Najib Razak just doesn’t have the killer instinct. I realised this looking at the way he handled the Bersih 2.0 agitation. What initially appeared to be a crackdown stopped short of it.
(For the record, I participated in the Bersih 2.0 rally, having decided to do so after the PSM people were detained under the Emergency Ordinance. Parti Sosialis Malaysia is arguably the most decent political party in Malaysia. Hence my Bersih participation was essentially in solidarity with the EO6 given that at the material time I already harboured grave reservations about Pakatan’s dubious motives.)
Truth matters
(To find out what the PSM does for for the oppressed, please read in their website ‘Lying under oath – justice blancoed‘ [11 Aug 2013]. It touches on the DAP Ipoh Timor MP Thomas Su and his client’s day in court. Pembohongan dan fitnah sebenarnya sudah sebati dengan jiwa DAP 3.0.)
Regular readers know that I don’t preach religion. In fact, in all my pages from when I started blogging here at end-July 2011, I’ve never resorted to a religious lecture. Today however I’m making an exception since this is a special post.
Very briefly, in the teachings of Buddhism, TRUTH is a premium.
Because of their forked tongue nature, I do not see the evangelista politicians as representing the interests of the Chinese community who are Buddhists. The Hannah Bananas do not even admit themselves to be Chinese.
Furthermore, Christianity is not a religious attribute nor philosophical tradition of the ‘Motherland’.
In short, I find the slick and slippery evangelistas utterly abhorrent.
Clue1ess: Najib losing the plot
The man can be considered Umno’s “wartime” president. The opposition has all but declared ‘civil war’ in its bid to occupy Putrajaya.
Yet rather than crafting an effective strategy to ensure Umno’s survival, Najib Razak would rather follow the “bongo-bongo” drumbeat of his multitude of consultants. In fact, so ineffectual is Najib that he allows arrogant brats to pijak kepala dia. Heck, he can’t even protect the reputation of his own wife.
Yet he is the general tasked to halt the DAP juggernaut.
A must-read is an op-ed yesterday by Sin Chew editor Lim Sue Goan for the Chinese insight into our current political situation.
“If the government’s subsidy rationalization program and GST implementation eventually brings about inflation and economic recession, then Pakatan will have good chances of taking the federal administration come the next GE.
“PAS remaining in Pakatan is never a good thing for Umno, although it is absolutely a good thing for democratic politics. Other than checking the advances of a powerful Umno, it will also ensure that Umno’s racist policies will not go too far.”
It appears the Chinese are convinced that killing Umno will effectively put an end to racism in Malaysia.
Recommended read:
‘What if DAP had gained power in the May 1969 election?‘
Buku bertemu ruas
You should also read ‘Cuti jumaat dan naik cukai untuk balas dendam pada Cina‘ by the former Utusan group editor — see Zainuddin Maidin’s blog.
Zamkata the hiking of quit rent by DBKL and the switch to a Friday weekend holiday by Johor “dianggap oleh kebanyakan orang Cina sebagai bermotif politik, hendak balas dendam kerana tidak memberikan undi kepada BN”.
Tan Sri Zam adds: “Saya mendapat khabar dari luar negara, ada Cina Malaysia yang menyebarkan cerita langkah kerajaan Johor itu hendak menunjukkan kuasa Raja, kuasa Melayu dan martabat Islam.”
Zam is mentioning a development which resonates with the Malays and explains the daily rising anti-Chinese sentiments — “Apa peduli kata orang kalau buat apa pun tak kena“, “Tak usahlah nak bertolak ansur. Cara kita selama ini tidak berkesan …”
Melayu dah mula tunjuk taring.
It is fey the way that the Chinese are EBU: Everything Blame Umno. The centre will not hold if this goes on but they (the fault finders) show no sign that they will desist.
My opinion is that at this chronic stage, it is impossible for the Chinese to see reason. The Great Wall that blinkers their outlook is impenetrable.
Biar si Luncai terjun dengan labu-labunya
‘Massive salary hikes for Selangor MB, assemblymen‘ is the news of the day. We were earlier informed that the 2014 Selangor budget is the biggest ever in the state’s history. Rivers of ringgit are flowing because Selangor is Malaysia’s richest state.
The DAP carpetbagger parachute politicians are laughing all the way to the bank. Earlier they were pressuring the stingy Menteri Besar to release Selangor’s reserves which amounted to billions. (Also see, ‘Geran Selangorku RM300j: Siapa cepat dia dapat‘)
Madam Speaker will receive RM22,500 a month when the pay rise takes effect, in addition to her Adun income of RM11,250 (a sum which does not take into account the various allowances and other perks).
Ini terang-terang imbuhan dan ganjaran di depan mata. One can understand why the evangelista politicians are so earnest in selling their saliva and driving their followers into a frenzy of hate. Hate is the fuel of DAP 3.0 politics. No hate, no income.
Anyone who still fails to comprehend the con job should Google “City Harvest Church” and how the pastors collect, in tithe, 10 percent monthly what is earned by their flock.
Angan-angannya Mat Jenin
Delusional Dapsters are still smoking the opiate of “Equality’, ‘Fraternity’ blah blah blah. Expect them to still go berserk at anyone who tries to burst their bubble.
The evangelistas too will continue spewing their malicious venom like a lava flow.
Jerusubang is where the inhabitants see Virgin Mary in a smudged window. There are dozens of cities and hundreds of towns in Malaysia but it has to be Subang Jaya where miracles happen.
Jerusubang too is where the inhabitants actually believe that phantom voters (a busload of Bangladeshis) had descended on polling day. It makes absolutely no sense to send 44 Bangladeshis to Subang Jaya when the incumbent had won by a majority of 23,459 in the last election and subsequently 28,069 votes in GE13.
Please ponder logically: Shouldn’t the purported ‘phantoms’ have been put to better use to rescue imperilled Umno Ministers rather than wasted in a DAP fortress? Again, this gullibility is awash in Subang Jaya — where else. It must be something in the water they drink.
I’d like to clarify that long before I opened this blog, the Beliawanis MCA had already identified @hannahyeoh as a “DAP SuperCyber Bully”, the MIC bloggers revealed her deceitful character, and the Umno-linked online media were the ones who exposed her tweeting when the Selangor state assembly was in session.
Nonetheless, she is Teflon-coated – cukup kebal dan maksum – where the Dapsters, Scissorati and Jerusubang denizens are concerned.
It is pointless for me to hit my head against a taksub wall. I’m a private citizen. It is Umno’s will to power at stake. I have nothing to gain and nothing to lose from the rise and rise of the DAP. After all, I run this blog voluntarily pro bono.
ABOVE: The Twit Meter reading is 84,213 today. The Twit Mistress had a following of 84,140 yesterday. She has collected 73 more twits since the last we checked. (Selangor Umno’s problem, not mine)
And now for the little announcements
For the record: I DO NOT hold any Twitter account and do not have any plans to venture into Twitterjaya.
Neither do I publish my writings in Facebook nor publicly interact in any form of social media.
Beginning tomorrow I’m withdrawing from political blogging indefinitely. I shall continue updating this space but it will be funny pictures with one-liner captions. I might put up the occasional 50 words on favourite books, movies or the progress of my housework.
I hope that you all will be able to adapt to the reformat, and the regulars pull your weight in keeping this board going.
For those silent readers (the oppo hit squads that monitor my blog) delighted and gloating over this piece of news, I have a sober reminder: “Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad.”
Personally, I consider that the lunatics have taken over the asylum and rational folks unable to stem this great tide of odikal evangelism. Even the former EC chairman has joined Perkasa. Ambil lah iktibar. Believe you me, the Muslim fundamentalists will fight fire with fire.
Helen Ang 
‘Beginning tomorrow I’m withdrawing from political blogging indefinitely. I shall continue updating this space but it will be funny pictures with one-liner captions. I might put up the occasional 50 words on favourite books, movies or the progress of my housework.’
Helen, can ask why aah?
Anyway, Selamat Maju Jaya!!!
Dan Terima Kasih Daun Keladi…
I miss lunch. Sometimes to get a posting out, I have to delay my meal to 4pm.
I miss dinner. Sometimes just to upload and be done with it, I postpone my meal to up to midnight. I still haven’t eaten yet :(
Food is sitting in the freezer. Potatoes and onions grow shoots because they’re not cooked. My eating habit is unhealthy. Due to pressed for time (being glued in front of the computer monitor), I munch on snack food or eat straight from the can (I know, I know … this is just so sad.) My main diet is Mee in Cup and Instant Porridge-pour-hot-water.
Bedtime is late because I clear readers’ comment before I hit the pillow.
I get nothing for being a watchdog over slimy politicians. It is not my job to be a watchdog over slimy politicians. On the other hand, the slimy politicians derive a state income of over 30k a month for being slimy politicians.
So for what I do this? I get character assassinated by fanatics and the nastiest vilification from the lunatics. And let me share with everyone that they are plain VICIOUS.
The intensity of it all is wearing me out.
I look at the news and it’s terrible, e.g. anything on MCA complaining about hudud and true to form, the venom flows like boiling lava from the abusive Dapsters. The hate comments are inevitable.
At this point, I feel that my political blogging has reached a dead end. The magnitude of meltdown is overwhelming. How to stick a finger to stanch a bursting dam? What for? Let the 29 newly appointed NUCC consultants go figure.
I know that some kind of equilibrium will be eventually achieved. After all, if I’m not mistaken, the last time a Unity Council was established was post-May 13. Hence even the oligarchs of Putrajaya are acknowledging that racial (overlapping religious) tensions are bad.
Getting to the condition of stasis will not be a pretty sight. Heh.
Helen, take a break but do not stop. Will miss your writing. You are the best blogger cause you do it with facts and figures.
Take care and God Bless.
Thank you.
Alah Helen…janganlah macam tu… tak best lah… malam2 tak ada blog nak baca. Saya jarang komen tapi everyday singgah baca blog you. Kat dia orang tu, just say go to hell with them…. dalam bahasa… pergi jahanam dengan dia orang… take care Sis…
:)
yes kak helen dont stop. dont let evil axis DAPster and gengSTAR triumph, cause as the saying goes “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men/women should do nothing”.
There is already backlash against the Dapsters.
As a Chinese, it makes me uneasy to see the rising tide of strong anti-Chinese sentiments that the Dapsters have provoked.
The evangelistas are similarly bringing on a Christian-Muslim confrontation.
Bad behaviour of the Dapsters and evangelistas are causing all the Chinese and Christians in general to be blamed.
betul kata anak jati johor….
mungkin helen boleh tukar cara blogging supaya makan minumnya tak terganggu…
saya pun jarang dapat komen tapi tak pernah miss baca.
harap helen tak berhenti blogging pasal politikus di malaysia supaya orang ramai macam saya dapat maklumat yang berfakta….
apapun, sekiranya helen berhasrat juga untuk berhenti, saya fikir kita takde pilihan selain respect keputusan anda….
Will need to prioritize day job, like other ordinary makan gaji Malaysians.
Yes, will tukar cara blogging. I’ll just upload picture. Easy, copy + paste. Commenters can choose to carry on with the content or not.
Please read https://helenang.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/najibs-inability-to-go-for-the-jugular-will-be-fatal-to-umno/#comment-60706
to understand how they are underhandedly attacking me.
CORRECTION
re: “On the other hand, the slimy politicians derive a state income of over 30k a month for being slimy politicians.”
It looks like the slimiest politician in Selangor will be taking home a basic salary of something like 40k monthly, and that’s not counting the allowances, perks and other claims.
Hi Helen,
Your blog is wonderful and exception. But this is my sincere comment.
1. Sometimes I find that your blog post is very lengthy. Jumping from one issue to another within the same post.
2. There are quite some repetition is many of your posts.
So if you can focus on one issue and keep it short and focus, it might save a lot of your blogging time.
I admit it’s true about the repetition & the clumping of too many issues in one post.
Also agree about the short & focused bit, it’d be better.
As I’ve mentioned, I’m now just going to copypaste a photo and attach a one-liner caption.
Hey Islam1st
Any plans on how to kill time now that Helen will not be blogging as often given you are her blog’s unofficial ‘comment king of one liners.’
Cheers
tu la, got cadangan or not HH? Should we discuss scriptures instead?
Nolah. I am not a scripture person. Saja tanya.
Helen, this is my first time commenting and maybe it would be the last. I’ve followed your blog religiously since I discovered your blog by chance early last year. Without saying it too much, I really like your writing. But I understand your feeling about being worn out. I respect your decision to quit but I want to say this. Take a break but don’t stop speaking up your mind.
Take care.
Anonymous.
You know, to rub salt into the wound, the Scissorati who get an “honorable mention” in my blog are on track to a fast promotion (I’m not imputing cause and effect, just that what I’ve highlighted about those individuals are the very ‘qualities’ that makes them the blue-eyed boys/girls to their evangelista bosses)
e.g. the J-Star reporter who called Rosmah “Big Mama”, “the biggest one of all” to Hannah Yeoh’s “hu hu hu” has got promoted twice since that episode
and then there’s that girl who alluded that the MCA sec-gen Kong Cho Ha is “Donkey Kong” …
One reader even commented that everyone I dislike somehow gets amply rewarded, like HY with the Speaker’s chair, and Wong Chun Wai with the CEO position in his company.
For God to punish those who deserved, He will give them the sense of security and wealth. then when they feel nobody will dare to punish them, the God will take everything from them. It is a Karma things Helen.
:lsarah
For Muslim, harta kekayaan dan pangkat pun satu dugaan la Helen. Sebab tu mereka tak mudah melatah dan cepat bersyukur. Stop worrying la Helen. May Allah SWT balas your good deeds for Dia knows best!
We may have our differences from faith issues to political leanings. Admittedly I don’t condone the way you ridicule the thought of religious reconciliations but I do appreciate you taking time to provide a platform for peeps to share their 2 cents. I can only imagine how tedious it is to manage the comments and profanities.
I sincerely wish you all the best in your future endeavors.
I’ve signed on for a (new) 12-month project. Fingers crossed.
Dear Helen.. please do not stop..!! I,m your silent follower..
Go and take your break.. but please don’t stop blogging…
God blees U…!!
This blog will continue. Only that politics is too intense, too exhausting and uncomfortable truths trigger the berserk in those religious fanatics.
Maintain with light stuff so that everyone’s high blood pressure will not shoot up.
going to miss your write ups helen, but i guess a whole lot of ppl following your blog will understand your situation too.
All the best to you helen, have a good rest take your meals on time, live your life to the fullest , god bless.
I’ve eaten two oranges. I missed going out for dinner just now. But it’s begun to rain more heavily.
Ms H, really hope u will re-think decision to quit. Take a break, a big break. Thanks
I have to say, I am a bit surprised by this turn of events. I did enjoying sparing with you and although we have fundamentally differing viewpoints, you never once censored my views, indeed in any other partisan site, I would have been kicked out a long time ago.
I will of course stop by and read what you have to say about books and movies. All the best on your endeavours and I will miss how you troll the DAP apparatchiks.
Cheers
I’ve been taking all the low blows (not referring to you but to “them”) without censoring. I’m left bruised and battered. Not to mention tired.
Nonetheless I’m one who believes in karma. They will be getting theirs sooner than they think.
Helen,
It is a matter of common sense or rather lack of it actually. A Prime Minister must behave and act like a Prime minister.
Najib’s strategy is mind boggling. He loves to please those who literally waging war at his government. He met racist Dong Zong prior to election when all Malays know that the Chinese votes are good as “gone with the wind”.
He participated in getting fund for Chinese secondary school in Kuantan. Something that no other Prime minister in this world would want to do.
He is refusing to make change in AG’s office when many question AG himself.
He has not been defending the honour of his wife. Harsh as it may seem. But islam has a word for it . And it is very unpleasant.
It is time najib to go.
re: “He has not been defending the honour of his wife.”
She’s not my most favourite person in the world but the Dapsters are painting her like some kind of Marie Antoinette.
Allowing this – the PM’s wife as a hate figure – to go on is detrimental to BN’s fortunes. It is the lowest common denominator political capital (recall that DAP parodied Rosmah’s “diamond ring” in their Psy music video) for the opposition.
Helen,
Yup. The feeling is mutual. I too not a great admirer of Datin Rosmah. But common sense and good breeding dictate that I must accord respect to another man’s wife. More so if she happens to be the wife of a sovereign head of government.
Attack Rosmah to whack Najib. That is the strategy. Only a moron would ignore the insult his wife is getting. Act up Najib. Be firm. Bring those doing all these nonsense drama in Youtube ridiculing your wife.
But Najib being Najib is too eager to be popular. Popular but not respected. and still losing votes.
Ms H. My 3 Golden Attributes for a person to be Prime Minister are as follows :-
1. Commonsense. A person should not run around the hot and humid streets of Kl or take off one’s pants in public etc
2. The Ability to Think out of a Box. A person should have original ideas and follow up orders with a note book because no one will want to be the Boss when trouble comes. They all run away.
3. Compassion. Some have none and some have too much of it. You need to look no further than across the Causeway !
Gonna miss your political postings. I read each and everyone of your postings. Sometimes, I even comment. :)
I found a picture to go with your current posting. Well two really – one for the “king of the mountain” and the other for the “durian runtuh” salary increase.
http://imgur.com/3wt5a
Have a good rest then you should go and enjoy the rest of your life. And my request, please come back for the next GE.
Hahaha
Helen,
We surely are going to miss your take on Malaysian politics. Anyhow, I don’t blame you as the current political situation really sucks. Malaysian politics does not differ very much from American politics. Here we also have a leader who is a flip-flop and cakap tak serupa bikin. Out of all the promises made during his pre-presidential campaigns ‘Yes, we can!’ only a few have materialized, one of which is universal healthcare. We have to sign up for Obamacare by Dec 15 so that our coverage will start on Jan 1, 2014. But to sign up for it, it’s not that easy. We have encountered glitches after glitches and they promise to fix the problems on its website but they still persist and time is running out.
Well, tomorrow (Thursday) is Thanksgiving Day and it is a big thing here. I’ll be going shopping big time tomorrow as most department stores open at 8:00 a.m. Brand-named boots that usually cost hundreds of dollars will be on sale for $19.99. The sale will continue on Black Friday (so called because most retail stores’ P & L will turn black [profit] from red [loss] and shoppers will get further discounts. I remember a long time ago, my sisters and I used to camp outside Metrojaya, KL during sale days. Now, whenever I go back to Malaysia, I hardly visit KL. In fact, I’ve not visited KL in the last 10 years. Sorry, for my digression.
I wish you all the best in your future undertaking!
Thanks.
Hi Helen,
I’m sad to hear that you are leaving political blogging but happy you will have more time for yourself.
But will it be a Alex Ferguson retirement? Or Michael Schumacher retirement… Haha
PM Najib has always been a weak leader since the day he joined politics in feudalistic and traditions-bound UMNO. But he was lucky along his political journey until this point…
The MB Pahang’s post was handed to him on a silver platter in the era of his father Tun Razak.
After that, Najib was watched over and helped along during Dr Mahathir’s time, as gratitude to Tun Razak’s care of Dr M during his early political years. Even at one point, Najib was shaded under Anwar during his rise in UMNO top leadership.
With Dr Mahathir facing his mortality, he wants his progeny to rise and takeover UMNO. So Najib no longer has Dr M’s kind benevolence to cover for his weak leadership.
Ironically at the top of his ambition as PM with all the shades removed, Najib the individual is now exposed as a weak, indecisive and blank leader…
~ Anak Pasir Gudang
Anak pasir gudang,
Get your facts right.
Najib won the Pekan seat in 1976. the seat was vacant following the death of his father.
He became MB of Pahang in early 1980s.
Helen,
I have disagreed with virtually every single one of your articles which I have read BUT gawdamnit, you do write some very good articles even if you ramble on and on sometimes. :)
Finally, in one of your last articles, I find that I do agree with you on one thing and that is, PSM is one of the most decent political parties around.
A lot of the work PSM has done to help the poor and marginalised in Malaysia have just gone un-noticed and un-acknowledged and yet PSM continues its’ work quietly and resolutely.
As for your planned hiatus, I do hope that you will continue to, ocassionally, take the time to have a rant about something political for no particular reason other than to amuse yourself, if you want to.
Thank you for the effort you have made to try and add something to the political scene in Malaysia.
re: “I have disagreed with virtually every single one of your articles which I have read…”
Glad to be told that my blog is not an echo chamber where there’s a herd mentality and everyone thinks alike on pain of excommunication.
A prayer of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. for our Sister Helen:
Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim
O Allah, Thou art Peace! from Thee comes Peace, and unto Thee does Peace return. Therefore, oh our Lord, fill us with Thy Peace, and admit us into Thy Paradise, the Realm of Tranquility.
Amin ya Rabbil Alamiin
Thank you.
Najib will appoint Ambiga to a position of authority funded by government but not in government. The capitulation to Ambiga is a capitulation to Bersih which will sound not the death knell of UMNO but the rise of Ketuanan Melayu through a more radical polity of Malays.
re: “the rise of Ketuanan Melayu through a more radical polity of Malays”
My reading of the situation is the same, grkumar.
However, I think the more radical polity will be of Muslims First, which overlaps Malays. Hence the rise of bodies in the framework of Isma (Muslim Malay) rather than Perkasa (Malay).
I deliberately left out naming Perkasa. But for all intents and purposes if the Oxford and Nottingham educated Malay elite don’t pull their heads in and listen carefully to a disgruntled mass of Muslim (Malays) they will sign their own death warrant as a party of the Malay Muslim majority.
Najib is not too soft, he simply has a very soft underbelly. If that’s not the case then he has allowed the grass to grow under his feet for too long and that spells an impending political disaster for him. he appears a bit out of touch.
Najib’s mishandling of Bersih 2.0 and all of the other disruptive and destructive NGO attacks against man and his government has undermined not just he but also UMNO, its moral and political authority. I think they have been wounded fatally.
In being indolent in the face of such a ferocious and unrelenting attack against UMNO the government and its institutions the rot has taken hold amongst the judiciary and other institutions of government rendering the Malays and Muslims vulnerable. The government has now surrendered all moral and political authority to Perkasa by default. And all glory to Perkasa.
This is what happens when one inherits authority without earning it.
Agree with your appraisal, grkumar. The relentless attacks on Umno (and BN) has been too destructive. Umno has not been fending off these attacks.
Yup, the ruling Malay elite is out of touch with base.
And yes, the grassroots are feeling vulnerable and abandoned, i.e. Umno appears incapable of ‘protecting’ (maybe there is a better word than this …”defending Malay-Muslim interests”) them in the face of the brutal onslaught.
Umno is losing it, to the alternatives like Isma, Perkasa, etc.
Apropos diversity of voices. Here’s a comment on the “M’kini building – Penang Gerakan head buys a brick” news thread :
“Mr Teng, no amount of soap can clean the blood off
your tainted hands. You can buy a million Mkini bricks but as long as you cohort with those Umno racists, nothing will save you. You say you support free journalism but you also support Umno who spews poisonous lies and racial hatred with their Utusan, people will know something does not add up” – lim chong leong
Apparently “free journalism” only extends to the alternative press and not Establishment news organs. I know kool aid drinkers think that “free journalism = alternative press = ethical journalism, not to mention “racism” only exist in the context of UMNO but perhaps for those people here who think that the Establishment should clamp down or regulate the media, it would wise to remember that it was those very regulations (and other variables) that was the cauldron in which the kool aid was brewed.
Conrad,
You’ve copypasted the typical comment of a Dapster. They behave like this 24/7. It is very bad behaviour. I can’t stress enough on how really, really bad their behaviour is.
Now … I’m a trained writer, who from professional working experience, am required to be able to articulate my thoughts clearly and coherently. But if you were to ask me to produce a 500-word essay on ‘Dapster — a description’, it would be very taxing for me. How to frame in printed words on a page the behaviour of On Your Toes and his ilk?
Confronted with the requirement of describing a Dapster, I’ve resorted to passing the buck to my readers, asking: “What kind of people are they?!”
Suffice to say, they make other people, especially those on the opposite side of the political or religious divide very angry. Meluat. Teramat menjijikkan.
If the Bintang Lima are eliciting this visceral responses, don’t you think that Newton’s Third Law of Motion will come into play? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
So imagine when (not if) the diametrical counterparts of OYT and LCL “bangkit” (alluding to the Utusan headline ‘Melayu bangkit’) menghadapi cabaran.
For those of you who can get hold of the book, I strongly recommend Cheah Boon Kheng’s ‘Red Star Over Malaya’ which covers the interregnum — the short period (between the surrender of the Japanese in Malaya and before the return of British troops) when the komunis Bintang Tiga mengganas dan the Malays retaliated through amok.
Read it because the bloodletting is recorded fact.
I’m sick and tired of the ‘In Deniers’ who brush off warnings given on the Endless Possibilities as being merely fear-mongering conducted by Perkasa “Scumnos” / “running dogs” to win votes for Umno.
It’s the same In-Denial Syndrome of the Dapsters when like LCL (cited by Conrad above) who labels Umno “racist” and slams Utusan as spewing “poisonous lies and racial hatred” when obviously the man lacks a mirror in his home.
It is as much the Dapster hypocrisy that makes people angry (even angrier). The lid on all this boiling anger, and the constantly bubbling Politics of Hate which is building up inside the pressure cooker will eventually blow off. And as I’ve mentioned, it is not going to be a pretty sight when it happens.
Dear Helen,
I am a loyal follower of your writing as yours is the few bloggers who write with data. You always put forward your opinion supported by logic and evidence. I also really believe you love your country as do many of your readers.
Unfortunately for us you are right PM Najib has failed to protect UMNO and the honour of his wife. He has definitely failed to slow down the rift in racial polarisation and has no plan to slow down the DAP/PKR runaway train that will hit the station. PM Najib cares too much about being looked popular, and is not able to provide the leadership needed to turn the tide.
Sad but true PM Najib and his current liutenants do not have what it takes to go for the jugular. PM Najib has made it impossible for the middle-ground BN supporter to allow the present UMNO to form the next government.
Helen, please take a break but do not totally stop writing on politics. Wish you all the best!
Thanks for your wishes.
re: “the DAP/PKR runaway train that will hit the station”
One reader here previously provided the analogy of the Pakatan bus and the BN bus playing chicken to see which one of the two is the more daring, and which will be the first to pull the brakes in their race to the edge of the cliff.
Some of us are of the opinion that the bus(es) will fly off the cliff, unfortunately along with the innocent passengers inside.
T.kasih Helen. Kami akan merindui tulisan Helen. Memahami situasi Helen, berharap Helen dapat menjaga kesihatan Helen dan sentiasa sihat selalu.
Thank you.
Dear Helen,
No hate, no income. Bingo! Spot on.
Praise the Lord. I was and am not alone after all.
Helen. Alamak. Earlier I read half way thru, commented, and rushed out for meeting. Didn’t realise that you intend to take ‘sabbatical leave’. I read your blogs religiously but hardly comment. You write one one of the best blogs in town. I wish you keep on writing. Other than SAA, you finely rip open the hypocrisy in Malaysian politics which most Malaysians do not see.
Thanks.
I’m not intending to write as such anymore as it takes up too much time and emotional investment.
I’m just gonna copypaste a picture and give a one-line caption.
Commenters are invited to write.
‘I’m just gonna copypaste a picture and give a one-line caption.’
HH, see, one liners work. Especially on dumbing down kakis like you who does not deserve much time and emotional investment. Tak faham2 lagi ke?
Saudari Helen,
Never say never, though in some cases I do wish Bieber never picked up a mike.
Take your well deserved break and enjoy being a spectator to the political circus. There is a hell lot of a sandiwara coming up. Never a dull moment in Malaysian politics, I’ll say.
Okay, will take a ringside seat.
Helen,
Did you read Che Sapienza ‘s article about your blog in the Malaysian Insider and if so, watcha think about that ?
Che Sapienza is, if I’m not mistaken, in the Italian language. Italy, whose capital is Rome and enclosed within Rome is the Holy See (the smallest sovereign state in the world, Vatican City). In any case, there is a Sapienza University in Rome.
Ergo, Che Sapienza is likely an evangelista, going by the choice of his pseudonym.
Since, Conrad, you are critical enough, why not you subject the piece to a close analysis and examine the sneaky rhetorical devices he employed that amount to a hatchet job on me.
I would say the choice of host (TMI) says a lot.
Just for old times sake.
I mean it’s not difficult (maybe not a detailed analysis….) , just glancing the article, (which a friend linked to), I’ve noticed the following :
1. Start off with an ad hominem implying that you are a paid stooge.
2. Imply that your political leaning has impacted the credibility of your writing
3. Maintain that hypocrisy when used as a criticism is only meant for the Establishment.
4. Maintain that sincerity is only applicable to the Opposition
5. Imply that pointing out (3) means that YOU personally are against some sort of cultural/religious reconciliation.
6. The use of the word “Malaysians” as a substitute for partisans, as (a) a means of dividing along ideological lines instead of racial or religious lines [as per the Bangsa Malaysia kool aid] (b) as a means of controlling the discourse (c) maintain the us vs. them mentality.
7. Invite fellow “Malaysians” to troll the site in the guise of “judging” for themselves.
8. Anyone questioning the acts of goodwill in the Opposition, in essence questioning the Oppositional political elite are sanction worthy (refer to 7)
9. Play the victim card when it comes to the Christians in Malaysia and advance the narrative that Christians are meek.
10. Dismiss the religious imperatives of PAS and its history and conflate political expediency with political idealism.
11. Ignore the fact that Christian/Muslim dialectic has dragged in the other religions and dismiss such implications as “lies”.
12. Characterize the Non Malay identity of Establishment partisans as subservient and lacking in substance, when the question of race – esp when it comes to the propaganda of Bangsa Malaysia is verboten.
13. Characterize anyone who does not toe the Opposition line as provocateurs intent on destabilizing the fragile ethnic relationships in this country.
14. Remind PAS that it needs the Non Malays and Non Muslims, when the reality is that tactically, PAS needs neither if it wanted to be part of the ruling elite with UMNO.
15. Claim that not understanding cultural and religious diversity means that the country will not succeed as if such a proposition was unknown to the Ruling Elite and pre 2008, this was ever a consideration when voting.
16. Claim that Muslim/Malay salvation lies in the ideology that the Opposition peddles.
17. End article with a platitude about free speech all the while implying that all Helen Ang does is lie.
Thanks Conrad.
I hope the Malays and the Muslims realise the extent of the what the evangelistas (malicious cunning) are capable of, and why they are more dangerous than Dapsters (blunt force).
Much of what Che Sapienza wrote is on the dot. Just going through a few of your writings, most of it seem geared to stoke a Muslim versus Christian clash and stoke your readers anger toward a phantom Christian-based plot.
People seeking or appearing to build bridges between religious and racial communities gets attacked. You even criticised Najib for his inter community council accusing him of emulating the ‘Malaysian First’ approach of the Opposition. But both the Opposition and the Government is making moves to appeal or appear to appeal to the middle ground of a multicultural demographic.
I believe this reader also has a point…
“Helen may have still have been turned, but I’d say it was more likely some serious let-down by some Pakatan personalities which made her bitter and disillusioned.
But Helen’s venom against some Pakatan targets seems rather pronounced and disproportionate. Smacks of grave lack of objectivity and basis.”
An analogy would be a civil rights activist having disagreements with other activists, then choosing to ally with the extreme fascist right wing groups.
AC-DC,
I will respond to you part by part.
re: “People seeking or appearing to build bridges between religious and racial communities gets attacked.”
And that is the hypocrisy that reeks from every pore of the evangelistas quite simply because their bipolar position is untenable. Take Ong Kian Ming and his “Insya Allah”, #sahur, “kita puasa sama-sama” stunts, which to you, would qualify for “building bridges between religious communities”.
But he is the very same individual taking the evangelista line in the ‘Allah’ dispute. If someone really respected Islam, he would not be arrogantly bulldozing the demand and dismissing the Muslim sense of alarm as coming from an “easily confused”, “tak kan iman boleh begitu rapuh sekali” faith group.
They are the ones stirring the religious stew pot in the first place.
(As a comparison, Buddhists and Hindus here in Malaysia generally have no quarrel with each other. And so there is no need to make a public relations show of having this “bridge building” exercise because there is no yawning chasm – and the attendant danger it brings – between Hindus and Buddhists in the first place.)
Whereas the evangelistas provoke and deceive (DUMC case), cause the other side to be shaken and stirred (sarang tebuan dijolok) and then they (the Christians) make a show of singing Kumbaya and accuse others (Buddhists) who are not interested in their Kumbaya singing as being religious bigots who don’t put in the effort to foster interfaith understanding.
In the last spate of arson and firebombings, no Buddhist temple was attacked.
Yet the evangelistas are trying their darndest (e.g. Lim Guan Eng’s Christmas 2012 message) to incite and drag the adherents of the other faiths – to bolster the minority numbers – to coming into conflict with the Muslims.
There is a name for Guan Eng and his DAP SuperCyber Bullies @imokman & @hannahyeoh. It is munafik. And not amount of tudung-wearing and traipsing into mosques can cover the stench.
Part 2 of my response to AC-DC
re: “You even criticised Najib for his inter community council accusing him of emulating the ‘Malaysian First’ approach of the Opposition. But both the Opposition and the Government is making moves to appeal or appear to appeal to the middle ground of a multicultural demographic.”
Najib said:
Bila orang menjaja air liur, seribu satu patah perkataan indah boleh disembur.
“If we do not see each other through the lens of race or religion” is an empty platitude when we have Chinese schools and UiTM.
It’s not difficult at all to mouth platitudes. I’ll show you … “We’re all brothers and sisters; love, love, love, love, love; we belong to the same big, happy family; love, love, love, love, love; let’s us all treat each other with mutual respect and love, love, love, love, love; Malays are my nephews and Indians are my nieces, love, love, love, love, love, love; we share this country all of us sheltering under the same blue roof; love, love, love, love, love; and thus we must enjoin peace and harmony; love, love, love, love, love; Malaysia for Malaysians, Malaysian First, Middle Malaysia dan Hidup Anak Bangsa Malaysia! Salam 1Malaysua and I’ll see ya in church on Sunday, ciao.”
Shall I copypaste my ‘Building Bridges’ message in Anas Zubedy’s blog, Marina Mahathir’s blog, the Global Movement for Moderates (Saifuddn Abdullah’s) website to show everyone what a wonderful bridge builder I am?
Part 3 of my reply to AC-DC
re: “But Helen’s venom against some Pakatan targets seems rather pronounced and disproportionate. Smacks of grave lack of objectivity and basis.” — reader’s comment
How much “objectivity and basis” can the hatchet man Che Sapienza muster to lend any kind of credibility to his/her smear job?
I’ll reproduce some extracts from Che Sapienza’s previous article titled ‘Liberty, equality and fraternity on July 9 – Che Sapienza’ in TMI (screenshot of page, here).
In the article, that fella is talking about his/her experience at the Bersih 2.0 rally after “[h]aving come back to this country recently after having been away for more than 20 years”.
Wow, how Malaysian! And in those 20 years aboard, did Che Sapienza even speak a word of Malay? (not likely unless he/she had been an expat in Indonesia or Brunei).
Che Sapienza writes: “I was not familiar with the streets and did not quite know how to get to any of the pre-announced meeting points, i.e. Dataran Merdeka, Sogo Shopping Centre and Masjid Jamek Kampung Baru, on my own.”
So the person is not even familiar with the capital city of Malaysia. And what else Malaysiana might he be unfamiliar with?
Continuing his/her write-up, Che Sapienza says: “After 20 minutes into our walk, two young Malay men, tailed us and then boldly walked among us. … I was wondering if they were Umno Youth or Perkasa fighters who had been tipped off to shadow us.”
So much for not wearing racial lens, eh? Che Sapienza had to specify that the two young men were Malay. Che Sapienza didn’t say ala Hannah Yeoh that they were Malaysians (not Indian, not Chinese, not Malay, etc)
Next extract: “Don’t worry. I am from PAS,” he told me in clear and well pronounced English, his gentle voice at variance with his rough looks. ‘Oh, yes… of course. Thank you very much,’ I beamed at him. They were there to protect us.”
Golly. Che Sapienza seems taken aback that PAS Malays are able to speak English!
Next extract: “The largely Malay crowd which had gathered in the Masjid Jamek area just before 2pm … Malays freely came up to shake hands … several Malay women in Islamic head dress, both young girls and middle-aged women … some Malay men too asked to have their photographs taken with him”
So much emphasis on ethnicity. It’s like this Che Sapienza is a rusa masuk kampung. Tak pernah berdampingan dengan orang Melayu, ke?
Next extract: “The moment of truth soon arrived. No sooner had I hooked arms with an Indian and a Malay as part of a marching row”
Again the emphasis on race (Indian and Malay new found comrades). Again, Che Sapienza ni seolah-olah tidak pernah bersemuka dengan orang India sebelum ni.
Next extract: “A few minutes later, the largely Malay crowd cheered and made way for two women, one Indian and the other a Chinese (I think), to move from the back of the crowd …”
Race, race, race — by a Firster bridge builder.
Next extract: “a young Malay man, who ran past me with his eyes closed. I tapped his shoulder to stop him. I splashed some water on his face. In the next few seconds, I splashed water on three Malays and an Indian, all suffering from the ill-effects of tear gas.”
More emphasis on race, race, race. You know that story about VIPs. If you’re an important Tan Sri walking into a posh restaurant, you don’t have to tell the waiter who you are. If you do find that you have to introduce your title, then you’re really not important (VIP) enough for them to recognise you.
Well, it’s the same here. Che Sapienza’s profound self-consciousness and need to identify all his fellow Bersih ralliers-well-met by their race shows how much he is lacking in genuine exposure to the Malay and Indian races.
Next extract: “As a non-Malay, what did I think of the day’s events and the future? … The Malay protestors around me were everything that one could wish for in a fellow citizen. They were courageous, courteous, and helpful …”
Duh. So before July 9, he had never been face-to-face with a courteous or helpful Malay beofre, eh? I sure sounds like it from his rusa masuk kampung narrative.
re: “We must reach out and share these skills and expertise. We will find that there are many smart, well-educated, hard-working and open-minded Malays who will connect with us to work for all Malaysians on the basis of equality and common dignity.”
With regard to Che Sapienza’s “We will find that there are many smart, well-educated, hard-working and open-minded Malays”, doesn’t it sound patronizing to you?
Next extract: “In that future, we would have become one people at heart, i.e. Malaysians, although we will likely remain ethnically different peoples during my life time. I believe that this country can have a great future again on the basis of liberty, equality and fraternity. I felt that on July 9, 2011.”
Che Sapienza sounds exactly like a Kit Siang press statement. I really mean this, literally. Just google “liberty, equality and fraternity” in Uncle Kit’s web archives and you can make a fit.
I’ve saved the next extract as the conclusion I wish to highlight.
Che Sapienza writes: “We must engage the Muslim majority and stand in solidarity with them to reclaim the country, which is now in the hands of a ruling elite that is out of touch with the real issues and disdainful of the people.”
I believe Che Sapienza is the one “that is out of touch with the real issues”.
What kind of people is he/she who is so shallow – as the above appraisal indicates – and yet so brazen in throwing accusations about bridge-burning? His/her opinion on race relations is only worth a fig to the perpetually hysterical Pakatoons.
Helen I agree with you absolutely on this. Stop wasting time layan these kakis. You deserved to be happy. I felt bad that you have to explain yourself like this. Get some sleep and stop giving credits to Che Influenza whatever his name was.
‘With regard to Che Sapienza’s “We will find that there are many smart, well-educated, hard-working and open-minded Malays”, doesn’t it sound patronizing to you?’
The non Melayu patronizing the Melayus like that is nothing new. Most of the time, we are the malas and bodo sakai with half baked credentials only good for gomen opis or better still masuk hutan for good, for the betterment of Malaysia. Kadang-kadang they would puji us with that kind of patronizing tone. That’s the most a Melayu gets. Period.
Che Spender can berambus from where he had been hiding!
Final part (4) of my response to AC-DC
re: “An analogy would be a civil rights activist having disagreements with other activists, then choosing to ally with the extreme fascist right wing groups.”
If you think that my ‘allies’ in this blog are bent towards “the extreme fascist right wing groups”, then I believe you’ve just given the final confirmation to the opinion which the Malay readership of this blog holds of you.
While I disagree with AC-DC’s appraisal of Che’s article and agree with your rebuttal, I do however think that AC-DC has a point when it comes “the extreme fascist ring wing groups”. To be clear I think many of your commenters here display such tendencies from consistent posters to drive bys.
I have no idea why this would be particularly disturbing when such folks also dominate the alternative media comment sections. The extreme factions often are the most vocal, so it doesn’t surprise me that they would dominate the discourse from either end of the spectrum.
I of course already know what the Malay readership of this blog thinks of me, so I reckon’ this post is merely confirmation of that.
re: “The extreme factions often are the most vocal, so it doesn’t surprise me that they would dominate the discourse from either end of the spectrum.”
I don’t think that the majority of my blog readers are ones hanging out with “the extreme fascist ring wing groups”. If they were, the environment here would be too unpleasant even for civil discourse to take place.
re: “such folks also dominate the alternative media comment sections”
Those spaces are like toxic dumps. Radioactive. Venture there at grave risk to health.
And this leads to the danger that I see is with Pakatan’s almost complete control of the English language media. It’s impossible to get any kind of breakthrough to the perpetual hysterics dwelling there.
One of the primary reasons I believe that Pakatan is a menace is because they are populated with slick, slippery evangelista characters like Che Sapienza.
I maintain what I say about Umno as Parti Paling Tidak Apa. They’re not making the kind of efforts that DAP is at mind control b’cos of the Melayu rileks aje attitude.
When the Malays lose the war of rhetoric (against the likes of those who employ the Che Sapienza methods), they resort to blunt force. Hence Utusan’s “Apa lagi Cina mahu?” Which is greeted with “We want transparency, we want accountability, we want an end to corruption blah, blah, blah …”
Or they firebomb churches. Which provides the opportunity for the peninsula Christians to play victim. I believe that the Muslims have the strongest case in the Allah argument but why then did they manage to lose the battle of words in 2010-2011?
It’s b’cos the Malays were confronted with such slickness and such slipperiness that they had no answer. How does one deal with that kind of people? (the kind who not only deny that Bak Kut Teh is pork but can turn around an insist that Alvivi knowing well enough pork is tak halal might have kind enough to promote organic vegetarian BKT).
When Malays fail to articulate their case against these wizards of the forked tongue, then they mengamok lah.
Umno’s gertak is hostile. DAP’s slick & slippery methods are poisonous. It is easier to confront gertak. It is more difficult to treat poison.
Between poison and hostility, I believe poison is the greater menace.
Re:” I don’t think that the majority of my blog readers are ones hanging out with “the extreme fascist ring wing groups”. If they were, the environment here would be too unpleasant even for civil discourse to take place.”
When you caution that violence is inevitable because the “Malays” cannot articulate their views or counter the propaganda of their opponents, this is an extremist sentiment esp so in a supposed functional democracy.
Mind you, I am not saying that you are an extremist merely pointing out that your sentiments are.
The reason why the discourse is civil is because the majority subscribe to the same dogma (be it extreme right or center right) with the exceptions of a few posters here. I consider myself one of the latter.
Re:” Those spaces are like toxic dumps. Radioactive. Venture there at grave risk to health.”
Again this is the confirmation bias attitude of most online partisans. To wit, most Pakatan partisans – like Che – consider this place toxic.
Re:” And this leads to the danger that I see is with Pakatan’s almost complete control of the English language media. It’s impossible to get any kind of breakthrough to the perpetual hysterics dwelling there.”
This is the natural consequence of the restrictions placed on the mainstream press, the inability of the Establishment to understand the new terrain of the propaganda war, the nature of partisan politics but more importantly the function of the internet as a venting tool.
For years the Oppositional forces in this country riled against the fact that they had no avenue to express their side of the story. These days it is the Establishment who are pissed off that their own state funded propaganda tools are ineffective.
This is why we get calls for restrictions, which is the most pathetic of strategies and a feature of some kind of fascism.
Re:” One of the primary reasons I believe that Pakatan is a menace is because they are populated with slick, slippery evangelista characters like Che Sapienza.”
I consider Che from the same mold of someone like Ridhuan Tee.
Re:” I maintain what I say about Umno as Parti Paling Tidak Apa. They’re not making the kind of efforts that DAP is at mind control b’cos of the Melayu rileks aje attitude.”
Fine but what would be a “not rileks” attitude ? More restrictions on the online press ? Keris rattling ? Putting the Chinese in their place ?
I don’t see any evidence from the groupthink here that it should be mounting an aggressive counter propaganda campaign in the English media only threats of violent retaliation.
Re:” When the Malays lose the war of rhetoric (against the likes of those who employ the Che Sapienza methods), they resort to blunt force. Hence Utusan’s “Apa lagi Cina mahu?” Which is greeted with “We want transparency, we want accountability, we want an end to corruption blah, blah, blah …”
Forget about the fact that saying “Malays” in this context is exactly my criticism of Che’s use of the word “Malaysian”……what exactly does this say about our democracy. If “we” lose the rhetoric war, blunt force will be the answer. Is OKM, correct? Is Malaysia not a democracy?
Re:” Or they firebomb churches. Which provides the opportunity for the peninsula Christians to play victim. I believe that the Muslims have the strongest case in the Allah argument but why then did they manage to lose the battle of words in 2010-2011?”
They lost the war because instead of addressing the argument they were busy making threats. Even the most recent judgment was a muddle. Mind you I think both sides had weak arguments and I have stated here that I believe it is a question of freedom of expression/speech.
Which brings us back to the question of a functional democracy. So you lose the argument, then what ? You violently attack the victor ?
Re:”It’s b’cos the Malays were confronted with such slickness and such slipperiness that they had no answer. How does one deal with that kind of people? (the kind who not only deny that Bak Kut Teh is pork but can turn around an insist that Alvivi knowing well enough pork is tak halal might have kind enough to promote organic vegetarian BKT).”
I dunno’. Instead of making threats why don’t they respond like the way you did. Why is it the “Malays” have to be held to a lower standard ?
To wit I saw many responses here that demolished the arguments made by the slicksters with nary a mention of violence. Why can’t this be the strategy instead of threats of violence and expulsion ?
And in the end there is always the ballot box, which normally pricks the egotism of online discourse.
Re; “When Malays fail to articulate their case against these wizards of the forked tongue, then they mengamok lah.”
So we are not a democracy. Then maybe we should suspend elections and just give the Malays or UMNO whatever they want. In fact ban the internet.
Re:”Umno’s gertak is hostile. DAP’s slick & slippery methods are poisonous. It is easier to confront gertak. It is more difficult to treat poison.”
How is it easier to confront gertak, when by your reasoning violence is inevitable when “they” lose an argument.
Re:” Between poison and hostility, I believe poison is the greater menace.”
I do not think so. I think the greater menace in a democracy is the threat of violence if you don’t get your way.
re: “When you caution that violence is inevitable because the ‘Malays’ cannot articulate their views or counter the propaganda of their opponents, this is an extremist sentiment esp so in a supposed functional democracy.”
I caution that amok is what happens when one party is unable to articulate when confronted (PIS: Provoked, Insulted, Slandered) by a party that is too slick and sneaky.
Because it is what happened when the churches were firebombed in January 2011. How can anyone conceivably present reasoned views when you’re dealing with the kind of people who can spin that Bak Kut Teh is organic vegetarian?
re: “Mind you, I am not saying that you are an extremist merely pointing out that your sentiments are.”
They are not my sentiments. I’m merely pointing out what is happening on the ground. Why do you think that Isma, Perkasa, Pekida and what not are gaining so much traction?
Re: “I don’t see any evidence from the groupthink here that it should be mounting an aggressive counter propaganda campaign in the English media only threats of violent retaliation.”
Don’t you think that the threats of violent retaliation should be paid some heed?
Re: “Is OKM, correct? Is Malaysia not a democracy?”
So what’s your bone? The icon of the Malay right never claimed that he ran a ‘democracy’ along the rhetorical planks of Kit Siang’s Liberty, Equality, Fraternity sloganeering. Why don’t OKM do his assessment paper on the state of democracy in Penang, and start the UBAH there first?
Re: “They lost the war [2010] because instead of addressing the argument they were busy making threats.”
And then the threats materialized into the arson and firebombings. So I’m not wrong, am I?
re: “Which brings us back to the question of a functional democracy. So you lose the argument, then what ? You violently attack the victor ?”
Hey, I’m not running a Pakatan blog. It’s not my brief to preach Democracy-Liberty-Equality-Fraternity. And it appears we’re both in agreement that the victor of the verbal war is the evangelistas.
re: “I dunno’. Instead of making threats why don’t they respond like the way you did. Why is it the ‘Malays’ have to be held to a lower standard ?”
I am able to respond calmly and collectedly because I do not have any emotional investment in ‘Allah’. I do not pray 5 times a daily and in each of those prayers invoking Allah’s name many times. I do not say “Insya Allah”, “Alhamdulillah”, “Masyaallah”, and laungkan takbir “Allahu Akbar”.
If you want them to respond the way you do, then they have to be something like me — the minority of a minority (1 out 10 Chinese).
re: “To wit I saw many responses here that demolished the arguments made by the slicksters with nary a mention of violence. Why can’t this be the strategy instead of threats of violence and expulsion ?”
So you’re saying my clever commenters are extremists but non-violent?
re: “And in the end there is always the ballot box, which normally pricks the egotism of online discourse.”
And the 40,000 Bangladeshis, some sighted in Subang Jaya.
Re: “So we are not a democracy. Then maybe we should suspend elections and just give the Malays or UMNO whatever they want. In fact ban the internet.”
Conrad, do you hear me preaching democracy here in my blog? Do I rattle on and on about “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”? It’s like you walk into a dog grooming salon and ask the shampoo girl to perm your hair.
Re: “How is it easier to confront gertak, when by your reasoning violence is inevitable when ‘they’ lose an argument.”
To me, the several acts of church arson is less damaging than the damage that the evangelitas have inflicted on Malaysia’s multi-ethnic society in their pursuit of appropriating Allah.
I’m not condoning or encouraging the torching of churches. You asked me to state which one (Gertak or Poison) is the more ‘easy’ for the authorities to deal with. I say the Gertak fellas because the arsonists were given prison sentence and locked up. In comparison the poisoners are still at large.
Re: “Between poison and hostility, I believe poison is the greater menace.” / “I do not think so. I think the greater menace in a democracy is the threat of violence if you don’t get your way.”
We have not had any violence since May 13. I’d consider the January 2011 attacks on churches as minor violence. The timing can be correlated to the rise and rise of the evangelistas coupled with real DAP political power.
In 1945, the violence during the interregnum Sino-Malay clashes was far more severe than even 1969. My reading is that the venom injected into the bloodstream by the evangelista-Dapsters is taking us back to 1945.
This likelihood increases especially when the DAP SuperBullies are adamant in continuing with their SOP of carpet-bombing all voices critical of their party MO.
Re:” I caution that amok is what happens when one party is unable to articulate when confronted (PIS: Provoked, Insulted, Slandered) by a party that is too slick and sneaky.”
Again, this is what happens in a functional democracy. The inability to confront PIS, is an indictment against the losing party and not the victorious one.
Re:” Because it is what happened when the churches were firebombed in January 2011. How can anyone conceivably present reasoned views when you’re dealing with the kind of people who can spin that Bak Kut Teh is organic vegetarian?”
As I said, you did it here and so did some of your regular commenters. Instead what you suggest is that those who engaged in violent acts should be allowed to dominate the discourse and capitulated to.
Re;” They are not my sentiments. I’m merely pointing out what is happening on the ground. Why do you think that Isma, Perkasa, Pekida and what not are gaining so much traction?”
Actually you claim that the evangelists are the biggest threat to national harmony. You have made it the raison d’être of this blog to “expose” the DAP as possible elements that would make minority rule – that is Chinese rule – a reality in this country. As I have argued , I am not convinced that these groups are gaining traction.
Re:” Don’t you think that the threats of violent retaliation should be paid some heed?”
Yes ,I do by the State security apparatus. If someone is going to be violent because they lose a political confrontation or threaten to do so if they lose, in a functional democracy, the security apparatus will take action.
Re;” So what’s your bone? The icon of the Malay right never claimed that he ran a ‘democracy’ along the rhetorical planks of Kit Siang’s Liberty, Equality, Fraternity sloganeering. Why don’t OKM do his assessment paper on the state of democracy in Penang, and start the UBAH there first?”
My point is if all your strategies consists of giving truth to the lie that Malaysia is not a democracy (by the likes of OKM) then you should not complain that you are losing the propaganda war or that the slick ways of the DAP is proving more effective than Establishment bone headed tactics.
Re:” And then the threats materialized into the arson and firebombings. So I’m not wrong, am I?”
And yet here we still stand with an election to boot. Did those herald the end of Malaysia? Those despicable acts may have not been fully examined but what it demonstrates are the naysayers are wrong.
Re;” Hey, I’m not running a Pakatan blog. It’s not my brief to preach Democracy-Liberty-Equality-Fraternity. And it appears we’re both in agreement that the victor of the verbal war is the evangelistas.”
Excuse me. Don’t you believe in democracy ? Does UMNO/BN not believe in democracy ? So what you are saying is that people who support BN are fascists and that we should vote for the Establishment to be enslaved by a System that would curtail our rights. That’s the pitch?
If the evangelists are winning the war it is because of sentiments like the above.
Re;” I am able to respond calmly and collectedly because I do not have any emotional investment in ‘Allah’. I do not pray 5 times a daily and in each of those prayers invoking Allah’s name many times. I do not say “Insya Allah”, “Alhamdulillah”, “Masyaallah”, and laungkan takbir “Allahu Akbar”.”
Every person who adheres to a religion has an emotional attachment to it. Having one does not give anyone the right to abandon dialogue in favor of violence. If Islam has a bad reputation perhaps it is because of excuses like this, which means any act is acceptable in the defense of your religion.
Re:” If you want them to respond the way you do, then they have to be something like me — the minority of a minority (1 out 10 Chinese).
What they have to be is cautioned that violence will not be tolerated in a functional democratic society when you can’t use your words.
Re;” So you’re saying my clever commenters are extremists but non-violent?”
Why not ? The very nature of the democratic process allows people to advocate their views (whatever they may be) and perhaps take charge for a while until they lose out to other views.
Re:” And the 40,000 Bangladeshis, some sighted in Subang Jaya.”
A non sequitor. I have no idea what this has to do with our discussion at hand. These are the lies of PR which seems to have backfired on them.
Re;” Conrad, do you hear me preaching democracy here in my blog? Do I rattle on and on about “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”? It’s like you walk into a dog grooming salon and ask the shampoo girl to perm your hair.”
I dunno’. I always assumed that you believed and your readers believed in the democratic process and the real politik that went with it.
Are you saying that people should vote for the Establishment because they should vote for fascism. Then why make a big deal about the plight of Indians on this blog ? In other words I assume you believe that the Non Malays should just keep quiet like good little dogs and not say anything. If so, I guess I was wrong and Che was right. Thankfully I never had a problem admitting when I was wrong.
Re:” To me, the several acts of church arson is less damaging than the damage that the evangelitas have inflicted on Malaysia’s multi-ethnic society in their pursuit of appropriating Allah.”
Allah was a political issue that they managed to profit from. This happens in a democracy. The fact that these acts happened and that the mainstream Muslim community was not engulfed in rage says a lot.
Re;” I’m not condoning or encouraging the torching of churches. You asked me to state which one (Gertak or Poison) is the more ‘easy’ for the authorities to deal with. I say the Gertak fellas because the arsonists were given prison sentence and locked up. In comparison the poisoners are still at large.”
No what I asked was how effective would it be in dealing with a political alliance/community whose answer would always be violence if they lost the political/social discourse.
Re:” We have not had any violence since May 13. I’d consider the January 2011 attacks on churches as minor violence. The timing can be correlated to the rise and rise of the evangelistas coupled with real DAP political power.”
Probably but this is also circumstantial evidence that it is a reaction of the Establishment losing hegemony. The rhetoric supports that, after all.
Re:” In 1945, the violence during the interregnum Sino-Malay clashes was far more severe than even 1969. My reading is that the venom injected into the bloodstream by the evangelista-Dapsters is taking us back to 1945.”
Does your reading take into account the fact that the Malay community is split too? That UMNO’s desperate attempts to court PAS as chronicled by your own blog, points to terrain far removed from 69’.
Re;” This likelihood increases especially when the DAP SuperBullies are adamant in continuing with their SOP of carpet-bombing all voices critical of their party MO.”
That’s democracy. There are ways to counter that but as you said up thread, this is not a place which values that tradition, so I won’t waste time preaching the path.
Re: “Again, this is what happens in a functional democracy. The inability to confront PIS, is an indictment against the losing party and not the victorious one.”
Can you provide any concrete suggestions on how the losing party (Umno) might confront the PIS of the victorious one (DAP)?
Re: “How can anyone conceivably present reasoned views when you’re dealing with the kind of people who can spin that Bak Kut Teh is organic vegetarian?” / “As I said, you did it here and so did some of your regular commenters. Instead what you suggest is that those who engaged in violent acts should be allowed to dominate the discourse and capitulated to.”
I and some of my regulars are able to successfully present reasoned views (as you have acknowledged) because our forum comprises reasonable people. I and those of my regulars who are reasonable people will not be able to impose civility in the discourses that are held at other venues.
As a first experiment, why don’t you try to prevent the ‘violent’ ones from dominating the reader responses to any of Commander Thayaparan’s articles in Malaysiakini or in any mK articles on Waythamoorthy / Hindraf. If you are able to make any headway, do come back and let us know.
Re: “Actually you claim that the evangelists are the biggest threat to national harmony. … As I have argued , I am not convinced that these groups are gaining traction.”
If it were not for the rise and rise of the evangelistas, there would not be the corresponding rise and rise of the Muslim NGOs since the first round of the Allah dispute. I’m aware that Muslim NGOs have been rising and rising since the 1970s but we’re talking about a specific type like Isma (which is different from the earlier ones in that Isma is political and contests Parliament and DUN seats). Also I’m making the connection between the rise and specific events, such as the anti-Christian use of Allah coalition, anti-apostasy, anti-Comanggo.
You argue that you are not convinced that Isma et al are gaining traction. On the other hand, some of us would argue to the contrary and our arguments will be far more convincing. We can point to their membership numbers, their funding (e.g. if they own their own HQ building, number of seminars/campaigns) they carry out, and the amount of votes that Isma obtained in GE13.
Heck, even printing 70,000 flyers ain’t all that cheap.
What are your arguments to show that Isma is not influential?
re: “in a functional democracy, the security apparatus will take action”
Earlier vis-a-vis DAP and Umno PISsing each other, you implied that Umno is failing to maintain a functional democracy.
Re: “My point is if all your strategies consists of giving truth to the lie that Malaysia is not a democracy (by the likes of OKM) then you should not complain that you are losing the propaganda war or that the slick ways of the DAP is proving more effective than Establishment bone headed tactics.”
But I’m not complaining anymore about BN losing the propaganda war. I’ve already announced that I shall be withdrawing from political writing, remember. If I don’t write, then you obviously won’t hear me complaining in future.
re: “Those despicable acts may have not been fully examined but what it demonstrates are the naysayers are wrong.”
So if you’re so sure that the naysayers are wrong about the possibility of the churches getting attacked again, why are you complaining so much about the Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers whom you (and AC-DC) allege are lurking in my blog?
Re: “Excuse me. Don’t you believe in democracy?”
I’ve already said to you: Have you come across any posting in my blog where I preach like Kit Siang and Guan Eng about Democracy? You are like someone who keeps asking what brand of cigarette I like when I’ve never indicated that I’m a smoker.
re: “Does UMNO/BN not believe in democracy ? So what you are saying is that people who support BN are fascists and that we should vote for the Establishment to be enslaved by a System that would curtail our rights. That’s the pitch?”
It seems to me that you’re the one who’s saying that people who support BN are fascists. I, on the other hand, have consistently described my BN-supporting readers as the middle ground who are reasonable folks. That is why we are able to engage in civil discourse here which we will most certainly not be able to engage in the Malaysiakini or TMI echo chamber.
If the evangelists are winning the war it is because of sentiments like the above.
Re: “If Islam has a bad reputation perhaps it is because of excuses like this, which means any act is acceptable in the defense of your religion.”
How much more patience do you expect the Muslims to exhibit in the face of the ‘Allah’ theft?
Re: ”What they have to be is cautioned that violence will not be tolerated in a functional democratic society when you can’t use your words.”
So are we a functional democratic society? The ones using words to attack are the evangelistas and the Dapsters. The ones under verbal attack are the Muslims. (I would say this is the case wrt the ‘Allah’ dispute.) when the Muslims were unsuccessful in fending off the verbal attacks, some of them resorted to firebombing churches, and as you keep reminding us, threats of violence.
Are the evangelistas and the Dapsters functionally democratic? They are required to be, if we’re going to play by your rules of ‘No Violence’/’No Threats of Violence’.
Otherwise the two sides will not be playing the same game. It’s like pitting rugby players against ping-pong players and putting both teams on the cricket pitch, and telling them, “Okay, the match begins”.
Re: “So you’re saying my clever commenters are extremists but non-violent?” / “Why not ? The very nature of the democratic process allows people to advocate their views (whatever they may be) and perhaps take charge for a while until they lose out to other views.”
Claps, claps, claps for my clever extremist but non-violent commenters.
Re: “And the 40,000 Bangladeshis, some sighted in Subang Jaya.” / “A non sequitor. I have no idea what this has to do with our discussion at hand. These are the lies of PR which seems to have backfired on them.”
As much a non-sequitur as your insistence on offering me the Democracy brand cigarette when my blog is a No Smoking zone.
re: “In other words I assume you believe that the Non Malays should just keep quiet like good little dogs and not say anything. If so, I guess I was wrong and Che was right. Thankfully I never had a problem admitting when I was wrong.”
You know people are sensitive about “anjing” and “kucing (kurap)” allusions. Hanging around OYT too much is rubbing off on you.
And secondly, if I believe that non Malays should just keep quiet, then why in the world would I blog about the cow slaughter and the Seri Pristana cases which the DAP (with the exception of one or two of their Hindu Indians) have keep deathly silent over? I might as well have keep as quiet as the evangelistas over these issues.
Re: “Allah was a political issue that they managed to profit from. This happens in a democracy. The fact that these acts happened and that the mainstream Muslim community was not engulfed in rage says a lot.”
How do you know that the mainstream Muslim community is not angry about the Allah issue? You think that it is only the Muslim fringe that is angry about the Allah issue?
re: “Does your reading take into account the fact that the Malay community is split too? That UMNO’s desperate attempts to court PAS as chronicled by your own blog, points to terrain far removed from 69’.”
The terrain of 1945, 1969 and the near future may be different but the enmity between the Christians and the Muslims have endured for over 1-and-1/2 millennia. Have you forgotten that Pope Francis barely a week ago voiced his concern that the Middle East will be denuded of Christians?
‘You are like someone who keeps asking what brand of cigarette I like when I’ve never indicated that I’m a smoker.’
And I bet you don’t drink either like someone in particular.
You see, sober and drunkard can’t argue. Its like a long and arduous journey of a depressing roller coaster that never ends.
I don’t drink too. So I don’t waste my time arguing with those who did. Perhaps you should too.
Give it your best shot Helen in your next project. All the best.
if it doesn’t work out, can always resume your political blogging minus the mee segera and the lack of sleep and rest.
your passionate writings are worth the read of which I don’t mind paying for if you can arrange for it. And I don’t think I am alone on that score
Thanks. I’ll have to concentrate on my day job which is the one that pays the bills but nowhere close to Madam Speaker’s 40k-50k a month lah.
Blogging, especially when the Dapsters are perpetually hysterical, is too distracting due to the emotional drain.
I believe it’s come to a stage that certain quarters will deal with them. The setting up of the National Unity Consultative Council indicates that Houston (Putrajaya) has realised that they “have a problem”.
I don’t think that the talk shop NUCC will come to anything. Hence the ‘problem’ will eventually be dealt with in a non “consultative” manner. My 2sen.
Good Luck, Helen, Miss your writing too. Thank for Sharing.
Thank you.
Dear Helen, thank you for all your political expose. I wouldn’t know that DAPsters are that cunning if not for your blog. I wouldn’t even know Hannah Banana if not for your blog!
Take care of yourself. Enjoy your new 12 month project. Eat on time. Sleep on time. Let’s pray together that Malaysia will not be padang jarak padang terkukur when they start the fire fight..
“Believe you me, the Muslim fundamentalists will fight fire with fire.”
Thank you.
Helen,
Reading your blog daily is like me taking my EPO and vitamin C every night. Simply a MUST.
Anyway, have a good break.
But please please come back for GE14.
All the best with your new endeavour.
Thank you.
Helen, I can understand why you need to stop (or take a break from pol blogging). Sometimes I wonder where you get your stamina from and how you are able to withstand all that venom spat at you by the Jerusubang/BiaDAPster serpents.
IMO, you’ve done a great public service just by sharing your independent thoughts and observations. Whether or not it’s made a difference to the one-track minds on both sides of the political divide is secondary.
As an Indian, I appreciate most of all your principals, compassion and consistently singular protagonism for the rights of the most marginalized and victimized of communities in Malaysia, the Indians. With the politics of power in this country reduced to domestic Machtpolitik by the Malays and the Chinese primarily, yours is a voice in the wilderness.
You may not know it but your blog is known among the lower income/education Indians (I made sure of that) and they appreciate you a great deal. It’s just that they lack the ability or the education to be able to interact here. Rest assured that you are held in high esteem by the downtrodden for your beliefs.
Nandri.
P.S. I believe Jibby is taking UMNO/BN down shit creek without a paddle with his latest display of stupidity. His tractable attitude is a godsend for the conniving biawak at Komtar. TDM would probably give anything to kick Jibby out on his ass.
Thanks. Good to know that my blog is known to lower income Indians.
Ms H. Politics and business are the same in some ways. There is no book to tell you how to be successful. But there are thousands of books which claim to be for business management or political philosophy.
By chance, I noticed you want to have a rest from the ding-dong of Malaysian politics. You were inspired in the past to create this public-service Blog which is fast becoming an icon.
YOU SHOULD CREATE A LOVE-HATE INDEX FOR THIS BLOG. THE REASON WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT PLEASED WITH YOU IS BECAUSE YOUR BLOG IS ONE OF THE FEW EFFECTIVE ONES WHICH PUBLISH THE TRUTH, SUPPORTED BY FACTS.
If this Blog is ineffective, no one cares. Then, you should be worried. But as it is, the Blog is very successful and attracted all sorts of people.
Please remember sometimes a person has to have a thick skin in the face of all sorts of comments for different reasons, jealousy, etc.etc. Whatever it is, your program seems very tight. I suggest you only do things when you are in the mood and not comply to a set time-table, like me.
Relax all of you in Helen`s blog readers… Wait till Helen runs amok and the time will cometh soon!
LOL.
Truly. I’m trying to take a back seat and watch the political circus from the ringside. What I see is the relentless downward spiral where nobody seems able to arrest the momentum.
Well, if it results in a zombie apocalypse, don’t worry we are safe.
http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/mkon4c/key-and-peele-white-zombies
Normally after reading the political blogs on the web especially from the dapsters, i would watch video clips from comedy central to de-stress. You should try it sometime, cause I find the comedy to be applicable to our current political situation.
My current approach is “give them enough rope and they will hang themselves”. I believe the silent majority has had it up to here with them.
Ms H. Take heart ! They don’t last ! Because they grow tired and old too ! Faster ! See Singapore style self-serving politicians in Selangor now !
re: “Because they grow tired and old too ! Faster !”
Chinese politicians grow rounder and rounder so fast.
Is Hannah Yeoh preggers? Or is she just a fatso? Even wearing baju kurung could not hide her expanding tummy. Now with her increased wages, she can afford to buy more food to gorge and soon she will resort to wearing a burqa! More Islamic to blind PAS ustaz and ustazah, hehehe!
All the best in whatever you do, thank you and will miss you very much….
I’m still here lah :)
I’m just refraining from taking on my shoulders the burden of doing all the tedious write-ups. Primarily because the political developments are too depressing to contemplate.
Like I’ve said about reformatting, I’m gonna upload photos and caption with a one liner.
Readers are welcome to contribute. You all comment lah. Basically, the vehicle is still chugging along. Just that other people are welcome to take turns to relieve the driver at the wheel.
Re It appears the Chinese are convinced that killing Umno will effectively put an end to racism in Malaysia.
Ah ha ha ha !!!
This is too simplistic. While I admit that there’s racism emanating from Umno from time to time, with the rise of Malaysian First, you will be subjected to far worst racism.
A conversation between a Malaysian First and the Average Joe.
Malaysian First : Are you Malaysian First or not ?
Average Joe : I m a Malaysian, Chinese ancestry.
MF : I ask you again, Malaysian First or not ?
AJ : I m Malaysian lah. Why must be first or not ? We are all Malaysian.
MF : You Chinese ?
AJ : Of course lah. I told you already. Malaysian citizen, Chinese ancestry. Don’t understand.
MF : So you Chinese first ?
AJ : Malaysian, Chinese, why are you so obsessed with this Malaysian First or not first ?
MF : This is Malaysia ! No Malay. No Chinese. No Indian. No lain-lain.
AJ : Huh ?
MF : You balik Tongsan !
AJ : Apa ni ?
Ah ha ha ha !!!
Mungkin tiba masanya untuk anda berehat Helen tapi saya harapkan ia tidaklah selama-lamanya. Anda telah berkhidmat melaporkan data sebenarnya dan melakukan analisis tanpa henti sebelum dan selepas PRU13. Berehat dan lapangkan fikiran anda. Sekali sekalaa, go ahead rain the wrath of Helen on them ;)
:Dsarah
Thanks.
re: My blogging during the election
They started the DDoS attacks on my blog beginning the last week of April.
April 27: “Updated 6.55pm: It’s beginning to be impossible to access my blog. The intensity of the interruptions have been stepped up!”
April 28: “I’m still having connectivity problems (see screenshot below). My apology for the delay in approving all your comments.”
April 29: “My blog is still under attack (see screenshot below). Sorry if readers are inconvenienced by the difficulty in connecting but, please, don’t let the SuperCyber Bullies win through keeping you away.”
April 30: “Blog saya masih lagi mengalami gangguan sambungan talian.”
April 30: “Serangan ke atas blog saya masih berterusan.”
May 1: “Serangan ke atas blog saya masih berterusan”
May 2: “The continued DDOS attack on my blog.”
May 2: “My blog is still under DDOS attack. I’m personally also under attack (harassment and character assassination) from the DAP SuperCyber Bully network which is intertwined with the Star staff.”
May 3: “My blog remains under attack today. For the past 6 years, The Star has sided with the cyber aggressors instead of with the victims.”
May 4: “The attack on my blog has intensified! The DDOS attacks have put a huge drag on my pace of work. Below is a screenshot of the posting that I’m presently working on. As you can read in the pink message box, I have ‘lost connection with the server, and saving has been disabled’.
“This has happened intermittently since the first day of the attack but today my connectivity is more often Off than On, and the recurrence is a lot in frequency. In fact, it’s so bad that even typing, just to get the letters of the alphabet into WordPress, is going at a snail’s pace.
“Hence the interruption is tremendous. Which also means your comments will be slow to be moderated, that is if you can manage to leave them. I’ve received several complaints about readers having difficulty in doing so.”
May 5: Election Day and the attacks begin to taper off.
That’s what “they” do to people who criticize the Beloved Party.
Dear Helen,
No need to stop.. just manage your time. I’m suggest you just throw the topic and let us discussing without any tense..
Jadilah tuan rumah yang membenarkan tetamunya berbincang sesama sendiri dengan bebas tanpa perlu anda menyediakan makanan, minuman dan keselesaan kepada tetamu. Rumah anda ini sudah cukup sesuai dan yang penting, ianya memberi munafaat..
re: “I’m suggest you just throw the topic and let us discussing”
Setuju dengan cadangan Ibni Ismail. Sebenarnya saya pun sudah keberatan hendak menulis.
Nasib baik you pandai…guna perkataan keberatan instead of malas…you, ‘aku cina’ mana boleh malas…kat Malaysia melayu saja yang malas!
You are one of honest bloggers. I’m gonna miss your writings here :(
May peace be with you and all the best, sis!
Thank you.
Dear Helen,
I am quite surprise by this post. I think your blog is the most honourable intelligent blog out there. You can decipher and articulate views very well better than others. You counter arguments with patience and fact. You dug deeper than anyone else and exposed the truth.
For that you’ve totally earned my respect. The two top writers/journalists in Malaysia for me are you and Jocelyn Tan. Whenever i can I will try to read what you and jocelyn wrote.
I think I can understand how you feel. Of late I feel somewhat tired and exasperated by the government’s inability to counter and react. I don’t earn my living on blogging and sometimes wonder whether its worth the effort. But I always think that if its not done, the idealism and values we share and practice will be steamrolled by these determined crooked evangelistas. This is what I fear and try to put a check whenever i can on the “rubbish” spin they poison our malaysians.
To me, you are a thought leader. You provide views which are reasoned and substantiated that are not articulated elsewhere. That by itself earns you respect by even professionals. And when you see pr supporters giving respect to your views, you know where you stand. Among the great influential writer and thinker in Malaysia.
It will certainly be a step backward towards achieving matured democracy. Without you we will have banal unintelligent discourse in the social media. This saddens me and wish you would continue. In any event I thank you for all the write you’ve publish. Its certainly been a joy and thought provoking read.
Thanks Ellese. I hope the commenters will continue to use this space.
Unfortunately, I personally need to concentrate on my day job like all other makan gaji Malaysians.
re: “For that you’ve totally earned my respect. The two top writers/journalists in Malaysia for me are you and Jocelyn Tan. Whenever i can I will try to read what you and jocelyn wrote.”
I always make it a point to read Jos too. No wonder Hannah and the hatchet men keep sticking their poisonous stilettos in our back.
Gonna miss your writings for now. Your writings are always attractable to me and I can spend a long time to read it passage by passage. You deserve it for break. Take care for your body as your health is important.
Reply to Helen Ang # 74
Re:” Can you provide any concrete suggestions on how the losing party (Umno) might confront the PIS of the victorious one (DAP)?”
Why should I carry water for UMNO when I sure as hell don’t for the DAP?
Re:” I and some of my regulars are able to successfully present reasoned views (as you have acknowledged) because our forum comprises reasonable people. I and those of my regulars who are reasonable people will not be able to impose civility in the discourses that are held at other venues.”
What exactly is your complaint here ? The internet is dominated by echo chambers whose participants think they are reasonable folk. Civility can never be imposed.
Re;” As a first experiment, why don’t you try to prevent the ‘violent’ ones from dominating the reader responses to any of Commander Thayaparan’s articles in Malaysiakini or in any mK articles on Waythamoorthy / Hindraf. If you are able to make any headway, do come back and let us know.”
Huh, I have already said that Mkini is a cesspool of Opposition propaganda and an echo chamber of no real worth. What purpose does this little experiment serve? As it is Hindraf supporters are in a ferocious battle with certain regular contributors, which admittedly points to an open forum. I never once said speech should be curtailed unlike some here who wistfully pine for the days when the media was clamped.
Re;” If it were not for the rise and rise of the evangelistas, there would not be the corresponding rise and rise of the Muslim NGOs since the first round of the Allah dispute. I’m aware that Muslim NGOs have been rising and rising since the 1970s but we’re talking about a specific type like Isma (which is different from the earlier ones in that Isma is political and contests Parliament and DUN seats). Also I’m making the connection between the rise and specific events, such as the anti-Christian use of Allah coalition, anti-apostasy, anti-Comanggo.”
As I have argued before what exactly is the problem with this. As long as ISMA and any other NGO does not resort to violence to achieve their agenda or the State sanctions any groups who threaten or promote violence, what difference does it make. If ISMA is a legitimate democratic party why shouldn’t they participate in the political process ? They have every right to be anti whatever they want as long as they remain nonviolent. If they choose to be violent than it is the obligation of the State to sanction them.
Now you are saying that we should fear these Islamists and their rise is because of the Evangelists. The latter may be true but unless you are saying that the Establishment is in cahoots with them and will participate in the violence against Non Muslims, what is the point of harping on the former?
Re:” You argue that you are not convinced that Isma et al are gaining traction. On the other hand, some of us would argue to the contrary and our arguments will be far more convincing. We can point to their membership numbers, their funding (e.g. if they own their own HQ building, number of seminars/campaigns) they carry out, and the amount of votes that Isma obtained in GE13.”
I would like to know where they get their funding but then again, considering that I do not consider their performance in the past election any to be worried about, the point remains that as long as they work within the democratic process, they should be allowed to play the game.
Re:” What are your arguments to show that Isma is not influential?”
Their performance in the last election which you seem to think means they are influential. I still have not figured out if they are proxies for certain factions within UMNO but like I said before, the manner in which they campaign in the next elections will reveal all.
Re:” Earlier vis-a-vis DAP and Umno PISsing each other, you implied that Umno is failing to maintain a functional democracy.”
So what’s your point ? Saying we are not a democracy and saying UMNO is falling to maintain a functional democracy are two separate things.
Hell I think Obama is not maintaining a functional democracy and he’s the leader of the supposed Free World.
Re:” But I’m not complaining anymore about BN losing the propaganda war. I’ve already announced that I shall be withdrawing from political writing, remember. If I don’t write, then you obviously won’t hear me complaining in future.”
Come on –lah Helen. I meant on this exchange.
Re:” So if you’re so sure that the naysayers are wrong about the possibility of the churches getting attacked again, why are you complaining so much about the Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers whom you (and AC-DC) allege are lurking in my blog?”
Who said I was complaining ? Can’t speak for AC-DC but I was addressing a point. Heck, I’m for any sort who wants to lurk on your blog. On this very exchange, I make it clear that everyone should have a say.
Re:” I’ve already said to you: Have you come across any posting in my blog where I preach like Kit Siang and Guan Eng about Democracy? You are like someone who keeps asking what brand of cigarette I like when I’ve never indicated that I’m a smoker.”
You don’t have to preach about democracy but my question was if you believe that political parties should abide by the democratic process and principles or should we just capitulate to groups who threaten us with violence. So by your rather dodgy analogy, can I assume that you do not believe in democracy ?
Re;” It seems to me that you’re the one who’s saying that people who support BN are fascists. I, on the other hand, have consistently described my BN-supporting readers as the middle ground who are reasonable folks. That is why we are able to engage in civil discourse here which we will most certainly not be able to engage in the Malaysiakini or TMI echo chamber.”
Again, my response was in relation to your comments about not preaching democracy. Again you evade the question with this aside. Engaging in civil discourse amongst people who share the same views is not a problem. It is when people do not share your view, that’s when it is difficult to maintain civility.
Re;” If the evangelists are winning the war it is because of sentiments like the above.”
And what sentiments is that ? That free speech sometimes means people group around engaging in confirmation bias ? That people have the right to be anti-anything as long as they are non-violent?
Re;” How much more patience do you expect the Muslims to exhibit in the face of the ‘Allah’ theft?”
A word cannot be stolen. In addition, Pas supporters don’t seem so riled up about it. PR Muslims don’t seem so riled up about it. Oh wait, does this mean they are not true Muslims ?
Re:” So are we a functional democratic society? The ones using words to attack are the evangelistas and the Dapsters. The ones under verbal attack are the Muslims. (I would say this is the case wrt the ‘Allah’ dispute.) when the Muslims were unsuccessful in fending off the verbal attacks, some of them resorted to firebombing churches, and as you keep reminding us, threats of violence.
That is the nature of democracy. When you lose the battle of words and resort to violence, then you are some kind of fascist. Why not make it easy. Why not just suspend all elections and rule of law and allow people who resort to violence to lead us.
You want to make the claim that democracy is messy. I agree with you. You got a better alternative than capitulating to people who impose their will because of violence, I’m willing to hear it.
Re:” Are the evangelistas and the Dapsters functionally democratic? They are required to be, if we’re going to play by your rules of ‘No Violence’/’No Threats of Violence’.”
Please cite an example where the DAP has threatened violence. I know their supporters make all sorts of statements but if they threaten violence, the State should come down on them as they should any supporter who threatens violence.
Re:” Otherwise the two sides will not be playing the same game. It’s like pitting rugby players against ping-pong players and putting both teams on the cricket pitch, and telling them, “Okay, the match begins”.”
Nobody is stopping Establishment partisans from making credible arguments or viciously attacking their opponents. You are just sore that they are the losing the propaganda war.
Re;” As much a non-sequitur as your insistence on offering me the Democracy brand cigarette when my blog is a No Smoking zone.”
So basically you are saying that this blog does not believe in the democratic process ?
Re;” You know people are sensitive about “anjing” and “kucing (kurap)” allusions. Hanging around OYT too much is rubbing off on you.”
People are sensitive about a lot of things but I was just using the same words of attack as “they” would. Hell, you could make the argument that I talk about the Chinese the way how I do because of the rhetoric of some of your posters on this blog rubbing off on me.
Re;” And secondly, if I believe that non Malays should just keep quiet, then why in the world would I blog about the cow slaughter and the Seri Pristana cases which the DAP (with the exception of one or two of their Hindu Indians) have keep deathly silent over? I might as well have keep as quiet as the evangelistas over these issues”
Hey, I made the same point. If you look back on my reply I questioned why you keep pushing this fear narrative which is why I brought up the Indian issue. You keep saying that the “Malays” will run amok because of the Evangelists and remain evasive when confronted by the fact that this is directly in opposition with democratic principles. Like I keep saying when confronted with this argument :
Why not just suspend elections ?
Re:” How do you know that the mainstream Muslim community is not angry about the Allah issue? You think that it is only the Muslim fringe that is angry about the Allah issue?”
Because we are not in the midst of a religious slaughter ? That’s the first hint. And I did not say they were not angry, I said they were not engulfed in rage.
Re:” Have you forgotten that Pope Francis barely a week ago voiced his concern that the Middle East will be denuded of Christians?”
Yeah and I have not forgotten that Najib met with the Pope and the reality is that Malaysia for all the fear polemics is not the terrain that many in the Establishment would want when it comes to race and religious relations.
So that we’re not diverted into the scenic, let me recap how this thread started in the first place.
Conrad commented @ Nov 30 at 7:50 am
Conrad thinks that many of the commenters here display extreme fascist right wing tendencies.
Re: “What exactly is your complaint here? The internet is dominated by echo chambers whose participants think they are reasonable folk. Civility can never be imposed.”
Likewise, what exactly is your complaint about my allegedly “extreme fascist right wing” commenters?
If you acknowledge that civility can never be imposed, then there’s no cause for you to complain about their alleged incivility (going by your accusation of “fascism” against them) since there is no indication that any hostility will translate into violence. If it could, the “security apparatus” will be hauling me up, as you suggested in your earlier comment (not specific to me, but about maintaining security in general).
Re: “As I have argued before what exactly is the problem with this. As long as ISMA and any other NGO does not resort to violence to achieve their agenda or the State sanctions any groups who threaten or promote violence, what difference does it make.”
If you have no problem with Isma, then why do you have a problem with the “many of the commenters” here whom you allege display “extreme fascist right wing” tendencies.
Re: “If ISMA is a legitimate democratic party why shouldn’t they participate in the political process ? They have every right to be anti whatever they want as long as they remain nonviolent.”
Precisely. I’ve written that Isma is articulate, intelligent and influential. So I sound like I am someone who is trying to impede them from participating in the political process?
RE: “Now you are saying that we should fear these Islamists and their rise is because of the Evangelists.”
Let me be precise. I’ve said that the evangelistas are too much. I also said that Umno and PAS are not up to the job of curtailing the evangelistas. However, I believe that Isma (or Zul Noordin and his ilk) is up to the task of containing the evangelistas.
Re: “The latter may be true but unless you are saying that the Establishment is in cahoots with them and will participate in the violence against Non Muslims, what is the point of harping on the former?”
Hullo! Since when have I ever said that the establishment is in cahoots? I’ve always maintained (and this in the face of heckling by the Dapsters) that the anger, i.e. firebombings, is not an Umno conspiracy like what the Dapsters allege but a groundswell of public Muslim anger cutting across the board.
Re: “the point remains that as long as they work within the democratic process, they should be allowed to play the game.”
Don’t fudge the point Conrad. Nobody here ever said anything about stopping Isma from playing the political game. Quite to the contrary, we’re most interested in how Isma is going to play the game.
The point is whether Isma is influential or not. I’ve said that they are, and they will be as influential in GE14 like how Hindraf was influential in GE12. You’re the one deliberately sidestepping the challenge to provide some indicators as to why you believe that Isma has no influence?
Go on, tell us. Why do you insist that they’re not influential?
Re: “So what’s your point ? Saying we are not a democracy and saying UMNO is falling to maintain a functional democracy are two separate things.”
You wrote: “If someone is going to be violent because they lose a political confrontation or threaten to do so if they lose, in a functional democracy, the security apparatus will take action.”
So what is your point? Will the police take action or not against someone / some group who is threatening violence? Answer this first so that we can get the premise straight without diverting into “Democracy” which you keep bringing up.
Re: “why are you complaining so much about the Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers whom you (and AC-DC) allege are lurking in my blog?” / “Who said I was complaining ?”
Okay, to restate the point — Conrad believes that many commenters lurking here are Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers but he is neutral about their (‘your’) presence due to his firm belief in the freedom of association afforded by Democracy.
I repeat: Conrad does not complain about the Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers even though he says there are too many of you here making this blog to be perceived as a “toxic dump” by the oppo supporters.
Re: “It is when people do not share your view, that’s when it is difficult to maintain civility.”
On the contrary, they do not share my views. I’m sure you can still recall how many times I’ve been to-ing and fro-ing with commenters who do not share my view about (“illegal”) Hindu temples and Thaipusam (comparing apples with coconuts), about Chinese schools, and about slaughtering cows in school.
But despite what you say — “Engaging in civil discourse amongst people who share the same views is not a problem. It is when people do not share your view, that’s when it is difficult to maintain civility” — and despite the difficulty, civility has been maintained.
Re: “If the evangelists are winning the war it is because of sentiments like the above.” / “And what sentiments is that?”
Please backtrack upthread. The sentence “If the evangelists are winning the war it is because of sentiments like the above” was uttered by you. Therefore the question “”And what sentiments is that?” should rightly be explicated by you.
RE: “A word cannot be stolen. In addition, Pas supporters don’t seem so riled up about it. PR Muslims don’t seem so riled up about it. Oh wait, does this mean they are not true Muslims?”
I’ll put up this as a discussion topic.
re: “Please cite an example where the DAP has threatened violence. I know their supporters make all sorts of statements but if they threaten violence, the State should come down on them as they should any supporter who threatens violence.”
I do not say that DAP threatens violence. I said that DAP is spreading hate and poison.
Re: “Nobody is stopping Establishment partisans from making credible arguments or viciously attacking their opponents. You are just sore that they are the losing the propaganda war.”
Hahaha. Yes I AM INDEED sore that BN is losing the propaganda war. I’m a writer whose writings cannot appear in any English portals when other writers, say Miriam Mokhtar as one example, comparably can have their articles published across multiple platforms.
Or even when it’s not me that is writing but someone writing about me, you say for yourself how they operated. Che Sapienze throws the bait about how “I turned” and the readers pick up the ball and finish the hatchet job.
So yes, I’m willing to admit I’m sore at the BN for ceding all corners of English cyberspace to the Dapsters and the evangelistas.
Re: “You keep saying that the ‘Malays’ will run amok because of the Evangelists and remain evasive when confronted by the fact that this is directly in opposition with democratic principles.”
Malaysia was a democratic country in 1969. In fact, back then Malaysia was more democratic than it is today — they had greater political freedom then so much so that the oppo caused a tsunami winning Perak, Penang, Kelantan and a dead heat in Selangor. That didn’t stop the May 13 amok, did it?
Re: “Because we are not in the midst of a religious slaughter”
So no slaughter means no rage lah, is it?
Re;” So that we’re not diverted into the scenic, let me recap how this thread started in the first place.”
Huh ? You were the one who cannot seem to get a handle on the issue, throwing in everything and the kitchen sink into the discussion.
Re:” Likewise, what exactly is your complaint about my allegedly “extreme fascist right wing” commenters?”
Could you link me to any of my post where I complained? Hell I merely agreed with AC-DC and you went on all how your poster are all civil –like.
Re” If you acknowledge that civility can never be imposed, then there’s no cause for you to complain about their alleged incivility (going by your accusation of “fascism” against them) since there is no indication that any hostility will translate into violence. If it could, the “security apparatus” will be hauling me up, as you suggested in your earlier comment (not specific to me, but about maintaining security in general).”
Again why all this forked tongue nonsense ? Where the did I complain about anything ? You were the one who was going on and on and on about how the Evangelists dominate the discourse online and of how you and your people can’t seem to get a word in places which were PR echo chambers.
Going on about how the poor Malays can’t win the rhetoric war so who’s to blame them for reacting violently. Then in a forked tongue manner you conflate a point about online discourse, with another point about how the System should react to violent threats.
For someone who referenced the “truth” in your original post, you sure have a funny way of practicing what you preach.
Re;” If you have no problem with Isma, then why do you have a problem with the “many of the commenters” here whom you allege display “extreme fascist right wing” tendencies.”
Where did I say I have a problem with “many of the commenters here” ? Seriously, as someone who values the truth, why don’t you point me to any line of my posts, which I say as much. Go on. I dare you.
If anything, I engage with anyone who engages with me. Of course you got all butt hurt when I characterized some of your commenters as extremist. Well sorry about that, but when posters advocate the kind of nonsense they do, they get called extremist and it really does not matter to me which side of the political divide gets called out.
Re;” Precisely. I’ve written that Isma is articulate, intelligent and influential. So I sound like I am someone who is trying to impede them from participating in the political process?”
Again with the putar belit. You were going on with your fear polemic of how the rise of Islamic groups were tied to the rise of the evangelists. My reply was its part of the democratic process. Now here you are implying something very different from post.
Fuck this cherry picking nonsense. And to think of how you go on about how slick and devious the Dapsters are.
Re;” Let me be precise. I’ve said that the evangelistas are too much. I also said that Umno and PAS are not up to the job of curtailing the evangelistas. However, I believe that Isma (or Zul Noordin and his ilk) is up to the task of containing the evangelistas.”
Really ? Contain how ? They have lost the propaganda war and your intelligent and articulate extremist aren’t even a political force to rival UMNO or PAS. Not to mention, “containing the evangelists” is a poor strategy since the Chinese community who vote for the DAP do not do it solely because they are Christians.
Re:” Hullo! Since when have I ever said that the establishment is in cahoots? I’ve always maintained (and this in the face of heckling by the Dapsters) that the anger, i.e. firebombings, is not an Umno conspiracy like what the Dapsters allege but a groundswell of public Muslim anger cutting across the board.”
Y’know your cherry picking is getting tedious. My original point which, you twisted…..what the hell, I’ll just play your game. When you claim that people have to fear the extremist and acknowledge that Religion and Race are the are-motivating factors of UMNO which controls the State you are implying that they are in cahoots.
Re:” Don’t fudge the point Conrad. Nobody here ever said anything about stopping Isma from playing the political game. Quite to the contrary, we’re most interested in how Isma is going to play the game.”
Neither did I but since you are twisting words and cherry picking, I know it is you who prefer if it the DAP is locked away and that groups such as Isma run riot.
Re;” The point is whether Isma is influential or not. I’ve said that they are, and they will be as influential in GE14 like how Hindraf was influential in GE12. You’re the one deliberately sidestepping the challenge to provide some indicators as to why you believe that Isma has no influence?’
What indicators have you provided beyond claims that their loss amounted to some sort of ground swell in the Malay polity. Hell Zul Noordin did better than his predecessor but means very little when it comes to influence.
Re;” So what is your point? Will the police take action or not against someone / some group who is threatening violence? Answer this first so that we can get the premise straight without diverting into “Democracy” which you keep bringing up.”
Well duh. Of course the police should take action against groups threatening violence. So now what is your stand against groups threatening violence if they lose the political/social discourse war.
Are you going to concede that anyone threatening violence should be sanctioned? Why don’t you answer this question?
Re;” Okay, to restate the point — Conrad believes that many commenters lurking here are Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers but he is neutral about their (‘your’) presence due to his firm belief in the freedom of association afforded by Democracy.”
What are you attempting to do? Get a lynch mob organized. Earlier on in my comments about Che’s piece, I accused him of doing the same thing. All you partisans are the same. Like I said, I will talk to anyone who engages with me and I will never ask that person to be sanctioned for his or her beliefs simply because I do not agree with them. And yes it is because I hold democratic principles sacrosanct that I adhere to this.
Re ;”I repeat: Conrad does not complain about the Muslim extremists and Malay ultra right wingers even though he says there are too many of you here making this blog to be perceived as a “toxic dump” by the oppo supporters.”
More cherry picking putar belit. Actually what I said that PR partisans think this blog is toxic wrt to your comments that this place was civil and theirs toxic.
Re:” On the contrary, they do not share my views. I’m sure you can still recall how many times I’ve been to-ing and fro-ing with commenters who do not share my view about (“illegal”) Hindu temples and Thaipusam (comparing apples with coconuts), about Chinese schools, and about slaughtering cows in school.”
Sure but most of the time they share your views. Unless you are claiming that the majority of threads here the commenters disagree with you, your politics and each others politics. Are you really making that claim ?
Re;” But despite what you say — “Engaging in civil discourse amongst people who share the same views is not a problem. It is when people do not share your view, that’s when it is difficult to maintain civility” — and despite the difficulty, civility has been maintained.”
And I’ll say it again. Are you claiming that the majority of posters here do not agree with you on core issues and fight amongst themselves because they have differing political stances? Are you really claiming that?
Re:” Please backtrack upthread. The sentence “If the evangelists are winning the war it is because of sentiments like the above” was uttered by you. Therefore the question “”And what sentiments is that?” should rightly be explicated by you.”
No, I think you should read the post again. Here is what you said and ended it with my quote :
“It seems to me that you’re the one who’s saying that people who support BN are fascists. I, on the other hand, have consistently described my BN-supporting readers as the middle ground who are reasonable folks. That is why we are able to engage in civil discourse here which we will most certainly not be able to engage in the Malaysiakini or TMI echo chamber.”
Re;” I do not say that DAP threatens violence. I said that DAP is spreading hate and poison.”
Good you concede this. Now what do we do with people who threaten violence if they lose the rhetoric game?
Re:” Hahaha. Yes I AM INDEED sore that BN is losing the propaganda war. I’m a writer whose writings cannot appear in any English portals when other writers, say Miriam Mokhtar as one example, comparably can have their articles published across multiple platforms.”
Honestly I’m not interested in your feud with the alternative media unless it gets in the way of your arguments. It seems to have in this particular discussion. The cherry picking and twisting of words. You made a stand and now, you have to live with the consequences. I know many people in Oppositional politics who suffered the same fate and some who still suffer that fate because they speak truth to power, be it BN or PR.
Re;” Or even when it’s not me that is writing but someone writing about me, you say for yourself how they operated. Che Sapienze throws the bait about how “I turned” and the readers pick up the ball and finish the hatchet job.”
You seem to be wielding that hatchet pretty well yourself in this discussion. I don’t know maybe you are burnt out but I am surprised at the turn this discussion has taken.
Re:” Malaysia was a democratic country in 1969. In fact, back then Malaysia was more democratic than it is today — they had greater political freedom then so much so that the oppo caused a tsunami winning Perak, Penang, Kelantan and a dead heat in Selangor. That didn’t stop the May 13 amok, did it?”
And look how far we have come. The Opposition had a political tsunami and gained control of a few states including Penang and the cash cow Selangor. We did not wake up to another May 13 even though we have had a cow head protests, fire bombings, the Allah controversy and the Chinese tsunami. Nobody running amok but some people on the internet.
Re:” So no slaughter means no rage lah, is it?”
No-lah slaughter means no body on the streets. Everybody is
angry for different reasons but nobody even though some may wish it is rage filled enough to kill.
Just listen to yourself Conrad. You’ve lost it, really.
Read aloud all you’ve written above, open your ears, and allow it seep into your brain where hopefully your tiresome rant can be reprocessed.
Fuh! One hell of a ride there!
Quote: “Conrad, do you hear me preaching democracy here in my blog? Do I rattle on and on about “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”?”
Excuse my intrusion, I really have to ask and get it out once and for all. Normally just because one does not harp on something, it does not mean by default one does not believe in it. In your case, can I ask then what do you believe in? (if not democracy, liberty etc)
I’ve read many pro-BN and those at the far right of the Islamic spectrum blogs, heck, even some of your commenters (thought I know you would beg to differ) for that matter, so I am no stranger to profanities and indictment directed at Christians/Christianity. But it has never bothered me much. It is sorta expected.
If Ridhuan Tee bashes Christianity, I can understand. Or any Muslim for that matter. But for an individual, not affected by the usual allegiance to a certain belief like yourself, take to one side, as opposed to the usual middle ‘not my business’ stance, I naturally get curious.
Having said that, I understand it is within your absolute right to choose not to answer.
Simple. In my opinion, the evangelistas are trying to steal ‘Allah’.
And the way they’ve been twisting and turning (putar-belit) around the argument on why Christians have equal right to the word is like
the behaviour of Alivi in their affidavit insisting that Bak Kut Teh is not pork,
and like Hannah Yeoh deflecting the criticism on her pay rise by invoking “private jets”, “diamond (rings)” and declaring “My 2 babies have only toys and not involved in any companies doing business with govt“. It is so manipulative to drag in your “2 babies” and their toys when it is your RM20k pay rise that is being questioned.
I do not like this display of Christian putar-belit.
I’ve read a lot of Muslim explanations. The Islamic scholars / Islamic bureaucrats have been very earnestly and sincerely explaining to the Christians why Allah is Allah and not their triune God,
and all these Muslim arguments are mocked in the same way that the Muslims (who believe Alvivi were being provocative and insulting) are mocked as too sensitive and not smart enough to realise that Bak Ku Teh is pork.
I find the evangelista behaviour to be Alvivian (adjective, describing people who can insist that BKT is not pork, and Allah is not necessarily who the Muslims think He is).
Helen,
Many of my Chinese friends were simply astonished when I told them that the saga “Allah’ is not UMNO creation. I told them off that if they genuinely want to know how islam views on it, they must stop looking it in malaysiakini or vernacular newspapers.
Quote: “Simple. In my opinion, the evangelistas are trying to steal ‘Allah’.”
You are entitled to your opinion, but, one would assume you would have faith Islam will be adequately protected along with all the perks that comes with what you call ‘status quo’ earlier when it comes to the legal aspect.
Quote: “I’ve read a lot of Muslim explanations. The Islamic scholars / Islamic bureaucrats have been very earnestly and sincerely explaining to the Christians why Allah is Allah and not their triune God, …are mocked as too sensitive and not smart enough to realise that Bak Ku Teh is pork.”
Non-legal viewpoint, everything goes. It’s the usual you say, I say. But you taking sides merely meant you have come to a decision. Your decision is your right to an opinion. The same right accorded to those who hold opposing views.
Quote: “I find the evangelista behaviour to be Alvivian (adjective, describing people who can insist that BKT is not pork, and Allah is not necessarily who the Muslims think He is).”
Why the constant reference to the faith of the person? If you say someone is a hypocrite, then let it be known it is the individual who stand accused of the act. If faith is used as a tool (as if it is only prevalent in Christianity, well,..) it is only fair condemnation should be on the person, not the faith. The law holds the shooter responsible, not the gun.
re: “one would assume you would have faith Islam will be adequately protected along with all the perks that comes with what you call ‘status quo’ earlier when it comes to the legal aspect.”
Watch this video. The Malays are the ones in uniform and supposedly holding the authority. The Chinese man is DAP’s Wong Tack. See who is bullying whom.
http://www.frequency.com/video/wong-tack-tunjuk-ajar-kakitangan-dbkl-di/120015881/-/5-333
Quote: “The same right accorded to those who hold opposing views.”
But not for matters coming under the purview of the most recent Court of Appeal decision and the Sultan (of Selangor’s) titah.
Quote: “I find the evangelista behaviour to be Alvivian (adjective, describing people who can insist that BKT is not pork, and Allah is not necessarily who the Muslims think He is).”
Why the constant reference to the faith of the person? If you say someone is a hypocrite, then let it be known it is the individual who stand accused of the act. If faith is used as a tool (as if it is only prevalent in Christianity, well,..) it is only fair condemnation should be on the person, not the faith. The law holds the shooter responsible, not the gun.
Because the Hindus and the Buddhists have not been attempting to steal Allah. Only the Christians have. So it is matter of the individual’s faith.
Same thing applies, another example. A Buddhist, and certainly not a Hindu, headmaster would not be complicit in allowing the slaughter of a cow in school.
re: “The law holds the shooter responsible, not the gun.”
Agree that the gun is an inanimate object but some people are more prone to be shooters and they can be profiled. For example, a disabled man (handicapped in the use of his arms) is not likely to be a shooter.
It is possible for an 85-year-old grandma to be a shooter but not likely.
Between someone living Gong Badak and someone living in Little Rock, Arkansas, it is more likely that the Little Rocker is a shooter (someone with access to a gun rather than our Pakcik in Gong Badak).
In a similar vein, the probability of Alvivian behaviour to be found in evangelistas is much, much higher than its probability to be found among the adherents of other faiths.
Raja Petra thinks “Christians are the most hypocritical people on earth”.
I’m not claiming that RPK’s opinion is scientific fact or irrefutable but it does indicare that some people do view Christians in this light.
What is fact is the millennia-long war between Muslims and Christians. The Quran has some verse warning the umat Islam against placing their trust in Christians.
In the matter of the Allah dispute, most of the putar-belit has come from the Christians. This can be verified because some of them speak in the name of their office (churches, Christian centres) or their mission (missionaries, motivational speakers).
TYPO
too sensitive and not smart enough to realise that Bak Kut Teh is ‘not’ pork.
Quote: “Raja Petra thinks “Christians are the most hypocritical people on earth”.
Firstly, why bring in RPK as some sort of Christian evaluation expert? If you value his views, here’s one from 2009 on the Allah issue and the hypocrisy of the Muslims. Given RPK is a Muslim, I‘ll give more credence to his Muslim evaluation bit over Christianity. Having said that, I’ve no idea if his 2009 view still stands.. I can’t keep up.
Quote: “But not for matters coming under the purview of the most recent Court of Appeal decision and the Sultan (of Selangor’s) titah.”
By the law of the land, the Sultan had his say. Would this sway anyone’s personal perception? And we are talking about the issue of faith, which is the intangible and hinges on personal conviction and operates on the realm outside the constraints of the law.
Quote: “Because the Hindus and the Buddhists have not been attempting to steal Allah. Only the Christians have. So it is matter of the individual’s faith.”
C’mon Helen, your reply is absurd. Hinduism and Buddhism don’t share verses from the Torah/ Old Testament/Quran and claim their respective faith begins with a convenant between God and Abraham(father of Israel). The very thought of the Almighty can be stolen or lay claim by mere mortals like some loot is degrading.
Quote: “Same thing applies, another example. A Buddhist, and certainly not a Hindu, headmaster would not be complicit in allowing the slaughter of a cow in school.”
You need more than ‘I say so’ to make this argument.
Quote: “Agree that the gun is an inanimate object but some people are more prone to be shooters and they can be profiled. For example, a disabled man (handicapped in the use of his arms) is not likely to be a shooter. It is possible for an 85-year-old grandma to be a shooter but not likely.”
You profile the person, not the weapon. Some will be more likely to use their religion as tool, you profile the person. You don’t keep picking on the religion
Edit to add
RPK 2009 link
http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/18712/84/
Quote: “Watch this video. The Malays are the ones in uniform and supposedly holding the authority. The Chinese man is DAP’s Wong Tack. See who is bullying whom.”
If there is anything to be seen in the video, it is an opportunist getting his few minutes of fame trying to score political points in front of an audience. The political script Wong Tak is sticking to, is Rakyat vs Establishment. The fact you read this as Chinese Christian vs Muslim (policeman) points to a bigger underlying problem with our overwhelming one-raced domination of the civil service. Heck, since when a law enforcement officer in the course of duty is distinguished by his faith/color? Your so-called Christian bullying Malay authority example would have dissipated in smoke had PDRM decide to send an Indian or a Chinese in uniform to shoo Wong Tak.
re: “You profile the person, not the weapon. Some will be more likely to use their religion as tool, you profile the person. You don’t keep picking on the religion”
Correct. I profile the person. The person is the evangelista.
The weapon is their personal brand of UBAH-UBAH ikut suka hati Christianity.
You want to be a Catholic priest, you have to study in the seminary and undergo training as a novice. But you want to be a charismatic pastor, anyone without any study or any proper training can do it.
Hannah Yeoh preaches in the various churches. She uses religion as the tool for her personality cult.
re: “You don’t keep picking on the religion”
Since when do I keep picking on the religion? Google/search in my blog and compare how many times the word ‘Christianity’ or ‘Jesus’ turns up, compared with evangelist or evangelista.
re: “Firstly, why bring in RPK as some sort of Christian evaluation expert?”
Read my statement again. I wrote, “Raja Petra thinks ‘Christians are the most hypocritical people on earth’.” Raja Petra did not say he thinks Christianity is the most hypocritical religion on earth.
RPK is profiling the shooter (Malaysian Christians), and not the tool (religion as a means in politics).
Re: “By the law of the land, the Sultan had his say. Would this sway anyone’s personal perception? And we are talking about the issue of faith, which is the intangible and hinges on personal conviction and operates on the realm outside the constraints of the law.”
You say Faith = “intangible”, “hinges on personal conviction”, “operates on the realm outside the constraints of the law”. And that is exactly how the evangelista politicians in DAP operate. They appeal to the Faith that the Chinese voters have in them.
For 2-and-1/2 years in my blog I’ve presented “tangibles” (data, statistics, facts with citations to sources) but Dapsters can dismiss all evidence with a wave of the hand, saying “nonsense!”, “absurd” and other put-down words they like use without any effort to examine the argument.
“Hinges on personal conviction” which tell them that the “Evil Bumno, Dumno, Scumno” sent a busload of foreign voters to Subang Jaya even though common sense dictates that SJ is the last place any election mastermind would want to waste phantom votes on.
And they operate “outside the constraints of the law”. The Federal Constitution is the law of the land and it stipulates that BM is the national language. So it is a simple matter of can the Dapsters respect the law of the land and respect the position of BM in the country. Nampaknya memang tak boleh.
Re: “The very thought of the Almighty can be stolen or lay claim by mere mortals like some loot is degrading.”
Yes. Describes the evangelistas, looters. Nama Tuhan orang pun dema nak kebas.
Edit to correct
The officer in the video is not a policeman but an enforcement officer from DBKL. I stand corrected but my above comment still stand.
to HH and many others like him, Malay in blue must be a policeman!
Hehe, I wonder why???
Apparently HH you don’t read much. And when you did, we already know what you are reading. When Helen argue that she had read a lot of academic explanations by the Muslims on the Allah issue. You and your kakis, would say, its not legal, merely you say, I say tit tats.
But when you had the Court of Appeal verdict, you say UMNO had flex their pengaruh on the judges. When will it ends?
You don’t drink do you?
Islam1st
Quote:”to HH and many others like him, Malay in blue must be a policeman! Hehe, I wonder why??? ”
I’ve already said it out. An overly one raced dominated ratio in our government sector is not healthy.
Quote: “Apparently HH you don’t read much. And when you did, we already know what you are reading. When Helen argue that she had read a lot of academic explanations by the Muslims on the Allah issue. You and your kakis, would say, its not legal, merely you say, I say tit tats.”
It is not about how much I read or how little. Neither is it whom is on your side or whom is not. It is about the right to disagree and accepting the right/prerogative of others to hold different opinion what from you. Affording others this latitude do not mean you are giving in or losing your stand. It merely shows you accept others with differing viewpoints.
I comment here to share my thoughts. It is not about winning arguments.
Cheers
Edit to correct
Should read:
It is about the right to disagree and accepting the right/prerogative of others to hold different opinion from you. Affording others this latitude does not mean you are giving in or losing your stand.,,,