
4. Tidak perlu dicatatkan di dalam kad pengenalan seseorang Muslim bahawa ia beragama Islam
5. Orang bukan Islam tidak perlu dikehendaki menganut Islam sekiranya ingin berkahwin dengan orang Islam. Orang Islam hendaklah dibenarkan keluar daripada Islam(murtad) sekiranya ingin berkahwin dengan orang bukan Islam tanpa boleh dikenakan tindakan undang-undang.
6. Seseorang atau pasangan suami-isteri yang menukar agamanya dengan memeluk Islam tidak patut diberikan hak penjagaan anak.
7. Orang-orang yang bukan Islam yang mempunyai hubungan kekeluargaan dengan seorang yang memeluk Islam hendaklah diberikan hak menuntut harta pusakanya selepas kematiannya..
8. Kerajaan hendaklah menyediakan dana yang mencukupi untuk membina dan menyelenggara rumah-rumah ibadat orang bukan Islam sebagaimana kerajaan menyediakan dana yang serupa untuk masjid.
9. Orang-orang bukan Islam hendaklah dibenarkan dan tidak boleh dihalang daripada menggunakan perkataan-perkataan suci Islam dalam percakapan dan sebagainya.
10. Bibel dalam Bahasa Malaysia dan Bahasa Indonesia sepatutnya dibenarkan untuk diedarkan kepada umum secara terbuka.
11. Pelajaran agama bukan Islam untuk penganut agama itu hendaklah diajar di semua sekolah.
12. Program-program berunsur Islam dalam bahasa ibunda sesuatu kaum hendaklah ditiadakan. Program dakwah agama lain selain Islam pula hendaklah dibenarkan untuk disiarkan dalam bahasa ibunda masing-masing.
13. Orang-orang Islam yang membayar zakat tidak sepatutnya dikecualikan daripada membayar cukai pendapatan dan wang hasil zakat sepatutnya digunakan juga untuk keperluan orang-orang bukan Islam.
14. Sepatutnya islam tidak disebut sebagai pilihan pertama masyarakat Malaysia seperti dalam soal pakaian menutup aurat kepada pelajar sekolah.
Ancaman Utama IFC terhadap Islam
1. Membuka ruang seluas-luasnya kepada orang bukan Islam mencampuri Hal Ehwal Agama Islam.
2. Menjadikan undang-undang Allah pertu tunduk kepada norma-norma antarabangsa yang dicipta manusia yang jelas menjejaskan aqidah.
3. Orang-orang Islam bebas melakukan apa saja tanpa batasan.
4. Orang-orang Islam bebas untuk murtad.
5. IFC berhak untuk menentukan status agama seseorang.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
grandmarquis,
You mean Article 3?
Correct Helen. Artikel 3 dan kemudian artikel 11(4)
Thanks
Salam sejahtera Helen Ang, saya begitu menghargai sikap keterbukaan anda didalam isu yg agak kronik ini. Cuma saya ingin menambah sedikit ttg mubahalah yg Pencipta (Allah Subahanahu wata’ala) sendiri syorkan sekiranya berlaku perbalahan seperti ini. Isu ini bukan perkara baru didalam sejarah Islam bagi Pencipta kami. Sebab itu Al Quran adalah panduan yg sgt tepat bagi umat Islam apabila isu seperti ini muncul di abad ini skrg.
Hujah saya seperti berikut, khass utk USKOP PAUL TAN !!!
Panggil tuhan itu Allah bukan isunya disini. Yang tak boleh tu bila pihak gereja Keristian melalui kitab “modified” mereka Al Kitab istiharkan (ajarkan) tuhan mereka yg selama ini tidak ada nama yg mereka yakini dan ajarkan juga kepada penganut baru dan lama bahawa Tuhan ini ada anak. Versi Bible King James yg pihak Keristian gunakan lebih 5 kurun pun tidak ada nama Allah didalamnya.
Sekarang Tuhan yg tidak pernah diberi nama itu pihak gereja Katolik Malaysia sendiri yg bagi nama Allah ! Padahal sifat Allah tidak begitu. Kalau orang-orang bukan Islam benar2 ingin tahu kenapa orang Islam bantah? Mereka mesti dan wajib rujuk surah Al Ikhlas (Al Quran) utk memahami sifat sebenar ALLAH. Didalam surah yg cuma ada 4 baris ayat itu, Allah menerangkan sifatnya secara ringkas dan sgt mudah utk difahami.
Jika pihak yg mempertikaikan masih tidak berpuas hati dan mereka yakin bahawa mereka melakukan yang betul, maka sudah sampailah masanya pihak Jabatan Ugama Islam menggunakan ultimatum yg terakhir. Gunakan kaedah yg telah Allah nyatakan didalam AlQuran. Sila rujuk ayat 59 – 63 surah Ali ‘Imran seperti maksudnya di bawah:
59. Sesungguhnya misal (penciptaan) Isa di sisi Allah, adalah seperti (penciptaan) Adam. Allah menciptakan Adam dari tanah, kemudian Allah berfirman kepadanya: “Jadilah” (seorang manusia), maka jadilah dia.
60. (Apa yang telah Kami ceritakan itu), itulah yang benar, yang datang dari Tuhanmu, karena itu janganlah kamu termasuk orang-orang yang ragu-ragu.
61. Siapa yang membantahmu tentang kisah Isa sesudah datang ilmu (yang meyakinkan kamu), maka katakanlah (kepadanya): “Marilah kita memanggil anak-anak kami dan anak-anak kamu, isteri-isteri kami dan isteri-isteri kamu, diri kami dan diri kamu; kemudian marilah kita bermubahalah kepada Allah dan kita minta supaya la’nat Allah ditimpakan kepada orang-orang yang dusta.
62. Sesungguhnya ini adalah kisah yang benar, dan tak ada Tuhan (yang berhak disembah) selain Allah; dan sesungguhnya Allah, Dialah Yang Maha Perkasa lagi Maha Bijaksana .
63. Kemudian jika mereka berpaling (dari kebenaran), maka sesunguhnya Allah Maha Mengetahui orang-orang yang berbuat kerusakan.
Sungguh hebat Al Quran ini, tidakkah ini menunjukkan betapa benarnya wasiat terakhir Rasulullah apabila baginda menyuruh umatnya utk merujuk kepada sunnahNYA dan Al Quran apabila ada perbalahan ! Ingat la Allah bukan sekadar nama ye ! Allah Maha Hidup lagi Maha Mengetahui !
Kepada pihak MAIS ingatlah kita berada di pihak yg benar dan jangan takut dgn mereka yg meminta sesuatu yg bukan Hak seperti ini. Apa macam ada berani ke USKOP PAUL TAN ?
The Arab, in the time of Jahiliah (before the prophet Muhammad S.A.W.) knows who is Allah. It is because the religion in Arab peninsular was originated from prophet Abraham a.s. who worship Allah. That is why the Arab knew Allah. The knew Allah as the God Almighty who created heaven and earth. The only problem with them was that although the knew Allah, they also believe in other deities who can bring good and bad fortune and worship those deities.
One thing that our Mr. Paul fail to know is that even though the Arab worship deities, none of them ever named the deity or statue as Allah. Because they know that Allah does not have the attributes as in their deity. Today the Christian tries to name Allah to the 3 in one God they worship.
Dear grandmarquis and Helen Ang, in this chronic issues mubahalah is the only answer for the “stalemate and deadlock” created by the Catholic church spear headed by Bishop Paul Tan and their fellow pembangkang politician who wishes to get some political mileages from the annoying issues for the Muslim in Malaysia.
What do you say when the people eventually have to resort to Allah for the ultimate judgment? I strongly believe whether a person is a non believer or not this proposal cannot be refused by anybody living in this peaceful country Malaysia. Don’t you agree that people want to see something different in order to see the ultimate truth?
Let’s recommend the MUBAHALAH ultimatum and see whether their ridiculous claim is “REALLY” valid or not ? And oh yes lets invite Lim Guan Eng, Lim Kit Siang, Anwar Inbrahim and Karpal Singh as well since they are the “musketeer” that engineered the Kalimah Allah issues !!!
Even if they back out then we the Rakyat will eventually know their TRUE COLOURS !!! In conclusion this what we the RAKYAT can say of them – TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT SINCE YOU HAVE ASKED FOR IT !!!
antibebal,
“…………………. engineered the Kalimah Allah issues”
Please get your facts right on how the kalimah Allah issue first started. It is the government that started it by imposing new condition to ban the usage of Allah on the publication permit for The Herald.
asus,
The Pakatan Reput and the gang are the “team” that engineered to make the kalimah Allah issues more prominent to gain their expected political mileage. The Government has done the right thing for they had not compromised with the Catholic church demand. At least they are not the “lalang” type like PAS stance of “sekejap boleh sekejap tak boleh”.
Since everybody loves hard facts, what do you think about my “Mubahalah” proposes? If they think “kalimah Allah” is just a meaningless name. If you dare, how about bringing these people who are very vocal in demanding their rights to use Allah name to do “mubahalah” with us? Because eventually you will say Allah too can have offspring like human and animal !!! Our human terms call it kurang ajar !
Infacts these people are terms as liars or “Penipu” in BM by the Holy Bible itself ! You want more facts? Pls refer Jeremiah 8:8. “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? But behold, the LYING PEN of the SCRIBES has made it into a lie.”
Who do you think is the real liars here, your so called Al Kitab by the Pakatan Reput & the Malaysian Catholic church version or the King James version? The “LYING PEN” and the “SCRIBES” text here described the significant word “LORD” that you people changed to Allah. I am not trying to meddle in your church affair. But in the Christian world who gave you people the “authority” to changed or modified the original text in the King James version?
Conclusively we are not wrong to declare in accordance to Jeremiah 8:8. that the Pakatan Reput and their Bishop are the Penipu that the verses had described. Can you expect LIARS to speak about the TRUTH?
jANGAN LUPA PANGGIL AMBIGA SEKALI UTK MELAKSANAKAN MUBAHALAH ITU BERSAMA-SAMA DGN KAMI. Tidak kah beliau juga juara bagi IFC yg disebut olih grandmarquis ?
I don’t think Christians in the Middle East countries do as well like Christians here, besides it’s not a good idea to use the Middle East people to support whatever position they think they’re taking, their PAS partner might follow along and go overboard with it.
Whatever Lim Guan Eng has done, it’s obvious he washed his hands off it seeing from his actions and statements afterwards.
It’s just something he used to divert attention from other things.
Really shows what DAP thinks of their PAS partner.
Some bishop this guy is if some Lim Guan Eng manage to take him on a ride. I don’t even know what religion this Lim guy is.
Salah satu taktik permainan catur DAP adalah menggerakkan Bishop/Uskup sebagai anchor disebabkan pergerakannya nampak lurus tetapi boleh bergerak mencelah-celah secara pepenjuru dan adakalanya mengelirukan serta mampu mengkucar-kacirkan lawan.
Ini sebahagian daripada taktik ala Red Herring untuk mengalihkan tumpuan lawan sedangkan Queen memainkan peranan penting untuk bertindak dan hanya menunggu masa untuk meneruskan agenda. Dalam masa yang sama beberapa Pawn/Bidak mengatur langkah perlahan-lahan mara ke petak musuh menunggu masa dinaikkan pangkat.
Tahniah kepada Imam Besar Paul Tan kerana menjadi sebahagian alat DAP dalam mengkucar-kacirkan umat Islam/Melayu di Malaysia (tidak kira apa parti politik ). Hasilnya, umat Islam/Melayu sampai sekarang masih bertelagah tentang isu ini. Ada yang kafir-mengkafirkan sesama sendiri dan ada juga yang dipecat gara-gara mempertahankan agama. Mungkin angan-angan DAP kalau PR memerintah Putrajaya, gereja kristal terapung yang lebih besar dari Masjid Putrajaya juga akan dibina disana. Inilah bahana kalau agama menjadi alat untuk berpolitik. Dalam isu ini, saya tidak salahkan semua kaum Cina dan juga penganut Kristian. Tetapi saya menyalahkan DAP (mandatori) kerana secara terang-terangan menunjukkan kehandalan untuk bermain api.
Soksek-soksek di warung kopi di kampung-kampung yang dah pakai wi-fi sekarang, ada juga yang bercakap : “sebelum PRU 13 ni, eloklah standby stok beras & barang dapur banyak-banyak ye..manalah tau kot-kot..”. Dengar angka 13 pun kadang-kadang boleh cuak.
Bak kata orang Jawa “Amit-amit jabang bayi “.
What chess piece is The Star, then?
The Star lebih cenderung untuk menjadi papan Dam Ular, nampak lebih berbelit-belit, lebih colourful dan banyak tangga kena panjat :D
LOL. Jadi suratkhabar itulah yang menyediakan tangga-tangga untuk dipanjat evangelista naik ke puncak kuasa.
JESUS SAID LOVE YOUR ENEMY,
This issue is another living proof where “divide and rules” that was left behind by the Westerner is still very much alive and kicking and now Dapster is using it for similar purpose: to continue the Colonialist Legacy so that Penang will not change hand after GE 13. A readable strategy on that side!
Yes, you’re right.
Zairil Khir Johari ‘clarified’ his boss’ reversed 24 Dec 2012 position that DAP had actually wanted a split decision, i.e. kitab-Allah okay in East Malaysia but not making any demand for its use in West Malaysia.
Is it any ssssssurprise at all the masssssster of doublesssssspeak came out with a sssssssstatement like that especially in the year of the ssssssnake?
Hahaha … there are snakes and there is the yarara (name of the species) snake that looks like eeeuw — click here for photo.
It’s cute!!!! To see in a photo la!!!
Btw, just curious over the BM word for bishop as I don’t have a BM dictionary at hand. I’ve always seen it spelled as uskup for bishop & uskup agung for the archbishop. Are both the spelling (with the “o” & “a”) acceptable?
Uskup is correct. My bad.
Typo: (with the “o” & “u”)
Other cases include Sarawakian Christian Jill Ireland’s court challenge against the Home Ministry for its 2008 seizure of her personal collection of religious CDs bearing the word “Allah” at an airport.
The Kuala Lumpur High Court had on May 4, 2009, granted leave to the ethnic Melanau to challenge the Home Ministry’s act, saying that Jill had the right to “own, receive, use, import, distribute and possess” any material with the word “Allah” on it.
In the terms of the order, Jill was also granted a declaration that it was a “legitimate expectation” for her to possess or use these materials for the purpose of conducting her religious faith freely.
Despite the formation of the JKMPKA in 2011, there appears to be no serious inroads made to the “Allah” issue, with Putrajaya yet to give a clear stand.
But following the controversial blocking and confiscation of Malay-language bibles containing the word “Allah” catering to Bumiputera Christians in 2011, which were subsequently released by the government, a 10-point formula was drawn up in April 2011.
In the Najib administration’s 10-point resolution, the Cabinet, through its minister Datuk Seri Idris Jala, assured the large Bumiputera Christian population in Sarawak and Sabah that they were free to bring in and use their bibles in Malay as well as in indigenous languages.
Jala also said that the Bible could now be printed locally in any language, including in Iban, Kadazan-Dusun and Lun Bawang.
An April 2011 circular to Christian Federation of Malaysia (CFM) chairman Bishop Ng Moon Hing signed by Najib himself stated that Christians and those of other faiths can import and use bibles in any languages, including Bahasa Malaysia.
– the Malaysian Insider
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2013/1/10/nation/12554586&sec=nation
http://www.malaysiandigest.com/news/36-local2/245462-stop-talking-about-allah-unity-dept-d-g-tells-malaysians.html
Who has not been showing the spirit of compromise? Najib or Anwar or LGE?
For Brownny,
Other cases include Sarawakian Christian Jill Ireland’s court challenge against the Home Ministry for its 2008 seizure of her personal collection of religious CDs bearing the word “Allah” at an airport.
The Kuala Lumpur High Court had on May 4, 2009, granted leave to the ethnic Melanau to challenge the Home Ministry’s act, saying that Jill had the right to “own, receive, use, import, distribute and possess” any material with the word “Allah” on it.
In the terms of the order, Jill was also granted a declaration that it was a “legitimate expectation” for her to possess or use these materials for the purpose of conducting her religious faith freely.
Despite the formation of the JKMPKA in 2011, there appears to be no serious inroads made to the “Allah” issue, with Putrajaya yet to give a clear stand.
But following the controversial blocking and confiscation of Malay-language bibles containing the word “Allah” catering to Bumiputera Christians in 2011, which were subsequently released by the government, a 10-point formula was drawn up in April 2011.
In the Najib administration’s 10-point resolution, the Cabinet, through its minister Datuk Seri Idris Jala, assured the large Bumiputera Christian population in Sarawak and Sabah that they were free to bring in and use their bibles in Malay as well as in indigenous languages.
Jala also said that the Bible could now be printed locally in any language, including in Iban, Kadazan-Dusun and Lun Bawang.
An April 2011 circular to Christian Federation of Malaysia (CFM) chairman Bishop Ng Moon Hing signed by Najib himself stated that Christians and those of other faiths can import and use bibles in any languages, including Bahasa Malaysia.
– from the Malaysian Insider
Who is willing to compromise and who is the shit stirrer, Najib or LGE?
i hate n’sync,
Why the government proceeded with the Appeal? Why not just agree with the 2010 decision of the High Court? Why the Court of Appeal is waiting for 3 years to dispose the appeal?
Thanks Bro for your reply.
I think the answer to all 3 questions the same. It is all about politics. The reasons are political. Decision delivered by Justice Lau Bee Lan on Dec 31st, 2009 followed by the appeal being filed shortly after. But no news whatsoever since.
While the long wait can be disconcerting to many stakeholders, I personally feel the long down time is actually a good thing. It allows the issue to boil over a bit & maybe with the passing of the GE, there will be less politicizing going round over this.
All said & done, Malaysians need to understand & hopefully accept that racial & religious issues does not need to be a zero sum game. A little understanding with a pinch of tolerance & a sprinkle of patience can go a long way.
Dear asus,
The government need to proceed because the respective states could not enforce the enactment as federal laws regulate the printing press act. It IS a legal point. If the federal government wins the case, it can then grant or dispense EXCEPTIONS to the norm, not the other way round.
I’ve always reiterated that we do not live in separation, muslims and non-muslims, and the enforcement of certain Islamic laws are problematic. These are crucial periods because syariah laws, while limited, have been punching above its weight on two fronts, 1) legislative development in the syariah system and related laws, and 2) administrative development in the civil institutions and governance i.e. the creeping Islamization eroding the secular foundations).
The courts clearly pointed out that if the government prefers a different outcome, perhaps better laws are needed. At this point, the AG probably feels that they still have a case to pursue (perhaps under the discretion of the Minister of Home Affairs), but I think the real issue here is whether creating a list of banned words can fall under a civil law to regulate proselytization without infringing on the rights of non-muslims, especially when the national language or Malay language belongs to all Malaysians.
The 10-point resolution IS a compromise but both sides are willing to accept this temporary truce. The government can use the time to gazette more enactments to consolidate its legal position, and the Church will see if the court case will set a precedent to protect its point, and buy them time to get more Malay language bibles on the ground and have BM masses to grow its flock. You must remember that this is a showdown waiting to happen since the said enactments were done in the late 1980s and 1990s, the peak of UMNO’s power.
The growing Islamization needs to be checked at some point, and I believe we are reaching a point where some order needs to be reasserted, especially the cases of non-muslim converts who failed to resolve their civil marriage matters. Malaysians must be able to understand the legal points in any disputes or quarrels, and learn to move the right avenues to fix bad laws – our ADUNs and Parliamentarians. Many columnists and political analysts have cited BN’s downfall to corruption scandals, but I fear that it is MCA and MIC and the non-muslim component parties failure to rein in the legislative and administrative excessiveness of UMNO that drove them to PR. I believe PR supporters are willing to tolerate some corruption from DAP, PAS or PKR, as long as the economy continues to grow while they use the space to bring back secularism and liberalistic rule.
Whether PR or BN governs, the federal-state relationship will change, and laws will more become important tools of legitimization. Malaysians who want to see a two-party system must make sure we have two VIABLE ruling coalitions, and never again to return to the post 1980s BN dominated by UMNOputras. The days of consultative politics by the ruling elites are ending. We have to find new ways of keeping our social contract alive, and this requires the masses to rise above acts of violence. We need to convince each other on the soundness of our positions, not through threats of chaos and murder. We need to know who is pushing our buttons, and see through their rhetoric and examine their actions.
That means asking MCA or MIC to leave BN is extremely stupid. We need each other, even if we don’t pray to the same God or if we pray at all. I refuse to believe that the majority of Malaysians want to replace the Constitution with the Quran. I have no qualms of accepting sound, universal Islamic principles, but I reject the cosmetics and artificiality in dividing us as a people. This applies to the ethnocentric sentiments and insularity of some Chinese Malaysians.
i hate n’sync,
Many thanks for the long reply to my short questions. We recognise that the government has the right to appeal. Even if the Court of Appeal decides to agree with the judgment of Justice Lau Bee Lan, the government can still appeal to the Federal Court.
This kalimah Allah dispute is a matter of public interest and has constitutional significance. The judiciary ought to expedite the case and settle the dispute once and for all.
As Fakin’ Fake Calvin responded to my 3 questions, it is all about politics. The long delay is an indication of executive interference in the affairs of the judiciary. I really want to see the matter be disposed of at the Federal Court level.
Why KDN amended the terms in the publication permit of The Herald? The original permit allowed kalimah Allah to be used provided that The Herald is distributed to Christians only. Why KDN revoked this term and impose an outright ban on the word Allah? It is due to the action of KDN that prompted the Church to seek judicial redress.
Back in 2010, the High Court already delivered the judgment favouring the Church. As much as we respect the right of the KDN to appeal, why the government is prolonging the appeal? It has been about 3 years since the appeal is filed by KDN.
What the Court of Appeal is doing throughout these 3 years? Where is the sense of urgency? Why the government didn’t expedite the disposal of the case?
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/sideviews/article/news-without-context-is-noise-the-allah-confusion-bob-teoh
Opinion journalism masquerading as news is unfortunate: The ‘Allah’ debate
I applaud Bob Teoh for trying to provide a broader picture of the ‘Allah’ confusion (his choice of words, not mine), but he conveniently left out several critical information.
The various state enactments are not syariah laws but civil ones and non-muslims can be prosecuted under them (as the example of a case under the Mahkamah Majistret Temerloh, Pahang). It is the specific offence of using the gazetted words (i.e. Allah and the others) and its enforceability that is the issue faced by the Ministry of Home Affairs.
The respective state authorities CAN enforce the state laws, and the Herald’s case didn’t win the Christians (or Sikhs) any favours. If Bob Teoh is trying to convince Muslims that using Allah to refer to Elohim or Yahweh is alright because of successful proselytization tactics applied 400 years ago, all I can say is that the 2010 attacks against places of worship after the court decision over the Herald is indicative of how disconnected the author is of the general sentiments on the ground.
“In summary, the context, etymology and the law clearly allow non-Muslims to use the word “Allah” to mean God.”
– Bob Teoh
Bob Teoh claimed that the context, etymology and the law CLEARLY allowed non-Muslims to use the word “Allah” to mean God. I think the statement is inaccurate on several points.
Firstly, the holy Bible and the holy Quran has a name for God. When in doubt, go back to the authoritative source. Do you translate the name of God in the good book or why do you find a local equivalent? Why couldn’t Elohim remain Elohim, all muslims around the world call Allah as Allah. This is the real context Bob Teoh should have considered.
If the state laws run afoul the constitution, then the state ADUNs must have the courage to amend it, instead of politicising it. The last time I checked, democracy is not the rule of the mob either.
Secondly, etymology wise, nobody can claim exclusive ownership of any word, even the creator of the term. Muslims have used Allah since the creation of Islam. The history of words clearly showed that “Allah” was used to present Elohim to the Malay archipelago by proponents of the missionary movement. In the act of translation, the meaning of Allah has been corrupted. You are arguing that Allah is the generic word for THE God (al-lah) in Arabic. God in Arabic is ‘ilah’. I am sure we all know the reason for the deliberate choice of words by the missionaries.
I absolutely agree that Muslims cannot stop others from calling their own God Allah (as in the Sikh scriptures). In the case of the Herald, however, the insistence is clearly flawed. Arab Christians today use the term Allah al’ Ab (God the Father) to distinguish themselves from the Muslims’ usage.
You have people like Bob Teoh who thinks they are right because the Herald won a case. They forgot that the case wasn’t about Allah and Islam, it was about whether the Ministry of Home Affairs can regulate a publication based on a state law which gazetted words to be off limits to mean Allah other than the One specified in Islam. Justice Lau is of the opinion that denying the use of Allah to Christians is detrimental to the fundamental rights of religious freedom. That is confusing the issue as the Government is NOT seeking to ban Malay bibles or deny Christians the name of their Lord. The names of the Christian god is available in the Bible. It is given and repeated many many times. Can someone explain why is a translated name for Elohim or Yahweh more important than the peaceful co-existence of two Abrahamic faiths?
The government has sought to restrict the use of Allah and many other words so that the meanings are Islam-specific. I think it is stupid, but it does not mean that the Christian faith is being suppressed. You still have got your Malay bibles, your Malay publications and your Malay pamphlets. Malay is the national language, no? Yet, the muslims do not have another word for Allah. Why is that fact so difficult to grasp for some insensitive morons? We cannot help it if there are very stupid people out there doing stupid things. However, we will be stupid ourselves if we deliberately provoke a strong sense of resentment and injustice among our fellow neighbours. The Sikh never had any problem in Malaysia with the usage of the word in their holy book. Why?
Fakin’ Fake Calvin ‘
If the court rule fast and the result is against the church, is this” an indication of executive interference in the affairs of the judiciary”?.
Halo is not about how slow or fast it about public perception, and about fairness in the judges deliberations and judgement .
Hello, get your punctuation right & check out who said ” an indication of executive interference in the affairs of the judiciary” before shooting your gob off.
A FACT IS A FACT.
(Please reread and reread his points with an open mind and heart if needed to, without getting too emotion as a civilize people. His points is base on logic and there is no need to twist or misquote on the truth he is trying to explain. Indeed, he is making a stand not only for the Christians but also for the other community as well on their rights to use the word “Allah”. )
“If the Holy Prophet Muhammad wanted Muslims to use a specific word with special connotations that others did not have, he would have created a new word and not use a word already used by the Arabs and Arab Christians before his time.
Besides, Christians, Mizrahi Jews, Bahai’s, Maltese, Sikhs, and others use the same word. The Skhs have publicly proclaimed that their Holy Scriptures have used the word Allah 37 times. The Sikhs ask the rhetorical question: Are they also forbidden to read and pray their Scriptures?
This word Allah and its cognates are found in many languages. Just to give a few examples:
in Urdu/Persian/Dari/Uyshur, it is the same word, Allah; in Bengali, and in Bosnian languages, it is also Allah; in Czech and Slovak languages, it is Allach, etc.,
In the Holy Quran, it is written clearly that Jews, Christians, Sabeans worship Allah. Allow me to quote only one surah – surah 2:62: “Those who believe in the Quaran and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures and the Christians and the Sabeans… who so believe in God (Allah) and the last day…” said Paul Tan.
kuatkan iman terhadap kepercayaan masing2… iman yang teguh tak akan tumpang sekalipun tsunami melanda :)