Chan Lilian in ‘trouble’ over her Christianity, actually

July 29, 2011 at 6:19 pm 57 comments

By all accounts, the crux of Chan Lilian’s contentious tweet lies in this line: “i think all Christians shud march for all the persecution they had done to us and our Lord”.

Quite frankly, I doubt that the police cyber crime unit can pin any concrete intent to her fairly ambiguous “sharing of thoughts”. After all, her sentence does begin with “I think …”.

Many others on the social media network had in the run-up to Bersih 2.0 encouraged their friends to march, and notable personalities published their appeal to solidarity with the event organisers. On the radar of overall efforts to drum up support for the July 9 rally, Lilian’s tweet hardly registers a blip.

Therefore, a logical analysis infers that it is not Bersih but the Christianity component of the tweet that is being scrutinized in the police investigation on Lilian for sedition.

PAS steadfast with Islamic state

Blog House Malaysia secretary Tony Yew who lodged the police report against Lilian has said that he is against his religion being “used by some to garner popularity”.

Like Lilian, her fellow Catholic Tony comes across as rather vague too. However, we can examine the back story to see the role that religion plays in our domestic politics, which is what the Tony-Lilian brouhaha is really all about.

PAS is Parti Islam Se-Malaysia: the ‘Islam’ in its name an unequivocal declaration of the party’s raison d’etre and dakwah.

The PAS constitution states that Islam is the party foundation and their aim to create [a system of] governance in which the values of Islamic life are implemented.

Their over-riding objective then — stated unambiguously — is to make Islam the guide to politics and statehood where the supreme laws are the Al-Quran and Sunnah, and where the Syura Council’s role is to guarantee that PAS does not veer from these highest laws.

Hence, the hotly contested arena in Malaysia is doubtless political Islam.

PAS’s main adversary Umno has for decades been shouting the slogan ‘Untuk Bangsa, Agama dan Negara’ (For Race, Religion and Country’). Islam in Malaysian politics is old hat. What’s new is Christianity being brought into it, particularly after the March 8 last general election.

That Lilian should have her unfortunate brush with the police stems from the route that her party adopted.

DAP soliciting Christian votes

Of late, it is the Christian faction in DAP that has been at the forefront in public profile.

Among their politicians wearing religion on their sleeve are Lim Guan Eng and his wife Betty Chew who is herself a state assemblyman, Teresa Kok, Hannah Yeoh, the cousins Ngeh Koo Ham and Nga Kor Ming, Tony Pua, Anthony Loke, Teo Nie Ching, the Sarawak newly elected/re-elected state representatives, etc.

Comparatively and off the bat, you’d be hard-pressed to name prominent DAP leaders who are non-Christians to match the extensiveness of the Christian name list.

YouTube has clips of the party on the stump in the recent Sarawak state election where Christianity – the ‘Allah’ word, confiscation of Malay bibles and other grievances – was a major campaign issue. These Christian leaders, including those who hopped over from the peninsula, trade in religious currency similar to their Pakatan counterparts of PAS.

Guan Eng’s Wesak Day official message this year is illustrative of how his main preoccupation is with his own faith. It is a 421-word greeting in which ‘Buddha’ is not mentioned even a single time despite the auspicious day being one to commemorate the Gautama, Prince Siddhartha.

In contrast to ‘Buddhist’ which is mentioned only twice (“Wesak Day’s theme as announced by the Malaysian Buddhist Association … reminds us that love and blessings is not just for Buddhists but for all mankind”), the word ‘Christian(s)’ is mentioned eight times.

Delivering the above festival greeting in his capacity as DAP sec-gen, Guan Eng’s message all but ignored Lord Buddha.

Christian impetus to politics

We should next review the context in which Guan Eng mentions Christian. In the second paragraph of the May 17 message, he said, “DAP calls on all Malaysians to stand up … against extremists …”.

These extremists, he said, wanted to see Malaysia burn with hatred and violence. These extremists, by his reckoning, are not the Christians surely. So who was he referring to?

A big clue can be found in the third paragraph of Guan Eng’s Wesak Day message that is wholly devoted to the plight of Christians. He said:

“Malaysians are shocked and outraged at the inaction by the Home Ministry against Umno-owned paper Utusan Malaysia, for publishing dangerous lies of a Christian conspiracy with DAP to set up a Christian state, that is clearly intended to incite hatred against Christians. The BN government has also refused to act against Perkasa’s Ibrahim Ali for making Christians an object of hate by calling for a crusade (perang jihad) against Christians. Home Minister Datuk Seri Hishamudin Tun Hussein Onn even refused to call Ibrahim Ali an extremist for launching this crusade against Christians.”

The political thrust of Guan Eng’s Wesak Day greeting is most apparent in the fifth paragraph: “Are non-Malays and non-Muslims an easy target to be blamed and kicked around …?”

It follows on from the earlier paragraph where Guan Eng had said that “DAP is willing to work with all Malaysians including non-Umno component members in BN to oppose this crusade …” Those whom he alludes to must necessarily be mostly non-Malay (i.e. fellow Chinese in MCA and Gerakan, Indians in MIC and PPP, Sabah and Sarawak natives in the BN Bornean parties, etc).

His religiously flavoured vocabulary — “to oppose this [Utusan and Ibrahim Ali, read Malay] crusade” — can’t be missed.

Umno retaliates by upping the ante

In a separate Wesak greeting, this time with Guan Eng wearing the hat of Penang chief minister and delivered on May 16, he additionally said: “Even though Christians and not Buddhists are targeted by Umno and Utusan Malaysia this time, what is there to stop Budhhists and Hindus from being the next targets in future”?

And he proceeds to quote from pastor Martin Niemoller’s famous poem on the Nazi persecution. This raising of the alarm, as the discontent unfolds some more, segues into the tweet by Lilian, i.e. “all the persecution they had done to us and our Lord”. With Lim Guan Eng being Chan Lilian’s boss, it becomes apparent as to how her own so-called ‘lament’ has been coloured by his Christian crusading politics.

Meanwhile, as recently as a week ago, Prime Minister Najib Razak in an address to some 200 BN supporters made this riposte: “We wish to tell our friends, the Malaysian Christians . . . if they respect us, we will also respect them.” He’d fired the salvo on July 22 upon his return from a visit to the Vatican and audience with the Pope.

We see here the PM, instead of steering the country away from religious politics, is fencing with the Christian opposition.

It looks as if both sides of the political divide have consciously elected to play to the religious gallery. Umno is pitted against DAP with PAS caught between a rock and a hard place.

Umno’s satellites in the ruling coalition are not oblivious to the Christian turn DAP politics has taken. On May 18, a Penang Gerakan Youth leader lodged a police report against Guan Eng, accusing him of “mixing politics with religion” with regard to the DAP Wesak Day greeting a day earlier.

As of now, the several ‘Allah’ cases are still in the courts. The bible confiscations and seizure of other Christian materials in Bahasa Indonesia by customs are yet to be resolved.

The upshot is the Christian community’s simmering resentment handily makes for political capital in the bid by DAP to gain protest votes.

Lilian a bit player in the game

Against this backdrop of the win-at-all-cost electoral tussle, Chan Lilian is but a pawn.

Nonetheless, her milking public sympathy by portraying herself as “just a housewife” doesn’t wash. She is, as we know, working in the office of the Penang chief minister-cum-DAP secretary-general. Her job makes her a political operative with the DAP party machinery behind her, and no innocent bystander.

And another thing. The Pakatan supporters would have you believe that her loose Twitter talk – allegedly restricted to subscribers, some 900 of them – is solely a private affair. No, it isn’t.

If some religious cult were to hatch a dangerous plot even within a small group of a dozen adherents, the police would not consider their communication to be confidential in nature and having no bearing outside the immediate circle.

Nonetheless, the sedition charge against Lilian is overblown. So what if she had really shared her thoughts on marching in a rally albeit that she adamantly denies this.

Participation in Bersih is not the reason for the at-your-doorstep attention that police are paying her. If it were, the almost 1,700 people arrested plus Marina Mahathir as well as the rest who have openly acknowledged taking part on July 9 would be ahead of Lilian in the queue.

Let’s be clear here. Police interest is in the alleged religious incitement, not any purported instigation to pound the pavements wearing yellow. And of course it’s political, what else?

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Related post: Chan Lilian’s series of denials

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Entry filed under: DAP, Islam, PAS, Religion. Tags: , , , , , , , , , , .

This is Helen Ang’s blog Chan Lilian’s series of denials

57 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Ganesan  |  July 31, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    Just try responding to the bitching,moaning,groaning,grumbling,complaining and to the provocation of Utusan/Pekasa,you will land up in Jail under ISA/EO. All she twittered was “i think all Christians shud march for all the persecution they had done to us and our Lord”and they want to vilify her.
    All like minded people should come out to lend support to her,don’t let her walk alone…….
    Come the next election remember, ABU (Anything But Umno/ Asalkan Bukan Umno….

    Reply
  • 2. aborium  |  July 31, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    Provocations using religion as an issue or under the banner of a religion is act against the spirit and teachings of all religions. It teaches hatred, revenge,and out of which ugly situations can happen. In the name of religion? Think.

    Reply
  • 3. Billy B.T.Goh  |  July 31, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    HELLO hELEN aNG,

    From your name you seems to be a Christian, but your writing you are vilifying another Christian for her thoughts, and this so call Tony Yew lodged a police report against her for her twitter.
    As Christian we are taught to forgive and love thy neighbors. Looks like there is only HATRED IN BOTH YOUR HEARTS, MAY GOD FORGIVE BOTH IF YOU ARE CHRISTIANS.

    Reply
    • 4. Asuk  |  August 1, 2011 at 1:31 pm

      Are Mary worshippers Christians??

      Reply
  • 5. Ting  |  July 31, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    The way you write it, you are trying to stir up religious war. Do not judge for your will be judged. By condemning Chan Lilian for her tweet, are you not also condemning the freedom of speech. Malaysians already are afraid to speak out, especially christians. We must defend democracy at all cost. That is why LGE said that her probing was political motivated and not religious.

    I believe you are a Buddhist. A Buddhist should be peaceful and tolerant, but you are not tolerant of others. When people views are different from you, you write and criticised. You have a very critical spirit, which Buddha does not have.

    Reply
    • 6. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:43 pm

      Ting,
      Helen is NOT stirring up a religious war, Lilian is. She is pitting all christians against the Govt. and that is dangerous and irresponsible.
      Do you realise no one from the catholic church, not even the one where Lilian attends and worships, has voiced support for Lilian?
      What do you think that means?
      Whether Helen is a buddhist or not, doesn’t matter, she has the right to question a wrong, irregardless of who committed that wrong. Helen has very clearly explained why her name is not christian, and I think she explained it very clearly. The name Helen, existed long before christianity was founded.
      Helen and me, made an critical analyses of Lilian’s statement, and that is distinctly different from the “criticism” that you are referring to. Your meaning of criticism refers to condemnation, Helen and I did not condemn, just critically analysed Lilian’s statement.
      I think Jesus would have been proud of a buddhist like Helen and a christian like me, for we didn’t come out blindly in support of a christian and had the guts to tell Lilian that she is wrong and we gave our reasons too. Jesus rebuked christians too, especially those that are called christians, but did not have the christian spirit in them.

      Reply
  • 7. Krishna  |  July 31, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    She was obviously referring to the crucification of Christ by the Romans! Let us see how clever the UMNO police are to say that she referred to any Malaysian!

    Reply
    • 8. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:29 pm

      Krishna,
      What has the crucification of Christ got to do with this statement:
      “I think all Christians shud march for all the persecution they had done to us and our Lord. Dont you think so? I go sleep now, bye-bye.
      You mean because the Romans crucified Jesus, we should crucify the Malaysian Govt? I mean isn’t that silly?

      Reply
  • 9. christian  |  July 31, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    our God is strong enough to defend himself, we do not need to ‘march’ for him. But yes we do need to march for clean elections.

    Reply
    • 10. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:25 pm

      Christian,
      Your answer is typical of most christians, when you can’t comment intelligently, you use God as an excuse, as if that would end and solve everything. It doesn’t and it won’t.

      Reply
  • 11. Hai Hiung Lo  |  July 31, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    From Twitter help center, When you protect your Tweets, the following restrictions are put in place:
    1)People will have to request to follow you and each follow request will need approval.
    2) Your Tweets will only be visible to users you’ve approved, meaning that other users will not be able to retweet your Tweets.
    3) Protected Tweets will not appear in Twitter search. (i.e. not in public sphere as Helen would like the uninformed to believe)
    4) @replies you send to people who aren’t following you will not be seen by those users (because you have not given them permission to see your Tweets).

    It’s pretty clear there that Lilian (twitter account: @5xmum) protected her tweets making her tweets private.

    Reply
    • 12. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:46 pm

      Hai Hiung Lo ,

      Then I would say that Lilian “privately” instigated christians to march against the Govt. That doesn’t make it right you know. It’s still an incitement and it is still a crime.

      Reply
      • 13. Hai Hiung Lo  |  July 31, 2011 at 11:39 pm

        Don,

        Your inability to see the oxymoron of your own statement amazes me.

        Reply
  • 14. Hai Hiung Lo  |  July 31, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    And to equate Lilian’s tweets to her followers as

    “some religious cult were to hatch a dangerous plot even within a small group of a dozen adherents” is far fetched, uncalled for and malicious.

    It seems I have mistaken, you appears more of a scornful person than an intelligent writer.

    Reply
    • 15. Don  |  August 1, 2011 at 9:32 am

      Hai Hiung Lo,

      I guess you have nothing intelligent to say, so you resort to name calling. That reflects how dumb and shallow you are. You must try to, if you can, engage a person with rational arguments, not show your stupidity.
      I suggest, if you are a woman, go and bear children and bring them up, not like yourself, for you are useless, and if you are a man, go and chase flies in your market.
      Anything else, would be too difficult for you.

      Reply
  • 16. Tonto  |  July 31, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Nobody has any right to voice their views, ****** ang ang????
    Bad enough that you should sell your body to EVIL umno and mca for a few ringgit, but you also sell your sould as well…for free.
    May you be cursed for 7 generations.

    Reply
    • 17. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:48 pm

      Tonto,
      Don’t you know that all Helen has to do is to bless you and your curses are sent back to the sender, that is you. Learn, my friend learn.

      Reply
  • 18. Dr. HC Pang  |  July 31, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    Just because Guan Eng did not mention “Lord Buddha” specifically in his speech, you infer that he therefore is averse to Buddhism?

    Come out of your closet and reveal yourself for who you really are – a typical hypocritical BN apologist.

    Reply
  • 19. Eric Mudasi  |  July 31, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    WOW !!! NICELY DONE ! very well analyzed
    Refreshing to see clarity. Journalists like you are a rare breed, not compromised by the “FOG of dogma”.
    The Singapore government has a major problem with its Evangelical Christian missionaries. Their influence peddling is very cancerous not unlike the rabid right wing nuts of the “tea party” in the US who advocate among other things violence against women, clinic staff & doctors who advocate for a woman’s right to choose to have a baby or not and this movement has warped into a very negative and sinister shadow in Republican political sphere.
    Chiaroscuro (MGG will be pleased that his trade craft is respected)

    Reply
  • 20. Orangkampung  |  July 31, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    Ayaaaaaa!!!!!! Tony — Tony why made a bomb of a one’s speech that has no value? (*** edited by moderator). To opinion. This is a childish analysis to create —- discontent emotion. YOUR ALLAH IS MY GOD. Educated can be Numbskull better be OrangKampung

    Reply
  • 21. amoker  |  July 31, 2011 at 7:16 pm

    So interesting. You now position DAP as anti-chinese and anti buddhists. I think that you writting is very dangerous and provocative, even more so than Lilian’s. How did you jump the logical bridge? YOu might as well say LGE is a muslim since he quoted from Quran and some hadiths.

    Reply
  • 22. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 7:42 pm

    I do not wish to repeat myself. Just read this thread and follow the comments and you will realise what a silly lot Malaysians, generally speaking, are.

    http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=16771:racial-acceptance?-there-isnt-even-tolerance-ask-chelsea-chan-lilian&Itemid=2

    I would have done exactly what Tony has done. Inciting christians, and putting unwarranted thoughts into their heads, are, to me, one and the same.
    Enough said.

    Reply
  • 23. Kevin  |  July 31, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    I think the readers of these articles cant see the woods from the trees. It is altogether imperative if Chan Lilian Helen Ang is buddhist or christian. All she is trying to do is to provide the reader with an analogy that is different from others. She has done a good job by providing the reader with inserts from speeches provided by the CM and President of the DAP. If the readers are interested they can view Ong Kian Ming’s article on how important the Christian votes are even though this cohort represents only 9% of the Malaysian population.
    Chan Lilian Helen Ang, you have done a great job. The thing with enlightening minds is that not all are cultured. But you have 13 readers taking their time to leave comments, it is definitely a good read..

    Reply
  • 24. HuaYong  |  July 31, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    amoker@13

    “You now position DAP as anti-chinese and anti buddhists”

    I think you are the one that jump the logical bridge.

    Reply
  • 25. Mark D.  |  July 31, 2011 at 9:19 pm

    good analysis. it does appear irrelevant to talk about other stuff when the main focus is on the celebration of vesak. it’s like making an elaboration on the situation of the orang aslis in a christmas greeting without mentioning about the significance of christmas.

    Reply
  • 26. Don  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    Helen’s stand, and mine are pretty clear, that, the words used by Lilian are an incitement.
    This is what Lilian said:
    “I think all Christians shud march for all the persecution they had done to us and our Lord. Dont you think so? I go sleep now, bye-bye. :)”
    Can Lilian or anyone else, explain who is the ‘us’ that she was referring to, and list the persecution done to ‘them’, then it will help to understand the full extent of her meaning. Persecution done to ‘Our Lord’, what does that mean?
    Her meaning is very clear, that “ALL CHRISTIANS SHOULD MARCH ‘AGAINST’ THIS GOVT. The fact that Lilian used the words, “I think”, some of you say is not definitive, and I say that’s not the point, she did encourage christians to march.
    It’s fine for Lilian to have strong convictions and encourage christians to march against the Govt, but she must bear the consequences of her words. She can’t just inch herself out, when she is asked to explain, and make it appear as if she is the victim. One can make the assertion, that her stand, also reflects the stand of LGE and the DAP.
    This is not a christians and non christians issue, it’s about a christian inciting other christians to march against the Govt. and right thinking christians are rightfully angry with Lilians statement.
    I would put Lilian on the stand, and ask her to explain.

    Reply
  • 27. Nick  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:31 pm

    Personally I don’t see anything wrong with Lilian’s tweet. All she wrote was her OPINION about the injustice done towards her religion and her faith. Furthermore, she was merely asking those of the same faith to MARCH and she didn’t NOT ask them TO GO TO WAR! That’s the same as AMBIGA asking her fellow democratic citizen of Malaysia to march to show their displeasure about the electoral system and the perceived bias committed by SPR. This is freedom of expression and freedom of speech in a democracy. And as a matter of fact PERKASA’s Ibrahim Ali uses much more seditious and religious intolerant speeches and remarks all in the name of Islam.

    Compared to IA mouth, Lilian’s tweet is nothing to shout about nor huge enough incident to lodge a police report. To me, Tony Yew’s action mirrors Ibrahim Ali intolerant behaviour and paranoid opportunist mentality. As a muslim, I absolutely abhor Ibrahim Ali and as a Malaysian I’m disappointed that there are other Malaysian that are infected with IA sickness and disease. And this sickness and disease that effect the moral and mentality of it’s sufferer have nothing whatsoever to do with any religion. Only those who are themselves intolerant and bigots are susceptible (and these people exist in every religion and in both sexes too).

    Nick.
    GOD Bless a BERSIH Malaysia.

    Reply
  • 28. Ken Ooi  |  July 31, 2011 at 10:56 pm

    Firstly, I would like to declare that I am not a member of any political party and nor have I ever taken part in any political activity in all my life.

    Upon reading your article, however, I felt that I had to make the comment that I am amazed that you oppose Lillian just because she said “I think….” Can’t she be allowed to think? Do not the words “I think” mean she is wondering? When has wondering about something become incitement? Why would I feel incited when she herself is not sure about her own view? Why do you make such a big cry about one sentence Lillian writes regarding what she thinks and, in the process, pass judgment on other parties like LGE?

    With regard to LGE mentioning Christianity more often than Buddhism in his Wesak Day message, do you not think that he would have mentioned “Buddhism” more frequently than “Christianity” if it is Buddhism that is currently the hot topic and not Christianity? After all, LGE is a politician who will pounce on what is hot for the day. Should you prejudge his motive? I am not sure if you are a Christian but you should know that it is a sin to pass judgment on anybody without any concrete basis.

    Reply
  • 29. Eric Mudasi  |  August 1, 2011 at 1:06 am

    She is working in the CHief Minister’s Office…and by virtue of that, is his mouth peace.

    The exco of Democratic Action Party is being overrun from within by born again FANATICAL a-holes who harbour delusions of grandeur, inspired or captivated by sermons that over-emphasize this grand delusion that Roman soldiers some 2000 years ago nailed *** to a scaffolding and [he] somehow died for “THEIR” failings.

    This is what Raja Petra would call a belief system not FACT.

    You are first and foremost a political party. Your actions are meant to serve the rakyat based on FACTS.

    ACT LIKE IT!!

    Malaysia ia a plural society remember that we love breaking coconuts during Thaipusam. Carrying Kavadi, not so much. Dare you to rescind Chinese Ang Pow packets …love the breaking fast feasts during Ramadhan. Not sure what Buddhists do during Wesak..eat oranges and sticky cake ??? !!
    I hope All souls day in Malaysia evolves to the South American kind where we all dress ghoulish like zombies… I wish we had Halloween on a major scale.

    From Singapore:

    Singapore has warned an evangelical Christian pastor that his online videos are offensive to Buddhists and Taoists, underlining the city-state’s concerns that religion is a potential faultline for its multicultural society.

    Pastor Rony Tan, of the Lighthouse Evangelism megachurch, apologized and pulled the video clips off the internet after being visited by the government’s Internal Security Department (ISD) on Monday, the pastor and the government said on their websites. “I sincerely apologize for my insensitivity towards the Buddhists and Taoists, and solemnly promise that it will never happen again,” Tan said.

    The Ministry of Home Affairs said in a statement on Tuesday that “Pastor Tan’s comments were highly inappropriate and unacceptable as they trivialised and insulted the beliefs of Buddhists and Taoists. They can also give rise to tension and conflict between the Buddhist/Taoist and Christian communities. ISD told Pastor Tan that in preaching or proselytising his faith, he must not run down other religions, and must be mindful of the sensitivities of other religions.”

    http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/02/10/singapore-raps-evangelical-pastor-for-ridiculing-buddhists-taoists/

    The MRHA (Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act) came into being against a backdrop of rising religiosity, not just in Singapore but worldwide. Mr Lee Kuan Yew said in a speech to a Buddhist gathering in December 1988, a year before the MRHA was tabled in Parliament: ‘The present phase in Singapore tends more towards intensely held beliefs than towards tolerant co-existence. At a time when Islam is resurgent and thrusting, Christians, especially Charismatics, are in a dynamic, evangelical phase. This has sometimes led to friction, and requires sensitive handling.’

    http://www.singaporeunited.sg/cep/index.php/cluster/News-Room/Jaya-Don-t-take-harmony-for-granted/(cluster)/MHA

    Africa:

    AT A rally in Nairobi’s Uhuru Park on a Sunday afternoon last month, Bishop Margaret Wanjiru, parliamentarian, assistant minister for housing and one of the country’s foremost Pentecostal preachers, was passing around a paper bag for contributions from the crowd. Some tens of thousands of Kenyans had gathered to campaign against a proposed new constitution, which Ms Wanjiru and other preachers urged them to reject in a referendum to be held on August 4th. Two provisions, one allowing for Muslim courts to settle marriage and land disputes, the other to allow abortion where the life of the mother is in danger, were a direct threat to Christianity, they said. On the stage, people were being slain by the spirit; sometimes just a fingertip was enough to throw believers back across the boards.

    Then someone tossed two grenades into the crowd, killing six people and wounding many others. Almost immediately, there were accusations that government security agents had attacked the rally. That is evidence, for some, that the government is rattled by the vibrant opposition of the “new churches”, mainly Pentecostal, to a new constitution that most members of the government support. Whatever the truth, there is no doubt that, as elsewhere, Kenya’s politicians have underestimated the drawing power of a fresh generation of Protestant churches, most of which were set up in the 1980s

    http://www.economist.com/node/16488830

    India & US:

    Around the time that Bush Jr moved into the Oval office, a worldwide conversion movement, funded and effected by American evangelical groups, was peaking in India. The movement, which began as AD2000 & Beyond and later morphed into Joshua Project I and Joshua Project II, was designed to be a sledgehammer-a breathtaking, decade-long steamroller of a campaign that would set the stage for a systematic, sophisticated and self-sustaining “harvest” of the “unreached people groups” in India in the 21st century. It was just as the operation was taking off that the script changed. Much to the delight of American evangelicals, one of their own, George Bush Jr, became the occupant of the White House.

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/15060-bush-government-christian-conversions-india.html

    Always remember “bible thumping” is ALWAYS a malignant Cancer that has ugly influences that originate from Conservative Bible Belt of heartland USA. Its is very DANGEROUS !!. Remember David Koresh; Timothy McVeigh; and now Anders Behring Breiv.

    HEY DUM-ASS…. I am talking to you… WHY give UMNO ammo: Utusan has been reduced to wrapping kacang putih & fish …

    http://anilnetto.com/religion-and-ethnicity/christianity/utusan-malaysia-at-it-again/

    Reply
  • 30. The Watcher  |  August 1, 2011 at 4:07 am

    You guys are all playing into Mahathir’s hands by attacking DAP. Blog House is nothing but a Mahathir front on the blogosphere/cyberworld, and Tony Yew is nothing more than a Chinese window dressing for the committee of hard core rabid Maha-puppets like Rocky, BigDog, A Voice, ApaNama, OutSyed, Jebat Must Die (yes, fool, we know you’re in there, and who you are) etc. In fact, the two chinamen in Blog House are a joke. Tony’s sudden turn of attitude points towards some sort of vice grip on his nuts as a result of a very crafty Bru blackmail, while the other chinaman is a prototypical paranoid nutjob who has excessively fed off the library of conspiratorial hogwash courtesy of the Perdana Leadership Foundation.

    These guys are making the first moves to begin silencing the cyber media. The ultimate objective is to have a censorship protocol & tried-and-tested punitive measures in place by the time Mahathir manages to elevate Mukhriz up the ranks.

    The only hope for Malaysia is the total expunging of Mahathirism. He and his lackeys should be locked away for a long time.

    Reply
  • 31. Quixote  |  August 1, 2011 at 8:31 am

    Seriously, I got this inkling feeling that Helen Ang is not what she seems to be. Probably a trooper masquerading as one of the “people” to stir shit and split them up. Hmm…. that plot seems familiar….

    Reply
  • 32. Don  |  August 1, 2011 at 9:48 am

    Nick and Ken Ooi,
    Thank you for your well worded arguments, it’s a pleasant change from the others like Hai Hiung Lo, who resorted to name calling.
    Please don’t compare what Lilian said, to anyone or anybody. Again gentleman, this is what she said:

    “I think all Christians shud march for all the persecution they had done to us and our Lord. Dont you think so? I go sleep now, bye-bye. :)”

    What you should pay attention is this:
    “for all the persecution they had done to us”
    Who did the persecution? The Govt? Who is the “us”? Us Christians? She started by saying, “I think all Christians shud march”
    Isn’t it obvious that she wanted all christians to march against the Govt for the persecution that the Govt did to us, the christians?
    Still want to maintain that it is not an incitement?
    Then she further complicates it by saying, “and to our Lord”. That makes it worse. She is saying that the Govt persecuted her Lord. Where, and what is her basis for saying that?

    Just because she said, “I think”, is no defence at all. If someone says, “I think we should burn Putra Jaya down”, there is a genuine fear that he/she will carry out that threat, or at least someone else will, because he/she urged and incited them to. At the very least, he/she put that thought in peoples’ minds.

    She should explain herself. But I suspect the DAP will not allow her to do that.

    Reply
    • 33. Nick  |  August 1, 2011 at 3:23 pm

      Don,

      Thank you for agreeing that we can disagree with each other and still have peace and harmony. However, I am still with the opinion that Lilian is well within her right to think and voicing out her thoughts (provided she does not incite violence, bigotry and racist propaganda).

      Let’s analyze the full sentence of “I think all christian should march for all the persecution they have done to us and our lord”. “All christian should march” doesn’t sound very menacing and being in a democratic country, anyone and everyone can go to the street to voice out their displeasure or to gather peacefully with fellow citizen professing their united voice. BERSIH did that (for the well being of all Malaysian democratic citizens and not just a specific segment of the population) and those candle light vigils for ISA detainee some time ago was of the same spirit and mannerism. So asking fellow christian who has the same thought and who agree with her to gather around and maybe march to show that they too have something that they are not pleased with is normal in a democracy. (It’s just that the Govt have been using the May13 incident as “a rule that everyone must follow and remember” to eliminate the culture of peaceful gathering and marching).

      It is perplexing that so many ACTUAL marches and demos organized by UMNO PP and PERKASA that is far more dangerous with racial and religious provocation were allowed on the street (with no one deeming it a VERY serious threat to national security). But here, a mere thought or basically a personal tweet of “I think” received a tsunami of backlashes. I find that very insulting and I stand by my opinion that anyone who seriously believe that tweet is provoking chaos and inciting riot is infected with IA self-righteousness and patronizing disease (with a sprinkling of May13 phobia clouding their subconscious).

      So then even in a democracy, we Malaysian doesn’t see marches and demo as something that is basic and thus the govt succeeded in brainwashing us into thinking that anyone who is gathering up people and marching is incitement and thus trying to create chaos and disorder. The point here is that in a democracy, calling for marches and maybe a demonstration or two, is a privileged right enshrined in the constitution. It is Only that Malaysian have been brainwashed into thinking that any segment of the society or the population gathering together is a sure cause for religious or racial discord and riot. AND WE SHOULDN’T THINK LIKE THAT! Everyone and every religion has equal right in a democratic country and Malaysian has to start learning that and accepting it wholeheartedly.

      Nick.
      GOD bless.

      Reply
      • 34. Don  |  August 2, 2011 at 9:44 am

        Hi Nick,

        Let’s rad again Lilian’s statement:
        “I think all christian should march for all the persecution they have done to us and our lord”
        “I think all christians should march”, read in isolation, seems fine, one can make the excuse that Lilian was just thinking out aloud.

        But she went on to say, “for the persecution they have done to us”. Who did the persecution? Persecuted whom? What’s the nature of the persecution? In what context did did she use the description “persecution”? Lilian doesn’t explain these.

        That, I will say, is not only an incitement, but an accusation of the highest order. Seems to me that she meant that the Govt persecuted all christians, Surely, then, she must be able to explain and list out the persecution done to ‘us’. I don’t think that the Govt. persecuted ‘us’. The catholic church shot itself in the foot. However, that is another matter.

        Then she complicated things further, by saying, “persecution done to our Lord”. Again one must ask, “Who did the persecution? What’s the nature of the persecution? Etc. etc. etc.

        What Lilian said was this, and it is very crystal clear, “the Govt. persecuted us christians and our Lord, so let’s march against them”.

        That Sir, I submit, is not only an incitement, but and an outright accusation as well.

        Bersih marched for electoral reforms, and they outlined eight demands from the Govt. And they explained and it was clear what they we walking for. Whether I support that or not, is irrelevant. Their intentions and purpose was clear and it was made known to all, the electorate and the Govt.

        But Lilian incited us christians to march, against the Govt., “for all the persecution that the Govt. has done to us christians, and the persecution that the Govt. has done to our Lord”.

        That surely can’t be right, can it?

        if she had made a genuine mistake, then she should say so, and Tony Yew gave her that opportunity to apologise, before he made a police report. Why didn’t Lilian apologise then? She could have, but she refused to.

        I say that she refused to apologise because, an apology from her, is like an apology by the DAP and LGE. And she has made the choice to allow the DAP to victimise and manipulate her, for their political purposes, then she has only herself to blame.

        I rest my case.

        God Bless you too Sir.
        Don

        Reply
  • 35. SpeakUp  |  August 1, 2011 at 10:35 am

    Lillian is a loose canon, she is known to hammer anyone who works with LGE but never LGE himself who she adores to bits. Ask anyone who is close to her and this can be verified. As for her talk on Christianity, ask her to read the Bible properly. PERSECUTION is part of Christianity, Christ himself warned of this as a reality. Does she know her Bible? No she does not, try asking her about the Bible.

    This is not about bashing PR or supporting BN, this is about loose canons who are ready to do anything blindly. They profess they want to see JUSTICE but they cannot do it. She is more than happy as a Citizen Journalist to make anyone within LGE’s team look bad if she does not like them. She has done it before with some interesting videos, search for her videos in YouTube and you can find one or two that she made to hurt someone in LGE’s team. Try it and see for yourself.

    Can this woman be trusted as a professional in her job? No she can’t. Its about idolising LGE only. Anyone else can go fly kites.

    Reply
  • 36. pinknpurplelizard  |  August 1, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Let’s face it, BN also solicits the Chrisitian votes and supports except they do it with less sincerity and better acting. Penang’s ex-CM did it time and again esp when election draws near. I know of people with first hand experience of watching Ah Khoon reprise this act. For now, BN can go bury themselves but DAP should not be complacent about their position.

    Lilian’s gob has gotten her in trouble and it was only a matter of time that it would happen. I am not condoning or condemning but we are all pawns in someone’s game (if we are to look at the bigger picture). Politician’s use every thing in reach as part of their armament. I just like to live to see change in this country and not see it be further turned into a bigger eyesore.

    Reply
    • 37. SpeakUp  |  August 1, 2011 at 6:15 pm

      Yes, we are all mere pawns. That is how both sides play it, RPK was a pawn in the SD, Kuli and DSAI played him out. That is the fact.

      Reply
  • 38. James  |  August 1, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Just a mercenary writing for some contract from UMNO clowns.

    Reply
    • 39. SpeakUp  |  August 1, 2011 at 6:14 pm

      Anyone who does not praise PR is a mercenary for UMNO, anyone who writes cr@p without evidence but calls UMNO leaders anything is called a HERO. Malaysia Boleh la …. we are so so doomed.

      Reply
  • 40. Ken Ooi  |  August 1, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    Don,

    It is unfortunate that Lillian happens to be associated with the DAP. Are you implying that, if other people who are not associated with the DAP, were to think the way Lillian does and also utter that one special sentence, they should also be arrested by the Police and have their computer confiscated for inciting the public to march? Or is this rule applicable to Lillian only because she is a DAP supporter?

    Reply
    • 41. Don  |  August 2, 2011 at 12:37 am

      That is a moot question Ken, because if Lilian wasn’t a DAP person, she would have apologised a long time ago, and things would not have come to this stage.
      Anyone who incites people the way Lilian did, should have to explain the meaning of what she meant, and if she/he can’t, they should face the consequences. Anyway, a police report has been made, and the police will have to act. Lilian has not, so far, made any attempts to explain anything. That only indicates how stubborn she really is. Or, she is being manipulated by the DAP. it might be perceived that an apology from Lilian, would be seen as an apology from the DAP.

      Reply
      • 42. HuaYong  |  August 2, 2011 at 10:24 am

        Don, your comment have too much speculation and i don’t know where you are heading to. I think Helen point is more on double standard pertaining to DAP and PAS towards religion.

        Reply
      • 43. Ken Ooi  |  August 4, 2011 at 8:57 pm

        I have seen many people making inflamatory statements and I have not seen them apologise and neither have they been arrested. Why pick on Lillian? If there is a similiar case of someone being arrested, please tell me, or is Lillian the first ever in Malaysia to be arrested under such circumstances?

        Reply
  • 44. Eric Mudasi  |  August 1, 2011 at 11:21 pm

    How powerful is the Evangelical lobby in the US ….
    the C Street House, known as The Family, or the Fellowship… is exerting its political & monetary influence on Ugandan politicians . At stake is the Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality Bill or the “kill-the-gays” bill or GENOCIDE

    http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/12/09/5616533-the-david-bahati-interview

    Reply
  • 45. Eric Mudasi  |  August 1, 2011 at 11:25 pm

    Everybody and his dog understands UMNO’s divide & rule playbook & PAS commitment to invoke ISLAM where pertinent or controversial…

    it is this Evangelical A-holes in the DAP that may cause “the wheels to fall off the wagon” as Malaysia “journeys into the New Frontier”.

    HEY DUM-ASS…. I am talking to you (DAP) …
    WHY give UMNO ammo ??

    Utusan has been reduced to wrapping kacang putih & fish …

    http://anilnetto.com/religion-and-ethnicity/christianity/utusan-malaysia-at-it-again/

    Reply
    • 46. Don  |  August 4, 2011 at 10:02 pm

      HuaYong,

      This is what I wrote to Nick:
      Let’s read again Lilian’s statement:
      “I think all christian should march for all the persecution they have done to us and our lord”
      “I think all christians should march”, read in isolation, seems fine, one can make the excuse that Lilian was just thinking out aloud.

      But she went on to say, “for the persecution they have done to us”. Who did the persecution? Persecuted whom? What’s the nature of the persecution? In what context did did she use the description “persecution”? Lilian doesn’t explain these.

      That, I will say, is not only an incitement, but an accusation of the highest order. Seems to me that she meant that the Govt persecuted all christians, Surely, then, she must be able to explain and list out the persecution done to ‘us’. I don’t think that the Govt. persecuted ‘us’. The catholic church shot itself in the foot. However, that is another matter.

      Then she complicated things further, by saying, “persecution done to our Lord”. Again one must ask, “Who did the persecution? What’s the nature of the persecution? Etc. etc. etc.

      What Lilian said was this, and it is very crystal clear, “the Govt. persecuted us christians and our Lord, so let’s march against them”.

      That Sir, I submit, is not only an incitement, but and an outright accusation as well.

      Bersih marched for electoral reforms, and they outlined eight demands from the Govt. And they explained and it was clear what they we walking for. Whether I support that or not, is irrelevant. Their intentions and purpose was clear and it was made known to all, the electorate and the Govt.

      But Lilian incited us christians to march, against the Govt., “for all the persecution that the Govt. has done to us christians, and the persecution that the Govt. has done to our Lord”.

      Can anyone be more specific that that? And yet you say that I write too much speculation. You and Ken Ooi, have come to a stage, where you both are arguing for the sake of arguing, and that can happen, is we will be going around and around in circles, with no end.

      You and Ken should just answer the simple questions that I have raised. Then I will reply, provided you both answer my questions, which, for both your benefit, I will repeat.

      Quote:
      for the persecution they have done to us”. Who did the persecution? Persecuted whom? What’s the nature of the persecution? In what context did did she use the description “persecution”? Lilian doesn’t explain these.
      Unquote

      And:

      Quote:
      “persecution done to our Lord”. Again one must ask, “Who did the persecution? What’s the nature of the persecution? Etc. etc. etc.
      Unquote

      It’s obvious that you have both come to the end of your intellectual prowess, and you should both not say anything at all.

      Reply
      • 47. Ju  |  August 5, 2011 at 2:38 pm

        I am a Christian and Lilian Chan does not represent me! She is one of those self rightious persons of whom there appear to be numerous numbers floating around blogsphere (on both sides of the divide). I agree with the points put forward by Don.

        Reply
  • 48. Archie Aloysius  |  August 2, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    Eric,

    Why are you harping on “the Evangelical A-holes”? Are you referring to your own a-hole? Argue all you want but never, never be a “smart alec” in criticising any religion, including your own if you have any! If you don’t have any intelligent thing to comment on, just shut your putrefactive gap and a-hole!

    Reply
  • 49. Don  |  August 4, 2011 at 10:16 pm

    Stop blaming UMNO and Utusan for what Lilian said. UMNO and Utusan, did not call on Lilian to make that statement, she did it on her own accord. And yet, when called upon to explain what she said, she seems not to be able to, or doesn’t want to. That is shameful. If Lilian is allowed to walk away, then everyone should be allowed to say similar things, without a need to explain, then where would that take us? A lawless society.

    I have never, ever, heard of a christian, saying something inappropiate,, and then explain it by saying, “but the malays, the buddhists, the hindus; the taoists, the sikhs, etc. have said worst things to us christians, why can’t I say something similar to them”?

    You know, an eye for an eye, kind of response.

    That is the way these justifications for Lilian seem to be headed.

    And that even more tragic, than what Lilian has said.

    A rational christian would tell Lilian, “sorry ma’am, that is inappropiate and unfair, do apologise and we can move on”. That is how we can redeem some of the respect that the catholic church has lost for us. We can, then, more importantly, redeem the respect, of and from, people of our own faith.

    It’s as simple as that. But the DAP will complicate things and make it political.

    Reply
  • 50. HuaYong  |  August 5, 2011 at 8:52 am

    To Don,

    I comment on your Ogos 2, 2011 at 12:37am post and you repeat the same argument which is not relevant. Re-read your own comment again please :

    “because if Lilian wasn’t a DAP person, she would have apologised a long time ago, and things would not have come to this stage.”

    “should have to explain the meaning of what she meant, and if she/he can’t, they should face the consequences”

    “Lilian has not, so far, made any attempts to explain anything. That only indicates how stubborn she really is. Or, she is being manipulated by the DAP. it might be perceived that an apology from Lilian, would be seen as an apology from the DAP.”

    I think what you wrote is purely your own opinion and speculation, but of course you can substantiate your claim with more proof and fact before calling me to shut up.

    PS / Helen, why the numbering keep on changing, it doesn’t serve much purpose if that is the case.

    ______________________________

    Dear HuaYong,

    The numbers go along as the comments keep coming in. However, if a reader uses the ‘Reply’ mode, then he pops in between the older and newer comments and this affects the numbering — which you have noticed.

    Best to refer to conversation threads by the time stamp, then.

    Cheers,
    Helen

    Reply
    • 51. Don  |  August 5, 2011 at 5:05 pm

      Hua Yong,

      Now, if indeed someone does reply my questions, then I would have not to repeat the same questions, over and over again, would I?

      Read the entire thread, and tell me if someone has come close to answering my questions.

      Asking Lilian to explain, what she meant, by what she said, which is not in dispute, is according to you, “purely my own opinion and speculation”.

      Is it my opinion that Lilian said what she said? Is it mere speculation that she is alleged to have said what she said?

      And because I asked Lilian to explain the meaning of what she said, again which is not in dispute, I must now, again according to you, I, must provide “more proof and fact”. Proof and fact of what Hua Yong?

      How do you think of such things, I wonder?

      That is why I have said, you have come to the end of your intellectual prowess, and expecting more from you, is a mere waste of time.

      Remember the saying, “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt.”, well Hua Yong, you come to mind.

      Reply
  • 52. HuaYong  |  August 5, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    To Don,

    Perhaps no one is answering your question because what you said is correct? So what kind of reply you expect from us? And I already make it very clear i am referring to what you wrote in Ogos 2, 2011 at 12:37am post, especially when you relate the issue to DAP with plenty of speculation using word like if, would have, would not, indicate, or, might be, would be seen and etc, I merely wanted to tell you I don’t know where you are heading to and what you are trying to imply.

    I pointed out this for the third time, not sure if you are that slow or you reading comprehension fail you, but whatever.

    Reply
  • 53. Don  |  August 6, 2011 at 12:16 am

    Hua Yong,
    If what I said is correct, then there is nothing to argue and discuss, is there Hua Yong. It seems that now you are holding the candle for the DAP, are you? The DAP has appointed you, have they?
    You are telling me that words like: “would have, would not, indicate, or, might be, would be seen as” are speculative? Where did you get that idea from?

    You see, you have no arguments to articulate, just mere accusations and insinuations, and they are of no use.

    You are a lost cause Hua Yong, really, really beyond redemption. I shan’t waste my time on you anymore.

    Reply
  • 54. HuaYong  |  August 6, 2011 at 10:03 am

    Don,

    Hmmm…DAP appointed me? Another speculation? Do you seriously have attention deficit? It’s like I’m speaking to a person who cannot hear, and writing to a person who cannot read. Perhaps it’s both. Good to hear that you treasure you time, me too.

    Reply
  • 55. Don  |  August 6, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    *** Edited ***

    Let’s please put a close to this. After all, we’re all on the same side, I hope. Cheers, Helen

    Reply
  • 56. HuaYong  |  August 11, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    Btw Helen, i also hope we are on the same side, though i doubt it very much knowing that more than 80% (in this blog) of your articles “criticise” PR or DAP. I don’t pretend i am neutral and not partisan, but i try to be one, and prefer to criticise those that hold power and have the capabilities to effect changes.

    To Don, sorry if i sound too harsh, sometimes i am a bit emotional.

    Reply
  • 57. Don  |  August 14, 2011 at 7:04 am

    Likewise with me, after all, we are all human Hua Yong. Have a lovely Sunday.

    Reply

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