Singapore authorities found at least RM6.4 million (S$2.1 million) of City Harvest church funds were used to finance the Crossover Project “under the guise of donations to its affiliated church in Kuala Lumpur”.
It sounds a lot like money laundering.
The Straits Times mentioned this detail – again – about the alleged complicity of the church’s Malaysian branch in a news report
yesterday headlined ‘City Harvest Church sees 25 per cent drop in members since 2009‘.
The KL affiliate of the City Harvest church is located in Subang Jaya.
BELOW: Hannah Yeoh is on stage during a gala event in the Subang Jaya City Harvest church
Subang Jaya City Harvest church implicated from the outset
From the very start of the Singapore investigations, the City Harvest church in Subang Jaya was implicated in the corruption probe.
This piece of information on the City Harvest church’s criminal breach of trust (CBT) has been released to the public as early as mid-2012. The Straits Times on 26 June 2012 carried an article headlined ‘City Harvest’s Crossover Project lies at heart of CoC inquiry‘ which said:
“Funds from the church were diverted to finance the project under the guise of donations to its affliated church in Kuala Lumpur between December 2007 and May 2010.
“The church – City Harvest Church Kuala Lumpur – then transmitted the monies to support the project in the United States (US).”
CoC refers to the Commisioner of Charities.
BELOW: City Harvest pastors collect a lot of tithe (zakat) from the teeming mass of sheeple … The Devil Wears Prada and loves other branded things
3G: Gold, Self-Glory and Gospel is greedy scam by preachers
I blogged about the potential element of CBT relating to the involvement of City Harvest KL (Subang Jaya) in my 4 July 2012 posting titled ‘Skandal gereja Singapura-KL, murtad, superstar dan gejala cuci otak‘.
This piece of news has been in the public domain more than three years and even reported multiple times in our neighbour’s premier broadsheet. And mind you, the Straits Times is a Singapore government-controlled newspaper.
That the J-Star has not picked up on such a sordid saga of grave public interest only reflects a conspiracy of silence – a pattern that’s been discernible whenever it concerns reports which put evangelical Christianity and DAP evangelistas in a bad light.
Nest of Evangelistas, DAP are dajjal
All six of the City Harvest church elders and pastors have been found guilty in the Singapore court of all the charges against them. The prosecution featured 1,400 documents as exhibits in the course of 141 days of hearing.
The sensational case ran close to 3-and-½ years and was the most costly trial ever to be conducted in Singapore.
Yet all has been quiet on the Malaysian front over this mega scandal. BN must do something about this trend by the MCA-owned EvangeliSTAR newspaper to black out and bury any info that is unfavourable to the Born Again Christian cult.
It’s high time Muslim NGOS concerned about the covert Christianization of vulnerable Malays press our Malaysian authorities to act.
The MACC should immediately liaise with their efficient Singapore counterparts who have successfully nailed the ‘Christian’ culprits. The City Harvest crooks are all looking at long jail sentences.
ABOVE: Church selling Bersih 4.0 T-shirts in its compound on a Sunday (screen grab from StarTV)
Now that the Singapore case has concluded with a guilty verdict, it should be the turn of Malaysian holy water dispensers in Subang Jaya to be put under scrutiny.
The Malaysian government must similarly investigate the RM2 churches too on their subversive activities, for example, in promoting the illegal 4.0 Bersih rally.
The authorities also ought to investigate the links between DAP evangelical politicians and these churches.
Recommended read:
Helen Ang 
Itu pasal sejak dulu I kept asking, Evangelistas Christians can simply pick any tom dick and harry to be their preachers ke?
The way Hannah Yeoh tweets memeranjatkan, for someone who preaches in churches. So much hate in her tweets.Pelik teramat sangat kalau compare with the Reverend Mother and nun teachers in my convent.
Evangelistas Christians do indeed appear to simply pick any Kong, Dick and Hanny Muniandy to be their preachers.
God works in mysterious ways.
Are you questioning those who speak or preach in His Name?
If yes, why just limit your question to evangelical Christians? What about those from other faiths/religions? Are they all coming with clean hands, hearts and consciences?
Note that in the Singapore CHC case, the 6 accused were found guilty of criminal offences. Not of promoting religious or racial agendas or hatred.
The Singapore COC is taking action to bar the 6 individuals from holding official posts in CHC. It is not stopping Kong Hee etc from continuing to be pastors in CHC.
It looks very much as if you have an agenda against evangelical Christians. And against certain members of the Catholic Church. Why is anyone’s guess.
re: “God works in mysterious ways. Are you questioning those who speak or preach in His Name?”
It is the Singapore government that is going to throw them all in jail for a long, long time. It’s even more appropriate if the key to their cell is chucked away too.
re: “If yes, why just limit your question to evangelical Christians?”
The evangelical Christians have been found guilty in a court of law after prosecutors produced 1,400 documents as evidence in 141 days of hearing through a trial that spanned 3-and-1/2 years.
re: “What about those from other faiths/religions? Are they all coming with clean hands, hearts and consciences?”
That’s between them and God. However if they break the law, they’re subject to legal action. Which is what S’pore and Bijing have done with regard to the evangelical churches. In Aceh, the action against evangelical churches is extralegal – they’re burned down by the mob.
re: “Note that in the Singapore CHC case, the 6 accused were found guilty of criminal offences. Not of promoting religious or racial agendas or hatred.”
Note that the City Harvest church lost a quarter of its congregation thanks indirectly to the action of the S’pore authorities and the resultant bad publicity from the expose. The powers-that-be in Malaysia should emulate our efficient neighbour.
re: “The Singapore COC is taking action to bar the 6 individuals from holding official posts in CHC. It is not stopping Kong Hee etc from continuing to be pastors in CHC.”
Kong Hee is facing a possible life sentence should the court impose the maximum penalty. I hope the learned judge does just exactly that (and don’t forget to throw away the key). The incarceration should effectively stop him from continuing to be a pastor in the church, wouldn’t you say?
re: “It looks very much as if you have an agenda against evangelical Christians. And against certain members of the Catholic Church. Why is anyone’s guess.”
It looks very much as if the evangelical Christians pose such a grave threat that one state (province) government alone in China removed thousands of crosses from the rooftops and demolished hundreds of churches.
Very recently Aceh demolished 10 churches after a deadly religious riot Why is anyone’s guess. What is it about them creepies that freak out people both in the highest echelons of government and on the street?
Apparently the government thinks that ISIS and militant Islam is a more existential threat than Christian evangelistas!
As does the US and much of the West. Japan too.
It’s a pity that they haven’t cottoned on to the threats that you are verbalising!
Apparently the Middle East thinks that Christians are the bigger existential threat and hence the situation in Syria which you once kept pestering me to blog about.
Oh, really? Not the Sunni-Shia divide?
And why have you avoided commenting on what I wrote about the US and the West?
Have they pinpointed the evangelical Christians as a threat?
Or, closer to home, in Thailand, Singapore or the Philippines? What are the key concerns of their security agendas?
Where are the references to the Middle East perceiving Christians as “the bigger existential threat”?
Maybe it is all those refugees from Syria, Libya, Afghanistan etc flooding the shores of Europe!
Which you have also avoided commenting about because global politics and big power games aren’t exactly your strong suit.
But alarmist notions about Christian evangelistas are?
re: “pinpointed the evangelical Christians as a threat”
Why should Uncle Sam do that when the Bible Belt is located in the USA and it is Amerika itself that exports missionaries and its former President claimed God told him to invade Iraq?
re: “Where are the references to the Middle East perceiving Christians as ‘the bigger existential threat’? Maybe it is all those refugees from Syria, Libya, Afghanistan etc flooding the shores of Europe!”
There are the refugees, true, but the Christians are also an especial target. Takkan an expert in global politics and big power games (like you) is unaware of this little detail.
There you go again – claiming that the “Christians are also an especial target”.
Who is targetting them? ISIS? The Saudi authorities? The mullahs in Iran? Al-Qaeda? Assorted religious fanatics?
Uncle Sam & the West haven’t “targetted” Christians as an “existential threat”, have they?
Au contraire – the sound & the fury is all about the perceived “Islamicisation” of Western societies with their Judeo-Christian heritage.
And yet the refugees (mainly Muslims) continue to flood these Western societies. Why, when their roots, culture & religion are grounded in the Middle East?
It doesn’t take an expert in global politics to figure this out, does it?
re: “Uncle Sam & the West haven’t ‘targetted’ Christians as an ‘existential threat’, have they?”
When a white guy guns down dozens of innocent bystanders, he’s not called a “Christian terrorist”. When a Muslim boy brings a home-made clock to school, he’s suspected of being a terrorist with a bomb.
re: “It doesn’t take an expert in global politics to figure this out, does it?”
You’re the expert. You go figure.
I am just saying it as it is. Doesn’t need an “expert”, just someone who is up to speed with current affairs.
They dun wan work, they go bluff people money
One thing pastors and politicians have in common?
ya lor, same same wan
claim as christian follower but not sure which bible they read (can ask Madam Twit)but for sure their version of Jesus (pbuh) not the same what Muslims believe.. thanks
In the Name of Allah All-Compassionate and All-Merciful
1. I do call this city to witness:
2. You are a free citizen of this city;
3. And (the loving relationship) of parent and child;
4. Verily, We have created man into lives of toil and struggle.
5. Does he think that none has power over him?
6. He may boast: “Wealth I have squandered in abundance!”
7. Does he think that none evaluates him?
8. Have We (your Lord) not made for him two eyes?
9. And a tongue, and a pair of lips?
10. And shown him the two highways (of conscience)?
11. But he strives not on the path that is steep.
12. And what will explain to you the steep highway?
13. It is to free bonded slaves,
14. And to provide sustenance in times of lack and hardship
15. to the orphan with rights of relationship,
16. and to the destitute down in the dust.
17. Thus will one become the true believer who is patient and self-restrained, and who enjoins deeds of kindness and compassion.
18. Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
19. But as for those who reject Our admonishments, they will become the woeful Companions of the Left Hand.
20. Around and over them will be blazing Hellfire.
(Quran: The City)
Mind you Helen, China and Singapore are not the only countries cracking down Christians. Even India and Indians are wary of these Christians. Read this piece from last year.
Indian villages crack down on Christians
http://townhall.com/news/religion/2014/08/21/indian-villages-crack-down-on-christians-n1881692
Only In Malaysia, with a half asleep government, the Christians, especially the evangelical types have the audacity to bully the rest of the population who represent the majority, people like me and you who don’t buy their snake oil.
Yes, India too. It momentarily slipped my mind but now that you mention it, I recall GR Kumar did provide us a link. In Kerala, if I’m not mistaken.
There’s also been a backlash in Mexico. Must be the influence of the American Bible Belters across the border.
Mexico is different. It’s a Christian country. What used to be a Catholic majority, people are now seduced by the evangelical churches. And on top of that is the battle berween the evangelists and organized crime, since both are mostly about money.
Of course that’s the extract I get from what I’ve read and watched.
I thought that in India, the BJP, Shiv Sena and the RSS are targeting Muslims because of the “cows/beef” issue?
Did that slip your mind? Or was Kumar being a tad selective in his references?
How many Muslims have been killed in India because of religious demagoguery? As compared to, say, Christians?
re: “How many Muslims have been killed in India because of religious demagoguery? As compared to, say, Christians?”
Are you promoting equal opportunity in being a victim of religious demagoguery?
Not really. Just calling it as it is.
And if you don’t want to criticise the BJP/Shiv Sena/RSS in India for targetting Muslims, that’s your call.
It’s just illustrative of your mindset, is all.
Ms H. The abuse of money by these unqualified persons since the Chinese political social lotteries in the 1950s is legend. Here is a chronology of abuse by these crooked schemes.
1950s. The Chinese Political Social Welfare Lotteries.
1960s The mushroom insurance companies caper.
1970s The Gemini Chit Fund caper
1970s The Co-operative Societies caper
1970s The first RM 2 incorporated places of worship with tax free status appeared. Some of these are owned by convicted felons.
1970s-2015 The beginning of share rigging
1980s The insurance company guarantee caper.
2003-2009 The Forex caper.
2010-2012. The Gold Bullion caper
Ms H. It is very clear. The Malaysian Chinese cheat their own Malaysian Chinese ad infinitum !
Ms H. It is even clearer that these folks hi-jack the good name of Christianity in this RM2 incorporated churches caper and abuse it.
Ms H. If such criminal breach of trust was committed in tightly regulated Singapore, what do we expect them to do in Malaysia ? Eligible for sainthood ?
Ms H. The truth. I have a cousin the chief abbess in a Buddhist temple who rides around in a golden Mercedes Benz and a sister-in-law who was an illiterate hair rinser in a Jalan Imbi hair salon, Kuala Lumpur . The latter set-up her own RM2 incorporated church and collected millions of ringgits which she invested in the Marble Arch area of London and made millions of pounds again. No need to study so hard in schools or work either !
Sounds like the world is a showcase oyster for charismatic charlatans – until the curtains fall.
I find some Chinese Malaysians sometimes bizarre.
They claim that are the smartest group amongst Malaysians and they accuse Malays to be gullible for being easily Arabised, but apparently they are also gullible to be quickly “conned” by the Evangelist Christians and fitnah-hate- spreading-DAP politicians.
We really shouldn’t throw stones in the house if we live in a house filled with glasses.
‘Malays to be gullible for being easily Arabised,’
Cina nak jadi Ang Moh bagus, 1st class. Cina thinks Arab low class (like the Malays) sebab tu depa toying with the idea kata Malays nak jadi Arab!
I have a few local friends of Arabic lineage who are thoroughly assimilated into Malay culture. I wonder which Malaysian Chinese you are referring to who are hurling accusations.
Setem. I always asked my friends, ” Have you ever met a stupid Chinaman ? ” They all replied with a resounding ” No ! ” But I continued, ” But there are Chinamen who are so clever as to be stupid !” And I brought a few household names to back up my comment. ( Now we the the Grand Golden Harvesters of Singapore ) My friends always agreed with a resounding roar of laughter !
The church in Malaysia collected a cut from the Bersih T shirt sales. They asked for and may have also received a “donation” from Bersih (although not directly) for the attendance of members. (unconfirmed).
Bersih is widely known to have always made their payments and receipts via third party payment systems. The church became careless (City Harvest and the Assemblies of God- AOG) as their belligerence went unchecked by government.
There is at least one lawyer in KL who has branched out of the AOG to cash in for himself on the trend of “sing a long” Christianity of miracles and music.
Each of these groups use the weakest in our communities like the sick, the poor, the elderly, the disabled and reformed drug addicts as “props” for their shows in order to build up their following and enlarge their cash flows.
This is the Amway of Christ. It needs to be stopped and routed out like the cancer it is in society. J Star and some of its better known staff are known to have contributed to the coffers of these churches.
There is a direct nexus between the Star and other organizations and their proprietor’s other commercial interests and these churches.
For example the AOG used to bus its members into KFC outlets every Sunday and whenever they had special church functions. Other consumer products were “recommended” to members who would not be caught in anything other than what was “recommended” to them by the divine pastors. The list goes on.
The conversion of Lina Joy was publicised with their money to create a stir, a distraction, to antagonize government, the Malays and Muslims and provide maximum coverage to their causes and increase their membership and cashflows.
They have even infiltrated the older more established churches like the Catholics who have been forced to change their approach to worship and fellowship in order to stem the outflow of members from their congregations to these churches. Today they work together in a common cause. Theft and exploitation of their congregations.
re: “J Star and some of its better known staff are known to have contributed to the coffers of these churches.”
MCA is not a Christian party. That its media empire is used to promote the evangelical cause is indirectly a treachery to BN, to which the MCA belongs.
They have “infiltrated” the Catholic Church? Can you prove this assertion?
And are they working “in a common cause”? Pray enlighten us exactly what this “cause” is.
I suppose that Pope Francis’s call to the Catholic Church to embark on a “New Evangelisation” is, in your opinion, an insignificant agenda?
And I suppose too that other religions are 100% not into “theft and exploitation”?
When I was 7yrs old, 5days a week, 6hrs or more each day (coco) I was under the guidance of Nuns, being a student in a convent for 6 long years. Being a class monitor I also frequent the Nuns hostel to help my class teacher carry books/ errands etc to our class. Basically I mingled freely with the catholic nuns (beautiful church next door).
…..They have “infiltrated” the Catholic Church? Can you prove this assertion?…..
Rasanya cara Theresa definitely seirama LKS dan LEG. (Teresa Kok is a Catholic right?) Don’t know probably being a Chinese their Christian ways of life may differ totally from the European nuns that I grew up with. Beza teramat2 sangat macam kaca dan permata!
Kalau camtu aku nak tau jugak wang zakat yang aku bayar selama ni ade tak jadi macam city harvest, masuk poket individu tertentu ataupun diperalat 1MDB, macam Tabung Haji dan LTAT.
Ady,
Setakat ni tak adalah jadi macam kes kat Singapura ni
Ady, bila hang pi bayak zakat, nawaitunya hanya hang dan Allah saja tau. Pada pahaman aku yang umok dah mencapai tujuh puluh ni hang telah menunaikan kewajipan hang, full stop.
Tak payah dok tanya mana duit tu pi dan berwaswas, kalau ada oghang songlap atau salah guna depa tanggunglah.
jadi tak payahlah nak bandingkan apa yang pemegang (tak)amanah Bandaraya Tuai dengan pemegang amanah tempat kau bayak zakat tu.
Allah lebih tau.
I believe these “get rich scams” trend started and heated up from 2000. MLM scandals hit many people.
Even Muslims are not spared. Donation drives to build mosques, madrasahs, orphanages, old folks homes and religious (tahfiz) schools. My friends and I lost lots of money donating to these cons.
Still ongoing.
Can anyone here check how persons like Hannah Yeoh and husband are qualified to preach in churches? I have been asking this so many times.
This Kineas fella is annoying lah… cant understand simple truth ka?
A liar is a liar. Kong Hee is a well practised liar. The prosecution said so after going thru thousands of documents.
Why are you defending a liar?
The evangelistas are out to conquer the mind and soul to fulfill their dream. The aim justifies the means. Dont pretend lah.
This couple Kong and Sun is really reminding me of the once-famous but later disgraced evangelistas like Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.
The Subang jaya city harvest must be investigated,
Why did it channeled the donations to US?
Kineas – you jawaplah..
Wherever did you get the idea that I am defending Kong Hee & the other 5 defendants in the CHC case?
The 6 have been tried in open court. They have been defended by counsel of their choosing. The verdict is in, but whether it will be appealed or not is not known.
CHC in Singapore hasn’t closed shop. It still has a congregation of about 13,000-17,000.
There are other “megachurches” in Singapore. All doing quite well, apparently.
Pew Research estimated that Singapore’s population is 33% Buddhist, 18% Christian & 14% Muslim.
The numbers of Christians in Singapore aren’t decreasing.
So what exactly is your point? That Singapore being a secular state means that it doesn’t have an “official” religion and that all religions are treated equally?
Ms H. What do the born again evangelistas hope to gain by going against convention norms and practices in this multi-racial country ? As Bilahari Kausikan the suave diplomat of Singapore has rightly pointed out in a non-delusional manner in an essay with a delusional title, ” Singapore is not an island.” about the delusional Malaysian Chinese i.e. the born again folks, the Constitution, the majority, the conventions and traditional practices are against them. Maybe it is alright for the collection of money for temporal causes handled by unqualified pastors or convicted/non-convected felons. But at the end of the day, the innocent bystanders like us may have to suffer for the insouciance of these culprits whose place should be rightly in Sungei Buloh !
“under the guise of donations to its affiliated church in Kuala Lumpur”?
Hello, in Malaysia ‘donation’ is not a crime. The precedent has been set by Najib’s 2.6 bil donation. Moreover, the amount of 6.4 mil is too small compare to 2.6 bil.
No way they are going to be investigated. It will be labeled as persecution and intolerance.
Already the J-Star editorials blathered about “hate-spewing, divisive, race-obsessed ignoramuses”.
Umno has been called every name there is, so what’s a few more. Alah bisa tegal biasa.
In world, got 2 type of thief. 1 use hands the other use mouth. The one use mouth more dangerous. They look nice, wear nice, smell nice, talk nice, everything nice wan.
Then you wake up and your things suddenly less. Then you know.
re: “wear nice”
Like the Devil. And we know which brand she wears.
Ms H. Over 30 years ago, a UMNO Tan Sri told me that RM 20 millions can cause a lot of political problems to the Government.
The affiliated churches in Malaysia, KL and the Kelang Valley in particular were recipients of funds that were passed through these churches in an effort to destabilize government in Malaysia.
Not all of the money the Harvest church received were directly out of the pockets of their followers their faithful (Sheeple as you so aptly refer to them as). A good deal of it came from so called NGO’s from abroad with links to the George Soros foundation, the Neo Cons and their various agencies parading as do gooder organizations fighting for civil liberties and a civil society in Malaysia, Thailand and other south east Asian nations. Its called “money Laundering”.
We ran a story on Gopal Raj Kumar the blog about the Gold Scams after a “gold seller” agent approached us for advise fearing he would be sued or charged with fraud. His disclosures and the information he provided lawyers we know was astounding and mind numbing to say the least.
It was a well planned and politically motivated con and was designed to compromise the Tun Dr. Mahathir as well as the current PM and the **** with photo opportunities with the 3 that were published in the gold scam brochures.
The extent of that gold bar investment fraud for which there is yet to be any redress for those who suffered and lost large amounts of money remains so large there are few parallels to draw from recent history (apart from the Malaysian Stock Market insider trading scams run by brokers, company directors and high net worth investors).
Back to God’s messengers, the KL churches were and remain a conduit of the groups like civil societies who seek to destabilise government through their rumour mongering and general Bersih misconduct.
Bersih is a recipient of large amounts of illegal money and money unlawfully obtained from the Selangor State executive without proper parliamentary procedure and authority. It is no wonder Ambiga (Amah) has been relatively silent on the 1MDB allegations thus far. She has been deafening silent on that matter by comparison to what others have had to say about it.
At least two known journalists have been recipients of money channeled through these churches too. It does not stop there.
The cookie crumbles slowly in this one. More to come. Keep the pot boiling Helen. Keep the torch burning. Still some way to go.
grkumar, Sir, This RM2 incorporated places of worship aka ‘born again Christians’ are the longest caper in town since the mid-1970s with the founding of one which really went all-out to garner the money from its flock. The fellow became so rich that he did not know what to do with his money ! The rest followed as always !
A lot of claims…..
Why hasn’t anyone among the aforementioned been charged for “money laundering” and for associating with “covert external parties”?
Surely you are not implying that the authorities are sleeping on the job, are you?
Or that the hue and cry about ISIS and the radicalisation of Malaysians through the Internet and social media is an inconsequential matter? As Helen has airily claimed in her single-minded (shall we say “obsessed”) crusade against Christian evangelistas.
re: “ISIS and the radicalisation of Malaysians through the Internet and social media is an inconsequential matter”
Don’t put words in my mouth. Just because I complain about Pepsi doesn’t mean that I endorse Coke. You’re creating a false dichotomy.
Well, to call it like it is, where have you explicitly commented on ISIS, it’s attempts to radicalise Malaysians, it’s call to Malaysians (and others) to wage “jihad” in Syria and Iraq and it’s ongoing campaign to set up an Islamic “Caliphate” etc etc?
And where have you commented on governments in the region putting in place measures against ISIS “manipulation” of their citizens (including disaffected and gullible youth)?
Where is the “false dichotomy”?
Unless you are bemoaning the fact that the authorities in the region haven’t pinpointed evangelical Christians as an existential threat.
Maybe the US and the West has done a good job in “brainwashing”?
Why should I be compelled to blog about ISIS? And just because I don’t do write-ups about ISIS, you twist this lack to claim that I don’t object to ISIS.
I don’t blog about pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic Church either.
My blog, my like, remember?
Another example of pleading the Fifth!
And you do go after “soft targets” apparently. Which doesn’t seem to include ISIS, Wahhabism, radicalisation and the Shi’a-Sunni divide.
A conservative “risk off” attitude? Or a fear of being backed into the proverbial corner or against the proverbial wall?
I repeat – have the authorities proclaimed to all and sundry that evangelical Christians are a threat to peace, harmony and national security? Anywhere in Asean or in the region?
China? It’s more worried that the US is calling it’s bluff over the “nine-dash line” in the South China Sea……
re: “And you do go after ‘soft targets’ apparently.”
Why do you say the evangelistas are a soft target? Look at the poor man Roland Poon who first spilled the beans on the City Harvest church and what they did to him. They’re vicious.
And look at the fate of those who called out the evangelistas. Hasan Ali got sacked from PAS. Ustaz Nasha lost his party deputy presidency.
They stalk me 24/7 in cyberspace and run vile smear campaigns against me. Doesn’t sound like the behaviour of soft targets to me.
re: “I repeat – have the authorities proclaimed to all and sundry that evangelical Christians are a threat to peace, harmony and national security? Anywhere in Asean or in the region?”
So why did China demolish hundreds of churches in the last couple of years alone?
Demolished churches in China? Yes? Took down crosses from these churches? Yes.
Banned or outlawed Christianity? No, no way!
And what’s China doing to Buddhist Tibetans and Muslim Uighurs?
Has that conveniently slipped your mind?
Btw, if you claim that you are being stalked 24/7, then maybe you should take heed of Newton’s Law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Like in the case of China and the US.
Hahaha…..
re: “Banned or outlawed Christianity? No, no way!”
You’re building your strawmen again.
re: “And what’s China doing to Buddhist Tibetans and Muslim Uighurs?”
China did not remove crescents from minarets/swastikas from windows or demolish mosques/monasteries.
re: “Btw, if you claim that you are being stalked 24/7, then maybe you should take heed of Newton’s Law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.”
Hahaha, the Prada-wearing She Devil has many familiars.
re: “Like in the case of China and the US.”
Yes, I’m aware that the evangelical cult followers are violent and deranged. The next time I step into a McDonald’s, I shall beware any Chinese man suddenly snatching a mop stick.
Why hasn’t anyone been charged. No one is sleeping on the job. It takes time like it has in Singapore the ultra efficient state. The Church has been in existence there for decades in one form or the other.
As for whether or not they are charged in Malaysia for whatever the offence (and covert external parties whatever that means) is up to the authorities in Malaysia on a proper complaint with all the evidence at their disposal.
Whats interesting in your very “Christian” reply is that you do not deny these allegations, assuming you have the knowledge, power and authority to make a categoric denial for the church. Instead you verbal the blog’s author (Helen Ang’s) and rant and rave as if you speak for the church (again assuming you represent the church) without denying the claims made against it in my posting here.
Be patient: All good things come to those who wait.
grkumar. Sir, Your comments and observations are correct and wise. One day justice will come and the party will have to stop. Only the true believers of Christianity will stand up and move on. Why should a small minority of the population collects tons of tax free money at the expense of the majority who pay taxes from their toil and hard-work ? And no chance to buy Prada handbags ? Here is another example of the abuse of the generosity of the Government. One self-proclaimed Rm 2 incorporated church owner who is a Tan Sri showed me his assets and said, ‘ This Mall which is better, I give to my wife. The other one which is bad, I give to my listed company.’ How money corrupts !
Just to be clear – which “Church” are you talking about? Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Methodist, Russian Orthodox, Syrian Christian, Evangelical, Armenian etc?
And the “allegations” that you are going on about – they haven’t exactly been covert, have they? Aren’t the Malaysian authorities aware of these “covert” operations?
And why is all the government focus thus far been on ISIS, radicalisation of Malaysians, Malaysians going off to fight for ISIS etc? In fact, isn’t the government setting up a centre in the country to monitor these activities on a pan-Asean basis?
I don’t have to “verbal”(sic) Helen – she does a pretty good job tying herself in knots and pleading the Fifth whenever she is put on the spot or her back is against the wall.
The same goes for you, I think.
So, let patience reign. And Wisdom too (as mentioned in the Bible).
someone should file a police report already so that the police can start investigate
Evangelism = Praise the lord and give me your money!
Mark my words……the Singapore government (thorough its judiciary) will not impose the maximum sentence on these 6 rogues. If it does then (apart from me being wrong) Singapore will go on to prosper with the ruling party for a few more decades in keeping with their magic totalitarian formula.
The government is believed to have undertaken an impact assessment on the various sentencing options on the 6, assessing possible sentencing outcomes and impacts.
Knowing that the “Lee Kuan Yew Magic” (the sympathy factor with their constituents following Lee’s death) will fast evaporate, their next general elections will present an opportunity for this monster (the Harvest Church) they helped create to damage the ruling party and its re election chances beyond redemption.
They (the government of Singapore) will find ‘mitigating circumstances’ to aid the court with handing down lighter sentences for some of the 6 but not the ring leader.
The woman (the Botox Queen ‘Singer’) will get a pass.The followers will then say “the lord intervened” and the church will grow in leaps and bounds claiming a miracle and we will all be in trouble.
The government of Singapore has to think and think very hard and take some very hard decisions if it is to survive a Christian tsunami at the next GE.
The churches brainwashed their members to part with their hard earned money. And they fell for it
People part with their money at their own discretion. It may be churches, temple, women, gambling, gadgets or vacations. Who’s to judge what others chose to do with their ‘hard earned’ cash?
Not you, the least.
The CHC case is a CBT trial against 6 individuals who stole from the church. The church itself is not on trial.
The CHC case
HH so that justifies what these monkeys did in the name of the Lord? They are the church and so too are the fools who paid till it hurt.
What did Jeses Christ say about the church ? “Wherever you gather in my name…….” the Church if you wish to call it that is on trial.
A bunch of seedy crooks for a bunch of fools
gkumar
My comment is a specific reply to a certain commentator.
Go read the original comment made by commentator ‘Reason Speaks’.
The 6 individuals in the CBT case were not mentioned, instead, allegations were made by the commentator:-
1. Churches brain washed their followers to give.
2. Followers who give are essentially under some sort of ill-intent coercion by the church.
Neither allegations btw are founded in the current context.
The church is not on trial because they purportedly ‘brain washed’ their faithfuls. An important distinction to make.
This would certainly cut short church detractors who think they can hitch a joy ride in their pursuit of church slamming by riding on the CBT trial bandwagon.
Anything else?
re: “The church is not on trial because they purportedly ‘brain washed’ their faithfuls. An important distinction to make.” / “church detractors who think they can hitch a joy ride in their pursuit of church slamming by riding on the CBT trial bandwagon”
If the congregation were not brainwashed, would otherwise rational parishioners buy the yarn being spun by City Harvest co-founders Pastor Kong Hee and Pastor Sun Ho?
Your splitting hairs won’t detract from the crux of the issue.
The Singapore authorities can’t punish the churchgoers for allowing themselves to be indoctrinated as it’s not illegal or a crime to be an unthinking zombie but the government can and will impose penalties (the court sentence for CBT) when the effect of the indoctrination is outside the law.
Likewise our Malaysian authorities can’t punish Chinese voters for allowing themselves to buy into dangerous delusions but nonetheless the side effects of the Chinese delusional behaviour is real and tangible.
Quote: If the congregation were not brainwashed, would otherwise rational parishioners buy the yarn being spun by City Harvest co-founders Pastor Kong Hee and Pastor Sun Ho?
Rationality as interpreted by whom? You?
Would someone donating to WWF be condemned as ‘irrational’ to place animal welfare above fellow beings? Some holy than thou humanity champion would opined giving to mankind trump contributions to arts, animals and space explorations.
Why cry foul when dogs/cats are slaughtered and not chickens and cows?
The argument goes on and on.
Fact is, individual values are based on emotions. To each their own, as long as they don’t cross the threshold of liberty and end up denying others theirs.
Who sets the threshold?
The law.
Whatever disparagement or biases you are trying to inject into this discussion, it does not change the reality the church is not on trial.
So don’t talk about ‘splitting hairs’.
One more for the road, the church is not on trial.
Can’t bring yourself to say it eh?
Whatever.
The City Harvest brand was on trial.
If the ‘damage’ were limited to only the six persons (church elders and pastors) found guilty by the court, then how come the congregation lost a quarter of its parishioners?
Sebab nama dah busuk dah.
You can rant as much as you like but it won’t change reality, just like the DAP can shout from the rooftops that they’re a “multiracial, Malaysian First” party but it doesn’t mean that the general public who are not DAP supporters will necessarily believe them.
So now it’s the ‘brand’ not the church that is on trial?
Fine, I’ve no problem with the ‘brand’ getting dragged through the mud for the actions of the convicted 6.
If the ‘brand’ lost a sizeable congregation, it is to other churches, namely the New Creation Church. A ‘rational’ conclusion can be made followers have no problem making distiction between the church and the ‘brand. ‘
As for rants, who is ranting about the woes of CHC?
Not me.
The credibility issue faced by s’pore CHC, is the least of my concern. Am not a member.
Quote: DAP can shout from the rooftops that they’re a “multiracial, Malaysian First” party but it doesn’t mean that the general public who are not DAP supporters will necessarily believe them.
Could’ve said the same regarding Mr PM and his 2.6bil.
To part with that kind of money, the Middleast donor must be brain washed too eh?
re: “So now it’s the ‘brand’ not the church that is on trial?”
Obviously you’re baiting, HH. If I were to take your bait and concur that the ‘church’ is on trial, you could then twist it to say that I’m asserting the institution of the ‘church’ (in general) is on trial.
This potential putar-belit would only be in line with your other earlier accusation against “church detractors who think they can hitch a joy ride in their pursuit of church slamming”.
When you say “church detractors”, are you referring to the critics of only City Harvest or those who criticize more than merely the City Harvest church in Singapore alone?
And when you say “pursuit of church slamming”, do you mean just slamming the City Harvest church or slamming churches other than City Harvest as well?
It’s quite clear that you’re not confining your attack to detractors of City Harvest but extending it to critics of ‘churches’ in the plural.
So you see, I would simply be falling into your trap to agree that it is the church which was on trial. The “BRAND” of City Harvest is indeed a more appropriate term to describe this mega “church” that looks more like a casino, markets its Gospel of Prosperity like a direct-selling product and hawking CDs of the pastor Sun Ho’s twerking song China Wine.
re: “Fine, I’ve no problem with the ‘brand’ getting dragged through the mud for the actions of the convicted 6.”
Oh fine then. So what was the going-ape-shit all about? Confused much?
re: “If the ‘brand’ lost a sizeable congregation, it is to other churches, namely the New Creation Church. A ‘rational’ conclusion can be made followers have no problem making distiction between the church and the ‘brand’.”
Fine again. So you agree with me it is the brand, specifically, of the City Harvest franchise that suffered a loss of reputation. Note that I did not once mention New Creation Church in my write-ups on the verdict.
Therefore this series in my blog on the S’pore court case was about City Harvest per se and not about other churches. This being so, what’s your problem with my using the word CHC “brand”?
re: “As for rants, who is ranting about the woes of CHC? Not me.”
In denial and true to form. In your one comment alone @ 2015/11/02 at 9:07 pm, you repeat yourself:
Repeating yourself smacks of meleter.
re: “The credibility issue faced by s’pore CHC, is the least of my concern. Am not a member.”
Denying again? Then why your outraged comments coming one after another? It’s not just me alone who’s cognizant but other readers too have responded to your brazen denial.
re: “Could’ve said the same regarding Mr PM and his 2.6bil.”
Go ahead. Have I ever blocked any commenter for saying this? No, right?
re: “To part with that kind of money, the Middleast donor must be brain washed too eh?”
So you’re admitting that the City Harvest congregation had been brainwashed to part with hundreds of million ringgit (currency converted) in tithes, donations, purchases and other forms of contribution?
Quote: Obviously you’re baiting, HH. If I were to take your bait and concur that the ‘church’ is on trial, you could then twist it to say that I’m asserting the institution of the ‘church’ (in general) is on trial.
There’s no bait because that is precisely what I am talking about.
The distinction between the institution of the church and CHC- the brand. Loud and clear.
While terms like evangelists, evangelistas, Christians, DAP Christians, HY, RM2 churches etc are used interchangeably to suit your rant of the day, a little more clarity is apt.
Unless of course you are advocating there is no distinction at all –
heck, let’s use the same brush to paint ‘em all for convenient sake .. kinda thing.
Blurry filters are only good for hiding flaws on Instagram pics.
Let’s be upfront about it.
If the church(in general) is on trial, it will be on the charge that the church is unable to control the sects (deviant or otherwise) within it’s belief or willful abetment with the said sects due to the enormous amount of money they are generating. It is the church fault for not specifying to the public on which brand is offcially supported by the church and which one is deviating or the ones which opens just to make money off the back of the sheeples. Why is the church silent of this distinctions? Damn irresponsible i might say of the church!
Religion that comes with a branding strategy, sorry, multiple branding strategies is very suspicious, ain’t it?
*brush brush*
AE
Quote: If the church(in general) is on trial, it will be on the charge that the church is unable to control the sects…
But then the church is not (on trial), is it?
That is why it is imperative to make the distinction between church and Individuals. I concur (with HA) the CHC brand is tarnished, not because of legal implications, but through guilt by association.
Quote: It is the church fault for not specifying to the public on which brand is offcially supported by the church and which one is deviating…..
The current dilemma is not the issue of counterfeit churches but individuals with less than honorable intentions finding their way into legit organizations.
There is no reason for you to steer yourself into a fallacious Sippenhaft deviation kinda argument.
Churches are full of hypocrites. Especially those at the top.
http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html
You guys need to read this.
When I typed ‘church scandal Malaysia’ into Google Search I got some interesting results.
The Calvary Convention Centre (CCC) also has a problem with mismanagement of funds;
http://www.thestar.com.my/story/?file=%2f2009%2f11%2f18%2fcentral%2f5118315&sec=central
There is also an ongoing blog about the crisis in All Saints Cathedral & the Anglican Diocese of Sabah;
http://thetrutheng.com/about/
There could be more that haven’t been exposed.
All these must be persecuted ASAP using the rule of law. Among which are consumers acts and many others that ROS can use to slap their wrists. Watch out for all these idiot cults.
They are part and parcel of the mob that supports the Plan for the New American Century. The New World Order. Not very different to Mahathir’s idea o democracy, God and freedom.