Kemelut DUMC: Diberi betis nak peha

October 11, 2011 at 2:54 am 69 comments

Meskipun kekalutan cuba dileraikan dengan cara berhemah, namun golongan Kristian masih lagi merajuk dan meronta-ronta tidak puas hati.

Perihal isu pemeriksaan Jais pada majlis makan malam Thanksgiving di gereja Methodist Damansara Utama (DUMC) Ogos lalu:

Sultan Sharafuddin Idris Shah bertitah, berdasarkan kepada siasatan Jais, terdapat keterangan bahawa ada cubaan untuk memesongkan kepercayaan dan akidah umat Islam tetapi bukti yang diperoleh tidak mencukupi untuk diambil tindakan undang-undang. mStar

Mengikut satu rencana Malaysiakini, Bishop Katholik, Paul Tan Chee Ing telah berkata bahawa titah baginda sultan ibarat “dipped in the ambiguity that would make wanton accusations against Christians no more difficult in the future than it is now.”

(Ketaksaan jalan penyelesaian yang diputuskan ini akan membolehkan tuduhan dilemparkan terhadap orang Kristian kelak dengan sewenang-wenangnya dan begitu senang sekali).

Tambah Bishop Paul Tan:

“Begging the Tuanku’s pardon, how is it possible to assert that there were attempts to deviate the faith of Muslim attendees at the dinner function at the DUMC but there is, then, not sufficient evidence to prefer charges. If there is not enough evidence, there ought to be no imputation of wrongdoing – it’s as simple as that!”

(Dia mengajukan bahawa sekiranya bukti tidak mencukupi maka tidak seharusnya DUMC dibayangkan sebagai terbabit salah laku.)

Bishop Paul, yang juga presiden Persidangan Bishop-Bishop Katholik Malaysia, menegaskan bahawa titah sultan menggambarkan yang penganjur beragama Kristian majlis makan malam tersebut mungkin nampaknya sudah dibebaskan tetapi nama mereka belum dibersihkan daripada tanggapan cuba memurtadkan orang Islam.

Katanya: “I would have much preferred no statement at all to one that is neither here nor there.” (Lebih baik jika tidak dikeluarkan apa-apapun kenyataan rasmi daripada yang ini yang samar-samar.)

“Christians have waited patiently for exoneration from false accusations by people whose intent is to grandstand on behalf of their losing causes.”

(Orang Kristian telahpun menunggu dengan sabarnya untuk dilepaskan daripada tuduhan-tuduhan palsu ini yang dibuat oleh satu kelompok yang sedang bermain sandiwara dengan hasrat menambah saham kerana mereka semakin kehilangan modal.)

Bishop Paul mengakhiri temuramah dengan pesanan:


Terjemahan: Baik juga pilihanraya umum dijangka diadakan dalam masa terdekat ini kerana nampaknya kempen jelek yang mensasarkan orang Kristian, di mana [masyarakat kami] disindir serta diburuk-burukkan melalui serangan bertubi-tubi, tidak akan tamat. Satu-satunya usaha untuk kami mengelak daripada penganiayaan berunsurkan fitnah keji ialah dengan mengunakan kuasa undi yang dipegang di tangan.

[Untuk mengenali siapakah Bishop Paul Tan, baca sini.]

Para penganut Kristian yang lain pula tidak segan silu untuk meninggalkan komen-komen yang lagi keras dan kesat.

Mereka tidak ada kesedaran bahawa penyelesaian yang baik ini hanya dimungkinkan dengan ihsan baginda Sultan serta hati lembut Menteri Besar Selangor Khalid Ibrahim yang mahu menjaga ketenteraman awam.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

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Chan Lilian’s series of denials

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69 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 11, 2011 at 6:32 am

    Hi Helen,

    Let’s look at it from a principled perspectives.

    (1) Philosophy – Do we want moral policing (not only proselytising but also morality, etc). Is this consistent with a country that wants to be called a “developed country”

    (2) Rule of Law – Does JAIS have the powers to conduct search/raid of private properties? If it does, did it conduct it within the stipulated manner?

    (3) Why the length of time needed to produce this report?

    (4) Why is the report not conclusive? (There is evidence but insufficient to prosecute?)

    With regards to Bishop Paul Tan. In my opinion he is voicing his opinion as the guardian of the Catholic Church. However, Catholicism has undergone substantial transformation since the Renaissance, that majority of Catholics, while respecting the views of the Bishop, are not feudalistic, and can make their own decisions.

    This search/raid, for me, is clearly, another breach of the protection of minority rights.

    If you have evidence, for God’s sake, charge those Christians in court – send them to jail, hell cut off their hands or heads if your religion says so.

    But don’ create stupid controversies just to win votes.

    Reply
    • 2. Helen Ang  |  October 11, 2011 at 11:49 am

      Hi Greg,

      (1) Your question: Do we want moral policing? My reply: Bishop Paul Tan has famously said that if the Kelantanese are agreeable to hudud, then he does not oppose its implementation to regulate Muslims. Therefore going by the ‘consistency’ argument, the Bishop belongs to the ‘Yes, we do’ camp.

      (2) Q: Does Jais have the power to conduct search/raid of private properties? By law, yes. Q: Did Jais follow SOP? The Sultan’s decree said Jais did not breach any laws.

      (3) Q: Why the length of time needed to produce this report? One either believes that the Malays at the event were Christian or they were not. Read the Sultan’s decree again and carefully. The report took this long given the gravity and sensitivity of the situation.

      (4) Q: Why is the report not conclusive? A full report was submitted. The Sultan’s decree said: “We hope that the people … do not misconstrue and dispute the actions of Jais before knowing exactly the true facts of the actions taken.”

      Greg, you also query: “There is evidence but insufficient to prosecute?” My reply: Can you not see the wisdom, if not the kindness, of the decision to withhold prosecution?

      With regard to Bishop Paul Tan, in my opinion he should just throw his hat in the political ring because he sure is behaving like a political animal.

      And as for “the protection of minority rights”, what do you think of Pakatan’s role vis-a-vis the expansion of hudud? Christian opposition supporters seem unable to see that they’re barking up the wrong tree over this DUMC matter.

      Reply
      • 3. ikhwan  |  October 11, 2011 at 3:20 pm

        I cant say it better than what you have already said Helen.

        It is good to see some fellow true Malaysian like you that do understand the meaning of “berdasarkan kepada siasatan Jais, terdapat keterangan bahawa ada cubaan untuk memesongkan kepercayaan dan akidah umat Islam tetapi bukti yang diperoleh tidak mencukupi untuk diambil tindakan undang-undang” were meant to be a polite way to see the case close in “harmonious” way.

        I bet that if they (Sultan and JAIS) wanted, they could have pursue the case until it comes to its bitter conclusion.

        Reply
    • 4. Xiu Roon  |  October 12, 2011 at 5:10 pm

      Just close the DUMC and move it to Italy where they can do The Thanksgiven Dinner every day, not only at night even at anytime. Malaysia is a Muslim country, remember that.

      Reply
  • 5. Hussin Rahman  |  October 11, 2011 at 6:36 am

    Penggiat Kriatian di Malaysia sudah melanggar pantang agama mereka sendiri: Jangan sakitkan hati sesiapa. Sekarang orang Islam di Malaysia sangat sakit hati kepada orang Kristian.

    Reply
    • 6. Xiu Roon  |  October 12, 2011 at 5:01 pm

      Just close the DUMC and move it to Italy where they can do The Thanksgiven Dinner every day, not only at night even at anytime. Malaysia is a Muslim country, belong to Malay Muslim.

      Reply
  • 7. s  |  October 11, 2011 at 7:52 am

    Lets debate ! Islam vs Christian.

    Reply
    • 8. Xiu Roon  |  October 12, 2011 at 5:08 pm

      Before we start the debate, its better you search in the google – “Ahmad Deedat”. He has debated with top Christian Bishop around the world, and want to know the result? Hehe start searching now and you’ll knew it.

      Close the DUMC!

      Reply
  • 9. dinturtle  |  October 11, 2011 at 8:33 am

    salam Puan,

    mohon sekali lagi copy parts dan link untuk artikel ini. Tidak lupa TerimaKasih kerana menjadi bukti yang ‘all is not lost yet ‘ kerana masih ada mereka yang mampu berfikir secara rasional yang memiliki sifat bertolak ansur dan memahami keperluan bersikap terbuka dalam kita mengakui perbezaan yang wujud dalam masyarakat berbilang kaum dan agama.

    Reply
  • 10. subra  |  October 11, 2011 at 9:31 am

    religion + politic = ?

    Reply
  • 11. tokngah  |  October 11, 2011 at 10:03 am

    If DUMC thinks they are falsely accused, they can sue those accusing them for defamation. They can also sue JAIS for tresspas.

    But of course they dare not to because the truth will come out in court.

    Reply
  • 12. Darlyn Azlinda  |  October 11, 2011 at 10:49 am

    Kalau dah keluar laporan tu menyatakan begitu, terima la hakikat memang terdapat bukti menolak kepada pihak gereja tersebut. Baginda takde la kate semua orang kristian camtu kan? Maksudnya orang Kristian Malaysian kena pastikan mereka tak langgar akta perlembagaan la. Lagipun, tak salah kalo terima dengan hati yg terbuka kan? Malaysia bukan jahat sangat nak menindas kaum agama lain. Berapa banyak church, tokong and kuil mengalahkan masjid dan surau kat Malaysia ni kita ada. Tu la, dah bagi betis nak dada. bukan paha dah. paha ayam sekarang pun dah kecik. dada ayam lagi byk isi lagi sedap, kenyang.mungkin sebab makan cili, that’s why rasa pedas sangat?

    Reply
  • 13. husin ahmad  |  October 11, 2011 at 11:37 am

    Hi Helen,

    What you wrote today was almost precisely how I thought you would react when I read Bishop Paul’s comment yesterday.

    I suspected that Bishop Paul secretly wished that court action were actually taken against DUMC – so things could get worse, and the BN government would be dragged into this quagmire – which guarantees that no one wins – except for Bishop Paul, who could play the role of the defender of the oppressed. (We could read it all in Malaysiakini, of course.)

    And I suspected that Jais has a good case if this goes to court, but realized the sensitivity of the issue will create a greater problem. Instead they opted for ‘cara berhemah.’ Very wise of them.

    How in the world can a ‘no-statement’, as preferred by Bishop Paul, would make the case clearer? That’s laughable. There will be no closure. The video circulated in the net is very clear of their intention – even the non-muslim non-christian can see it. The Sultan’s statement is unambiguous and a stern warning: “You know you what you did is illegal in this country, so don’t continue doing it.”

    The decision the Sultan arrived at is as a result of the recommendation made by the committee headed by PR government CM which have studied the evidence and questioned both sides. So Bishop Paul thought that the ballot box would teach them a lesson. How? The Sultan is not elected. Or perhaps the Christion should vote BN instead? Hmm.. that’s not a bad idea.

    Reply
  • 14. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 11, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Hi Greg,
    (1) Your question: Do we want moral policing? My reply: Bishop Paul Tan has famously said that if the Kelantanese are agreeable to hudud, then he does not oppose its implementation to regulate Muslims. Therefore going by the ‘consistency’ argument, the Bishop belongs to the ‘Yes, we do’ camp.

    ————————
    Greg: As I have noted that Bishop Paul does not speak for Christians. We are capable of making our own decisions. Bishop Paul may support Hudud but I can say with some certainty, most Christians don’t.

    Which brings us to the more important question – do we (the citizens of Malaysia) want the state to regulate our private behaviours?
    ————————————–

    (2) Q: Does Jais have the powers to conduct search/raid of private properties? By law, yes. Q: Did Jais follow SOP? The Sultan’s decree said Jais did not breach any laws.

    —————————————-
    Greg: While the Sultan has powers over Islam and hence JAIS, clearly the Sultan cannot determine if JAIS has acted accordingly. Furthermore, if JAIS has acted according to SOP, why is there a need to develop a new SOP?

    Secondly, why type of democracy is this when an individual can decree what is right and what is wrong?
    ——————————————————————–

    (3) Q: Why the length of time needed to produce this report? One either believes that the Malays at the event were Christian or they were not. Read the Sultan’s decree again and carefully. The report took this long given the gravity and sensitivity of the situation.

    —————————–
    GREG: I would rather JAIS charged these “guilty” Christians in court and bring this to a logical conclusion rather than addressing the sensitivity – whose sensitivity are we talking about?

    [Is there no presumption of innocence until proven guilty in Islamic laws?]

    Due to the lack of clarity, I believe what RPK says – that Hasan Ali wanted to create problems for PAS in Selangor. The Sultan is only protecting JAIS.

    I can’t see how Christians are protected here. Unless your suggesting that if DUMC was charged, then some Muslims would run amok and kill Christians?

    Although I don’t think Malaysian Muslims are that stupid
    ————————————————————-

    (4) Q: Why is the report not conclusive? A full report was submitted. The Sultan’s decree said: “We hope that the people … do not misconstrue and dispute the actions of Jais before knowing exactly the true facts of the actions taken.”

    ——
    Greg: That is why there should be a transparent process to determine what happened. Enough of these elite settlements.

    ————————————–

    Greg, you also query: “There is evidence but insufficient to prosecute?” My reply: Can’t you see the wisdom, if not the kindness, of the decision to withhold prosecution?

    ———————————-

    Greg: As noted, I would prefer Christians be charged and clear the air once and for all, rather than insinuations. The law says that no proselytisation to Muslims. It may be an unfair law but it is a law nevertheless. All Malaysians should follow it. It will send a very clear message to any Christian thinking of doing this.

    I don’t want kindness, I want the rule of law.

    —————————————————–

    With regard to Bishop Paul Tan, in my opinion he should just throw his hat in the political ring because he sure is behaving like a political animal.

    ————————-

    Greg: He is a Jesuit with a track record in social justice issues. I welcome his involvement. But as noted, Christians do not have herd mentality and can think for themselves.

    —————————————-

    And as for the protection of minority rights, what do you think of Pakatan’s role vis-a-vis the expansion of hudud? Christian opposition supporters seem unable to see that they’re barking up the wrong tree over this DUMC matter.

    ————————————–

    Greg: As noted, Pakatan is dead wrong in Hudud (other than PAS ofcourse, who have the right to promote Hudud as part of their ideology.

    But I think you are wrong Helen (on Christians opposition supporters)

    (1) Can you can demonstrate clearly to me that DUMC had been involved in proselytisation?
    (2) Does the presumption of innocent until proven guilty not hold?
    (3) Is it wrong for Muslims to be in a church?

    Reply
    • 15. nao  |  October 11, 2011 at 10:14 pm

      Mr Lopez,
      your views are so shallow & it seems you lack of sensitivity living in a majority Muslims country.

      Your day dreaming time absolutely tells us you still living in a fairy tales Christian kingdom.

      Reply
  • [...] Read some-more HERE. [...]

    Reply
  • 17. Iqraq  |  October 11, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    Spot on Helen. Elegant and incisive.

    Reply
  • 18. anak perak  |  October 11, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    Do not make matters any worse than it already is. Its good enough that this matter is closed. I personally do not think that Christians were being persecuted in Malaysia. In fact they are free to preach the Good News to all and sundry except to the Muslims. I think that’s fair given that Malaysia professes Islam as its official religion. Let’s leave it as that. I was a Christian before converting to Islam some 15 years ago and there are a lot of similarities in the teachings and beliefs of Christianity and Islam. Let us all refrain from mixing politics with religion – it almost always would get out of hand.

    Reply
  • 19. maae  |  October 11, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    1.Sultan sudah tegur.Malah tiada tindakan akan di ambil. Apa lagi yang kurang? Kenapa masih KURANG AJAR, jika betul-betul menghayati fahaman kristian? Kristian mengajar menjadi biadab? Tidak pula saya jumpa dalam kitab anda.

    2.Masih tegar menegakkan benang basah?Adakah bishop Paul Tan lebih tinggi darjat dari Sultan atau YM Agong dan Ulama-Ulama Tersohor Islam di Malaysia di mana Agama Rasmi ialah ISLAM? Malaysia bukan Negara KRistian! Kenapa memanipulasi perkara sensitif ini? DUMC ternyata salah dan haram tidak berdaftar. Bukan kah lebih baik akur dan berpijak di bumi nyata! Masih berselindung di balik lalang sehelai? Kenapa tidak merujuk kepada Jabatan Agama Islam jika melayu-melayu sesat itu ikut serta? Kenapa amabil kesempatan dan bertindak sendiri?

    3.Semoga semua penganut kristian dan B.Paul Tan lebih tahu dan berilmu dalam tuntutan agama masing-masing. Kenapa tidak mentarbiyyah para penganut buddha,hindu,yang atheis,yang liberal atau lain lain anutan fahaman di mana arak, zina, judi, makan riba, makan khinzir, tidak perlu menghormati ibu bapa dan yang tua, berparti liar mabuk perempuan lelaki bergaul tiada batas siang malam, hiburan lalok di sulam ketagihan dadah moden(pil-pil), tidak perlu ‘pray’ kecuali bakar colok dan ke kuil-kuil pada hari-hari tertentu, menyembah dewa dan patung batu, patung besi/emas dan berbagai-bagai lagi ritual seumpamanya yang di bolehkan dan tiada batas larangan nya dalam ajaran masing-masing.

    5.Bagi yang memahami, Ilmu Islam itu CUKUP sempurna dan cukup lengkap. Ia meliputi yang ghaib dan nyata, atau yang samar-samar dalam erti ketinggian ilmu untuk mentafsirkan nya. Begitu Lengkap TANPA cacat cela melingkupi peradaban kejadian manusia, melingkupi segala-gala dari yang tidak kelihatan sehingga sebasar-besar nya dalam kejadian NYA. Gunung ganang dan isi perut nya, lautan dan isi perut nya berserta semua jenis tumbuh-tumbuhan dan semua jenis haiwan, malah berhubung kait di antara nya melengkapi sempurna untuk KEJADIAN LANGIT DAN BUMI. Tiada siapa yang boleh mengatasi ILMU Allah, DIA dan KEKUASAAN NYA!

    6.Maaf,Helen, sedikit dakwah kenapa AKIDAH Islam itu TIDAK boleh di pesongkan sesuka hati oleh sesiapa pun. Jika indidvidu itu Islam, maka tanggung jawab nya kepada Islam sudah menjadi WAJIB. Tidak boleh SYIRIK dan merendahkan mertabat Islam sehingga sama kedudukan nya dengan FIKIRAN MANUSIA yang Allah jadikan dari setetes air mani yang hina.

    Ini lah JIHAD Umat Islam lain untuk MENJAGA AMANAH ALLAH Yang Maha Suci. Semoga B.Paul Tan dan pengikut nya faham dan memahami. Hentikankan perkara yang merugikan semua pihak dan ikut fahaman masing-masing ! Kita saling menghormati.

    Reply
    • 20. Hang Janggut  |  February 1, 2013 at 10:45 pm

      Satu perkara perlu ingat. Gereja terang-terang ada tanda salib kenapa orang-orang Islam nak masuk juga. Bagi kristian orang datang nak dinner kita persilakan masuk xkan halau ler pula. Itu ler agama hang haramkan masuk tempat ibadat orang sebab korang tu lemah iman. Maae nama saja islam iman separuh-separuh. Akai tarak. Hang memang xda moral mmg xpenah belajak pon. Tu tarak toleransi perkauman.

      Reply
  • 21. Forrestcat  |  October 11, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    encik Lopez,

    Saya rasa kelakar baca tulisan tuan.

    nietzche once said, Justice is fair only between equals..know the place of Christianity dude! if your bishop is so involved in socisl judtice, please help the victims of rape by his peers in the west thank you.

    Ironically, bishop paul tan is not even elected too….so do not listen to him just like you refuse to listen to the Sultan.

    Herd mentalty not prevalent among christians? So having a goofy portuguese name could hide your hindu heritage just like bishop paul tan added paul to hide his ‘oriental heatenistic’ origins are purely your own choice? Hahaha

    Reply
  • 22. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 12, 2011 at 1:59 am

    forrestcat – The Federal Constitution states that all Malaysians are equal before the law except for our Royalty as they have immunity.

    This is also Malaysia’s biggest problem – that some Malays believe that the Malays and Islam is superior to other Malaysians and their religions. And until this is addressed, I am quite certain Malaysia is on its way to become a basket case.

    Islam is the religion for official purposes and not the official religion or national religion. Islam is not superior to other religions except that because we are a constitutional monarchy and our monarchs are Muslims, hence its special role in official functions. Read the discussions about and on the Fed. Constitution.

    Of course thanks to the competition between UMNO and PAS, and the fact that a majority of Malaysian still have feudalistic tendencies – Islam is now seen as superior to other religions. It is not.

    Bishop Paul is doing his duty to protect the Church according to the laws of Malaysia. The Sultan is not. Please ask the Sultan to make public the report and reveal the legal advice that he has received. Only then can we make a clear decision.

    A majority of Christians in Malaysia are not feudalistic. We can think and therefore do not blindly follow Bishop Paul. Christians have not bombed mosques, threatened jihad, insulted or humiliated other religions like Utusan Malaysia, many ustazs etc do in the mainstream media. Whenever we have grouses, we use democratic processes and the rule of law. Christians like most Malaysians (except for select UMNO members) are law abiding citizens.

    As mentioned if the Sultan has proof that we have broken the law, please take us to court. We do not need your mercy. We want the rule of law.

    Please read this book when you have the time and learn to think more intelligently about the role of the monarchy in a modern and progressive democracy. As Dr. Asri says, they are one of the main reasons for Malay backwardness.

    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/09/09/review-of-palace-political-party-and-power-tlcnmrev-xxviii/

    Reply
  • 23. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 12, 2011 at 2:11 am

    forrestcat – With regards to priests raping and/or molesting people in their care. Yes, it is a major crime and Christians are advocating that these priests be punished. There are now major cases in the US, Ireland, UK, Australia, etc against the Church. I welcome this. As noted, the rule of law must prevail. I also look forward to the day when rule of law will function in Malaysia.

    My goofy name. It was given to me. This is how I construct the story. The Portugese would have come to Kerala where my ancestors were. They were probably people from the lower strata of society as you know India practised the caste system. They would have converted to Christianity as it liberated them from the caste system and took on names of their colonisers as status symbols and a new identity (as names would denote their caste). I inherited these but ofcourse, not bound by it.

    You see forrestcat, I can put nation before race and religion – can you?

    Reply
  • 24. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 12, 2011 at 2:32 am

    This is also why, despite their limitation, Pakatan Rakyat is a better option than UMNO. PAS with its Islamicist stance is more liberal than a secular but patently corrupt UMNO that is now using religion to shore up its fast receding base.

    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/10/07/moving-forward-from-racial-tensions-in-malaysia/

    Reply
  • 25. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 12, 2011 at 9:59 am

    For those interested in the political dimensions of the DUMC raid, have a read of this article. (please read all of it, including the hyperlinks). I hope that you can see that the issue is not a Christian – Muslim fight, but a strategy employed by some individual and groups to stay in power.

    http://masterwordsmith-unplugged.blogspot.com/2011/08/hassan-ali-is-pakatans-ibrahim-ali.html

    In this era of the internet and open communications, its difficult to determine who is telling the truth. That is why we need a transparent process that has integrity. Only then will there be justice in Malaysia.

    Wishing the best for Malaysia always.

    Reply
  • 26. bisu  |  October 12, 2011 at 10:57 am

    Mr. Greg Lopez,

    You said – “Islam is the religion for official purposes and not the official religion or national religion. Islam is not superior to other religions except that because we are a constitutional monarchy and our monarchs are Muslims, hence its special role in official functions”.

    You are WRONG!! Article 3(1) of the Fed. Consti said:

    “Islam is the religion of the Federation”

    Nowhere does it say it is a religion for official purposes only??!! I’m afraid you’re the one who does not understand the Constitution. If it is only for official purposes, then there won’t be an express provision in Article 11(4) of the FC allowing States and Federal to “control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam”.

    Reply
  • 27. husin ahmad  |  October 12, 2011 at 11:01 am

    So when Nik Aziz said that women who don’t cover their hair (i.e. aurat) deserve to be raped – is that liberal enough for you. I’m sure he would be the spiritual leader of the nation if Pakatan wins the election. Ooohh.. I’m excited. Watch at 5:18. . .

    Reply
  • 28. Liberal Malasyian  |  October 12, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Obviously JAIS was the starter for all these. There were no apparent evidence, telling us that the Christian are teaching catechism to the Muslim, it is just a dinner gathering of sort.

    How about the Christian who attended the Muslim function and activities, were being subjected to all sort of doa and what not the Muslim does.

    I had been there thousand of time in my lifetime and yet I know ISLAM is NOT A TRUE religion, so I i just ignore it. Since Christian is the truth and it is the Words of God who will bring Jesus Christ the savior back to these World is nothing but a truth. Since human being by nature are scared of truth and because Christianity is the truth, so that is why these fiasco is happening. Hope everyone of us knows what I means here.

    Reply
  • 29. fakri  |  October 12, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Satu Rahmat: Azan Berkumandang di Gereja

    Reply
  • 30. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 12, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    @ bisu – What does religion of the federation mean to you? Does it mean we are an Islamic state like Pakistan or Iran?

    Please read this powerpoint. Its written by Prof. Shad Saleem Faruqi of UiTM to understand that Islam is not superior. Its special position is for official functions and also to legitimise state support for it i.e. the use of taxpayers’ money to support Islam and to protect it. It does not mean Islam is superior.

    It’s the same with special position of Malays – it means the state will help the Malays and protect it. It does not mean that Malays are superior.

    Here’s the link:

    or search in google for: Prof Dr Shad Saleem Faruqi’s Powerpoint Presentation.

    Or better, write to the good Professor himself: Shad247@salam.uitm.edu.my

    Reply
  • 31. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 12, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    In attempting to protect JAIS, the Sultan has sullied his reputation.

    http://www.themicahmandate.org/2011/10/jais-dumc-row-sultan-not-properly-informed/

    Reply
  • 32. Jason  |  October 12, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    I’ve never heard of Bishop Paul Tan talking about Christian love when it is the greatest commandment of the Lord-all I hear is constant ranting about justice and righteousness (more of the self-righteous pompous type). My Bible tells me that such articulations are like noisy cymbals, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing when there is no love for fellow human beings. how can Christians be respected by others when they don’t display love in their words and deeds. inded, let that clown strut n frets his idiotic tale on the stage for a litle while because soon he will be heard no more when people see through the hypocrisy of it all when the truth is known.

    Reply
  • 33. Iqraq  |  October 13, 2011 at 12:04 am

    Why is there still so much cognitive dissonance about this issue? It’s so bizarre! Those of you who still think DUMC is innocent have not examined the evidence. Muslims ALL know that the DUMC is guilty of breaking the law. There *was* evidence of proselytization by the church’s own admission. What kind of charity dinner sings songs titled ‘Alhamdulillah’ and ‘Allahuakbar’? What kind of charity dinner gives out a ‘quiz about Islam’? What’s up with that? We know what Christian evangelists are like, you can’t fool us, please la. If you are not happy about this law then have it changed through your elected representatives. Don’t break the law and then lie about it later.

    We can all live together harmoniously as long as certian boundaries are not crossed, I truly believe this. We need to learn about each other and understand each other. Please understand that proselytization to Muslims under the guise of charity is not just illegal but it is something that makes us very very very sakit hati. But an apology and a promise to not do it again would suffice, thank you. Peace.
    ______________________________________________________

    Great minds think alike?! You say, “If you are not happy about this law then have it changed through your elected representatives.” So did I. Here. — Helen

    Reply
  • 34. Iqraq  |  October 13, 2011 at 6:02 am

    @Liberal Malasyian. I don’t believe this is the platform to debate over whose religion is better. I would like however to highlight two points which are pertinent to the discussion.

    All religions would like to have more followers, that is natural. Muslims also engage in da’wah. However, da’wah in Islam means telling people about the actual *message*, e.g. giving non-Muslims copies of the Holy Qur’an. You don’t have to read it but you can if you want to. It mentions several times that Islam is “for those who think/reflect”, so conversion is not an ‘emotional’ decision.

    Muslims believe that “those whom Allah guides, none can misguide and those whom Allah misguides, none can guide”. Even the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when he became frustrated that so many people were against his Message wondered if he was preaching the wrong way, Allah instructed him not to worry about it. Basically just pass on the message, whether a person’s heart is open or not has nothing to do with humans, that power belongs to Allah. So Muslims don’t feel this frantic pressure to convert people, we are only told to pass the message. If hati terbuka, we welcome you as our brother/sister, if hati tak terbuka, nothing we can do, it’s not in our hands.

    Second point is that in Islam, there are concepts of ‘pahala’ (reward for good deeds) and ‘dosa’ (sin for bad deeds). On the Day of Judgement kita timbang and see where we will go. Hence one can perform charity with the intention of purely seeking Allah’s pleasure. No udang di sebalik batu. Last time I checked, Christians not only don’t get pahala but have to tanggung all of mankind’s dosa from Nabi Adam’s time (pbuh). So maybe this is why evangelists are so aggressive to fulifill the ‘Great Commission’, I dunno.

    Muslims are not the only ones who sakit hati with evangelists who disguise proselytization with charity. Buddhists and Hindus also sakit hati. So let’s all learn about each other and respect the boundaries which are important to us all, and InshAllah we will build a beautiful and successful nation. This is a reminder to myself and all my fellow Muslims also. Peace.

    http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18750/cambodia

    http://www.persecution.org/2011/06/16/india-expels-three-american-christian-women-for-proselytizing/

    Reply
  • 35. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 13, 2011 at 7:07 am

    Why are we bludgeoning each other, Malaysians. It is a fact Christian missionaries since time immemorial have a tendency to spread Christianity either spiritually or materially (ie in economic sense). Naturally it is one’s own choice either to reject or imbibe it.

    In modern days, methods have changed but still prevail mainly in rural & under privileged areas around the world. South Sudan is your latest example on its independence fully assisted by the Western Hemisphere.

    If you remember back in the 80’s in Malaysia, there were heavy activities in the estates geared towards the poor and marginalized Indians through material enrichment for conversion. Nothing against Christians, but it is a know trend so at least in malaysia amongst us let’s move on like what Iqrar says .

    Reply
  • 36. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 13, 2011 at 7:27 am

    @ Iqraq – interesting that you have come to conclusion of who is guilty without the due process of law. Are you Allah or is this how Islamic jurisprudence works – guilty (if I don’t like you – Chinese/Christian) until proven innocent and innocent (if i like you – Muslim/JAIS) until proven guilty.

    Agree with Iqraq and Helen that we should reverse the influence of Islam in Malaysia. Helen has showed clearly that Muslim majority countries worldwide are basket cases.

    http://helenang.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/negara-negara-paling-selamat-tiada-hudud/

    The only three Muslim majority countries that are successful are Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey. This is because they have secular laws. I of course do not blame Islam but for the not very enlightened/feudalistic people that promote a narrow view of Islam for their vested interests.

    The component parties in BN have made a grave error in allowing the influence of Islam on public life. Malaysians are also to be blamed for allowing this to happen by continuing to support BN where UMNO dominates. PAS does not have the influence of UMNO and in recent times have demonstrated wisdom in managing race & reglious relations.

    Its time now to roll back the influence of Islam before we become a basket case like all other countries that have mixed religion and politics.

    Reply
    • 37. qq  |  October 13, 2011 at 8:18 am

      Recipe for Happiness :-)

      1 cup of Confidence
      1 cup of Love
      In a pan of Happiness mix the above
      Add a touch of Tenderness
      And a tablespoon of Trust
      Stir well in the “Sunshine”
      Roll out a Loving crust
      Flour with Contentment
      Keep it Free from strife
      Fill with Understanding &
      Bake well with your Life.

      Reply
    • 38. Jason  |  October 14, 2011 at 8:33 am

      Greg, there are certainly many cases where there are evidence pointing to a guilty act but yet cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law as that is the burden of proof for all criminal cases. however, if using the burden of proof in civil cases, which is on the balance of probabilitiesthen the evidence will be sufficient to win the case. just like the Banting murder case, if the post mortem shows that the victim died of blows to the head by a blunt object eg. A cricket bat but if the DPP cannot find the murder weapon n tender it in court then the murder charge will not be proven n no conviction secured despite all other circumstantial evidence pointing to the guilt of the accused.
      For the DUMC case, the circumstantial evidence are there and that is why the Sultan mentioned it as such. More importantly, as Christians, why is there a need to be so legalistic and insist on the letter of the law? Isn’t there such a thing that though you may be legally right but yet you may be morally wrong. That is why I say that Christians are very hypocritical in such issues and especially Bishop Paul Tan. I am a Christian myself and am ashamed at the attitude of such so-called Christian leaders and pastors. Can each one of them look me or you in the eye and say truthfully that they have not attempted at anytime in their life to evangelize the Muslims? It need not necessarily be during that particular incident at DUMC. Christians must be honest and if they want to fully obey the Lord’s command to evangelize the whole world and break some of man’s laws then they must be prepared to bear the consequences of their acts. There is no glory without suffering. There is no crown without the cross. Lesser Christians in China and the world over have openly accepted the punishment of their acts in violation of human laws and own up to it. But Malaysian Christians have yet to be able to do this. Instead they pretend and choose to hide behind legalities and the fundamental right of assembly under the Constitution etc, which makes them all guilty of hypocrisy. If you believe that the truth will set you free then live your
      lives by it. Don’t have double standards and behave like cowards. Otherwise, just don’t do it and respect and abide by the human laws and laws of the country no matter what your opinion about it is.

      Reply
      • 39. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 14, 2011 at 10:06 am

        Jason, agreeable with you, they need to go and study about Kant’s moral law then maybe the modern day rule of law detractors understand what you are talking about.

        Reply
      • 40. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 14, 2011 at 1:24 pm

        @ Jason.

        Whether your a Christian or not, is not the issue. The issue is – can we follow the law. This is not about religious piety or about whose religion is better. Don’t you understand what I’m writing – I’m saying keep religion out. Use the law. Provide evidence. Think. Don’t be emotional.

        Read the article by masterwordsmith carefully especially about Hasan Ali’s role in the raid.

        http://masterwordsmith-unplugged.blogspot.com/2011/08/hassan-ali-is-pakatans-ibrahim-ali.html

        You see Jason, there are smokescreens everywhere. All is not what it seems.

        By taking this case to court – you clear the smokescreen and come to the truth.

        If Harussani had been taken to court for claiming that 400,000 Muslims had converted – we will know for sure if he saying the truth. We can then charge those Christians who are breaking Malaysian law and it will be a lesson so that no Christian ever attempts to convert Muslims.

        Conversely, if Harussani is telling lies, we send him to jail and make sure no Muslims (or Malaysians) ever tell lies on issues that can undermine race and religious relations.

        Similarly, the siege by 200 Muslims on the Catholic Church is a blatant abuse of Malaysian laws. What has no one been charged. Or Muslims snatching the body of a loved one, simply because they claim that he is a Muslim. Or separating a mother from her child because she is not a Muslim.

        What kind of society permits this?

        Helen Ang, Chan Lilian, Teresa Kok and the Nanyang journalist (I think) have been charged, investigated, arrested for simply writing or saying even lesser things?

        Why the double standards?

        Similarly, why is the police not investigating Ibrahim Ali’s claim that there is a DAP conspiracy to install a Christian Prime Minister?

        If you can think – you will know that this is a strategy to create fear among Muslims so that they will vote for UMNO. UMNO creates the instability and then solves it. UMNO acts as the guarantor of peace in this country.

        So, you don’t take the case to court – so that there is no finality. The culprit is never brought to justice. UMNO continues to play the religious and race card telling Muslims that they need UMNO to protect them, telling Muslims that they are not intelligent enough to think for themselves and that they will be swamped by evil Jews, decadent westerners, dangerous Christians and greedy Chinese if not UMNO.

        After 50 odd years of BN rule – haven’t you figures this out?

        Classic divide and rule strategy.

        What protects each individual are our institutions. That institutions must have integrity and must be fair – hence secular.

        Reply
      • 41. Greg Lopez  |  October 16, 2011 at 10:36 pm

        A point to consider (and not to debate)

        China is communist state. The Christians (and Muslims) in China operate under very different rules. The law is clear – there is no religion (de jure) in China.

        The Malaysian Constitution states that there is Freedom of Assembly and Freedom of Religion – hence Malaysians can go anywhere they want too – including mixing with Malaysian Christians or Foreign Christians and having dinner with friends in a “Church” . Example, the Agung attended the wedding of Prince William (He was in a Mass actually – imagine that) which is very different from just signing a few songs praising God. Also our Constitution allows Najib to meet the Pope if he wants too and have a drink/meal if he needs too.

        In China this would not be possible. Unless your suggesting that Malaysia is a Communist state where one party has ruled since Independence and is having a “Cultural Revolution” to purge Malaysians from decadent practices that weaken the state?

        Reply
  • 42. husin ahmad  |  October 13, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    qq

    We need more of you as an antidote to the impeccable logic of Dr Lopez’s argument. He can win the debate, but you win my heart.

    Reply
  • 43. Hole in One  |  October 13, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    Hey Helen are u a Christian? Coz u are not a Christian u wont understand the feelings of Christians in this country. So shut the #@!$ up.

    Reply
    • 44. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 14, 2011 at 9:52 am

      Do you know how to feel like a human being? If you know, religion is never an issue, moderation & compromise is at least in Malaysia. If you build your frustration on religion rather than basic human needs, then you make no difference whether BN or PR comes into power. I didn’t know that Christians are allowed to curse, are they? .

      Reply
  • 45. Iqraq  |  October 14, 2011 at 3:14 am

    Dear Mr Lopez,

    I am flattered that you need to resort to sarcasm to respond to my comment. The significance is not lost on me.

    If you read what I wrote before, we believe the church to be guilty based on the evidence they admitted themselves i.e. the extremely dubious and fishy nature of the songs and the quiz. It is not a legally-binding opinion of course, but it is certainly the dominant narrative amongst the Malaysian Muslim population. This is why we do not comprehend the intellectual disconnect of the Christians who are still complaining that they were victimised by JAIS. They are not fooling anyone. If you can provide a logical explanation I will of course listen. However, I will not afford the evangelists benefit of the doubt as I do not believe they have earned it judging from their previous actions.

    I would like to correct your misinformed statement suggesting I agree that ‘we should reverse the influence of Islam in Malaysia’. Speaking for myself (and not Helen), the opposite is true, I firmly believe Islam teaches a superior way of life and personally endeavor to lead that life as best as I can. I will not engage in a debate on hudud with you because your need to use harsh words illustrates to me that you have already made your mind up about it. I will also not respond any further than this and leave you with Sura Al-Furqan, Verse 63. Peace!

    Reply
    • 46. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 14, 2011 at 6:52 am

      If that is the case, why not use the court system.

      Why not ask the Sultan to ask JAIS to press charges.

      Why can’t we use the rule of law to come to decisions.

      Why do we need to sweep everything under the carpet leaving it to fester.

      Please, once again, we do not want mercy, we want justice.

      Reply
      • 47. jason  |  October 14, 2011 at 4:32 pm

        Greg,
        The fact that I am a Christian is very much the crux of the issue here. That is why I am stating this in the open as far too many christians dare not voice this out against their own christian leaders. The christians are baptizing the sins of their leaders with their silence. The leaders are human and they make mistakes and if so, just be a man and admit and not try to wriggle your way out by using all sorts of legal arguments and lies.

        U are avoiding the issue and remain in denial – I have already explained to u very clearly about the legal burdens of proof. The fact remains that the Sultan is right – there is evidence but insufficient to sustain a criminal charge. Hence that’s the statement-these are facts. No need to talk about smokescreens and all sorts of conspiracy theories as all these can never be proven. Why go on all sorts of speculations and yet ignore the very simple facts staring at your faces and u choose to sweep those facts under the carpet. That’s dishonest and exactly violates all their christian beliefs. Fact is – has anyone pointedly ask the question to the pastors and christian leaders on a face to face basis? The NECF Secretary was asked by a reporter point blank on that and he fudged the answer – he said, “well, we share with everybody…”. The answer to a “did you or did you not” do this question could easily be answered with a simple yes or no. But we want to hedge our bets and answer with spin and rhetoric and that’s why and where I fault the christian leaders for being hypocritical.

        The moment that the christian leaders begin to be honest and truthful about what they did- that will be the day that they will get justice. The one who is guilty of sweeping it under the carpet are the christian leaders who try to cloud everything by focusing on other stuff and repeating unsubstantiated conspiracy theories which will never end.

        Be honest and tell the truth – that’s all I ask of my christian friends and leaders and all others interested in this issue.

        Reply
      • 48. Greg Lopez  |  October 16, 2011 at 10:41 pm

        To Jason,

        My argument is that please keep your religion to yourself. If you think that NECF, Catholic Bishops, etc are hypocrites – that’s entirely your view and you are entitled to it.

        I am not interested in your philosophical views on religion or the shortcomings of its members (jeez, don’t you read anything I write)

        The point at hand is that one party (DUMC) – constituting citizens of Malaysia have been wrongly treated by a state agency (JAIS) from the point of law. They seek redress. Where will they get it?

        I take leave now – not running away – but got to finish a thesis.

        Reply
  • 49. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 14, 2011 at 6:47 am

    @ Husin Ahmad

    Therein lies the problems of the Malay community – the inability to use the mind to come to decision and resorting to the heart of affairs of the nation.

    Consider the following:

    Harussani says 400,000 (i forget the exact number) Muslims have converted to Christianity on TV3.

    The Muslim who uses his mind will say – well Harussani, please show proof, or make a police report.
    The Muslim who uses the heart will say “Jahanam Kristian”

    Harrusani says Azhar Mansor is baptising Christians in a Church in Ipoh. The intelligent Muslim will say, well let’s inform the police. The not very intelligent Muslim will lay siege to the Church.

    Now consider this further – it was clear that Harussani lied. There was no such thing. Was any action taken against Harussani? Here is a man – a religious leader who is clearly a liar but Muslims continue to believe in him.

    Why – because many Muslims use very little of the mind and much of the heart.

    Consider this:

    Ibrahim Ali says DAP Christians wants to install a Christian Prime Minister. The intelligent Muslim will say – Ibrahim Ali is stupid. Even PAS cannot install Islamic laws in a Muslim majority country, how can a minority religion that is dispersed into many sub-belief streams and ethnic and regional groupings constitute a threat.

    Or for that matter, how can Christians be a threat when Muslims control all the institutions in Malaysia – from the police, to the military to the judiciary to the public sector, etc and when any changes to the constitution requires 2/3 majority and the ascent of the Monarchy who are in case we forget protectors of Islam.

    Only a Malay who uses his heart and not his mind, will believe this.

    The problem of Muslims in Malaysia are not external to the Muslims. It’s not the Jews, it’s not the decadent West, it’s not Christians, it’s not the non-Muslims. It’s internal to the Muslims.

    It’s the fact that the majority of Muslims use the heart more than the mind. That is why UMNO (& PAS, & PKR) can consistently fool the Muslims.

    I wish you well Husin – that you and more Muslims become enlightened – because unless Malays become more enlightened, all Malaysians suffer.

    Please read the following articles. For me this is the clearest way for us to forge a nation.

    http://malaysiasdilemma.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/the-ultimate-malaysian-debate-malaysia-or-malaysaja/

    https://malaysiasdilemma.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/malaysia-or-malaysaja-part-ii/

    Reply
    • 50. husin ahmad  |  October 14, 2011 at 10:36 am

      Greg,

      I don’t quite agree with you. I think the majority of the Malays just don’t use their mind, period. Especially in the matters of faith, they stop thinking and start rationalizing and reacting. They don’t use their heart either, otherwise there will be less prejudice, and we don’t need Helen to explain the Chinese mind to the Malay readers. Instead they are easily swayed by emotion – the negative kind.

      But facts and logic alone are not enough when governing people or influencing community. They have to be tempered with wisdom (the judgment of Solomon comes to mind.) If facts and logic alone are sufficient, you would have been an atheist already. (Ohh.. I know you can rationalize your belief.)

      Reply
      • 51. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 14, 2011 at 12:03 pm

        @ Husin

        Fully agree with you that the majority of Malaysians don’t use their minds. We’re a poor quality democracy. The joke about democracy is the challenge to manage idiots. They’re failing to do this in the US (with the rise of Tea Party/Republicans), in Australia, – Abbot right wingers, etc – and Malaysia is no different.

        That is why we need strong institutions to set the parameters of engagement.

        I don’t rationalise my faith. Faith by definition defies logic and that is precisely why it should be removed from influencing public policies.

        No public policies should be decided on the basis of religion. No public policy decisions should be made because of religion.

        But you’re entirely right. Humans are prone to emotions rather than logic.

        I really don’t have the answer on why certain groups of people behave in certain ways.

        For example – when the news of the cartoon of Prophet Mohamad (pbuh) reached Malaysian shores, approximately 10,000 Muslims demonstrated in front of the Danish embassy.

        But there has been about 400 extra judicial killings, 1500++ deaths in government custody but no one seems to care?

        Watch this video

        How do you think Muslim’s would react if non – Muslims misrepresented facts about Islam on national television?

        Here is Karam Singh – supposedly insulting Malays

        We really need to keep race and religion out of politics and have clear laws that are applicable equally to all Malaysians – if we want to move forward.

        Reply
      • 52. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 14, 2011 at 12:12 pm

        I meant not only Malays but most Malaysians don’t think – that’s why were a poor quality democracy.

        But the reasons for non – Muslims not thinking are driven by other factors – fear of Islam, mahu cari makan, lack of principles, etc – its not driven by religion.

        The Malay identity has been intertwined with Islam so profusely that it is now problematic to separate the two.

        The challenge for Malaysia is therefore to convince the Muslims that what is best for the nation may not necessarily be best for the Malays & Muslims and what is best for Muslims and Malays may not be necessarily best for the nation.

        Therefore defining the national interest is now Malaysia’s biggest challenge. And really, we need people who can think clearly to determine this.

        Reply
  • 53. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 14, 2011 at 10:43 am

    I find it interesting in this article that at the end of it the battle is between Islam & Christianity with the typical justification on how each of us get enlightened who is superior or who is not. Now my thingy is, how does this relate ot a multicultural society like Malaysia who can sit down and work out the differences without infringing each other in their own practice.

    Sure we know what BN had done with their mandores whether it is Christians, Islam, Buddhist, Hindus or the lain-lain, Well what did the ordinary Muslims, Christians,Buddhist, Hindus or the lain-lain do for the last 54 years other than sit along and play the pied piper when their fellow brethens were sidelined until GE12 with the HINDRAF uprise for the truth and reality on the ground at least for the Malaysian Indians when the rest just sat silent.

    Let’s not fault ourselves with unwarranted justification, let’s not be driven with a religious agenda, lets just work together how humanity can serve each other at least in Malaysia without the typical hypocrisy, let it be Islam,Christians,Buddhist, Hindus or the lain-lain but in fairness for Malaysians irrespective of our origin. Is this that difficult to achieve?

    Reply
  • 54. HuaYong  |  October 15, 2011 at 12:34 am

    Jason,

    I think Greg never disagree your claim pertaining to Christian and Christian leaders, perhaps they are dishonest, perhaps they are worst than that, and perhaps what they did is against Malaysia law (but not in many other countries), if that is the case, why not make use of rule of law to send out a clearer message? I don’t grasp what you meant by “there is evidence but insufficient to sustain a criminal charge”, why not let the court to decide whether there is or there is no evidence?

    Reply
    • 55. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 15, 2011 at 11:36 am

      HuaYong, ‘Let him who is without sin cast the first stone’ or ‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone’? Do you know what it means. Grasp it, and understand why for 54 years everything was kosher until the HINDRAF uprise and now everyone can talk cock and justify everything under the sun. Where was your conscious rule of law then. Pleaselah Malaysians don’t talk cock and understate yourself as the minority needs to fight your battle that had served you welll all these years. How a religion equation is now so important when for all these donkey years we accepted what it is. Such hypocritical Malaysians where else can you find them.

      Reply
      • 56. HuaYong  |  October 16, 2011 at 12:00 am

        MalaysianinNY,

        First of all, can you please stop babbling Hindraf? I am not interested what Hindraf had done, and don’t tell me joke like Hindraf uprise, okay?Second, I don’t know what childish statement like ‘Let him who is without sin cast the first stone’ have to do with my comment. I don’t mind repeat again my question since you have comprehension problem though I am not sure if that is caused by inborn deficiency: I don’t grasp what Jason meant by “there is evidence but insufficient to sustain a criminal charge”, why not let the court to decide whether there is or there is no evidence? My conscious on rule of law is not relevant and has nothing to do with you.

        Don’t make me repeat a third time.

        Reply
    • 57. Jason  |  October 17, 2011 at 1:43 am

      Hua Yong and Greg,

      pls read again what I wrote about the legal burden of proof re criminal and civil cases and understand that there can be evidence but yet insufficient to sustain a criminal charge. I’ve also given a clear example of the cricket bat as weapon and the Banting murder case. U guys are still disputing the Sultan’s statement which cleared JAIS of any breach or wrong. That’s where the Christian dissatisfaction is right now-unable to live it down or swallow the truth as it is n insisting of it’s legal rights. That’s my point about the hypocrisy of it all. Perhaps a more graphic illustration may help u guys understand eg. assuming that your wife found you coming out of your neighbour’s apartment late one night. She knew that your neighbor is a single woman who stays alone. So acting on her suspicion, your wife barged into the neighbour’s apartment, and she searched the woman’s master bedroom where she found your underwear and a number of love letters to the woman all written in your own handwriting. She accused you of adultery but she never saw and no one ever witnessed any sexual act between you and the woman. Do you now wanna dispute and say your wife’s act of barging into another person’s apartment is illegal n a breach of privacy n that she must ignore all the other “evidence” that she found and that you are innocent somehow notwithstanding the suspicious circumstances of your visit to your neighbour’s apartment. What is the issue here? So u want her to get a search warrant first? And u behaving so self righteously and insist that she did u wrong instead of looking at your own actions? Try reversing this illustration for yourself and imagine if it was your wife who came out of a single man’s apartment late at night etc.etc. Try going to court on that basis or even ask the woman to go to court to sue your wife for breach of privacy and illegal entry etc and see what kind of justice will she get. The lesson here is – sometimes in life, there is really no need to get ALL the facts correct because the more important thing is what ACTUALLY took place and what happened whether it is at that particular incident or other times. Really it is Res Ipsa Loquitur- the facts speak for themselves. U know what you did so no need to divert the attention elsewhere with all sorts of legal arguments. Not all cases and issues can or should be adjudicated in a court of law – there is much wisdom in the resolution of this case by the Sultan in the manner that was done.

      Reply
      • 58. Gregore Pio Lopez  |  October 17, 2011 at 11:08 am

        oh dear Jason….

        In the Banting case, the court decided it. That’s what we want. We want the court to decide it. Not the Sultan.

        Malaysian citizens should be subjected to the law, not the decree of the Sultan.

        Anyway Nik Nazmi has argued for the need of enlighten Malay leadership. Do hope PR can deliver on that.

        http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/10/17/hope-in-malaysias-young/

        Reply
      • 59. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 17, 2011 at 12:24 pm

        Jason, sometimes in life you should not try to justify when it is the truth and reality .Lopez like another Malysians abroad will have all his justification as this is not a day to day issue that he faces. Who is Lopez? Another estranged malaysians living in the midst of the artifical Western democracy who continoue to talk cock. The whole beauty is Jason you are there in Malaysia who will do what is best for the malaysioans in Malaysians irrespective of our origin and naturally we don’t need some semua tahu intellectual stupid Western educated like Lopez to dictate how it has to be with a convulated rule of law. Lopez is of no significance but they ride it as ti serves their own agenda. Let’s not get worked up with such self motivated fools. Malaysia, Malaysians are very clear with their own objective and we don’t need this half past six materially induced intellectually fools to lecture us for what we have always been for a Malaysian agenda irrespective of an agenda. Lopez, go get a a life in Australia and wish you the best.

        Reply
  • 60. Jason  |  October 17, 2011 at 11:49 am

    Greg, read carefully what I wrote – it is about principles, analogies and comparative examples and never about using the courts.if courts can provide finality, then we don’t need guys in PR like Anwar etc always disputing the court’s verdict if it goes against him. What have u to say about the illustration re your wife? U can always insist on your right to go to court and see what your wife will say and do? Get real. in any event, the Opposition will not accept a court decision but instead will always appeal to the court of public opinion. Finality is a good thing but justice is better- justice is done when the parties concerned like DUMC and the Bar Council and even the MCCBCHST have issued statements welcoming the Sultan’s statement and accepting it as a wise way to seek closure for this case. By and large, the general public has accepted the Sulatn’s statement and if you conduct a referendum, you will see that. There are no public outbursts or protests against the Sultan. So why are those on the fringes who are not directly involved in the case continue to stir things up and making demands? This is sheer politicking n a desperate attempt to gain political mileage, capital and stir unnecessary anger, dissatisfaction and hatred. DUMC is moving on with it’s church life and mission whereas the politicians from Opposition still wanna milk this case for more political gain. No need to have your hidden political agenda and indulge in the politics of hatred when the way forward is clear – love, understanding and harmony is always the preferred route for this court, not a litigious society. National building is forged through relationships not enforced through the law.

    Reply
  • 61. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 17, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    Hua Yong, You are the best, HINDRAF is a babble in your definition even when factually they were able to motivate the public for something called conscious that had been elapsed for 54 years irrespective of our origin. Maybe i have inborn deficiency like what you state, but how this matters if truth is what we pursue.Did the truth discriminate or only served what is your personal agenda? Your truth like mine serves us well materially but what about the truth for the rest of the community because I know it best which is self explanatory.Frankly cannot expect too much from you as everything is beyond the grasp as say okay why worry about someone else. Isn’t this what we are no matter how we dress ourselves in the King’s cloth. Like you say i am childish, but isn’t being the child is the best part of our life.?Go enhance your childness, because that is naivety and truth not the man/woman made world motivation that only serves you or what you think best for how it serves you personally besides the community. You want to continue to prove your point, Seriously you think you can make a difference, then why waste your time with me and people like me, go ahead and do what HINDRAF had done for what was humane and conscious that you or me could not do for 54 years. Cock talk like is ample without compromising your own status quo so take your stupid battle elsewhere as you did not do it. Did I do it? No i did not do it as well but i have the humility to recognize HINDRAF’s contribution rather than taking cock like you.

    Reply
    • 62. HuaYong  |  October 17, 2011 at 2:32 pm

      MsianinNY, instead of answering my simple question like what Jason did, you talked Hindraf, and spend more than half paragraph to do psychoanalyze, don’t waste your time, nobody is interested on what me and you did, or what Hindraf did.

      Reply
  • 63. HuaYong  |  October 17, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    Jason, I am not too sure if I share similar stance with Greg, you can tell another dozen case to illustrate your point and the interesting part is, I don’t really disagree with you, I am just curious how do you know for sure there is or there is no evidence? Does the wisdom end here? The same case would not happen again in future, and etc etc. Greg brought up a pertinent point which I agree “I would prefer Christians be charged and clear the air once and for all, rather than insinuations. The law says that no proselytisation to Muslims. It may be an unfair law but it is a law nevertheless. All Malaysians should follow it. It will send a very clear message to any Christian thinking of doing this.”

    Reply
    • 64. Jason  |  October 20, 2011 at 9:51 am

      If u have spoken to the relevant parties in the DUMC incident including JAIS then u would know what evidence is there, what can be explained away and what appears to be a strenuous explanation. That’s why I say the facts speak for itself, an honest assessment of the facts, evidence, conduct, actions and statements of the parties during and after the incident will point towards certain prima facie conclusions.

      Reply
  • 65. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 18, 2011 at 10:43 am

    Hua Yong, I actually answered you question in the form of HINDRAF, but it is just that you cannot see the wood for the forest. You want to know the difference between a civil suit and a criminal suit or do you want to know the difference between wisdom and knowledge? You don’t need need to be lawyer to differentiate the onus on a civil and a criminal matter, but for sure you need individual morality when you take a line between wisdom and knowledge, yet this morality does not flow from your law or anyone’s law but a human law amongst each other for each other. Do you understand? or you need me to decipher further. Honesty is the first chapter of wisdom & I believe Jason & Iqraq has portrayed this well. As for you and me, we will fight and battle until doomsday and nothing is achieved except our own agenda like how it has been until the rise of HINDRAF. Don’t precipitate like how most Malaysians do for new found freedom that someone else who had their necks in the chopping block.

    Reply
    • 66. HuaYong  |  October 18, 2011 at 2:19 pm

      MsianinNY

      Okay, we talk Hindraf. Please enlighten me why you think what Hindraf did was an uprise while this case deserved the praise of wisdom? Shall not Hindraf act in a wisdom manner in the past?

      Reply
      • 67. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 19, 2011 at 7:37 am

        It was an uprise because no segment of the society was fending for Malaysian per se but only looking after their own interest including the politicans. The uprise for the truth and reality for the demented policies led the people to look into their concsciousness and resulted what it it is today with a culture of boldness in rallies and challenging the authorities when it is not just & unfair. If you note even in 1999 at the height of the reformasi, the malays were split but we the non malays sat silently not to rock our own status quo as everything was hunky dory at least for the urban ones.The Malays have always been split, they are simple people it is we who are vicious and conniving in our own agenda. Whether how the ruler decided deserves a praise of wisdom is each individual’s decision, yet living in a muticultural and intertwined society as ours do warrant certain tolerance and not to gauge everything in a political sense with a tit for tat attitude. Sure it has been like that in the past, but why should it be now when we are more matured. Here we exchange our thoughts not to antagonize each other but to create a better understand amnogst us rather than subject ourselves to a falsified conviction for how the politics of the day rules as oppose to the honesty in a matter irrespective of our origin either ethnically or religion. That is the wisdom, and it has no past, present or future but whether one acquires it.

        Reply
  • 68. HuaYong  |  October 20, 2011 at 12:40 am

    MsianinNY,

    Beside Hindraf, there is Bersih, there is Badawi loose political climate, you can of course insist, but I am having the impression that you are inconsistent though you try very hard to justify, to each his own. Himpun is the extension of wisdom, don’t you think so? You and Jason are right, let the people be the judge.

    Reply
  • 69. MalaysianinNewYork  |  October 22, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Hua Yong, I am not important ” “Earth provides enough to satisfy every man’s need, but not every man’s greed.” Gandhi. i don’t even have to try as greed is not my agenda like what you may have insinuated, people can only be judge if it is not greedy with expectation but to do what is just. I will never be your enemy if if it the truth and just that you pursue.

    Reply

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